SA training questions (merged)

[Murray_NN]

I was wondering how safe it is to train in South Africa?

How safe is the area around the popular schools?
(I wont be kiddnaped or anything?)

How good is the maintenance of aircraft?

I'm looking for a good flying school so I can build some hours. Do you know a school with a good reputation in SA?

[Atlanta]

Like you, I'm interested in doing some of my flying training in SA eventually.

My own enquiries suggest there is little possibility of experiencing violence in the areas of the FTOs. The violence in SA seems to be confined to the inner cities. Hence, providing you take the advice of the locals on where to go and where not to go, you should be alright from that point of view.

My own reservations about SA are about other things. Firstly, the falling value of the Rand. For some time now, the Rand has been at the rate of about 11 to £1. Damn good value for the UK pilot.

Just recently, however, this exchange rate has fallen to anything up to 16 Rands to the £1, despite the fact that SA has a strong and thriving economy.

At first, one may be inclined to say 'whoopee'. However, this just isn't healthy. It means all imports to SA are going to be extremely expensive, (e.g. aircraft spares) and the income of south africans (in an economy that earns much of its income from exports) is bound to suffer badly. Bearing in mind the low average income of the average south african, this could destabilise the country if it is allowed to continue unchecked.

My other concern is about treatment in the event of an accident. You may be injured, say in something as mundane as a road traffic accident, and need a blood transfusion. One wonders whether blood supplies in a country with the worst AIDS epidemic in the world can be relied upon to be safe.

Finally, one of the nicest things about training in SA is the possibility of flying long, long cross country flights. Presumably, these flights must take place over large tracts of open country where drinking water is scarce and inhabited in at least some places by potentially dangerous animals.

In the event of having to make a forced landing in open country, therefore, I wonder what survival provisions and training the FTOs provide to ensure you come back alive?

Best regards,

[Gedifroggy]

Your question: I think the best is to phone to your embassy/Consulate in Pretoria. On the french side (Consulate), I have got this optimistic information: "soma areas must be avoided absolutely, but most of the country is normal. The situation (criminality) seems to evolve on a good slope since a couple of years, however most of the problems are arising from the consequence of a degrading economic situation and not from ethnic problems."
Cheers

[Gedifroggy]

A little more details, health services are considered as good (western level). In general,level of life is cheaper than Europe . South Africa is an oil producer (covering partly its needs) and exporting gasoline to its neighbours(- particularly-converting coal in gasoline). Don't forget the importance of fuel in the cost of a flying hour.
These are information I succeed to get from the web site of my consulate.
For more details...E-Mail me.
Cheers.

[ 20 January 2002: Message edited by: Gedifroggy ]</p>

[mickey mouse]

Um hi, not wanting to completely put you off or anything, but I am South African.
The crime is well...very bad in all parts, its just worse in some parts thatn the others. However crime is not confined just to the city centres! DO NOT BE FOOLED!

What I can tell you is that the crime is less bad near the areas of Cape Town and Durban, than in Johannesburg. A good school to go to would be 43rd Air school, they have a website, can't remember what it is but if u search for it you will find it.

Genreally the standard of flying is to a very high standard (an It has been kow for South African piltos and engeneers to be well sought after, Especially SAAF pilots and engeneers...SAAF standing for South African Air Force)

The rand is currently around R18 to your £1 which is very good!

Also I would say that you do want to be careful what you do and where you go, try hook up with some of the SA guys at the school, they will give u the best gen. about that sorta stuff.

Good luck though and if u have anything u want to ask me feel free, just send me an email or something.

RAF TopGun

[Murray_NN]

Thank you very much for your informative replies.

I was looking at 43Airschool and they seem to be very well layed out.

By the way their web-site is <a href="http://www.43airschool.com" target="_blank">www.43airschool.com</a> if anyone need it.

Thanks again!

[Island Hopper]

What's Cape Flying Services like?. .Anyone been there?

[USE THE RUDDERS]

I completed all of my CPL training in SA last year with a few other Brits in the Jo'burg area and none of us had any problems,but as long as you stay alert and use a bit of common sense and avoid no go areas you should not have any problems.. .We were lucky in that we have a good bunch of locals to look after us and show us around.. .With the falling Rand SA presents an excellent place to train with high standards of instruction.. .The country is excellent for cross countries with stunning scenery and the opportunity for cross border flights.. .I'm heading back out this week,please feel free to email if you have any questions

UTR

[Atlanta]

First of all, thank you everybody for all the useful information.

[Chris2]

I did all my training at 43 and can recommend them. The school has excellent facilities and the environment and scenery in which you fly are fantastic. Also the Eastern Cape is relatively unaffected by crime.. .Good luck. .Dutchie

[big bus driver]

I've heard 43 are good too. I finished off my PPL at Algoa FC, in Port Elizabeth. Nice, friendly city, spent quite a bit of time there and never had any trouble - apart from a taxi-driver who tried to take me the long way round town!

. .Airport is within 20 or so mins walk of the beach / city centre / all accom, which is why I go there (so dont have to pay for car hire)

Theres another club at PE too but I cant remember its neme, sorry. Try aeropages.co.za (I think!) for links to SA FTO's.

Cheers,. .BBD

[albi]

Help!! I am looking to start my CPL and I am looking at a school in South Africa called CFS It seems a bit too good to be true being able to pass my CPL for only £12,500 compared to around £50K here (UK) I am just completing my PPL and am looking for advice, is it too good to be true or am I worrying about nothing and should I go for it??

[ducksoup79]

Hi albi

I have completed my CPL,IF,ME at Cape Flying Services and I am now busy with my instructors rating. I can recommend the school for the following reasons: 1.The flying in South Africa is allot cheaper than it is for you guy's back in the uk,FACT. 2.Cape Flying Services is situated at the perfect airfield for ppl and cpl, it is a small airport with IF facilities (VOR,NBE,ILS). In other words you can get all your training at one airport, that is not too busy,making the most of your flying hours that you have paid for.3. The school is fair and just, if you stuggle a bit on one aspect of flying, they will do their best to help you.4.And one of the most important aspects of a good flying school,ALL the students get along with one another, we are all good friends and participate in social events like soccer,cricket and adventure activities. We also have regular "Braai's" (barbaque or whatever you call them) where everybody get together and talk about chicks and flying. We work hard during the week but take time out over the weekends. I can reccomend this school to everybody,it is a good all rounder.

[ducksoup79]

hey what can you say, africa is a tough place

I have recently completed my CPL,IF,ME with Cape Flying Services,George,South Africa, and i don't have any complaints at all,they are exellent.

Don't worry about the exchange rate,get a qoute from a school, that would be fixed for the period on the contract. Say for instance you get quoted R180 000 for a PPL,CPL,IF,ME. That contract would stand for a period of 9 months, depending on the school. A good school would extend that period for unforseen events like bad weather or downed aircraft. I know a bloke that completed his PPL,CPL,IF,ME at Cape Flying Services in 7 months!! This proves that it can be done through allot of hard work and determination.

On the subject of safety, South African search and rescue is world class, that is why you file a flight plan for cross country flights. If you don't pitch at the airfield at a certain time, they will come and look for you.

Crime is relevant, it can happen to anybody. If you enrol for a course at a flying school, you will easily make friends and they will show you around and get you streetwise. We alway's go out in groups and you will soon see that it is alright to go out by yourself.

[Whirlygig]

Is this a record for thread revival - 3.5 years?

Anyway, I did some JetRanger training in Durban recently with NAC and couldn't recommend them highly enough. Professional instruction (mind you, he was ex British RAF!), well-maintained aircraft and a great bar in the Durban Wings Club!

You do have to be more safety conscious; drive with your doors locked and windows up. Never have your mobile phone on display. Don't stop at traffic lights to buy pink coathangars or bin liners (those who have been there will now what I mean!).

Cost of living is dirt cheap. It's only unfortunate that the CAA do not have any agreements with any of the schools there to provide JAA training (certainly that is the case for helicopters; not sure about fixed wing) otherwise I would go there like a shot to do my CPL(H).

The weather in Durban is among the best you find and.....as they say.... another **** day in Africa!

Cheers

Whirlygig

[Bomber1000]

Hey.

Go to 43.

Very very high standard, very proffesional, very enjoyable, very safe, very cost effective plus an experience you will never forget. No I don't work for them but I did train with them (PPL).

Check current conversion requirments to JAR before you go, they changed a few years back. I won't pass much of a comment on them other than they presume because you trained SA you learned in a tin can and haven't got a clue, very unfair I'm affraid! In my opinion I found standards out there to be as demanding/stringent if not more so than here (UK).

Good luck.

[VisaGeeza]

My experience of SA was very favourable, I went glider flying so engine failure every trip! forced landings onto very quiet roads are no problem, long straight roads like runways and visible for miles! The problem with field landings are the crop and even worse, termite mounds (like concrete) and ardvark holes!

Going out at night, very cheap and providing you go out in a crowd, no problems although low gear towards trffic lights to ensure no full stop is recommended! Don't engage in conversation with strangers except in "safe" places and never accept "guides" all the usual street wise stuff really! Traffic accidents are the biggest cause for concern, the road death toll in SA is measured in thousands! and driving can be an "experience" Keep away from the black townships, it is unlikely that you will be welcome anyway! Apart from that, a superb country! Oh and the seasons are upside down, summer here, winter there!

Oh and like somebody else says, HIV is a major consideration, leave the wildlife alone!:p

[porridge]

Albi
Two things - check out the threads in African Aviation on CFS; then secondly, whatever you do don't pay any agent up front for anything. In fact don't pay anyone anything up front.
Apart from that SA is a great place to fly and the training standards on the whole are good.
Happy flying, P

[Philip_123]

Hi, it sounds good and I've visited their web site. But what's the price about for a CPL+instrument rating+instructor rating?

Thanks a lot

[George Tower]

Hi Guys

Might be stating the obvious but it will be a South African CPL/IR that you get. £12,500 seems cheap with the rand at current levels but yes it is still tons cheaper than back in blighty.

In order to convert to the identical JAR licence you will have to spend about anothe £12K by the estimates I have seen as well as writing all 14 ATPL subjects.

By the way if you're considering SA as a place to fly check out the flying schools in Port Elizabeth - it's windy but probably the best place to learn to fly. Cape Town is great but too busy.

By the way for the record I learnt to fly at George but not CFS

;) . George is a good environment - Controled airspace but not that busy. Personally both schools in George could be better IMHO. Done all my flying out of CT since then. Love it but you can spend ages on the ground taxiing/holding. PE is in my view the best compromise plus all the schools have a good reputation there.

BTW if you read the thread on CFS I wouldn't take it too seriously. Whatever you do use pprune to get feedback from people and make an informed choice. You might want to check out www.avcom.co.za - local SA version of pprune more geared to GA but a good source of info.

Rgds

GT

[Phoebe Buffet]

Albi: I suggest you do a 'reccie' trip to SA and check out a few schools. I know it sounds expensive (approx $350 for return airfare, however accom and food and intercity travel is cheap in SA) but that is the only way you will find a school that suits you.

SA has fantastic flying and gave me my start in aviation - I later converted to JAA ATPL .

Whatever you decide I wish you the best.

[Phoebe Buffet]

Its as safe as anywhere these days if you take sensible precautions like locking cars and houses windows etc etc. I never drove anywhere near the 'dodgy' areas in Joey and always rented accom with panic buttons and guards which is standard.

Just common sense really.

Fantastic flying:- south is extremely beautiful with mountains desert and whale watching, east also great Durban really fun place and Joey good experience for traffic and ATC.

[scroggs]

To drag up one 3-year-old topic is unusual; to drag up two on the same subject is wasteful. Hence the merge.

Scroggs

[birdlady]

All very sensible advice. I did my PPL here in SA and am currently in the middle of my exams for CPL. With regard to crime - common sense prevails but just a few other pointers. If you need a car, find the dodgiest looking car you can (but still goes and wont break down) Ive had 2 attempted hijackings already and both times were not in my old banger but someone elses nice car. :( :( If you go out at night, go out as a group and get one person to drive. The more people in the car the less likely your going to get hijacked. It happens everywhere, not just the bad areas and even during the day. Always be aware. Dont worry about the wild animals its the two legged ones you have to be aware of. At night, just be aware that you dont have to stop for a red light after a certain time. (check coast is clear but not everyone does this).
Other than that Sa is great to train and very cheap in comparison. Ive heard excellent reports about 43 (if a little pricey) and Algoa. www.avcom.co.za is an excellent site.

:ok: :ok:

[Gunship]

Just for the ill-informed : I do not deny that there are no crime - there are (same as everywhere in the world I have been).

To say It happens everywhere, not just the bad areas and even during the day. is false and a miss - conception created in SA.

Touch wood (and I am sure we are blessed but we are not the only one's).

All our family lives in Pretoria - Midrand and Johannesburg. Me and the wife together have 11 brothers and sisters. Our parents still lives in Pretoria. We have - what can I say quite a large friendship circle coming over 45 years -I am talking 100's of people from various parts of the country and various walks of live.

We have not had a single (yes not ONE) serious crime of ANY nature on any of our family members or friends - not one !!! Think about that afte ryou read above.

False : Joey and always rented accom with panic buttons and guards which is standard.

What bull ! Between ALL these people (including millionares and multi-millionares and some living in so -called crime hot spots) - not ONE has a guard "as standard".

Yes at shops / factory sites etc we have security guards (same as rest of the world) but at houses - what utter bull !

Sorry just had to put it in record.

Enjoy South Africa - it is a great place with great people - just stay out of known crime - areas - same as you do in London / NY / wherever ... be alert and that is it.

Cheers,

Gunsss

[Ibanez]

Gunsss, I wish I could agree with you on that, but sadly, everyone seems to touch wood untill it happens to them one day, and then you realise that the crime issues are for real. I was involved in an armed robbery (on the victim side!) in an upper class restaurant in Midrand. Like you, I have friends and family all over South Africa, and unfortunately we were not as lucky as your family. That, together with the current state of the SAAF, has pushed me north of the equator, and I'm not looking back.

SA is a beautiful country with BEAUTIFUL woman and it's cheap to get into the air. However, to anyone attempting to fly in SA, my personal recomendation would be to stay out of the Midrand, Johannesburg and Pretoria area and look further south towards the Cape. If you ignore the wind - the Cape grows on you!

Just my pennies worth - I. :ok:

[porridge]

Sorry Gunss as an ex Jo'eys resident of most of my teens and adult life I have to agree with Birdlady and Ibanez; Gauteng is not a place I'd relish going back to. As for flying and personal safety I much prefer the Eastern Cape and Cape Town area compared with 'Gangster Paradys'as Leon Shuster so aptly calls it!

[Gunship]

Gents and lady,

I do not wnat to distract from the question re SA training and therefore my last post on the issue.

All I wish to say is not to generalise the issue.

Maybe we are overblessed - maybe we are just too careful or just purely good luck.

As I said - we are the only family members that lives outside Gangtsers paradise) - yes we live in the Cape.

My sister works in Midrand - she is beautiful - drives a hot liitle car - phoning while she drives - leaves handbag on the seat - I have seen it - touch wood nothing.

I went as far as asking all our family members (11 + 4 adults) if they know or have been directly involved in serious crime.

The same sister said a colluege (?spelling) was held at gunpoint and her car taken away plus money and her cellphone.

Stangely she was black and it happened in Sandton during the day in a parking lot.

Yes call it luck or whatever - I really feel sorry if you have been hit my crime and I know we are blessed but do not generalise things and come up with bull like "Guards that are standard".

I will however override my one statement - yes I know one person that had a guard and that was that . Yes he was Sir Mark - now moved.

New people in the house and the "guardhouse" are empty :8

Cheers and good luck to those that want to come - you will not be sorry. Just go to a reputable school. I personally would have chosen George or 43 air school or Stellenbosch.

Gunss

[silverknapper]

Guns

Any chance you are just a bit biased. To suggest that Jo'burg/midrand are places with normal crime levels is ludicrous.
Yes at shops / factory sites etc we have security guards (same as rest of the world) Maybe shopping centres here have guards but they sure as hell don't carry shotguns.
but at houses - what utter bull Perhaps individual houses don't, but they are inside walled compunds with guards and regular patrols. The house I lived in in Midrand had electric fences and guards. Ask my fellow student who was hit over the head with an iron bar for his shoes.
Stay out of known crime areas is good advice - unfortunately that applies to Gauteng. Get down to the coast instead.

[Gunship]

Again wise words ... Stay out of known crime areas is good advice - unfortunately that applies to Gauteng.

It is people like this - that think because they are white / european and that they can roam the streets that gives us a bad name with crime.

Come on ... I will not walk around the Getto's .. so why do people not listen ?

Belgium Girl Gang Raped in Black Township (http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1755476,00.html)

SK - ok then your house is the second one with a guard (other than Ministers and so on) that I know off.

Seen security guards with guns throughout the world mate.

Call me biast what you want - I am also a realist and do not believe in all I read online or in a newspaper.

BAd news sells !

[silverknapper]

It is people like this - that think because they are white / european and that they can roam the streets that gives us a bad name with crime.

So are you saying we shouldn't be able to walk the streets without worrying about being beaten over the head with an iron bar for our shoes?
The reason you have a bad name for crime is because you deserve it - nothing else. Most people I know over there accept this and are honest with people about the FACTS. There are exceptions to every rule.

[Leezyjet]

I did my PPL at Algoa at Port Elizabeth back in March/April.

Couldn't recommend them enough. Great club, great bunch of people too, with plenty of drinking after hours in the Gremlin's Grotto.

The flying is good, flying from a 'proper' airport mixing with commercial traffic, but it's not so busy that you spend ages holding like at CPT. Circuit is usually pretty quiet too unlike the dedicated training airfields like Port Alfred etc.

The location is pretty good, with weather similar to a UK summer and it's a good place to get used to x-winds too.

:)

[Hobgoblin]

I am looking at doing 100 to 150 hrs in SA within the next couple of months.

I have experience of a couple of Flight Schools down there already and am looking for a good deal.

For various reasons I am not going back to the ones I've been at.

Cape Flying Services- good school, had a good time there but unfortunately I am going to be based in Pta to save cash.

Wonderboom Flying School- very good instructor in Richard Thornton, but unfortunately the school closed down a long time ago.

I also have experience with another outfit at Wonderboom but am not going back to them, 'nuff said.

Can anyone recommend anybody specific who has good aircraft availability ( I prob'ly will want to hog the aerie for about two weeks cramming in as many hours as possible!)

Alternatively if you know of someone who can rent me his C-150, C-172 or PA 28 ( 140 - 180) for a good price I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

[Phoebe Buffet]

Gunship: The original question was 'Is it safe & secure in SA?' by Murray_NN to which you, a local, posted 'Belgian girl gang raped in black township' when everyone else was giving constructive helpful advice on how not to court/flirt with danger so as to avoid that particular unhappy situation.

[LUKESTER]

I am a South African living and working in the UK. Never been affected by crime in SA and would / will go back there to complete my training. I come from the sunny coast of Durban where Natal Flight Centre would be the place I would go back to.

Regarding crime, it's everywhere! I feel more 'uneasy' walking along a road here in the UK after dark with 4 or more youths approaching me than I used to walking home after my shift at a local night club bar at 3am back in SA!! If we going to drag up headlines, how about the Brazilian bloke who was shot for a mistaken identity by coppers! Now if I was anywhere else in the world looking to start a flying course, reading the press would I come to the UK ...... surely not as you get shot by coppers sitting on a tube!!!

Seriously, go to SA and see what you think for yourselves! I have taken many English mates I have met during the past 5 years in the UK back for holidays and they LOVED IT!!!

[Gunship]

Well said LUKESTER :ok:

Natal flight centre is a great training instituition in Natal area. :ok:

Vivaa die Wie Pie :E

[sk8erboi]

Well if you love it so much lukester why are you still here? If you feel so uneasy go back to SA.
You have really let yourself down by using such a sensitive argument. That has happened once. You want to talk about bad police lets look at SA. £10 gets you let off with a drink drive charge in places. I know, I've seen it happen to mates.
Would you do a flying course in the UK? Well that depends on where you want to work. Given you are currently living here I think we get a rough idea. Why are you here?
I don't know how this has turned into a tit for tat match. Although looking back some guy decided to tell us all SA is a safe place to live - don't worry about security precautions!!!! Bul:mad: :mad: :cool: :rolleyes: it. It is a cool country and I love it very much. But it is also very dangerous, indeed I would go so far as to say some parts are lawless. Even the so called safer parts are a bloody pain. You ever tried getting in a car in Lord St without being surrounded by 30 begging street kids, all of whom are trying to get their hands on your wallet? Every one of my friends in SA would tell you it is dangerous and to be very careful. This guy guns is talking through his a:mad: :mad:

[Phoebe Buffet]

Lukester: If you feel uneasy about your personal safety and property in UK then I will give you the same advice as I gave Murray (post 12th Aug): lock cars, lock houses and lock windows, don't go driving and walking in dodgy areas - DHL have just released a list of areas they won't deliver to in Uk and when you rent accomodation do so in a 'good' neighbourhood.

If you still feel threatened then a visit to your local police station will give help and advice and I'm sure the SA Embassy will provide details of 'do's and dont's' in a foreign country.

Finally get yourself some medical and life and property insurance.

As for headlines: well who knows why Gunship posted that horrendous story.

I am more than happy to debate/discuss the difference between street violence and national security but I don't think this is the right thread or even forum.

I hope your stay in Uk is a happy, relaxed and crime free one and that you do return to SA to complete your flying training in one piece.

[cavortingcheetah]

;)

The crime is no problem at all, if you approach the matter from the right attitude.

Each time I go back to FAJS, I nip up to the Randburg taxi station and buy an AK47. I tell the taxi drivers to put the word out that the driver of my particular car is now so armed and will willingly and with gleeful anticipation, use the weapon. The bush telegraph works well and within a very few hours my moniker is well known on the reef. No hijacks, no problems, just the occasional grin and a thumbs up from a minibus driver.
Just before I return to wherever I am going, I trade the gun back in. Actually, I sometimes think that my man just keeps the same one for me, time after time.:p

[Phoebe Buffet]

Cavortingcheetah: Nice one .......'tongue in cheek' reply was a refreshing response to a thread littered with over emotional sickly sweet patriotism.

..............now, to buy that AK47 would euros be acceptable?.

[cavortingcheetah]

;)
Emminently, I should have thought, unless perhaps you have a daft Belgian girl or two to trade.:E