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Night Watch
21st Apr 2011, 03:47
From Flightglobal.....

WATS 2011: Cathay floats cruise copilot MPL
By John Croft

Cathy Pacific Airlines is trying to build support for a "cruise copilot" multi-crew pilot license (MPL) under ICAO rules as another solution to meeting pilot demand.

At the World Aviation Training conference in Orlando, Florida on 19 April, Cathay manager of flying training Alan Wilson, who has 21 years experience with the airline, lists "lowering of experience and age in our cockpits and reactive regulation" among current industry challenges to staffing cockpits. To mitigate pilot experience issues, he says, "Let's get down to competency-based training," referring to the MPL.

Wilson says Cathay was not involved in discussions that led to the creation of the MPL in 2006, and the current MPL protocol is a non-starter for a long-haul carrier due to the required 12 landings in the actual aircraft, twice as many as Cathay has in its ab initio programme. "I cannot justify doubling the aircraft-based training to my CFO," says Wilson, adding that "Not being active in the development [of the MPL] has left us hamstrung".

Cathay for the past 22 years has successfully turned out pilots in its "fairly conventional" ab initio pilot training. The programme runs 15 months long and consists of 200 hours in light aircraft and 60 in jet transport simulators. Threat and error management and crew resource management competencies are embedded throughout the course.

"MPL competency-based training would allow us to deploy a number of training devices appropriate to the phase of training with the aim of producing a competent first officer in a wide body aircraft," notes Wilson.

The MPL is also a plus in that it is heavily weighted to the multi-crew environment and focused on core competencies required, adds Wilson.

"Our [Cathay's] set of core competencies - and where I expect the MPL would deliver a better pilot to us are in aviation knowledge, aircraft control, leadership, flight management, communication, monitoring, situational awareness, problem-solving and decision-making, and professional responsibility," says Wilson.

He describes Cathay's operational environment as "quite difficult", one in which pilot candidates with low time and experience can develop flying skills. The reason is that Cathay predominately flies wide-bodies on ultra-long-haul operations. And a typical crew of four must share landing and other opportunities to maintain and improve competency. Ab initios act as co-pilot when the co-pilot is resting, a role the cruise-copilot MPL would focus on as a graduated step in an aviation career.

Sqwak7700
21st Apr 2011, 07:57
And some people think that our "new boss" is gonna head the company in a new direction - it is heading in a new direction alright, right into the trash bin. By the time this hash-job muppet pretend pilot scheme bites the airline in the ass a few years down he will long have been replaced so it won't affect him. He'll be sitting on the board of another company enjoying the big bonus he got from Cathay for cutting costs - at all costs.

Don't you just love professional managers? They have ruined just about every industry on the face of the earth. I have a rule, when a manager speaks his business school garbage of "focus strategies" and "mission statements" I simply just tune out. Nothing more than the same old useless crap. :hmm:

MrClaus
21st Apr 2011, 08:03
Here is a shorter version for those who don't have time to read the whole article.

From Flightglobal.....

WATS 2011: Cathay floats cruise copilot MPL
By John Croft

Cathy Pacific Airlines is trying to build support for a "cruise copilot" multi-crew pilot license (MPL) under ICAO rules because it is cheaper and will maximise short term shareholder return. Any questions?

MilPilot
21st Apr 2011, 08:52
Meet pilot demand ??? Just use some of all the highly qualified pilots in the DEFO/DESO pool.

VR-HFX
21st Apr 2011, 09:15
I have never read so much convoluted tripe in my life.

If you can't justify additional airframe time to the CFO, the company should just combine the CFO/DFO role and get the insurance company to re-do the smoking hole actuarial numbers.

And as milpilot says there is more than enough experience in the gene pool (for the moment) to make this a red herring anyway.

For goodness sake, we will end up with more license types and scales than a garoupa.

Won't be able to give away a sector for any money:ugh:

swh
21st Apr 2011, 11:11
The MPL is already here, KA already have their first MPL pilots being trained in MEL. I know at least one of the trainers in MEL that is doing the KA course at Oxford is a former CX/EK STC.

The HKCAD has set the highest experience level required amongst any ICAO state, specifying 100 more hours of training than ICAO does, it also almost 100 more hours than what CX cadets do in ADL.

MPL training is not cheaper than the traditional cadet route, most of the training is conducted on a level D simulator (twice the cost per hours than a GA twin), with more expensive instructors, however it is quicker. The sim can operate 24/7, and no Wx delays.

The MPL pilot is trained for multi-crew IFR jet operation, including most of the items which were traditionally covered in the SO/JFO line training (eg cold Wx ops). Not a VFR single pilot operation.

A condition of the MPL training is that the course is specific to the airline, and the airline need to continue doing training once they enter the airline. In the CX system, the MPL pilot would need a safety pilot until deemed competent, and also more than likely twice as many base training sessions in the aircraft to get the required number of circuits.

The MPL is an airline pilot apprenticeship, in my view a lot better than the current cadet process. My only “issue” with the CX proposal is that I think these MPL pilots should be doing regional flying getting sectors, if I were the HKCAD I would not let them put them as cruise pilots until their MPL has been converted to a CPL (which is obtained after achieved the required experience for the normal issue of a CPL).

crwjerk
21st Apr 2011, 14:18
Me thinks they'll be having a hard time getting any sectors!!!!!!

GTC58
21st Apr 2011, 14:41
The cruise co-pilot MPL is intended to replace the P2X rating as upgrade times for SO will be soon beyond 5 years time and the P2X rating will expire after 5 years. It also reduces training cost as CX is planning to integrate the SO course as part of the cruise copilot MPL syllabus.

SMOC
21st Apr 2011, 15:59
3 man long haul with two F/Os was never going to work for CX, so guess what they've just turned every S/O into an MPL cruise F/O, bingo CX have done it again. :rolleyes:

Air Profit
21st Apr 2011, 16:46
At least they will all gain another shiny stripe...!! :ok:

GTC58
21st Apr 2011, 20:53
As far as I know the P2X rating is non renewable. Upgrade times to JFO are around 4 years at the moment, with upgrades slowing down due to not enough new hire SOs/cadets getting online. A couple SOs went beyond 5 years on their P2X rating as they left CX and came back, however I don't know how they got around it, but they didn't get upgraded to JFO as this is purely seniority driven.

Who knows if they get the cruise copilot MPL approved, however if they do, expect a long time as cruise copilot as 1 FO per long haul crew would be replaced by a cruise copilot.

SMOC
22nd Apr 2011, 00:10
The 5yr P2X was just a figure, CX already got approval to disregard it from the CAD as times have changed since it's inception.

Gligg
22nd Apr 2011, 03:09
Interesting to read the staff profiles on Cathay's 'meet the people' site Cathay Pacific - Meet the team who go the extra mile to make you feel special (http://www.cathaypacific.aero/people) . They will have to change the pilot stories from 'Flying for the red cross in Afghanistan' 'Worked in the Outback' 'Played cricket with Pygmies' to 'Finished high school and flew a flight sim'

Neptunus Rex
22nd Apr 2011, 05:19
Strikes me that this is just a glorified 'Work Experience' scheme, allowing the airline to pay bottom dollar to place a legally acceptable bottom in the cockpit during the cruise.

Capt Toss Parker
22nd Apr 2011, 07:49
I was in retirement but I can feel a new video coming on ....

MrClaus
22nd Apr 2011, 12:00
SWH, I totally agree with your arguement about the merits of the MPL. But what Cathay is talking about is not a MPL, but a 'cruise pilot' MPL. The article begins with Alan Wilson whinging about having to meet the draconion requirements of the new MPL, which under ICAO rules require at least 220hrs of simulator and aircraft time and I believe under the HK CAD, an even higher amount (which I can't recall right now). Cathay wants to circumvent the MPL with less training, basically a 'son of P2X'. I am glad they missed the boat when the MPL was created as it is apparent the Cathay agenda is to weaken the MPL requirements; which when created were driven by safety and effectiveness, with their insidious agenda of cost cutting.

turnandburn
22nd Apr 2011, 12:14
looks like an certain irish boss was on the money any cabin crew with 3 months flying have the flight time to be a cruise pilot.
6 hours in the seat next to a trainer on a few long hauls who needs sim time, they could still wear the skirts as well.
unfortunately this will be great until one of these guys rolls it upside down and tries a imelman with 15 tons of li ion batteries in the arse,
thread creep have we cornered the market for li ion batts?

to tired to speelll todaaayy

Neptunus Rex
22nd Apr 2011, 13:51
Yo Toss! Bring it on, Big Boy!

cxorcist
23rd Apr 2011, 03:32
CX already has cruise copilots. They are SOs. The only reason the management is weighing in now is because they do not want to be seen in the industry as training cruise copilots at a standard less than the new international standard. This is because CX already trains SOs to a lesser standard than the new MPL requiements.

FlexibleResponse
25th Apr 2011, 11:52
Low experienced and cheaply trained cruise pilots indeed...perhaps we may have to revisit this new philosophy after we learn about what happened to AF447 (operated by very experienced pilots)...

Management faarkwits rolling the dice with passengers lives...just to enhance their own bonus packages...