Tiger Airways may faces being grounded after safety breaches

[JustJoinedToSearch]

BUDGET airline Tiger Airways is at risk of being grounded by the aviation regulator after a series of serious safety and maintenance breaches. In a bombshell for the airline industry, it has emerged the Civil Aviation Safety Authority issued Tiger with a "show cause" notice on March 23. The airline had 21 days to respond.
It is the most serious action taken by CASA against a major Australian airline since Ansett was hit with a similar warning in 2001, just months before it went bankrupt.
The explosive revelation comes as Tiger - which carries about 600,000 passengers a year - and other airlines brace for one of their busiest flying periods, the Easter break.
The Herald Sun has learned that in a sternly worded letter to Tiger's Melbourne-based management, CASA raised concerns the cut-price carrier wasn't following proper procedures to ensure utmost safety of passengers.
The regulator demanded urgent answers amid concerns pilot training standards had slipped and short cuts had been taken on maintenance and other operations.
The airline, which has triggered a price war with Qantas and Virgin forcing them to drop their domestic fares by 30 per cent, is one step away from losing its flying licence.
Since its entry to Australia in 2007, Tiger has concentrated on tourism and undercut its competitors with "special" fares including 1c flights.
But the price war with Qantas, Jetstar and Virgin has sparked concerns that passenger safety and pilot training was taking a back seat to the need to maintain profitability.
Airline industry sources say the sector has been rife with rumours that Tiger "cuts corners".
In a statement last night, Tiger Airways said it "has a policy of not commenting on dealings between the airline and the regulators".
"However, last month, CASA asked Tiger to clarify certain matters, which Tiger has responded to in full," the statement said. "Safety underpins Tiger's operations at all times."
The explosive revelations come at the worst time for the aviation sector with the big players battling soaring fuel costs and predictions of reduced profits.
Queensland's deadly floods and Cyclone Yasi have also triggered a slump in tourism numbers, contributing to the sombre outlook for the airline industry.
The tough market has forced Tiger to defer the introduction of new aircraft to bolster its fleet of 10 planes flying between the major capital cities and tourism havens such as Cairns and the Sunshine Coast.
Tiger's management will almost certainly be dragged before a parliamentary inquiry into pilot training and airline safety.
The Senate committee has heard serious allegations of cost-cutting by airlines - many of which are struggling to stay afloat.
For the past two years, Tiger has been ranked last in the Choice survey of domestic airlines. Its on-time record last year was 72 per cent. It operates about 100 flights a week in Australia but customers have complained of long delays and regular cancellations.
--------------------------------------------------------


This is from the Herald Sun, possibly the worst source of reliable information in existance so take with half a grain of salt.


Having said that, anyone got real facts?


Obviously Tiger don't have Chaimans Lounge:p

edit- I just copied the title straight from the article. Unlike this so called 'journalist' I completed primary school.

[denabol]

Saw this on Business Spectator too this morning however there seems to be more depth on Sandilands about what really happened.

Nothing in the Oz or SMH.

A Tiger hunt is in full cry in Australia this morning | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/04/21/a-tiger-hunt-is-in-full-cry-in-australia-this-morning/)

[waren9]

Its in the news on Ch9 this morning. No new details however.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Tigers spokes-lass on ABC Melbourne radio this morning was far far worse than Oliva Wirth. Memorable highlights included:

"I'm not privy to what the show cause was for"
"I can't tell you anyway as confidentiality applies between Tiger and CASA"
"I'm confident that passengers will vote with their feet" - yes, away from Tiger
"CASA has taken no action" - yes they have, they issued a show cause notice and are still reviewing your response.

And best of all was blaming the senate enquiry for CASA doing anything at all because, well, obviously their is attention on the industry.

UTR

[bogan mover]

Negative publicity(or is it?) but with this sort of propaganda from their arch rivals fueled by concerns that Tiger is actually hurting them, it must be somewhat reassuring to Tiger and its' parents in Singapore that they are on the right track.

[Ndicho Moja]

How is that these things happen to appear just days before one of the busiest period in the aviation calendar year?

[Trevor the lover]

Bogan Mover

What a RIDICLUOUS statement. You are selectively as blind as the pommy management

[ratpoison]

CASA raised concerns the cut-price carrier wasn't following proper procedures to ensure utmost safety of passengers.
The regulator demanded urgent answers amid concerns pilot training standards had slipped and short cuts had been taken on maintenance and other operations.
And yet, the orange cancer with the same issues is left alone. Who mentioned graft and corruption? :confused:

[bogan mover]

You think so trevor? This has got QF/JQ written all over it.

CASA "show cause" over fixable issues has been leaked to the media, then blown out of all proportion.

This is CASAs way of saying to Tiger, start spending money and act like a real airline.

Big political hot potato if CASA grounds them.

Watch what happens to JQ asia in Singapore.

[Fritz Mcleod]

So Bogan Mover, which one is it? "QF/JQ written all over it", or CASA telling them to "start acting like a real airline"?

Typical of Dunnunda: shooting from the hip, lack of logic, contradicting yourself, cynicism...

To think that Tiger even registers on QF's radar is pretty far-fetched. As much as I hate to admit it, even JQ can hold its own against this competition.

The sad part is that QF/JQ/DJ don't even need to drum up propaganda, I'm pretty sure Tiger's PR department and reputation have got that issue sorted.

[bogan mover]

Not a great effort for your first post Fritz.

It's my opinion and it's obviously stired you enough to drag you into a new PPRUNE handle.

From Sandilands link above. Did you get a chance to read it???


That notice, which has now expired, gave the airline 21 days to respond to concerns about short cuts in pilot training and safety procedures in the carrier, ruled out any need for CASA to take immediate action against the airline in the interests of public safety.
This makes the real situation quite different to the suggestions in general media stories this morning that Tiger could be grounded forthwith.

my bolding

And this gem from Fritz....
To think that Tiger even registers on QF's radar is pretty far-fetched.

What rock have you been hiding under. A well publicized fare war has been going on for some time now partly due to Tigers arrival on the Australian scene.

Do you think QF would bother with this if TT wasn't on their "radar"?

[The Green Goblin]

http://www.thepunch.com.au/images/uploads/westie.jpg

Man I'd love to see this pic with a Jetstar or Tiger logo on it and Bali for xxx

[Jethro Gibbs]

To be expected when everything is contracted out to scungy little providers cutting each others costs to nothing.:ok:

[2p!ssed2drive]

Green Goblin
That's possibly some of the funniest $h!t I've ever seen, thanks for the laugh. So typical and so true. LOL

[Trevor the lover]

Yes Bogan, you are EXACTLY right, it IS CASA's way of telling Tiger to spend some money, but to suggest that CASA has reacted to QF/JQ is outlandishly ludicrous.

In response to Fritz you asked "do you think QF would bother with this if TT wasn't on their radar?" Would QF BOTHER WITH WHAT? Are you really suggesting Qanats has organised and rallied CASA to administer a show cause? Mate you don't belong in an adult conversation. Go and switch Play School on mate, clearly more your level. Kep your rubbish off here.

[Capt Basil Brush]

I heard G Thomas on the radio trying to defend Tiger by basically saying a Show Cause Notice is not a big deal, and making it sound like everybody gets them. I think the last time one of the major's got one was Ansett shortly before the downfall.

[Mstr Caution]

Goblin,

Perhaps the caption

"F*^k the star jump, I've just knocked the top off a VB"

[bogan mover]

Trev.
but to suggest that CASA has reacted to QF/JQ is outlandishly ludicrous

never suggested that

In response to Fritz you asked "do you think QF would bother with this if TT wasn't on their radar?" Would QF BOTHER WITH WHAT?

A fare war.

Are you really suggesting Qanats has organised and rallied CASA to administer a show cause?

Again. never suggested that. Tiger are obviously capable of rallying CASA for a show cause without QFs help :rolleyes:

Obviously hit a nerve. No need to bust a vein buddy. As i said. just my opinion and i would expect to be able to express it here and garner intelligent responses from most. you seem to be lacking that ability.

[Tutaewera]

Got to agree with trevor the lover...

I imagine CASA are just sending a message to Tiger's Pommie execs, who if other airlines are anything to go by, may lay the blame on their own troops. I can't imagine KB accepting anything dodgy going on there.

I know some top blokes in Tiger, real professionals. Who spoke highly of the operation and their fellow drivers. So I hope it all works out.

[listentome]

Bogun, there is no conspiracy going on here. QF/VB/JQ couldnt give a rats about Tiger.
They dont compete at all, all they do is open the market to people that wouldnt otherwise fly. Its a flawed model downunder that may work very well in demographicly dense populations such as western europe, south east asia and north america. The model doesnt care much for repeat customers. Unfortunately, the landscape and relatively localised population in 4-5 main centres has not and may not work. I wish them luck as a game changer in this industry was/is needed, however, transposing a model and bringing in a management team that thinks they are still in the UK is probably destined to failure.
I'm not too sure about the safety issues being touted, my opinion is that Tiger are as safe as any other airline in this country. Sure they do things on the cheap, but I would be very surprised if they compromised aviation safety.

[Metro man]

Next time you travel on Jetstar you could be sitting next to these guys.


https://urru2q.bay.livefilestore.com/y1mWKf7dDQpSbKKc4eh7LQV4uyz8BzeFl9lzZ5Wmc90eCFmYNt94ye3esQ6w 0ioV_8A1JyO4mYo3VyKbHSCQo9RCTX27HFa8-SKJcKWEuvRQIV_1P_8ipYJY_IhaqrdYlcANSpjnCnWyzkkMpLmFmv5tg/Chavs.jpg

[mustman]

Isn't that a photo of some of the cadet FOs??:confused:

[Stationair8]

The old slap over the wrist with a wet tram ticket?

[Mstr Caution]

Tiger Airways (http://www.tigerairways.com/au/en/newsroom.php)

I would have thought a comment from Tiger on their website may have been appropriate if they wanted to ensure some forward bookings.

Has Vanessa knocked off early for a long weekend?

[SZR]

From Tiger Tales...Post 787 25/1/11


'Scorcher' wrote....The months ahead will be pivotal for Tiger and potentially a litmus test for the viability of the LCC in Oz.

Consider one view of the current state of play:


Tiger constantly trying to appease an unhappy CASA
A seriously unhappy workforce
A failing EBA for pilots and a non existent EBA for cabin crew
Inevitable industrial action
Questions over engineering capability
Aircraft flying around with up to 3 books of defects
Reports of engineering breaches
No engineering support for fleet during daylight hours except in MEL
A newly acquired British management team with questionable ability and little workforce respect
A new commercial director (Brit on visa) who hasn't shown up for work for over a month and has recently had his visa pulled
The lowest on time performance of any Australian carrier-ever
No safety department for 6 months
Increasing numbers of pilots moving on to other pastures
A new Qld base now on hold
New aircraft for March no longer arriving
A CEO apparently prepared to put ego ahead of sustainable business practice
Operations being hamstrung at dealing with the increasing numbers of latent failures
A ground handling agent unable to provide the required product due cost pressures
Pilots self funding training
Lowest industry pay rates
Lowest industry terms and conditions

And the gory stuff hasn't even started.

Not a pretty picture.


All spot on IMHO

While there are some great guys at TT they are seriously under resourced to the point that they are literally scraping by in their day to day operation, which is obviously not good enough. Its a big letdown for the guys and gals who have trusted their careers with TT.

The only person stopping the whole place from going under is the CP, hence so many cancelled flights due AOG. He is under huge pressure from management to do otherwise, and is to be applauded.Maintenance seriously has to be sorted out and for once I applaud this action as it will for once and for all solve this issue. There is no maintenance cover outside bases and very very suspect stuff going on at base with swapping u/s parts between a/c etc..

However CASA are as usual not solving the problem, but causing it. This operation has been approved by them. They are aware that this is a bare bones operation, grants an AOC then come back to shut it down. typical.



Hope it works out for the better.

[Trevor the lover]

Bogan

Yeah I guess you did hit a raw nerve on me - its the "stupid post" nerve.

You claim you never suggested QF/JQ has had to do with this issue - to quote you - "This has got QF/JQ written all over it."

"As i said. just my opinion and i would expect to be able to express it here and garner intelligent responses from most. you seem to be lacking that ability." Yeah mate, you are entitled to post your opinion, but if you post rubbish about this issue having QF/JQ written all over it then you are gunna get shot down. I reserve the right to take the shot.

Trev

[hongkongfooey]

All the above may be true, but at least it's given guys that were bashing around in chieftains 2 years ago an A320 command :} :suspect:

[Fritz Mcleod]

Ahhh BM,

"New PPRUNE handle"? Check my join date mate. 'Nuff said. But you're right though, the c*@p you were talking DID motivate me to make my first post.

Anyway I'll second/third whatever Trevor said.

Pure gold from the bogan mover. "This has got QF written all over it" then "never suggested that".

BM, I think you might be confusing yourself here. Or you're trolling. If so, well played sir, ya got me.

[SZR]

All the above may be true, but at least it's given guys that were bashing around in chieftains 2 years ago an A320 command

So makes for a very inexperienced crew if coupled with a 320 f/o who was 2 months ago bashing around in chieftains.

Add up all the other issues and its not a pretty picture.

[wheels_down]

This crap has been going on for years, CASA started auditing TT in 2009.

Its a shame that doubts against pilot training is bought up, what alot of sh!t. KB and his pilots are the most professional and experienced group you could come across. Its the experience up front that will put them ahead of any carrier in emergencies. Certainly no dodgy JQ schemes going on here.

What a PR disaster this has become. Perhaps this is the wakeup call Tony needs, start sending some $$ Melbourne way and get the place up to scratch!

SOLUTION: New (another) Managing Director that is not one of Tony's friends.

[bogan mover]

Ahh, i get it. you blokes are convieniently quoting my "qf/jq written all over it" post out of context.

It was a response to Trevs comment on my first post about "negative publicity" and what could be the rivals propaganda machine working the media into a frenzy.

For fark sake, if i have to spell it out for you....the show cause has expired. Tiger still operates. So CASA must be satisfied.

What do you think???? is the media just slightly over-reacting to something that is history already???

Fritz.
Who gives a rats when you registered the name? it's your FIRST post in 9 years. Been waiting a long time with that aye.

[Trevor the lover]

Ok so I get it - your comment "this has QF/JQ written all over it" means the release of the details, not CASA's acting with the show cause, is that right? Well it doesn't read that way mate, but benefit of the doubt to you.

I think that is also highly likely, but not as dumb a statement as JQ/QF caused CASA to react. But I also doubt QF/JQ qould be doing the media releasing - but who really knows - not you or me.

Second issue (not having a shot at you - just playing your statement) Just because CASA ask to show cause and 21 days later Tiger still flies certainly is not proof positive that CASA has been satisfied. Face it, only those on the inside know, and all else is speculation. It is naively simplisitic to apply your argument of "well the're still flying, so CASA must be satisfied."

[Falling Leaf]

As usual for this forum, half this post is moderately interesting, the other half is the typical inane argument between blokes to see who has the bigger dick. Yaawwwn.:ugh:

[Trevor the lover]

All the above may be true, but at least it's given guys that were bashing around in chieftains 2 years ago an A320 command

Dunno about that but it gave a command to a wally who trashed a Cheyanne at West Sale.

[Fritz Mcleod]

"the show case has expired. Tiger still operates"

Tiger flights cancelled after safety concerns | Adelaide Now (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/budget-airline-tiger-faces-grounding-over-breaches/story-e6frea6u-1226042426415)

Probably heard enough from you BM

[Aerolex]

On a higher level guys, I have experienced first hand the corporate tactics Singaporean management in an Australian (takeover) environment. Total contempt for our culture, ethics and I'll even go as far as saying laws.... Trust me, these guys are bad news such as companies like SP Ausnet and Singtel Optus..... Thank god the ASX takeover was quashed ;)

[4dogs]

Bogn Mover,

For fark sake, if i have to spell it out for you....the show cause has expired. Tiger still operates. So CASA must be satisfied.

Love your work! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Now let me see...the Show Cause does not have a life, it is merely a procedural step. Try reading Chapter 6 of:

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/manuals/regulate/enf/009rfull.pdf

So, what has expired is the time to submit a response

and the operator continues to operate while that response is considered

which has absolutely nothing to do with CASA being satisfied, which may take some time and involve multiple elements, sequential targets, lots of money and shetloads of hard work...

Stay Alive,

[hongkongfooey]

Its a shame that doubts against pilot training is bought up, what alot of sh!t. KB and his pilots are the most professional and experienced group you could come across. Its the experience up front that will put them ahead of any carrier in emergencies. Certainly no dodgy JQ schemes going on here.


Sorry Captain deluded, but other than the VB Embraer fleet Tiger would have some of the least experienced drivers in airline ops in Australia. You do realise that just because Tiger has some very experienced drivers, that does'nt actually rub off on the guys with :mad: all experience, don't you ?

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Sorry Captain deluded, but other than the VB Embraer fleet Tiger would have some of the least experienced drivers in airline ops in Australia.If you count anywhere from 5000 to over 12000 hrs - and that's for current FO's on the Embraer, yeah I guess they are inexperienced :}

[Muff Hunter]

i'll give'm a couple of months and the doors will be shut......

jq are training a massive amount of new captains at the moment...me thinks they have heard a whisper and are going to flood the market to prevent another LCC entering the market (air asia?)

[Jethro Gibbs]

What of JHAS in this mess.

[Sunstar320]

Id love to see AirAsia enter this market, CASA would have them banned in their first week :ooh:

You really think Tiger are that bad?, just wait until you see what this Scare Asia mob demonstrate up north :ok:

[AN1944]

Reports have another flight ex mel cancelled faulty windscreen? Having bad hair week ,need new managment and tidy up real quick or kuput<shame real shame:{

[Lookleft]

MH you credit J* with way too much forward planning ability to suggest that they are training Captains because of anything to do with Tiger. They have only announced command vacanies to make up for the numbers they should have had in place already. A lot of Captains in melbourne are starting to run out of hours for the year.

[Donalduck]

I actually had a gentlemen cancel his return flight from Melbourne on Virgin Blue today as he was travelling down on Tiger and was scared to fly with them! Seems the publicity is not doing them any good.
They certainly have had some mammoth delays due to engineering... Today it was over 9 hours but at least they came.

[plainmaker]

And why would he cancel his return VB flight when it's Tiger that has the issues. :confused:

Did you in fact mean 'You had someone on a return VB flight that had cancelled his Tiger flights due concerns'.

Hurray for defined and structured sentences in aviation - we would not want to be misunderstood would we. :rolleyes:

Ducks for cover now due incoming!!!

Plainmaker

[mcgrath50]

Or possibly he was taking a holiday somewhere booked with tiger and coming home Virgin (who was probably cheaper at the time), and now Tiger are so dangerous, he's throwing the baby out with the bath water and not going at all!

[built4flying83]

quote "Sorry Captain deluded, but other than the VB Embraer fleet Tiger would have some of the least experienced drivers in airline ops in Australia".

You do know experience isn't taken into account when being placed on an aircraft type within VB unless you already hold one of the endorsements. I've seen 40yr old guys with 10,000+ hrs go on the Embraer and 25yr old guys with 2500 hrs go on the 737. Just depends on ther timing of entry.

[Donalduck]

Yes... I meant he was throwing the bath water out with the baby...
And another today... wanted to talk to Tiger staff about their flight on the 4th of May... Wanted to ask "Will it still be on, is it safe etc etc"... I took the time to assure the young lady that while nothing in life is certain that I was sure that Tiger would still be operating and that I myself would not have a problem taking a flight with them... and that all airlines can have delays.

[psycho joe]

And another today... wanted to talk to Tiger staff about their flight on the 4th of May... Wanted to ask "Will it still be on, is it safe etc etc"... I took the time to assure the young lady that while nothing in life is certain that I was sure that Tiger would still be operating and that I myself would not have a problem taking a flight with them... and that all airlines can have delays.

So are Tiger Pilot's forced to do ground staff duties?

Or are you ground staff pretending to be a Pilot?

[psycho joe]

So on what basis can you make assertions about the safety and viability of Tiger?

[Hoofharted]

Psycho - Probably on the basis of a "show cause" issued by CASA.

[DeltaT]

On what do you base your assertions of Tiger being safe and viable?


They haven't got a semi-recent history of bits dropping off their planes or catastrophic engine failures unlike a certain other airline?

[gobbledock]

Very intriguing Joe.
Mackay Refueller?
I think that we ought to throw the question over to the Townsville Refueller, he is the font of all knowldege, his input would be correct and wise, his input invaluable !
Then again, perhaps Donalduck read they were a safe outfit when flicking through 'Australian Aviation' magazine ?


They haven't got a semi-recent history of bits dropping off their planes or catastrophic engine failures unlike a certain other airline?
Aagh that old chestnut I see. Because an airline hasn't had a major catastrophe that means they are automaticaly safe ? Old school safety thinking that one.

[Icarus2001]

If you want to ask that question, please start by defining safe.:\

[psycho joe]

Safe enough that.. 'I myself would not have a problem taking a flight with them'...for a start.

[gobbledock]

SAFE -
1. Secure from danger, harm, or evil.
2. Free from danger or injury; unhurt.
3. Free from risk, sure.
4. Affording protection.

[Tutaewera]

Gobbledock, in my view your point is very valid. :ok: However I am curious why Tiger gets a "show cause" with no known serious safety events, whilst JQ nearly crashes an A320 twice in as many years,(MEL G/A & DRW take off), has been found out over serious reporting failures, and now an alleged dodgy cadet scheme etc, and yet they don't get one. (that we know of anyway). Likewise all the QF engineering failures, A330 in flight upsets etc. Double standards perhaps? I wonder if there is some politics behind this that we are unaware of? :confused: Maybe Tiger is just an easier target during the senate do-da?

I still feel that this is about sending a message to the Tiger Execs that they need to resource their airline properly, rather than any immediate threat to passenger safety. And I would imagine the owners will do what ever it takes to save face over this...

[hadagutful]

I'd be amazed if this excuse for an airline is flying much longer, they are a bloody disgrace.

Here's what happened, booked flight YBSU - Melb weeks in advance, then a few days prior the flight simply cancelled to following day. Decided to rebook Jetstar for return trip.
The trip down following day was delayed continuously all day, so we just re booked Jetstar for trip down as well.
Still waiting on refund which will probably never happen.

They are a shambles and I cannot understand how SIA, an efficient and reputable airline can allow what is happening with Tiger. Do they REALLY know what is going on? Must be running at a massive loss, how much longer is SIA going to subsidise it.

Word must be getting around, you would have to be a moron to book with Tiger, shoddy service is one thing but safety is another. I will be sorry for the pilots and staff when the pin is finally pulled.

[denabol]

Reckon we could start a book on whether CASA gets them before the corporate watchdog does.

Tardy Tiger fails to lodge accounts (http://www.theage.com.au/business/tardy-tiger-fails-to-lodge-accounts-20110426-1dv3t.html)

[Mstr Caution]

Perhaps the Singaporeans should be talking to AJ.
I wonder what dollar value could be negotiated on an existing LCC operating in AUS.

[By George]

Just a few facts:

1) SIA is not a majority share holder (34.4%)

2) Other share holders include 'Ryan Asia' (one guess who that is, three goes if you're Irish).

3) The CP is one of the best in the business, very professional and has very high standards.

4) Some of the Capts had wide-body commands when most of the opposition were still wearing short pants.

No I don't work for them and never will but give them a chance, it's still early days. What about the famous Aussie "fair go". These are still Aussie crews just trying to make a living.

[1a sound asleep]

The accounts show a 89.1 per cent surge in Australian revenue compared with a 24.2 per cent rise in costs, slashing 2009's loss of $S58 million ($A43.7 million) to just $S600,000 in 2010.

Read more: Tardy Tiger fails to lodge accounts (http://www.theage.com.au/business/tardy-tiger-fails-to-lodge-accounts-20110426-1dv3t.html#ixzz1KiS1dZ2K)

So an airline that has slashed costs in every department and made huge revenue gains, and should I say prolonged expenditure until the ineveitable, still cant make any money. You really got to ask what the hell they are still doing here

[KRUSTY 34]

Sadly By George we continue to see airlines (we all know the ones) staffed by the most wonderfully professional people, completely let down by equally unprofessional management.

Believe me I hope I'm wrong with this bad feeling I'm getting. It'll do none of us any good of Tiger fails. My guess though, is the CP and his pilots will continue to operate in the most professional manner right up untill the last one out the door turns out the lights! :(

[1a sound asleep]

It'll do none of us any good of Tiger fails. My guess though, is the CP and his pilots will continue to operate in the most professional manner right up untill the last one out the door turns out the lights!

I think if Tiger goes home it will be good for Australian Airline industry. And yes hats off to the crews maintaining Australian professionalism under difficult circumstances

Why Tiger will never make money

1. Australia is long distance territory. This is not SIN-KUL, SIN-DPS
2. We have a mere 22 odd million. Tokyo has 30 million. By comparison more Australians fly than just about any other population, however
3. Australians have been used to a high standard of airline service. On time performance, low cancellation rates, and high service levels including some body you can talk to. Everything Tiger does is the opposite of Australian expectations
4. Tigers model of low cost and no service appeals to the lowest level of Australian society and the ones that you'll never make money out of.
5. Tiger has nothing but low fares. This is the only reason to fly them and as a consequence they have no capacity to increase fare levels
6. Cutting every cost to try and make a profit will bite them hard on the bum with CASA and future costs, which I bet are unprovided for.

Reality is the type of operation that would have worked is a no frills high standard airline like Southwest.

How long will Tiger last in Australia? Likely longer than we may wish as I dont believe they will admit defeat easily

Why would it be good if they do go bust? Those remaining will still fight it out and be competitive BUT will be able to sustain some sensible fare levels of say 10% higher which will secure jobs and growth in the remaining carriers

[apache]

Australians have been used to a high standard of airline service. On time performance, low cancellation rates, and high service levels including some body you can talk to.

Australians must have LONG memories too. it has now been almost 10 yrs since that sort of service was available on one of the duopoly airlines. The day tat AN fell over was also the day that QF stopped any sort of "service".

I think it is time some people stopped "idolizing the roo" and accept that:
a/ they are NOT skygods, and
b/ they will NEVER be the airline they once were.

[galdian]

Unfortunately the posts by KRUSTY 34 and 1a sound asleep, read in conjunction, explain pretty well the OVERALL situation at Tiger Oz.

I have no doubt, or hesitation in saying a high operational standard has been maintained because the guys in the LHS overall have a high level of experience in what their doing, whether you view that on time on type or command experience overall is up to you.
And unless his standards/abilities have decreased over the years - a CP whom many would follow to the end of the earth, some managers most pilots wouldn't follow to the end of a terminal finger.

Huge management (singapore who direct, not Oz who have to react) decisions to be made to decide whether they want Tiger Oz to have a future...or not.

But as always any failure will be anybody's fault...other than the Singers "managers".

Cheers all
galdian

[1a sound asleep]

Safety inquiry to lift lid on Tiger Airways troubles

The Senate committee, which is investigating airline safety and pilot training standards and is due to hand down its report tomorrow, is expected to exercise its powers to force the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to hand over the "show cause" notice — the March 23 letter that outlines its concerns about the airline.

And now, an aircraft maintenance union has accused Tiger of "dodgy" and "unethical" practices after hearing airline crews had been told to turn a "blind eye" to aircraft defects rather than report them — allegations Tiger refutes.


"I've been told by crews that they've been told to turn a blind eye to defects and not record them in the aircraft technical logs," Mr Purvinas said.

Read more: Safety inquiry to lift lid on Tiger Airways troubles (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/safety-inquiry-to-lift-lid-on-tiger-airways-troubles-20110503-1e5zf.html#ixzz1LLl4Ilop)

[6days]

As usual another ill informed beat up!
The quote from Mr Purvinas was from "cabin crew" not just "crew".

"I've been told by cabin crews......" which puts a completly different slant on the article.

[TIMA9X]

As usual another ill informed beat up!troll alert!

[Torqueman]

First of all, cabin crew don't write in the tech log. Secondly, cabin crew should be running any defects past the flight crew to ascertain if they effect safe operation of the aircraft.
6days perhaps you should read more closely.

[The Green Goblin]

Actually, cabin crew have the ability under the CARs to ground an aeroplane with the defect log if they deem it unsafe.

It would not be popular with the Captain or company, but under the CARs they are obligated to.

[Bob Morane]

What are the accusations by the Engineers union based on ? Rumours?
Disgruntled cabin crew ? Hard to imagine this sort of thing in australia ! I understand that Tiger Operations is run by experienced highly
professional people who would not compromise safety for the sake of getting an Aircraft on line. If this turns out to be false, somebody is going to get bitten.

[4dogs]

Green Goblin,

Actually, cabin crew have the ability under the CARs to ground an aeroplane with the defect log if they deem it unsafe.

It would not be popular with the Captain or company, but under the CARs they are obligated to.

Given that you cannot mean CARs 47, 50 or 248, can you just give me a reference for the regulation(s) upon which you rely for your statement?

Stay Alive,

[walaper]

Green Goblin i think you will find the obligation is to REPORT a suspected defect. Since when in ANY airline do cabin crew have access to the tech log. The closest may be a cabin condition log or similar .;)

[otto the grot]

Cabin crew don't ground an aircraft if they "deem it unsafe".

They report the defect to the Cabin Manager who then reports to the Captain, and then if the Captain can't defer the defect with the MEL then HE grounds the aircraft.

Although they often do ground aircraft inadvertantly by not turning up to work :rolleyes:

[Kelly Slater]

Does Senator X still fly Tiger when the price is right?

[Icarus2001]

then HE grounds the aircraft.

Or possibly SHE perhaps?

[43Inches]

The defect grounds the aircraft, not the PIC (Captain) or crew.

It is the flight crews responsibility to enter the defect in the tech log and the aircraft can not fly until the item is fixed, deffered (PUS/MEL) or a dispensation granted.

The PIC always has the right to refuse to operate the aircraft for various reasons this does not mean it's grounded, the defect determines that.

Anyone can ground the aircraft by finding or causing such a defect.

[Normasars]

43 Inches is 100% correct.:ok:

[ozbiggles]

Could the last few posters just have a quick review of what they have been on about.....and then give the rest of us the time back we wasted reading it?

[ozaub]

As an occasional pax on Tiger, what appals me is CASA's secrecy. I need to know what Tiger is (not) doing in order to make an informed judgement whether the cost saving is worthwhile.
In the US, FAA has a much better tool to punish recalcitrant airlines than a secret "show cause" letter. To understand how FAA administers civil penalties and is obliged to publish PROPOSED penalties greater than $50,000 see Fact Sheet &ndash; The FAA and Aviation Civil Penalties (http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=6653). Presumeably CASA did not give Tiger a "show cause" for lesser infringements than those that in the US would rate a $50,000 penalty and well informed adverse publicity.
Instead all we can hope for here is a rigorous Senate Inquiry that inter alia reveals the contents of CASA's "show cause" letter.
BTW long ago when (then) CAA was forced to drop all rules that were more stringent than those in US, I was one of those pleading for Australia to introduce a rigorous system of civil penalties, to keep the airlines honest.

[1a sound asleep]

As an occasional pax on Tiger

Please dont fly Tiger - at least support an Australian owned airline.:ok:

[Sunstar320]

Please dont fly Tiger - at least support an Australian owned airline.:ok:
Those days are long gone my friend...

Qantas to Alice Springs $250....Tiger $50...

I think its about time these Australian owned airlines started supporting us!

[badaz]

I think you will find the Australians are supporting you. Qantas/VA to Alice Springs $250, that is the cost of getting you there whilst abiding with the CAR's with regard to maintenance, 50 bucks well good luck have a nice flight and maybe that's what CASA is trying to save you from.

[ozaub]

Badaz, once up on a time I would have agreed with you. Once up on a time Qantas set and adhered to impecable standards, better than the international norm. You'd be deluding yourself to think it's still true or that it is worth paying extra for Qantas "safety". Read ATSB spills the dirty dishwater on another Qantas drama | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2010/12/13/atsb-spills%C2%A0the-dirty-dishwater-on-another-qantas-drama/) or the ATSB reports on that incident and on Qantas overrun at Bangkok.
In 1990 Qantas was at the forefront of forcing elimination of all rules that were (sensibly) more stringent than overseas. Now, statistically the safest airline in the world is a low cost carrier - Southwest.

[another superlame]

If JHAS is still doing Tigers maintenance, how come they don't seem to have been mentioned in any of the press articles?

[Icarus2001]

Please dont fly Tiger - at least support an Australian owned airline

Let's see...

Qantas...We still call Australia 51% home.

Virgin...Well what about the funds sent to Mr Branson every month?

Rex...Singapore owned

Skywest...Singapore owned

Mmmmm...:eek:

[Cactusjack]

If JHAS is still doing Tigers maintenance, how come they don't seem to have been mentioned in any of the press articles?
Better question would be 'do they need to be mentioned' ?
I would say no at this point. JHAS are a service provider. They only perform the functions that they get paid to do, as organised by Tiger. If for arguments sake Tiger were cutting corners, providing a crappy customer service or even neglecting to comply with all aspects of law and legislation do you blame the Airline (AOC holder) or its third party contractors ? I would point the finger at the AOC holder, and only if the actual third party contractor had buggered up in a major way causing damage or a loss of credibility to the Airline would I then start dragging the third party into the spotlight.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
If the TIGER advertisements in last Friday's Australian are anything to go by, CASA is concerned that Tiger doesn't meet the local industry (CASA directed) norms or level of chairwarmers, and "overheads" drones generally.

ie Administrative services provided (undoubtedly very "economically") from Singapore must be provided locally ????

After all, the CASA statements have said that it is not a matter that is likely to ground the operation, which I presume means that CASA IS satisfied with the day to day operations and maintenance.

Maybe the "compliance issues" are all about the CASA version of compliance with the huge weight of administrative minutiae that is unique to Australian aviation regulation.

Tootle pip!!

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Why is everyone having a go at Tiger...

Come on guys...isn't this exclusively a Qantas bashing forum??? :suspect:

[Bob Morane]

Leadsled, I think there is a lot of truth in your statement..

[600ft-lb]

If JHAS is still doing Tigers maintenance, how come they don't seem to have been mentioned in any of the press articles?

You can't blame JHAS. JHAS do what they're told by their clients. Their major clients are Jetstar, Virgin Australia and Tiger. If they only want a basic A check, that's all JHAS will do. Welcome to the future.

[Scamp Damp]

What is that I hear that tiger cannot carry an assistance dog on board?

Ay truth in this?

[Cactusjack]

What is that I hear that tiger cannot carry an assistance dog on board?

Judging by their clientele the rumour should be more like 'Tiger can not assist any onboard dogs' :E

[B772]

Have heard KB has 'resigned' from the Tiger Australia CP position approx. 2 weeks ago !

[PoppaJo]

So is KB retiring or is he off to Strategic too?