Give up the dream or go for it?

[Omlaaay]

I'm a firm believer of everything happens for a reason, and that if you want something bad enough, if you work for it, you'll get it.

To shed a bit of light onto my story (making this sound like a sob story Britain's Got Talent audition!) I'm your typical, all I want to do in life is be an Airline Pilot kind of person and would really go to the ends of the earth to get there. I can't really think of any other way to put it, it's all I want to do.

I'm only 15, and I'll soon be leaving secondary school to go onto Sixth Form to start my A-Levels, having said which, I'm not entirely sure which A-Levels I'm going to be doing yet. I'm thinking maybe, Business Studies, English Language, Geography and French or Biology, as if a life in the sky doesn't work, I'm thinking about going into ICT/Business. :bored:

Thinking about my future, I'm deciding what I'm supposed to do when I leave Sixth Form:

Go to University, get a degree in something completely different, then go into flying - however, I'll never ever, in my wildest dreams be able to afford both.
Get a job for a year or two, save up as much money as I can, learn how to fly, and look for a job. Which, if I can't find a job, I'm left unemployed and most likely in debt.
Maybe, get myself into loads of debt straight away, and learn how to fly, then left repaying it all. (My parents would never agree to this option and would most likely dis-own me or something!)
Or maybe, with a miracle from the big man above, be accepted on some cadetship at the other side of the globe, but as I'm not going for a Maths/Physics based A-Level choice, I guess this will never happen. :ugh:


I'm hoping as I'm young, I can use this to my advantage, maybe the economy and job market will have improved in the next 5 years, and there'll be a much better chance of me finding a job. :8

But, as it is now, I just can't decide if I should give it up, although I'll probably regret it forever, or just go for it? It really is, literally, and in the pun sense, fall or fly! :sad:

What advice would you give to a determined, 15 year old who is willing to go to the end's of the earth to achieve her dream?
Thank you!
PS - Happy Easter! :ok:

[zondaracer]

If you pick flying in the end, don't go into loads of debt to get there. Being debt free will give you a certain freedom that is easy to enjoy, but once lost, hard to get back.

[paco]

Follow what's in your heart! I wouldn't give up, but there's time enough to do some stuff without getting into debt quite yet! :)

With your A levels I would include Physics (or whatever they call it these days) and a language or two. There are plenty of good study books on pilot stuff available cheap on ebay - start reading those. Knowledge both keeps you out and keeps you out of trouble (or rather, lack of knowledge doesn't!)

Good luck!

[The500man]

For a 15 year old, you seem to have already given it quite some thought and worked out what your options are. I think you're right to pick A-levels that you're interested in rather than the traditionally regarded "must-haves" of Physics and Maths. You really won't need them.

Pressumably you're parents would rather you go to university? Likely with the sneeky hope that you'll get invested in it and forget all about flying commercially and the potential hardship/ joblessness that might go with it. Personally I'm not a big believer in the power of a degree to land you a job, and now with hindsight, I know I certainly would have been better off financially not going to university.

My advice is to do your A-levels, and see if you can find a job with a half-decent wage that you don't utterly despise. If you can find one, and living at home, you should be able to save up fast for flying training. Take a year out of education and if all does not go well, then head off to university and see how things go. Giving up in the short term may not mean you never achieve your dream. I've seen so many threads on Pprune over the last few years of people successfully transitioning to a flying career in their 30's and 40's.

I wouldn't worry about the economy and how the market may be in the future, because no one has a clue how it will be in the next 10 years. Though some people would have you believe otherwise!

When you do start training (I'm pretty sure you will) remember that there are alot of fun things to fly and get experience of; it seems too many people just take the blinkered approach of "minimal-hours-to-everything" and then try to get a job. It amazes me that some people just want to fly an airliner and nothing else. If you're not flying because you just love to fly then ask yourself why you are doing it?

I wish you all the best whatever you decide.

[KAG]

Give up the dream or go for it?
I am sorry for the lack of imagination, but for this kind of question, I have always the same standard answer: go to university, then buy a glider or similar if flying is really a passion. The best choice you can make, especially if you are a young individual looking for a career like you.

Some people are adventurers, and if it were not pilot they would have choosen something even more challenging anyway. I was fire man, then para trooper (went to different countries like Africa...) before choosing to fly bush in Canada, instruction in Asia, eventually the airlines. It was not a big deal for me to face a challenging life as a young pilot, or issues with my job, or get my first job far away and in difficult environment, because that is precisely what I wanted. In this case the The500man post is valid.

But a young lady like you (the same for a young man anyway) wondering about career choice in 2011: university of pilot training? University Omlaaay, even if down the road Cathay Pacific call you to pay for your training in Australia.





This is your own post below, answering somebody asking if he should go for it, maybe you should read it again, it may inspire you...You only live once.

That's all I'm going to say.
The decision is up to you at the end of the day.
And if whatever you pick, turns out how you wanted it to, then great!
If it doesn't, then that's not so great, but at least you tried. Just dust yourself off and move on.
Better to try and fail than to kick yourself for not trying, and wondering 'What if?'.

Myself, I am a young aspiring pilot still in full time education, my parents aren't really too keen on me going into the Aviation Industry, with the price of training and risks. I know exactly what they mean, it's a big risk and I understand what they're saying. But like I said, only live once. So hell! I'm going to go for it. And so should you, if it's what you really want.

Good luck! http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/444830-what-would-you-do-2.html#post6313084



The lesson we should learn from it: a wannabe should refrain from giving pilot career advices to an other wannabe.

[Mickey Kaye]

The first thing I would do is get a class one medical.

A levels are no use to you its a blue license that you need. So quit school at the first opportunity and get the highest paying Monday to Friday job you can. Nag the local flying school to give you a weekend job else bum around there anyway and try and hitch the odd flight.

Do your flying training in stages when you have the CREDIT. Read lasors and know all the short cuts and minimums. IF you have the drive you will get there.

If you use your medical etc then go and do your A levels, Uni an dbe depressed for the rest of your life.

Of course if your a millionaire then simply go oxford, ctc and pay your way into a job.

If you really come from :mad: hole central then don't dish the microlight instructor route. Its gets you flying and earning money with less initial outlay.

[Mikehotel152]

Omlaaay,

I find the title of your post slightly baffling. You're 15 and haven't even done your A-levels and you're considering giving up your dream? Surely this is the time in your life when you start to make that dream a reality?!

Wherever life takes you, you will undoubtedly achieve more by aiming high. Whether it's worth aiming for a life in the clouds piloting a passenger jet is another question and one that cannot easily be answered by someone else. By joining Pprune you are making the right start. There is so much information on this website for people in your position, especially in the stickies. Read it all and reach your own conclusions.

The big question is: Do you have the aptitude for becoming a professional pilot? I suggest you try GAPAN or a similar organisation and do a test. You can find them HERE (http://www.gapan.org/career-matters/careers-information/aptitude-tests/).

Good luck.

[KAG]

Wherever life takes you, you will undoubtedly achieve more by aiming high. Being realistic and organized gives some good result too sometimes... ;-)
Anyway I quoted you because I disagree with your "undoubtedly". I would put "sometimes" or "maybe" instead.
Why? Many examples of people falling hard after having aimed high.
How many kids in the 70s/80s wanted to become cosmonaut/astronaut/taikonaut? Look at our situation in 2011, even if some individuals (very few) are sometimes turning at low level around the earth, there is no today such a thing called "astronaut", at least not the way we were seing the space travel/exploration in 1970.
Even if we can find examples to support the "beleive in your dream" or "aiming high" theory, we will each time find even more examples to support the opposite, which is: being realistic.
For this reason I would replace the "undoubtedly".

[Coffin Corner]

KAG is spot on.

Before you start throwing money at any kind of flight training I would at least wait until you are old enough to gain a PPL license (17). This doesn't mean to say you cannot undertake any flight training, far from it. Maybe a trail lesson might not go amiss just to see if you love it as much as you say you do.
The most precious commodity you have on your side is time, and lots of it. Use this time to get your education, this is very important at your age (or anyone's age). A university degree would not be a bad thing at all even though people are advising you don't do it. I will advise you do get one, purely because in this flying game things are very uncertain, and no more so for wannabes.
Contrary to the counter arguments you read here against people telling wannabes like it is (alot don't listen), there are alot of wannabes who will never, ever make it in the industry. There's only a certain number of jobs per year and the wannabe numbers far outstrip the number of jobs on offer. With this in mind I would be realistic (KAGs post) about your chances of succeeding. For any wannabe the chances are reasonable to not good odds. It is for this reason that I would have a back up plan that includes a good education. If it all goes wrong for you (and I know a hell of alot of people who it has gone wrong for) then at least you may be in a position to further a career with that good education.
Use the time you have to research, and research hard. There's generally 2 paths into the airlines, modular & integrated. There are pro's & cons for both, but which you decide to choose will dictate how you go about planning your future life & career path.
Whatever you decide though, if mum & dad won't help with the funding then please stay living at home, this will be the only way you will afford to pay for it. As soon as you buy a house and settle down that is the end of your hard earned cash for a fair few years ;)

Good luck.

[Mickey Kaye]

Of all the Wannabes that I used to kick about only two failed to make it and both due to health problems. Sure it took some alot more time than others but they all got there in the end.

These days you could be looking at a 40 grand debt after graduating. This might be OK if you have a degree in medicine or dentistry but for the majority of degrees all it will mean is an extra burden for your flight training.

So I would suggest going straight into flight training. You do the A Levels/degree if you don't make it.

And as many other before have said don't get into debt. I know only to well one 23 year old who lost his medical 6 months into his first job.

[KAG]

Thanks Coffin Corner.


Mickey:
So we have experienced pilots without job, or even worse: experienced pilot paying to work, but 100% of the wannabees getting jobs. That a perfect world we have to admit after having read your post and your observations.

[paco]

"I think you're right to pick A-levels that you're interested in rather than the traditionally regarded "must-haves" of Physics and Maths"

Beg to differ

You don't need an A level in maths, but Physics is definitely a must.

[GAZ45]

I had the same situation as you when I was 15, all I wanted was to be a pilot too! I did A levels (including maths and physics), and then went on to do a degree in architecture as a back up. The difference back then was that university was cheaper. The student loan I have to repay is a substantial amount less than now unfortunately for you.

I graduated from university even more convinced on the career as an airline pilot, as the architecture course completely put me off the subject that I once found very interesting.

I then decided to go about my 'dream' and looked into my pilot training options. I soon realised that my degree didnt really mean alot, atleast when starting to train, its all about your finance. Integrated was too much money, and modular is alot too, and requires you to have a fairly decent job to fund it.

So, now I am beginning on the modular path, getting my PPL. In hindsight I sometimes wish I'd of started modular when I left school, as a degree doesn't count for alot these days. It certainly hasn't stood me in any better position for jobs in this economic environment, and I feel if I'd started modular when I was 18 I'd probably be finishing my CPL/IR now, instead I'm starting my PPL!

Having said all that, I certainly became a better rounded person from completing a degree. I think you mature alot in many ways by going to university, so in many ways that life experience may be quite valuable. Also, who knows what my degree may count for in the future? It may be the difference between getting a job somewhere down the line.

My point is that you don't know what the future holds, and people who tell you to go to university because 'things may have changed for the better by the time you finish' are not necessarily right. When I'd finished Uni things definitely had changed, for the worse.

Just my take on things. All the best.

[KAG]

GAZ45, I use to say the same as you. To become a pilot you have to fly, and an university degree could even be an handicap sometimes, simply because it could make you miss the hiring train.
This is true. A few years back, I would have said that.

So why I wouldn't say it anymore? For 2 reasons:
-In this particular case I don't beleive I should encourage anybody to do something they are not sure about. That's not my task, even if it was my kid. I would say in this case don't do it (because when you want to become a pilot, you don't ask around the permission, and I know what I am talking about), or I could say aswell: when you are sure about it, come back to me with questions about the job.
-Second reason I now give the advice to go to university is because I beleive that many individual getting their training today won't find a pilot job, or will lose it if they find one because of the oil crisis we entered in 2007. So when I say go to university, that's simply because I beleive that in the future there will be more and more "chance" you will use your master degree than use your CPL to make a living, especially if your goal is to be an airline pilot and not a bush pilot in PNG or Africa.
Times evolve and change , advices and plans/choices have to evolve and change aswell.

[GAZ45]

KAG,

I agree with what you have said. Certainly about times changing and the need to change ideas/opinions/advice along with it. My post is purely tailored to my situation. Integrated could of even been a good shout with Oxford when I was 18, the sponsored type ratings were still happening, the course was alot cheaper than it is now, BA were recruiting from the graduates etc.. (that's not to say I would nessesarily be an airline pilot now, but there were better opportunitys I think).

So for my situation, flight training at 18 years old may have been better than going to university, but that's not to say I regret it. I have a good degree to fall back on, and it may open me up to better/different career opportunities in the future. I also have changed alot since university, it taught me more about myself than architecture which was a great experience.

Having said that, it is true that in the same way a CPL won't guarantee you a job as an airline pilot, these days a degree in architecture (or any subject) will not guarantee you a job in that field either. Master degrees (another year, another few thousand pounds) will stand you in better stead. Even then there are thousands of jobless people out there with a master degree.

It is wrong to assume that the supply of qualified professionals will always outnumber the demand for staffing only applies to pilots. It exists in almost every profession.

I'm not trying to put anyone off a degree, as you have said KAG, things are constantly changing, and it requires us to change our options. I'm glad I did my degree, but maybe doing one these days in the UK, with the rising fee's (9K a year tuition, not including maintenance loans!), will mean Student debt won't fall much short of the money you'd spend going modular.

Its just important to remember that it is still very difficult to get a job as a graduate (from someone who knows). Many people (usually people who don't have a degree), seem to think that having a degree is an easy ticket into a professional job.

[Mickey Kaye]

“Having said all that, I certainly became a better rounded person from completing a degree. I think you mature alot in many ways by going to university, so in many ways that life experience may be quite valuable”

My dad would say the same about shoveling 5 ton of coal a day.


Mickey

“ So we have experienced pilots without job, or even worse: experienced pilot paying to work, but 100% of the wannabees getting jobs. That a perfect world we have to admit after having read your post and your observations.”

I’m not saying the world smells of roses but we have just come off the back of the easiest time in history to get a airline job. As any tom dick or harry was being hired with 200 hours. However the market has changed and the historical equilibrium has returned.

Where I work (FI at CPL school) people get hired because they can bring something to the table. Unfortunately too many of the 200 hour wannabes who have “lowered themselves” and got an instructor ticket aren’t able to do that. They have no taildragger experience and don’t appear to have any interest in GA. I also suspect their CVs don’t do much for the people who hire and fire in the airline world either.

Recently the boss hired someone because the website needed updating and he was a website designer. Another chap got hired because he was always there and when we needed someone he was in the right place and the right time.

In the last 6 months we have lost approx. 50% of our instructors to the airlines. Why this is I don’t know but I suspect its because there CV stand out a bit more than the other 200 hour CPL/IR who think that the world owes them a living.

[Mikehotel152]

@KAG

I concede your point. It is very important to temper enthusiasm with realism. And while hard work often makes up for a lack of outright ability, it's essential that somebody who wishes to commit to a particular career path does a lot of research about the industry and themselves. Pprune can help with the former, a pilot aptitude test with the latter.

@coffin corner

I completely agree with the gist of your advice. Nobody ought to embark on a programme of commercial flying training without doing a trial flying lesson (and ideally a full PPL) and gaining a Class I Medical beforehand. It's what I did.


I didn't go into huge detail in my original response, which is why my advice was miconstrued. My fault :).

There are pros and cons to gaining a university education. There is also value in doing a 9-5 job for a few years to get some life experience and have a fallback. And as Mickey says, there is always the FI route for weeding out the generation who would never have the aptitude or drive to become an airline pilot but for the 200 hour job oppotunities of late. All things considered, at Omlaaay's age I would probably be aiming for the military or FI route.

[Omlaaay]

Mickey Kaye

I know only to well one 23 year old who lost his medical 6 months into his first job.

Ouch, that must be devastating, may I ask why he lost it?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I'm glad I did my degree, but maybe doing one these days in the UK, with the rising fee's (9K a year tuition, not including maintenance loans!), will mean Student debt won't fall much short of the money you'd spend going modular.


I'd go further and say that with the incredible rise in uni fees, the path of doing a degree and then going into flying training that so many of us followed is now only open to a priviledged minority. Most young people and their family cannot now afford to finance both. I always was an advocate of going to uni and making career/life decisions after a few years spent growing up(ish), but not anymore. Going into flying with a £30k uni debt? You are better off getting into a useful trade like plumbing, earning the cash for 3 years and then being in a position to finance some flying.

Financing a flying course is difficult enough for most people these days. Financing a degree ontop of that is almost impossible. It's a shame.:(

[Tinribs]

If you have to ask that question then you don't have the burning yearning desperate flying urge to get you through the bad times

Get yourself a decent degree, earn the money, fly for fun

Don't rip your heart out for something your not sure about, it would be like marrying a woman because she likes the same dogs as you

I have been flying for forty five years and recently retired. It worked for me but only because I couldn't concieve doing else

[Omlaaay]

It's just with the price of fuel, this huge aviation boom that we're all expecting can't really be as great as what people are forecasting.

I know it's hard to believe as I'm having to ask this question, but it is really all I want and I would never be able to forgive myself if I didn't go for it and never found out. So, I guess I have answered my own question.

I just need to pluck up the courage in the next 2/3 years to actually go ahead with it and take the risk

[Piltdown Man]

What risk? Is it your money? What would be truly dreadful is if you were risking your parents money, especially if it was raised with the expectation you would be able to repay it once you have a job flying. I have two sons and and daughter and given the condition of the market today, I wouldn't lend any of them money to go flying. I'd help them with a degree or a vocational course, but not flying. The conditions for the new joiners in most airlines are dreadful, verging on the criminal. I'll not encourage my kids to camp in their car at an airport car park and eat beans for every meal for a couple of years.

Get an A-Level, yes. Get a degree - but only if it is useful (ignore Meeja Studies and other such bunkum) and then think about flying with an older head on your shoulders. Go gliding. Maybe even a get a PPL but don't go flying for a living until the terms and conditions change for the better for the new joiners.

[rleungz]

My advice is to do a degree with the option to take a placement year. Work hard and get yourself a graduate offer.

That means you have a job at the end of your degree and have a chance of becoming a airline pilot (or paying off 9k x 4 fees).

[Omlaaay]

Piltdown Man

Yes, virtually all of it will be my money. Got a job the day after my 16th Birthday and getting as many hours in as possible so I can afford to fly in the future. I would never and will never expect my parents to give the me the money to learn to fly. They gained their jobs themselves and have earned all their cash themselves, they are both very much looking forward to retiring and have been saving up for a long time. I would never want to accept their money and for them not to have all the things they were hoping and dreaming of, just because of me. Many people have done it on their own, and I would much rather do it on my own than with the financial support of my parents, it'll be more rewarding that way too, even if it will be :mad: difficult!!
I'm going to get my A-Levels and whilst I'm doing them, I'll get my PPL so I have all doors open.


rleungz

If I knew I could do a degree and there would be a job in whatever field waiting for my after, and then I could learn to fly. I would, in a heartbeat. But even now for graduates, jobs are scarce! :( I guess I'll have to see in 2 years time.


john_smith

I agree with you saying the best days are long gone. I often wish I was born 40/50 years ago! :ugh: Wow, you were lucky!!! That's pretty impressive but surprising that you'd want to leave it behind, I guess we all have our reasons and opinions though :) I would never leave school as soon as possible, besides I think my parents and my entire family would string me up for doing so! When you put it like that, paying for University doesn't seem that bad at all and compared to paying for flying, it's loose change! I'm definitely not doing Maths/Physics, I'm thinking English, Geography and French? :confused: I definitely see where you're coming from and thank you for the sound advice! :ok: I shall see what the current situation is like in 2 years time and then go from there.

[Whirlygig]

I often wish I was born 40/50 years ago!When there were no/few women pilots? It was only about 20 years that the RAF allowed women to fly. Things have progressed loads since then so. although the economy is not the best, the opportunities for women are better. Sometimes we need to be thankful for what we have and where we are. ;)

[FANS]

To give up or go for it? You don't need to decide for the next ten years - you're 15 not 51!!

[rleungz]

Agreed, you're only 15 years old.

My dream was crushed by an RAF Medical Officer telling me at OASC I failed the eyesight test.

[Omlaaay]

FANS

yes, you're right, thank you :O


rleungz

oh :ouch: that must have been pretty devastating! :sad:

[The Old Fat One]

If you can do something vocational like Law, Medicine, Dentistry etc. so much the better. Then, if you absolutely must fly, do a PPL, buy a share in an aeroplane and have some fun while earning more money than you could realistically hope to earn as a pilot.

Very, very sound advice...usually it will be ignored.

.....this huge aviation boom that we're all expecting can't really be as great as what people are forecasting

Anybody expecting a huge aviation boom anytime in the next 10 years has either got a very vested interest or the IQ of a jellyfish with learning difficulties.

[Omlaaay]

The Old Fat One

In that case then I'm not quite sure they hire jellyfishes as pilots :ugh: Damn! Well, you may be right. But no one can predict the future accurately. Everyone is saying different things and not everyone can be right, so I guess we'll just have to see when the time comes.

[rleungz]

Go to University and join the RAF UAS. They give out free flying lessons and you get paid. I also think the Uni Naval Units give out free flying lessons.

[Piltdown Man]

Maybe you should be giving us the advice. If at the age of 16 you can earn enough to pay for a CPL and fund yourself through a degree you certainly don't need our help. But if you think jobs for graduates are scarce have a second look at aviation. I'd suggest that there are several thousand disillusioned people with nice shiny (and many well tarnished) but as yet unused CPLs. I'm also sure I'm correct in suggesting that there will be hundreds of un-employed type rated pilots. Really, do something else before looking at flying. I'm 100% in agreement with John Smith above.

[Omlaaay]

I don't mean I have the cash in now, I have a job currently and do as many hours as possible, what I mean is, if I were doing CPL or going to University, either way I'd need a loan and I wouldn't expect my parents to help with the repayments. Although a loan for a CPL at this moment in time would be a death wish with the economy. I'll have to think about that one.
I've been hearing the same for a while, I'm thinking I'm going to have to get a secure career beforehand, whether it be through University or not, and then take a second look at how everything is panning out!

[captainsuperstorm]

Although a loan for a CPL at this moment in time would be a death wish with the economy. I'll have to think about that one. eh? someone with a brain here...UNBELIEVABLE!!!


let s go celebrate.:ok:
bring cakies and champagne...

[Omlaaay]

Yeah, you're right. Luckily, I won't have the problem of keeping 'the wife' in the lifestyle she has been accustomed too, because I'll be the wife in the relationship :ok:

I know you're not, I agree that you have to be realistic as well as optimistic. £41K for a Captain is pretty ridiculous!

Do you know what you're wanting to do as a career instead?

Well that in it's self certainly says something. Although, both my parents work in the same industry and neither of them want me to go down the same route as them, not sure if that's just a parent child thing.

[captainsuperstorm]

I know several pilots,24, 30 , 40, 50, 52 years old.

they lost their job and with their age, it' s going to be very harder to get a job.
now they stay at home wondering what will be their futur.

some are living with their mom because they have no money, and no place where to stay.

I know a few young chap, making less than 700 euro/month. They have no other choice and in these last 30 yeaars, I have see the condition to be worse, not better.

in 10 years, no pilot in this world will be paid.our license will be changed to "professional PPL" and it will cost 250'000 euro.:ugh: