SWA 737 in the mud @KMDW

[barit1]

No injuries in evac (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42767938)

[lomapaseo]

Any giggle maps :E

[Admiral346]

Silverhawk, I do agree with you on the interpretation of the word "god" here - however I can not take it that "things will happen now and then".
That's not the way I conduct my flying buisness.
Everything I touch in that aircraft has been proven to work with a probability of failure 10to the -83rd power or something, the takeoff is calculated to a preciscion of single meters os stopmargin, I deal with single kilogramms on my loadsheet (that bag of mail), but landing is still a grey area, and noone is willing to do anything about it.
Every week, just read that aviation herald, at least one overrun is reported. Most of them end like this one, some tires got muddy, everyone disembarks shaken but unharmed. God give it, when it is my time to fall into the trap of the great unknown (of landing performance), that it will have a similar outcome.
But there is still no standard friction testing, no meaningful and mandatory figure to be reported by the airport authorities! And many pilots will refuse to take off into a TS, but I haven't heard many object to a landing in heavy rain. Depending on who you work for, there might not be that many options left ("What, you diverted because it was raining?").
To me, the runway excursion is the biggest safetyconcern to lineoperations today; I would trade my bulletproof door for a precise estimate on brake performance any day.

I am glad the guys of Southwest made it ok. But obviously it was pure luck (or fate, but that would put us back to the top of my post...)

[ChristiaanJ]

Any giggle maps :E
Check "Chicago", "Midway" and "Cicero Avenue".

Judging by the photos, he should have motored on another hundred yards, turned onto the avenue, and taxied to the terminal.

[Halfnut]

Looking at the photos thank goodness the chap didn't wind up hitting the EMAS.


Plane stuck in mud after sliding off runway at Midway Airport - PhotoGallery - Chicago Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/photos/galleries/index.html?story=5035827)

[RegDep]

AVheralds have a GiggleMap and their proposal for the approximate position on their site Incident: Southwest B737 at Chicago on Apr 26th 2011, runway excursion on landing (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=43b97979&opt=0)

[FIRESYSOK]

Judging by the photo, they missed the EMAS- precisely the place you'd want to steer the jet.

Perhaps they could not keep the jet straight. Perhaps they thought it would be better to put it in the mud. Maybe they thought they'd roll the dice and see if they could get it through the wall. I wonder what they were thinking. Perhaps Halfnut was driving. :rolleyes:

[con-pilot]

Before it starts, there is nothing wrong with MDW, I used to fly 727s there and had no problems.

One just needs to bring his/her A-game.

[Halfnut]

FIRESYSOK - I guess you don't know humor.

con-pilot - I used to fly DC-9 into MDW too. That said any airline that operates thousands of flights each year into an airport like MDW with short runways and no overruns is only asking for a runway excursion every so often.

There is a reason the City of Chicago decided to build an all new airport years ago out at peach orchard on the edge of town when the jets started coming on line. Now LUV makes it part of their business model to go back into airports that were abandoned years ago.

[Flight Safety]

What was he doing on 13C? Why wasn't he on 22L?

[vapilot2004]

@Master CP: The boss and various associates in the back have informed me several times over the years they notice the difference when we land at MDW due mainly to firmer than usual plants - particularly when it's wet.

[sevenstrokeroll]

on the bright side, they didn't blindly evacuate down the slides. they waited for the stairs and had the time to do so.

I've landed (and taken off too) DC9's and 737's at midway. You have to bring your A game is right. Well said CON PILOT.

I'm more worried about a rejected takeoff at midway than an over run on landing...

But, if anyone has the wx at the time of the accident/incident, please post. I heard an early report that said it was runway three one center...later on one three center...anyone know for sure?

The last over run, the guys didn't get reversers out for 18 seconds after landing...remember that one? There was also the use of auto brakes when it wasn't really authorized yet.

We had a saying, always on glideslope...except maybe for midway! you guys will know what I mean.

[C5Guy]

@FlightSafety

I don't know what your experience is with KMDW but the reason they were on 13C probably had everything to do with the flow at KORD. I've routinely landed at KMDW with 25k x-winds because KORD dictates the runways.

[VFD]

Judging by the photo, they missed the EMAS- precisely the place you'd want to steer the jet.
I think you are missing the visual element here.
There is a giant red and white checkered blast fence at the end of the EMAS. One must consider that the instinct would be to steer away from the huge checkered blast fence taking over your field of vision, EMAS or no EMAS between the end of the runway and blast fence.
That is of course considering that he was in control and not hydroplaning.
VFD

[sevenstrokeroll]

AS a pilot, you can request the runway you want at midway...ATC will tell you there will be a DELAY...this is their tactic to make you move things along THEIR WAY.

But put your foot down and instead of a 30 minute delay like they tell you, it will only be a couple of minutes...trust me, give it a try! but don't waver and have some fuel!!!

you might end up shooting an ILS 31 center and break off to make a VFR pattern to another runway...you might actually have to fly a traffic pattern!!!

[Rapid D]

What was he doing on 13C? Why wasn't he on 22L?


Weather below mins for circle to 22L. Went in there 40 minutes or so before that airplane and wx something like vis. 2 -RA, ceiling 1000 BKN and winds 200/ 12 G 22.

[FIRESYSOK]

It is a conundrum. Do pilots brief this? Do they have it in the back of their minds- if this goes long, I'm gonna keep it straight

Airlines don't teach anything regarding EMAS since it's not available everywhere, but you'd think more seasoned MDW users most likely know it's there, available, and will stop the airplane.

I agree, it was either not under control, or the instinct was to steer away from the wall/blast fence. I can see it now, mandated EMAS overrun training in my next sim. "Guys, just go straight ahead while I fail your brakes"

[pattern_is_full]

Why wasn't he on 22L?

it should be noted that the Wills (formerly Sears) Tower is pretty much exactly on the centerline of 22L at MDW, sticking up 1500' AGL 10 miles out, right where one would want to be to intercept an ILS. So there is currently no ILS (and likely never will be) for 22L/R.

There are RNAV/GPS and/or circling approaches for 22L - but as mentioned, since they are non-precision, they have higher minimums. The RNAV is offset 15 degrees south to avoid the Loop highrise area, further reducing the precision.

[heavy.airbourne]

Everything I touch in that aircraft has been proven to work with a probability of failure 10to the -83rd power or something, (...)

Absolute nonsense! The risk of losing the tail section during an Atlantic crossing is near 10E-9 (in a well-maintained a/c). Aviation is all about calculated risks, and the more there fly, the greater the chance that something happens...

[Globaliser]

Not quite mudNot quite yesterday, either. ;)

That's a photo from the 2005 accident, I think.

[KBPsen]

Not could be, it is. The Daily Mail article you linked from even said so under the picture. The snow should have been a clue also.

The first post of the thread linked to a video of the incident. That should perhaps have been first port of call?

[Rollingthunder]

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2011-04/276757260-26144701.jpg

[barit1]

That's a photo from the 2005 accident, I think.

Right runway, wrong end. :=

[A37575]

I see it in the simulator a hundred times a year -excess speed well beyond Vref all the way down on final and to touch down. Call it lazy flying if you like. If simulator instructors could allow practice on minimum legal length runways, I am sure pilots would strive for more accurate speeds and touch down points. In turn this would enourage good habits to be used on longer runways.

Boeing advise Vref plus five knots as minimum approach speed. The FCTM also recommends bleeding off excess headwind component additives (except for gust factor) before touch down. But rarely does this occur during recurrent training in the simulator. Too many pilots consider Vref as a dangerously low airspeed and therefore prefer to carry excess speed than dare to cross the threshold at Vref. On a slippery runway any excess airspeed coupled with unwanted float, is bound to extend the landing roll with sometimes disasterous consequences.

[BOAC]

1500' AGL 10 miles out, right where one would want to be to intercept an ILS. - Gulp! You do it your way if you insist! I'll stick to mine:hmm:

[Rapid D]

ILC 13C only when I went in about 12:30p. Chicago approach not giving RNAV (RNP) 13C to anyone who dared to ask. Too busy.

[Harry Spotter]

Looking at that photo , the pilots nearly missed those yellow vehicles , ambulances and some people as well.
The pilot did a good job avoiding all those obstacles !

[Bolli]

Is is by chance where the google maps Icon is :rolleyes:
Midway Airport, Chicago, IL, United States - Google Maps (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Midway+Airport,+Chicago,+IL,+United+States&aq=0&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=13.52256,43.286133&ie=UTF8&hq=Midway+Airport,+Chicago,+IL,+United+States&hnear=Chicago+Midway+International+Airport+(MDW),+5600+S+Cic ero+Ave,+Chicago,+Cook,+Illinois+60638,+United+States&ll=41.792065,-87.743416&spn=0.000495,0.001832&t=h&z=20)

[con-pilot]

Halfnut

There is a reason the City of Chicago decided to build an all new airport years ago out at peach orchard on the edge of town when the jets started coming on line. Now LUV makes it part of their business model to go back into airports that were abandoned years ago.

Very true that, I remember when MDW was mostly a corporate/private operations airport. Very nice.

Then the airlines moved back in. More than just one.

Oh well, that's life.

[barit1]

Bolli

Right airfield, wrong corner. Go to extreme SE corner - the blast fence is visible in the aerial view.

[kappa]

Southwest Jet Slides Off Chicago Runway | NBC Dallas-Fort Worth (http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Southwest-Jet-Slides-Off-Chicago-Runway-120722299.html)

[DownIn3Green]

So now the "non-pilot" lampaeso is ridiculing Google?

Having flown in and out of Midway, as well as Burbank in a B-727, if I want to know what and or the airport is, I don't need "giggle"...I have charts and approach plates (lampaeso--they are not really "plates" but pieces of paper we PILOTS use)...

And yes they are demanding airports, but as has been previously posted, one needs to be on their "A" game....

BTW...when is the last time you Captained a Commercial Transport Jet???

Didn't think so...

[stepwilk]

"...and approach plates (lampaeso--they are not really "plates" but pieces of paper we PILOTS use)..."

We always called them approach plates, back in the olden days.

[DownIn3Green]

Step...That was my point....many hrs updating the Jepps...Cheers...

[FlightPathOBN]

Probably the RNAV (RNP) Y RWY 13C approach as -300s were being diverted. Only -700s are set up for RNAV, SWA's -300s can't do RNAV approaches.

:mad:

the rnav rnp would have set the final at 140kts for the 37...

you could manually fly a 300 on that procedure with that straight in and manage your energy...
you mean to tell me the crew could not manage Vref+5 approach?

[sevenstrokeroll]

A3757 is quite right. Whatever happened to the ability to land within 200' of a designated spot on the runway? that was minimum commercial standard...good guys got it within six inches.

Touchdown at Vref to Vref minus 5 is acceptable...in jets anyway.

There is a reluctance to FLY THE FRIKIN PLANE...an ATP should be able to handle it...but there is so much SLOP and it is considered ok.

[aterpster]

FlightPathOBN:

the rnav rnp would have set the final at 140kts for the 37...

Why would that be?

[3.5 stripes]

Stepwilk,

Your reference to approach plates... I'm sure you meant the GOOD old days... remember... when we actually flew the planes... as pilots!

3.5

[FlightPathOBN]

Why would that be?

the AT would do that...or be very near that...

[Akali Dal]

A3757 is quite right. Whatever happened to the ability to land within 200' of a designated spot on the runway? that was minimum commercial standard...good guys got it within six inches.



Wow, 6". That's impressive! Of course the fakers from our subcontinent and other corners of the world certainly cannot do it.:uhoh:

[pattern_is_full]

Originally Posted by pattern is full
1500' AGL 10 miles out, right where one would want to be to intercept an ILS.
- Gulp! You do it your way if you insist! I'll stick to mine

Point taken! OK - right where ATC would want to line one up number three or four in the "string of pearls" to intercept a hypothetical ILS for 22L - whether one wanted them to or not. ;)

As a pax, I've ridden on a 737 doing a circle to land 22L out of an ILS to 31C at KMDW. Winter, light snow, but otherwise better wx than was available for the SW crew (5 miles+ vis, 2000' ceiling.) But with scud at 900' and 1.5-mile visibility in rain, not an option on this day at this time for this crew.

[aterpster]

FltPathOBN:

the AT would do that...or be very near that...

All the A/T's I used flew Vref +5 unless I commanded a higher KIAS.

If the 737 A/Ts command 140 KIAS when Vref is, say, 114, KIAS, then the aircraft should not have been qualified for RNP AR, at least not with A/T.

[FlightPathOBN]

I assumed NG's my friend... and yes vref +5...

[sevenstrokeroll]

There seems to be a lost technique of the power on spot landing. I refer you to "Stick and Rudder" as he explains slowing down prior to the fence.

Certainly I am not advocating a full stall landing in the 737 or jet transports of any kind...however the idea of keeping the spot in your windshield and reducing speed to touchdown in a sort of blended flare starting somewhere near the middle marker /equivilent seems to have been lost.

as you approach the touchdown point, properly trimmed, reduce power slightly and maintain the glideslope/approach angle to touchdown by pulling back a bit, granted you lose speed, and pull back the power a bit more, pull up a bit more lose more speed blending this smoothly to touchdown on your aim point at vref to vref minus five knots.

this takes practice, skill, willingness to add power if you get too slow.

The current trend of auto throttle, mindless automatic cutback of power and going for a greaser is starting to bite people in the butt, or shall I say empenage?

in driving a car, we learn through practice, how to pull up to a stop sign smoothly...tha same sort of sense can be developed for a spot landing in flying. Our over reliance on auto EVERY FRIKIN THING is removing our chance to practice.

[VFD]

There has been no information about the landing other than he is off the end of the runway. We do not know if: He/She
Landed long
Landed hot
Hyroplaned
Had a greezer not tripping the WOW
Had equipment malfunction
Got caught in the Boeing throttle quadrant reverser trap.
Some or all the above.

The current trend of auto throttle, mindless automatic cutback of power and going for a greaser is starting to bite people in the butt, or shall I say empenage?
Well there may possibly be someone getting a blow to their ego, mud on their cowboy boots and a hicup to their advancement here.

VFD

[slyde55]

Maybe the crew didn't want to stress the airframe with a go-around and have the roof rip off. Seriously, having been to MDW numerous times you really have to try hard to park a jet in the mud.:D

[lambourne]

KMDW 261844Z 21012G21KT 7SM -RA FEW009 BKN015CB OVC034 16/14 A2941 RMK AO2 CB SE MOV E P0013

KMDW 261828Z 22010G17KT 1 1/2SM RA BR SCT009 BKN015CB OVC034 16/14 A2941 RMK AO2 CB SW MOV E P0011

This would indicate the CB never went over the field. It was SW moving E and in 16 minutes later it was SE moving E.

The Southwest pilots have had some challenges staying on the approved surface. There is a culture there of flying fast, taxiing fast and treating regulations as guidelines only. It has worked for them for many years but they are edging closer and closer each time to a catastrophe.

Since Southwest was majorly responsible for the age 65 approval in the states and allowing TWO OVER 60 pilots to fly together. I wonder if any of this combination was together on this flight????

[sevenstrokeroll]

IGH

About 17 years ago I watched a jet go down in extreme weather in CLT. ATC was on my radio and NO warning was given of lightning, green sky, winds that were rocking my jet while sitting on the ground or heavy rain.

I personally went and spoke with the deputy FAA administrator, demanding action to , in effect, create a CONREP...a controller report similiar to a pirep. Further investigation on my part showed that:

Controllers are not really trained WX observers and the FAA and NAT WX SVC have largely CONTRACTED OUT the METARs we now see. Indeed, getting a "SPECIAL" is actually quite tough.

I also found out that indeed the controllers only have what is called, MORAL AUTHORITY to speak up when things look like crap. Very few pilots know this . They also don't know that awhile ago Severe and Extreme turbulence forecasts were replaced with MOGR that is MODERATE OR GREATER because every Flight Ops manual prohibits flight into severe or extreme turbulence. Forecasting same would ground all flights.

Given that the FAA did nothing in 1994, I followed up with the FAA Administrator Jane Garvey in 1999 with the same request. ATC looks out the window and sees crappy wx and they are obligated to at least WARN pilots if not actually deny them clearance.

In the rush to replace the striking controllers of the early 1980's, some short cuts were made...and the loss of wx training was one of them..

After complete failure with the FAA I went to the tower at CLT in uniform and asked the controllers to at least use their moral authority when things went to hell.

[Admiral346]

I sure would value an observation by the tower being passed on to me, and I directly ask them, if, for example, my radar picture is unclear, to check wether it is the city or a TS above the city I am seeing on my scope.

But to have them deny takeoff or approach is not what I'd like to see. It is PIC decision, and should stay that way.

Just as it is the PIC's responsibility to keep clear of terrain in a visual app. In Italy they have punished an ATCO for a f***up of a Citation Crew in Sardinia. Stuff like that should not be happening.

Nic

[barit1]

NTSB Preliminary (http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20110426X53639&key=1)

[pattern_is_full]

..."ingesting a taxiway light during the excursion..."

Well, at least that's a change from the usual birds and grass. ;)

In the current issue of FLYING - ILAFFT column - a PP reports being cleared for an ILS into KLUK. When he reported in to the tower, the controller had the good grace to tell him "You do know there is a thunderstorm right over the field?"

He made a 90° turn and went elsewhere.

I welcome input and information from controllers - I don't think they should have to take on the burden or responsibility for my flying decisions, though.

"Everything not forbidden is compulsory" is a really bad way to manage human interactions, even professional ones.

[airman1900]

sevenstrokeroll:


That accident was quite notable:


From the NTSB web site:

Title: Flight into Terrain during Missed Approach USAir 1016, DC-9-31, N954VJ Charlotte/Douglas International Airport Charlotte, North Carolina July 2, 1994.
NTSB Report Number: AAR-95-03, adopted on 4/4/1995
NTIS Report Number: PB95-910403


There is a copy of AAR at:
http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR95-03.pdf


There is interesting discussion by US NWS personnel on the TDWR at CLT:
National Weather Service Forecast Office - WFO Greenville-Spartanburg, SC (http://www.erh.noaa.gov/gsp/tdwr/info/specs.html)


I recall talking to a guy at Raytheon, the manufacturer of TDWR, about the mid 1990s, after CLT. He explained that is supposed to very automatic for ATC personnel. As I try to avoid T-storms in my C-172, I have no idea how useful ATC personnel or pilots have found TDWR to be.

By the way, in my opinion, the NTSB title for this accident is quite "original."

[grimmrad]

SWA is not too lucky now at Midway, are they?
File:Southwest Airlines Flight 1248 -1.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1248_-1.jpg)

[bubbers44]

ATC should advise the aircraft what is happening but the crew has the ultimate responsibility of how to respond to that information. No controller should tell you to go around because he thinks the weather is too bad. If an aircraft is on the runway and a separation problem exists he has the job to say go around. The PIC is in command of his aircraft, ATC is in command of separation.

[Rapid D]

Nice flame douchebag. Not sure who you work for, nor do I care, but what do you say about the marketing departments about the other airlines who fly out of MDW and BUR - they don't count? What about SNA? Pretty short runway there too - shorter than MDW - and pretty good mix of everyone there. or, just SWA are the cowboys there too?

[aterpster]

Rapid D:

I was defending the SWA pilots, but that was apparently lost on you.

SNA is not a great operation, but it seldom snows there.

[misd-agin]

450' past the threshold. Seems to be nice flying from that observation by the NTSB.

We'll just have to see what other details the investigation offers before we commence with the lynching. :sad:

[sevenstrokeroll]

bubbers is right that the PIC must decide...but information is helpful.

I've discussed the situation as I've listed, tower folk not wx observers etc...and I tell my pilot friends just say: I need you to tell me what you see out your window RIGHT NOW...plain english...and not read me the METAR.

It helps.

and if you are going around in bad wx...more power is better than less power, stay on instruments...the CLT crash...the pilots didn't push the throttles up to full GA power right away...and even delayed firewall power...

[bubbers44]

SSR is absolutely correct in that the metar last reported has nothing to do with landing weather minimums. That is history. Only what is reported now determines if you can do the approach with the existing visibility. The ceiling is advisory and only needs to be considered to prepare you for the approach. We can all tell war stories about going around even though visibility was legal because at DH or MDA we have to have visual reference to the runway or approach lights. I guess if a tornado was zipping through the tower should just say go around but other than that we have our job and they have theirs.

[AmericanFlyer]

Video: Southwest plane caught on camera skidding off runway | TERMINAL U | Travel News (http://www.terminalu.com/travel-news/video-southwest-plane-caught-on-camera-skidding-off-runway/17294/)

NTSB released video of accident which happened last April 26th...

[grimmrad]

Absolutely no expert and fishing in the blind - question to the expert: Shouldn't you use spoilers and thrust reverse in Midway in wet situation given the relatively short runways, history, proximity to public streets etc...? Don';t see them on the photos deployed...

[Hotel Tango]

Grimrrad, try and read the report :hmm:

[grimmrad]

I know, it says:
The thrust reversers and speedbrakes were not deployed according to Southwest Airlines’ procedures. Speedbrakes were fully deployed 16 seconds after touchdown and the thrust reversers were deployed 19 seconds after touchdown which resulted in insufficient deceleration during the initial portion of the ground roll for the aircraft to stop before the end of the runway.

But a) why do I not see any on the pictures, unless thy were stored again but that seems not SOP to change settings in the cockpit after you crashed and b) why is it SWA SOP not to use those at MDW - didn't they learn?

[lederhosen]

I think the notable thing is that with 27,000 hours combined experience in the cockpit this can still happen. We should all take note particularly regarding reverser and speedbrake position on short runways. Interesting that lightning should strike twice as well!

[golfyankeesierra]

The thrust reversers and speedbrakes were not deployed according to Southwest Airlines’ procedures.
why is it SWA SOP not to use those at MDW

Well, I (non native English speaker) read it that the fact they weren't deployed was not according to SWA sop.

[barit1]

I read it that way too - It's quite ambiguous language for an accident report! :confused:

[Escape Path]

I read it to be as in they didn't deploy them on time (took them 15-ish seconds to do it)

[SkyDivPilot]

Check the books! Manual brakes stops 500 ft. shorter than MAX AUTO brakes. Why wait on the auto brakes!

[royalbavarian]

is the friction coefficient of the runway anywhere reported?