Military Saluting Politicians

[rjtjrt]

In Australia I have noticed a "habit" of military personnel saluting politicians in recent years. Is it a requirement now?
It appears to be standard practice with PM on their so called "Special Purpose Aircraft" (mustn't call them VIP aircraft).
Why has it apparently become standard practice, when did it become standard practice, and who decided it should be?
Does it extend to lower level polies, and their "partners"?
Is it just in Air Force?
Which countries follow this practice, and which do not?

John

[tezzer]

Begs the question as to how many fingers should be used ?

[Blacksheep]

As I recall from days on a VVIP Squadron, the protocol list of people officially classified as "VIP" includes where applicable, the rank equivalence for all VIPs who serve the sovereign under a commission - ministers and ambassadors for example. Saluting is not addressed to the individual holding the post, it is the sovereign, or in the case of Australia their Head of State (Aunt Betty) who is being saluted. Military officers should salute those who are higher in rank or equivalent rank to themselves. So, one trusts that all military officers are fully aware of their position in this complicated hierarchy... ;)

[7x7]

So, are you really asking is whether the First Bloke rates a salute?

[fabs]

I think (not sure) in the UK those entitled to receive a salute on behalf of the Monarch include those on the Privvy Council.

[orgASMic]

One word - courtesy. They are in charge, whatever we might think of them.

[Wensleydale]

One word - courtesy. They are in charge, whatever we might think of them.


It also confuses them as they often don't know how to respond... it can be quite entertaining - especially if you give a good pause at the top of the salute that makes them think that they have to do something back. (and yes, I have once seen one return a salute - very badly).:E

[teeteringhead]

It's all because pollies don't wear hats any more [I blame JFK].

'Tis always good to see Mayors and such at Freedom Parades or whatever raise their feathered tri-corns in response to a salute.

And, as ever, and in general, one defers to Stradling who states:

The present day salute is a symbol of greeting, of mutual respect, trust and confidence, initiated by the junior rank but with no loss of dignity on either side.

[Tankertrashnav]

Wouldn't bother me - I'd have happily saluted the MP for Lesser Splodbury in the Mire if it would have pleased him/her - no skin off my nose.

On a more serious note - would the mods kindly remove that ^^^photo:eek:
I'd just had my breakfast and it made me quite queasy :yuk:


>>>:ok:

Thanks Mods, phew, that's better.

[Laarbruch72]

Why has it apparently become standard practice,

It's always been so, it's not a new thing.

and who decided it should be?

The reigning monarch a long time ago. As Blacksheep rightly says, a PM governs with the monarch's permission so you're saluting Her as much as anything. And as orgasMic says, a PM is the boss. What you think of him is irrelevant, he's a VVIP and he gets a salute.
If it annoys anyone that they're expected to salute the PM, they can always leave and work for a civvy company.

[goudie]

I noticed that most American Presidents know how to return a salute, especially Reagan and the Bushes

[RookiePilot]

Probably because both Bushes, Reagan, and indeed Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon, JFK and many others served in the military, unlike Clinton and Obama.

[Tankertrashnav]

I believe Eisenhower was in the army too ;)

I think Jim Callaghan was the last British PM to have worn uniform (CPO RN IIRC). Rumours that Maggie was once in the SAS have been wildly exaggerated! Not so many MPs now either, although there's that recently elected Labour MP up north somewhere who's a recently retired major.

[Neptunus Rex]

There is another big difference. British and Commonwealth services never salute if not wearing a hat. The cousins do. Most improper.

[Geehovah]

It's always difficult when on exchange in "The Colonies". A failure to return a salute, despite the lack of a hat, can be seen to be disrespectful. As always, you have to gauge the situation and sometimes join in with the crowd! It's often better to be slighly incorrect than to be seen as a d"£K.

I also remember being briefed as a lad that it was appropriate to salute a lady you recognised.

As for politicians, I would always acknowledge a position of trust. As has been said, the salute in military circles acknowledges HM's commission.

[larssnowpharter]

Saluting is a mark of repect for the office not the individual. Simples really.

Recall once, however, being stuck in traffic approaching a roundabout. Funerla cortege coming the other way. I was in uniform and stpped out of the car and saluted as the cortege passed by.

Probably something taught to me at Cranditz.

Don't really recall but seemed like the right thing to do.

[Shack37]

Our instructions were very clear, if it moves, salute it, if it doesn't move, paint it.
Simples.

[kiwibrit]

Not so many MPs now either, although there's that recently elected Labour MP up north somewhere who's a recently retired major.There's the MP for Beckenham (http://www.beckenhamconservatives.com/text.aspx?id=1).

[Blacksheep]

Probably something taught to me at Cranditz. Don't really recall but seemed like the right thing to do. It was explained in Halton that a salute may be offered on occasions when it would be proper to raise one's hat in civilian dress - such as when a cortege passes or when greeting a lady that one recognises. (In uniform the hat should not be removed from one's head). Being a working class 'erbert from oop north, "one" had never encountered such middle class niceties. :)

[MG]

Another ex-military MP for you, this time RAF:

About Me « Jason McCartney MP (http://jasonmccartney.com/about/)

[ZH875]

To the current batch of idiots in the UK Government

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/onefinger.jpg

I salute thee.

[Sideshow Bob]

Ok I'll be the sad tw@t, for those in the RAF it's laid down in AP 818 section 2 chapter 1, it you're at work you can find it HERE (http://www.publications.raf.r.mil.uk/live/ap818/part%202/chp%2001%20-%20paying%20compliments/chp%2001%20-%20saluting.doc)

For those who are not, it's not protectively marked so read on:

1. Saluting is a recognition of the Sovereign's Commission, being indirectly a salute to the Crown through the individual holding the Queen's authority. The Sovereign is paid the highest compliment, the Royal Salute. Because of their link with the Sovereign, the following are also paid some form of compliment:

a. Members of the Royal Family.

b. Governors and Ministers to whom the Sovereign delegates authority.

c. Formed bodies of troops on the Sovereign’s business.

d. All Colours and Standards of the Royal Air Force and their equivalent in the Royal Navy, Royal Marines and Army.

e. All Officers, as holders of the Sovereign’s commission.

2. In origin, the salute with the hand, the Present Arms, and the salute with the sword were methods by which the person paying the compliment could show the person to whom that compliment was paid that no offence was meant. They are all gestures symbolic of loyalty and trust. Saluting represents the fundamental values of the Royal Air Force and it is the responsibility of all personnel to ensure that it is carried out correctly.

3. Personnel are to salute with the right hand unless physically unable to do so, in which case they are to salute with the left hand.

OCCASIONS FOR SALUTING

SALUTING BY NON-COMMISSIONED PERSONNEL

4. Personnel are to salute commissioned officers of the Royal Air Force, the Royal Navy, the Royal Marines, the Army, Commonwealth and Foreign Services at all times, and at any time when they recognise officers who are dressed in plain clothes. A list of comparative ranks of the 3 services is contained in Annex A.

5. An individual is to salute 3 paces before passing an officer, at the same time turning the head smartly in the direction of the officer. The salute is to be finished on the third pace after passing the officer, by smartly lowering the hand to the side and turning the head to the front.

6. When the individual is not wearing head-dress or is carrying anything other than a weapon, which prevents saluting, the head is to be turned smartly towards the officer being passed. When stationary the individual is to stand to attention as the officer passes.

7. A non-commissioned person when approaching to address an officer is to halt 2 paces from the officer, salute and then address the officer. Personnel take their leave by saluting again before turning to withdraw. No backward step is taken before saluting.

8. On entering a room personnel are to salute entitled officers as usual; they are also to salute before leaving the room. Personnel are to remain standing until given permission to sit by the senior person present. Head-dress is not to be removed until permission is given. However, if the senior person has already uncovered it is appropriate for male personnel to remove their head-dress when permitted to sit. If the senior person remains covered, then all present are to follow suit. Head-dress is to be replaced on rising to leave.

9. An individual carrying a weapon and approaching to address an officer is to halt 2 paces from the officer before saluting with the weapon in accordance with the procedures detailed in Part 1 Chp 5 Lesson 19. Before turning to withdraw the individual is to take leave by saluting for a second time. No backward step is taken before saluting.

10. A stationary individual, on seeing an officer approaching is to stand at Attention, face the officer and salute when the officer is 3 paces away. The salute is to finish and the hand returned to the side after a pause equal to 5 paces. When personnel are sitting or standing together, the senior person present is to stand facing the officer and call the whole party to Attention before saluting.

11. An individual standing with a weapon is to turn towards an officer and salute as detailed in para 9. The actions to be taken when an individual carrying a weapon is passing an officer are detailed in Part 1 Chp 5 Lesson 21.

12. Personnel in a group already being addressed by an officer or NCO are not to take individual action to salute another officer; the responsibility lies with the senior person present who will give orders as appropriate.

13. When a number of personnel are walking together as individuals, they are all to salute when passing an officer; however, when they are being marched in a party it is the responsibility of the senior person to give orders as appropriate.

SENTRIES

14. Instructions on saluting by sentries are given in Part 3.

CADETS

15. Cadets are subject to the same regulations for saluting as airmen.

SALUTING BY OFFICERS

16. Officers using the salute to pay compliments are to salute in the same way as airmen. Officers are to return all salutes made to them.

17. Officers below the rank of squadron leader are to salute officers of and above that rank. Officers of the rank squadron leader and above are to salute their superiors in rank. Officers of all ranks are to salute their superiors before addressing them formally whilst on duty (eg on a parade). There is no regulation or custom which calls upon an officer to salute an officer of junior rank, such as when entering or leaving an office; however, it is common courtesy for an officer to salute when entering or leaving the office of another officer of equal rank.

18. Officers are to salute those officers of the Royal Navy, the Royal Marines, the Army, Commonwealth and Foreign Services who would be saluted by officers of corresponding rank in those Services.

19. When a number of officers are together it is the responsibility of the senior officer present to return a salute. If the senior officer fails to see the salute it is the duty of the next senior officer in the party to acknowledge it.

20. Officers who are on parade with armed men are to salute with the hand, or with swords if already drawn. In either case officers are to time their movements to start and finish with the respective movements of the armed personnel.

OFFICERS IN ATTENDANCE

21. Officers in staff attendance are not to salute when a national anthem, royal or general salute is played for the VIP or other officer upon whom they are in attendance.

WEARING PLAIN CLOTHES

22. When wearing plain-clothes personnel are to pay and return compliments by raising the hat. If not wearing head-dress personnel should pay compliments as laid down in para 6.

ROYAL AIR FORCE ENSIGN

23. On occasions when the Royal Air Force Ensign is being hoisted or lowered at a Royal Air Force establishment all ranks within view of the ensign or within hearing of the Alert call (whistle) are to face the flagstaff and stand to attention, officers only are to salute. These general rules are to be applied by the Air Training Corps in relation to their Corps' ensign.

COLOURS AND STANDARDS

24. The colours and standards of all Services are entitled to the highest compliments. Full details of compliments to be paid in respect of colours and standards are given in Part 2 Chp 12. The basic rules to follow are:

a. Formed bodies will Present Arms, or if on the march and passing stationary colours or standards will give: “EYES RIGHT/LEFT”.

b. Individuals and groups of personnel who are not formed up for parade, will halt, face passing colours or standards and salute, or if passing will salute to the right/left.

c. A cased colour or standard is not saluted; however, the bearer is to be accorded compliments as appropriate.

BANNERS

25. These general rules are to be applied by the Air Training Corps in relation to their Corps' banner.

GUARD SALUTES

26. Personnel are to stand to Attention when a guard salute is being played.

NATIONAL ANTHEMS

27. When the National Anthem or a foreign national anthem is played formally, compliments are paid as follows:

a. When on Parade in an Organised Party. If on the move, parties should be halted. All ranks will be at Attention, but only officers and warrant officers salute. NCOs will only salute if they are in charge of an organised party.

b. When not on Parade but in Uniform. All ranks will stand to Attention facing the required direction and, if wearing uniform head-dress, salute.

c. When not on Parade and in Plain-Clothes. All ranks will stand to Attention. Men wearing head-dress are to remove it; women do not.

d. Officers with Drawn Swords. They will stand at the Carry.

e. Sentries. They will Slope Arms.

f. When in a Building. Individuals are to stand to Attention and do not salute unless otherwise ordered.

SALUTING BY OFFICERS IN COMMAND

28. An officer commanding an armed party is to return the salute of an NCO IC of an unarmed party, but is not to call his armed party to Attention.

29. When in command of either an armed or unarmed party officers are to salute superiors under the usual rules.

UNARMED PARTY

30. Unarmed parties passing each other are to be called to Attention and the officer or NCO IC then orders the Eyes Left/Right if appropriate.

PARTIES ON THE MARCH

31. The commander in charge of a party on the march is to pay compliments by giving the command: “EYES RIGHT/LEFT” and is to salute at the same time. These compliments are also to be paid when the party passes an armed sentry. If the sentry is unarmed, no compliments are to be paid.

COMPLIMENTS BY UNITS

32. A unit is to be ordered to Attention by its commander when passing or being passed by:

a. Members of the Royal Family.

b. Armed parties on the march and commanded by an officer.

c. Guards, escorts etc.

d. Officers of air rank and those of equivalent rank in the other 2 Services (see Annex A).

33. When persons who are entitled to a salute approach from the rear, unit compliments are not to be given, but officers are to salute. This procedure does not apply to members of the Royal Family for whom units are to be ordered to stand at Attention and pay the usual compliments.

COMPLIMENTS TO MEMBERS OF THE ROYAL FAMILY

34. A unit on the march, meeting a Sovereign when accompanied by an escort on an official or state occasion, is to be halted and turned towards them and when under arms is to be ordered to present arms.

35. A unit on the march is not to halt and present arms to a Sovereign when the personage is travelling in a motor car, unless previous warning has been given of the approach. Instead, the compliments are to be given, with arms carried at the slope, by the Eyes Left/Right. Compliments to other entitled persons are to be given in a similar manner.
VEHICLES

36. The rider of a cycle or driver of a vehicle is not to salute when the vehicle is in motion. When stationary, the driver is to salute by turning the head smartly towards the officer passing. The hands are always to remain in the steering position.

37. Personnel, when seated in a vehicle, are to sit to Attention; they are to look straight to their front.

38. Officers, when seated in a vehicle are, if possible, to pay compliments with the hand otherwise, if driving, they are to follow the procedure in para 38.

39. Personnel are to salute the entitled occupant of a vehicle flying a distinguishing flag, showing starplates or in any case when they recognise the occupant as being entitled to a salute.

SHIPS

40. Royal Air Force personnel are to conform to Royal Navy customs on saluting in ships.

41. Boarding or leaving Ship. When boarding or leaving any of HM ships or a foreign warship, it is naval custom for all personnel to salute individually as they board or leave. In this case it is also custom for personnel to salute the ship with the hand, in the usual fashion, when bareheaded or in plain clothes.

42. Quarterdeck. When stepping onto or off the quarterdeck it is naval custom to salute each time.

FUNERALS

43. Personnel are to salute the coffin when passing a funeral cortege.

WAR MEMORIALS

44. It has always been customary for Service personnel to salute as they passed the Cenotaph in Whitehall. This tradition is embodied in orders to this effect, issued by the General Officer Commanding London District. Royal Air Force personnel are to conform to this custom.

45. Personnel are to conform to local custom with regards to courtesy salutes at ceremonies at other memorials. The general rule is that uniformed officers and warrant officers are to salute when the Last Post is played, but not during the Reveille. Other ranks are to stand to Attention throughout.

[Tankertrashnav]

Well that's all perfectly clear then!

[radar101]

1. Boarding or leaving Ship. When boarding or leaving any of HM ships or a foreign warship, it is naval custom for all personnel to salute individually as they board or leave. In this case it is also custom for personnel to salute the ship with the hand, in the usual fashion, when bareheaded or in plain clothes.


Now that is one I didn't know - a salute when bareheaded

r101

[radar101]

38. Officers, when seated in a vehicle are, if possible, to pay compliments with the hand otherwise, if driving, they are to follow the procedure in para 38.



This para obviously left in to amuse Rocks - should keep them busy all day!

[I'm Off!]

That bit might be listed in AP818, but it's horse****. Normal procedure when bare-headed would be to come to attention on embarking or disembarking the ship (on the brow/gangway),but certainly not to salute when bare-headed.

[ian16th]

Is Anthony Wedgewood-Benn, Lord Stansgate, Tony Wedgewood-Benn, Tony Benn, he of the ever shrinking name, and former LAC, still in Parliament?

[The Old Fat One]

If it annoys anyone that they're expected to salute the PM, they can always leave and work for a civvy company.


Why so drastic?

There were many things that annoyed me in the military and many ways for me to rationalise them without giving up my career.

I never saluted an MP, any other dignitary or a bl**dy car for that matter. Got bollocked a few times. So what?

Some rules are simply there for our amusement...this is probably one of them.

PS

I once got bollocked (as a Flight Looey) by OC PMS outside the gym at Kinloss for kissing goodbye to my missus. I couldn't say squat but it was hilarious watching him squirm as she told him to *** * ******* life.

[Pontius Navigator]

Sideshow Bob,

Now I wish I had known that back in 1967 at the Depot.

Out the corner of my eye I noticed a slight flutter followed by:

"YES SIR, I AM SALUTING YOU SIR."

This from a venerable WO some 20 paces off to the side. More than 3 paces and I was not approaching him. Mind you I would not have had the nerve to tell him off.

[Tankertrashnav]

This para obviously left in to amuse Rocks -


I didnt find it remotely amusing, Radar :suspect:


TTN (Rock in a former incarnation) ;)

[Azrael229]

If I may, I was wondering - There are members of the Royal Family mentioned many times in the above document. How it's solved when one of them is actually in uniform and not of the highest rank - like currently the young princes? Is it by some other regulation that they are not treated like Royal Family then?

[Melchett01]

And, as ever, and in general, one defers to Stradling who states

At the risk of appearing completely ignorant - or just a young whipersnapper -who or what is 'Stradling'? Is it some sort of predecessor to Debretts?

[Willard Whyte]

Slow day at work Bob?

Reading that list it's no wonder people try to park close to the doorway of the building where they work.

Anyhoo, I'm always assiduous in paying complements:

"has ma'am lost a little weight/had her hair done", etc...

[500N]

Stradling wrote a book called about - just looking up the exact name - "Customs of the services : being helpful hints and advice to those newly commissioned / by A.H. Stradling."

.

[Samuel]

Stradling wrote a book called about - just looking up the exact name - "Customs of the services : being helpful hints and advice to those newly commissioned / by A.H. Stradling."
.

Good grief but you know you're ancient history when people ask who Stradling was!

[500N]

"Good grief but you know you're ancient history when people ask who Stradling was!"


You can thank a long serving Officer over here, Ex RSM promoted Capt who
was a bit of a mentor when in the ranks and after Officer training, pointing me in the right direction.

I recognised the name "Stradling" and knew it related to something I had read / looked at.

.

[Laarbruch72]

How it's solved when one of them is actually in uniform and not of the highest rank - like currently the young princes?

They are saluted as they're commisioned officers. They're also saluted because they're Royal princes. Nothing to solve really.

(However, they don't get a "double Rimmer" for qualifying twice). ;)

[Willard Whyte]

However, they don't get a "double Rimmer" for qualifying twiceAllegedly at least one member of the Royals will be disappointed not to receive a double rimmer.

I'm not sure if it has anything to do with today's news that Ms Middleton's ring has been tightened.

[NutLoose]

Obviously Officers do not read past para 38 as it puts them in a Groundhog Day Scenario LOL

38. Officers, when seated in a vehicle are, if possible, to pay compliments with the hand otherwise, if driving, they are to follow the procedure in para 38.



39. Personnel are to salute the entitled occupant of a vehicle flying a distinguishing flag, showing starplates or in any case when they recognise the occupant as being entitled to a salute.


Must of been pretty busy Saluting when the World cup was on ;)


43. Personnel are to salute the coffin when passing a funeral cortege.


Should that not read when the cortege is passing you???? Or is one supposed to run along side it and throw one up? it even reads like a bowel movement.