How much is enough?

[Moon Walker]

Hey everyone, just wanting to ask a question in regarding to live in HK.

Realisticly, how much is enough, in HKD? I have one company offers about HKD45,000 a month, if I live on my own and in a reasonable apartment, how much would I have left after paying rent, food?

Thanks

[xdc9er]

Please name and shame, so we know , thats the rent right there!
X

[Moon Walker]

Noooo, u are not serious there, are you? Thats a lot of money which I will never see again...

That is what the company is offering per month is I did not make myself clear.

[Hoofharted]

He understood Moonie, you will lose half of that in rent. Get it now? Good grief why do we bother - go for it mate, it's a kings ransom :ok:

[The Messiah]

Hey Moon,

You can rent 800sq ft for about 13k HKD per month 45 min away from the action, which will leave you enough to exist but not to really "live". Food costs are similar to any big city.

[boxjockey]

For any reasonable accommodation you are looking at between 25-30K/mth in rent. If you aren't on a proper expat contract in this city, or very well paid, then you will go backwards financially.

box

[Voiceofreason]

The Messiah's about right - depends on where you want to be and what you call "reasonable". The quoted figures of $25-$30k a month would get you some place pretty big (1200-1500 sqft), but you can rent somewhere smaller for half that.

[hongkongfooey]

Food costs are similar to any big city.

Not true ! If you like chickens feet, ducks spleens, vegetabls that have been sprayed with chemicals left over from 'Nam and rice, it is one of the cheapest places on earth to eat.
Western dairy is 2-300% dearer, unpoisoned fruit and veg same, good meat is only 20% more ( but faark all variety ), fish is pretty cheap if you buy local but be careful as your mercury levels will be full scale deflection within a few years.
Depending on which study you believe Hong kong is somewhere between the most and 3rd most expensive place to live in the world ( that was recentlly )
At 45K you will be close to the lowest paid exat in HKG.
Good luck :ok:

[711]

Which is the world's most expensive city? Costs of living compared and visualised | News | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jun/30/city-costs-living)

[SMOC]

List of most expensive cities for expatriate employees (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_cities_for_expatriate_employees)

[Mr. Bloggs]

Come for the rating. Get in then get out.

If you are single and live in a shoebox you can do it but as you get older, get a girlfriend (or god forbid a Wife) and maybe have children it is not sustainable. You cannot rent a proper house for $45000 HKD a month. Schooling in Hong Kong is not cheap and can run 5-10K(or more depending on the school) per month per child

If you come for $45K, keep looking for something better as $45000 HKD a month is not sustainable long term.

In Hong Kong you need a housing/schooling package. What is your medical package, if you have one? (Gall Bladder= $80K)

Good Luck with your decision.

PS, You are not a manager fishing for the bottom line are you?:*

[Moon Walker]

Thanks for the reply guys, that 45k is the final offer, and yes, I am single but not that young, wanting to start a family or at least start settling down, so I guess I have think long term...

I understand the get in and then get out term, but how easy is it to get out? with SO time, yeh sure if thats called a rating, how much the bunk making time would count towards the next job?

It is difficult, with everyone driving down the terms and conditions, I might never have a break...

[Mr. Bloggs]

Perseverance my friend.

That is why CX invented the make believe P2X rating and not counting the entire SO time so it is hard to get out.

I would think if you were hired by CX as an S/O then apply to EK as an F/O, it would save EK the interview process. Everyone knows the CX interview process is a painful pedantic.

Good luck.

I'm assuming it's CX but I guess it could be HKA.

[flyinryan76]

So I have a question on these housing prices everyone keeps talking about. I saw the earlier post quoting 25k to 30k for a 1200 to 1500 sqf place. Prices very greatly, however, depending on location. So.... is this 25-30k range in Hong Kong island, or Kowloon? What about the islands near the main international airport there? Would a place still go for that much? More? Less? Also, how far of a drive from the airport to a decent place to shop? I'm not talking downtown Hong Kong here, just a decent sized city/area.

[Voiceofreason]

Good god this debate is whining even by PPRuNe's standards.

There are many, and I mean MANY (myself included) "expats" in Hong Kong who can and do survive on $45k a month quite happily (yes, with wife not working and with kid on the way). For many, that's quite a decent wage. To live in a big city ANYWHERE is expensive, Hong Kong is no different. $45k a month would be about GBP45,000 a year in the UK, or AUD/USD/CAD 67,500, but the main difference is tax. Take home pay on GBP45,000 in the UK would be about GBP30,000 if you're lucky. In HK it's the equivalent of over GBP40,000. Yes, living here is more expensive than living in a small town in the Western world, but on the whole, it's an exciting, vibrant place to live.

Also, let's not forget that the rates go up pretty quickly as an SO.

I'm ready for the flak, even to be labelled management, but seriously, let's try and have SOME kind of perspective. You will note that this is a bit of a bugbear of mine, so sorry for harping on!

[crwjerk]

Voiceofreason.......

You are simply providing the other side of the argument, the side which is in denial, whatever. Unless of course you are talking about 45000 in housing?????

Aussie C scalers will take home ( shoebox ) less than 50k AUD. the last thing you want to do now is convert into AUD, you'll all have aneurysms.:{

[N1 Vibes]

flyinryan76,

amazingly you can do all the shopping you need 5 minutes from the airport in a 'town' which houses 200,000+ souls. For a 1,200' apt, about 20k...

Best Regards,

N1 Vibes

[404 Titan]

Voiceofreason
Although I'm not Chinese, I'm also not an expat, and therefore admittedly have no reference point "back home" to compare cost of living.
In other words you were born in HK to expat parents and have a slanted view of what it is like being an expat in a foreign country. You are also probably comfortable living in areas of HK that most expats couldn’t. You’re also probably fluent in Cantonese as well. Hong Kong is your home. Please don’t pretend to know what it is like being an expat, what our expectations are and what it costs to be an expat in a foreign country.

[Voiceofreason]

Yes, HK is my home, but it doesn't mean I have not lived elsewhere - Australia, UK and France. I know what it's like living in other countries, and I do miss the niceties of living outside a city. BTW, no Canto for me!

So I think I have a fair appreciation for the "costs" of being an expat here - I can I shop in similar shops to many expats, buy similar products to many expats and live in a similar location to many expats, because I see them every day and work with them. Whilst I don't consider myself an expat, I know plenty who do.

In any case, I'm not trying to put myself in your shoes. I'm only trying to bring some perspective and comparisons to the table. I for one don't understand how anyone can survive in Sydney, for example, with the crazy tax rates and similar cost of living as HK. But people do and many wouldn't think twice about moving there.

I'm trying to be reasonable - cost of living in HK is high, but people who come on here and say your entire $45k salary will be spent on rent, or that $45k is not a living wage aren't really giving the whole picture.

[404 Titan]

Voiceofreason

The point is HK$10,000.00 per months housing assistance which isn’t pegged to the Hong Kong Rental Index and therefore inflation is grossly inadequate.

By the way I have property in Sydney that is in a very fashionable (expensive) area near the beach. It’s about 2500 ft² liveable area and I would be lucky to get AU$850.00 per week which even with the extremely high AU$ is about HK$31300.00 a month. My current place in Hong Kong is way out in the New Territories, 1350 ft² and is HK$33500.00.

On the point of what you may be paying for your mortgage, that isn’t even a starter for most joining the company now. 25% deposit on a flat less than HK$6,000,000.00 is a lot of coin to have to cough up.

[Voiceofreason]

True $10k for housing isn't a lot, but we're talking about a $45k package. You can get somewhere decent to live for not hideous % of that. Admittedly, to have enough left over to enjoy yourself, you wouldn't want to spend more than $15-$18k. Dare I suggest that you chose to live out in the New Territories? For the kind of money you're paying in, for example, DB (I know, I know) or even the pilot haven of South Lantau, you'd get a really pretty comfortable pad. That $15-$18k in those places would get you 1000sqft or so.

Are all banks no longer able to offer 90% mortgages now?

You SYD pad sounds pretty tidy.

[etrang]

$45,000 is not a bad salary in HK and you can live pretty well on that as a single person. Ignore the whining above and give it a go would be my advice.

[SloppyJoe]

My god, have people forgotten what this housing allowance was for? Why guys are willing to come to Hong Kong without one is beyond me, unless you are single with 0 flying hours it is crazy. You are coming here to be a professional pilot, you should not have to get by, it should not be questions as to weather you can survive or will I be able to buy the things I do back home without going bankrupt!

It is all about comparable living to attract experience. As a professional pilot for BA or VS back home I could buy a 4 bedroom house near the city and live comfortably. In Hong Kong, even WITH the expat allowance this would be hard as this sort of property is anywhere from HK$15,000,000 up to whatever you can think depending on location.

If you join without expat benefits and are an expat you will spend you WHOLE career paying off some tiny flat next to the airport, lovely place to retire once the whole 800 sq/ft are all yours!

Yes you can survive on what they are offering but why the hell would you want to. I got into this profession so I could do more than survive, why people continue to enter it is a mystery.

[Voiceofreason]

As a professional pilot for BA or VS back home I could buy a 4 bedroom house near the city and live comfortably.

Really? Have you seen the joining salaries of BA recently? Or time to command?

If you join without expat benefits and are an expat you will spend you WHOLE career paying off some tiny flat next to the airport, lovely place to retire once the whole 800 sq/ft are all yours!

Rubbish. By the time you get to captain on $130k+ if you can't afford a decent place to live you've screwed up somewhere.

Yes you can survive on what they are offering but why the hell would you want to. I got into this profession so I could do more than survive, why people continue to enter it is a mystery.

Read my post(s) again - $45k is more than survivable, and by FO, $90k+ is pretty good in anyone's book. It's definitely not what it was under expat terms, but looking at it without those tinted specs (or from the point of view of having never had that!) it's OK.

[404 Titan]

etrang

And what happens when he/she is no longer single my short sighted little friend.


Voiceofreason

What is your motivation for wanting to degrade our CofS? Be truthful. For someone that claims to be a Voice of Reason, all you really are is just a voice for selling out our profession. You seem to fail to understand that:

• Most expats couldn’t live in the areas you are comfortable with.
• Most expats won’t be single very long.
• Upgrades from S/O to JFO when I started were running at 18 months. They are now running at about four years and will most likely blow out to 6+ years if CX starts crewing long haul flights with two SO’s. Yearly pay increment for SO’s stops at year four.
• The new house assistance of HK$10000.00 isn’t indexed to the Hong Kong Housing Index and therefore isn’t indexed for inflation. You want to have a guess what the inflation rate for housing in Hong Kong has been running at for the last few years and what that HK$10000.00 will get you in a few more years if inflation goes the way it is predicted to go.
• After tax on the housing assistance you are only left with HK$8300.00.
• The HK$1,100,000.00 forgivable loan after 6 years ROS to CX is 100% taxable by the IRD and if you are from the US by the IRS. That would be an interesting tax bill. Even if the entire loan is used to pay for the training in Adelaide it is 100% taxable as it is now considered income.

I could go on and on. The majority of CX pilots want same pay for the same job, including cadets. That’s full expat terms for everyone including cadets. Even if CX only gave 50% of the full expat housing for six years CX comes out in front.

[N1 Vibes]

Sloppyjoe,

you may be a little out of touch old fruit. A 2 bed property in Tung Chung HK$3M (GBP 232k), 4 bed house in Southall, very near to the airport and the city of London, GBP 224k (HK$2.9M).

Best Regards,

N1 Vibes

[SMOC]

N1 Vibes isn't Sloppyjoe pointing out that for 3M in HK you get 800' near the airport and in London you get a 4 bedroom home so if you want a 4 bedroom home in HK you better start thinking 15M+++.

Voiceofreason are you an expat?

[etrang]

I could go on and on.

I have no doubt about that, no doubt at all. And i'm sure you will.

And what happens when he/she is no longer single

Lots of things change once you start a family, but he wasn't asking for relationship planning advice. He was asking if HK$45,000/month is enough to provide a reasonable standard of living for a single person in HK. It is.

[Voiceofreason]

404

What is your motivation for wanting to degrade our CofS?

Not degrading anyone's conditions - mine (and a few hundred others') just improved in fact. Not saying either that this isn't less than what the equivalent experience bought you in CX (as an expat) just a few years ago - it certainly is. Again - just trying to get some perspective and say there isn't a lot better out there, and what is being offered will let you live to a reasonable standard in HK.

Point by point:

Most expats couldn’t live in the areas you are comfortable with

I don't live in Mei Foo or Tai Wai either and wouldn't want to.

Most expats won’t be single very long.

Maybe not - neither am I, as I have said. My local package supports us just fine.

Upgrades from S/O to JFO when I started were running at 18 months. They are now running at about four years and will most likely blow out to 6+ years if CX starts crewing long haul flights with two SO’s. Yearly pay increment for SO’s stops at year four.

Upgrades to JFO when I joined were three years. 6+? We'll see, but that's not what we're discussing. If you can live on $45k in HK at SO year 1, you can live on whatever you go up to in the future.

The new house assistance of HK$10000.00 isn’t indexed to the Hong Kong Housing Index and therefore isn’t indexed for inflation.

Neither is your salary. Didn't stop us from asking for more salary last year, and most likely won't stop us from asking for more allowance in the future. I'm not even thinking of this as housing, but as an increase to my salary.

After tax on the housing assistance you are only left with HK$8300.00.

17% tax? When was the last time you paid that much? Standard rate is capped at a max of 15%.

The HK$1,100,000.00 forgivable loan after 6 years ROS to CX is 100% taxable by the IRD and if you are from the US by the IRS. That would be an interesting tax bill. Even if the entire loan is used to pay for the training in Adelaide it is 100% taxable as it is now considered income.

Really? And you're source of that advice is? Don't know about the US, but I think that only "income derived from employment" is taxable. If any part of the loan is paid out in cash, yes taxable - that's income. Otherwise, why wouldn't all current cadets have to pay tax on their training in Adelaide? Same principle.

[N1 Vibes]

SMOC

Sloppyjoes point was that you couldn't buy a 4 bed house in London as a BA pilot, my point is I think you can. And for interest I pointed out that Tung Chung apt's are the same price, which for a single man would be mosta acceptable.

Best Regards,

N1 Vibes

[chards]

So Voice Of Reason, if you see it not as housing but an increase in salary I trust you will be petitioning the company to apply this to everyone's pay scales? It would be contravening the RDO otherwise wouldn't it? :O

[SMOC]

Really? He says as a BA or VS pilot he could buy a 4 bedroom home.

As a professional pilot for BA or VS back home I could buy a 4 bedroom house near the city and live comfortably.

[Voiceofreason]

So Voice Of Reason, if you see it not as housing but an increase in salary I trust you will be petitioning the company to apply this to everyone's pay scales? It would be contravening the RDO otherwise wouldn't it?

Sure - why not!

[404 Titan]

etrang

That is the typical short sighted mentality that screws people in the long run. Yes we all know that as a single person the package is doable. Once you are married with kids it is completely inadequate. As you obviously don’t work here I suggest you keep your nose out of what clearly is none of your business.

Voiceofreason

Do you have family in Hong Kong? As you were born here I would imagine you do or at least grew up with your family in Hong Kong. Please don’t tell me that this doesn’t give you an insight into Hong Kong life, a feeling of home and a sense of street wise an expat couldn’t possibly dream of.

For the life of me I can’t see why when others (the AOA) are trying to get full expat conditions for everyone, including yourself that you would get on this forum and try and sabotage the work that is going on behind closed doors. Why is that?

It is obvious that you haven’t been here very long but a look at history would show you that CX has done this before. The end result last time was a letter in hundreds of CX pilots mail boxes with a sign or be fired ultimatum. If you don’t think this won’t happen again then you are very naive.

17% tax? When was the last time you paid that much? Standard rate is capped at a max of 15%.

Tax, you don’t want to have a debate with me about tax. Do you know the difference between progressive tax rates and standard tax rates? Do you know which is the most efficient and at what income level a tax payer will be required to go to the other taxation method? In Hong Kong the IRD will tax all tax payers using the progressive tax rates up to about HK$1.5M. Above that they will use the standard rate. With the exception of a few, most CX pilots would have their tax calculated using the progressive tax rates. That would mean that the housing assistance that is paid into your income would be taxed at 17%, the top marginal tax rate under the progressive tax rate method.

Really? And you're source of that advice is? Don't know about the US, but I think that only "income derived from employment" is taxable.
I’m also an accountant if you haven’t already figured it out. That’s how I know. Go and ask the IRD for yourself if you don’t believe me. As far as the IRD is concerned the day the forgivable loan is forgiven the entire loan becomes income which is chargeable in that year.

If any part of the loan is paid out in cash, yes taxable - that's income. Otherwise, why wouldn't all current cadets have to pay tax on their training in Adelaide? Same principle.

It’s not the same principle at all. The difference is the company use to just pay for the cadets training directly to FTA. Now they give the cadet a loan and they pay for the training themselves. It’s the same as saying here is an advance on your future income to go and learn to fly in Adelaide. It's all treated as income unless it is paid back to CX. Period.

[etrang]

Haha, 404, I'll give your suggestion all the consideration it deserves. Seriously, if you're paying even 15% tax in HK you do need a new accountant.

a feeling of home and a sense of street wise an expat couldn’t possibly dream of.

Behave. We're talking about Hong Kong not Kinshasa.

try and sabotage the work that is going on behind closed doors

Do grow up, 404 its just a message board. Do you stalk around the DB residents club telling your pilot "friends" to be careful what they say because the man from Swire is listening? Actually you probably do.

[SloppyJoe]

Who ever said anything about living in Central London? I for one would not want to, Cambridge, Bath, Bristol, Reading, Brighton. Unlike Hong Kong there are many places that are nice to live in the UK and still close enough to LHR.

Yes you can survive in Hong Kong on this package but it really is not worth it as everyone will prove when they start leaving after they have 1000 hrs in a jet. This will do one of two things. Push out SO time to the absolute max or increase your package once more. It is not JUST about a house and buying food. It is about living in your home country with your long time friends, close to family, close to the things you enjoy. Hong Kong is OK but it is not my home and I know for a fact that this package is not enough for someone to leave their home for, be it saving potential, standard of living, or any other number of arguments.

This is not enough money for an expat widebody pilot to live in Hong Kong. It is enough for a single cadet with no flying experience or maybe someone with no jet time trying to move up the ladder. Once these people become widebody pilots they will know by then that this is not enough and they can find better opportunities elsewhere.

[crwjerk]

Haha, 404, I'll give your suggestion all the consideration it deserves. Seriously, if you're paying even 15% tax in HK you do need a new accountant.

OK i'll bite.... If you put your Total income in one box and your mortgage/rent amount in the other box, send it to the Inland revenue department, and get a bill for less than 15% I'd like to know how you swindle it. :sad:

[MilPilot]

It is not about surviving!!! You are screwing yourself and everybody else for the rest of your career.
If you are willing to accept substandard pay/terms now, they know you will do that later when you upgrade to FO/CAPT. It is naive to think you will be receiving a huge pay increase later!

[Iron Skillet]

A regular, small 2-bedroom (each bedroom less than half the size of what most think a bedroom is, with the "master" bedroom the size of my parents' bathroom back home) is now going for a minimum of 3.5M on a low floor with no view of the oldest ones by the MTR, and most others in the 4-6M range.

[Voiceofreason]

404

I understand your point on the 17% progressive tax rate, but at the end of the day, I look at my tax bill and see how much tax I've paid versus how much my income is. When you factor in the standard married person's allowance, I paid just over 10% last year.

Thanks for the reasoned debate anyway. Much more than you get from others here. I can see we're coming at it from different angles, so there's no sense in pushing this too much further.

sloppyjoe

I get your point about living elsewhere in the UK. But again, $45k is far more than you would earn (after tax) working for a Sleezyjet or similar which is the choice facing most new joiners these days. It ain't glamorous!