self funded guys

[danjenkins]

hello,

Looking to start my self funding in September, finish my apprenticeship and get a nice pay rise, I plan to pay myself my apprentice wages still and pocket the £600 difference each month.

I'm specifically looking for some self funded guys to give me an example of how much they are/were saving and for how long?


+ I want to find out if 600 a month is doable or do I need to re-evaluate?

+ A "really rough" idea as to how long different amounts saved equate to license and exam passes (I do understand we all study at different passes etc.)

cheers guys Dan

[mixture]

Dan,

£600 per month towards an ab-initio fATPL ?

Do you have any starting capital ? Or any licenses already ?

Simple maths suggest 60,000 / 600 = 100 months.

Obviously you can spend as you go, but you're not going to be getting in many hours a month if we assume 100/hour for aircraft + instructor to keep the maths simple.

But maybe I've just misunderstood the wording of your question and you're actually asking something else altogether.

[danjenkins]

nah I'm looking to save and break the licensse down over a few years, ill do my hour building abroad were its cheaper whilst I sit my ATPL ground exams and build that way, as an example.

Also applied for sponsorship as well, may or may not get it.

I have got other options that will come up down the road but need a little more experience in my current job first, so im looking at the minimal figures to start me off

[mixture]

Good to see you're planning to do it over a few years, I wouldn't be in any great rush to get into the industry, especially as people willing to take on fATPLs these days are few and far between.

[danjenkins]

yeah well I'm enjoying my job at the moment, i don't want to rush out of it. ill use that, the travelling and hour building to gain some more life experience and enjoy the process over all.

and the way the price of oil is at the moment no one is in a rush!

[Mickey Kaye]

60 grand modular you must be joking. 30 grand if you know what your doing.

[danjenkins]

really isn't a useful post mate, I'm after specific details etc?

[RollNow!]

Im Modular and im quite a bit into it.

PPL - Canadian = approx 4K

Hours - also in Canada = Approx 7k

ATPL - 1000 for the course, £66 x 14 for exams plus some hotel costs etc = Approx 2.5k

CPL - UK based = Approx 5.5K

IR - UK bases = 11-13K

MMC - not sure where yet = 2.5K

If im good enough to get through the CPL, IR, MMC 1st bash will be about 31-33K for damn near everything.

You could put £600 a month into something around that type of total cost. Would take a while. Flying regularly is the best way to do it as you dont relearn things from your previous hours. On current prices on say a 152 you could fly around 4 times a month for that.

[KAG]

MMC - not sure where yet = 2.5K

Not sure about what? About what it means? ;) Multi Crew Coordination (or Cooperation). MCC.

[danjenkins]

Rollnow, cheer for that. exactly what I'm looking for!

would you recommend flying regularly as in 1 a month or do say PPL up to CPL in bulk?


graft solid for two years and blitz it?

[RollNow!]

Nooo i mean not sure WHERE im going to do it yet lol i know what it means :ok:

[RollNow!]

Depends on you mate.

If you are a good learner and you really take to it then you COULD do it 1 per week and see how you get on. Might work for your PPL a lot of people do it that way.

However i decided it was better to bash it all through in one go. So i went to Canada and did my PPL in just under 6 weeks. Worked a charm i passed the theory and the Flight test 1st time and got good marks from the TC examiner. Was cheaper too as i was paying CAD prices to liver literally on the airfield, not UK fuel prices driving every week. Also you can fly up to about 5 hours a day, anymore is a waste you WILL be knackered. I tried it and knocked it down to 2 or 3 depending on WX and A/C availability.

I also forgot to add the Multi into my price list ... roughly 3k depending on what you fly. a DA42 will be more than a Seneca for example.... most of the time anyway.

[danjenkins]

i know what your saying mate, I'm waiting on a GAPAN PPL scholarship at the mo so finger crossed i can save my self some money and get some good cv coverage.

can I PM you my email addy etc as any one who's been through it would be invaluable to me at the mo?

[RollNow!]

Of course you can. It helped me when i was asking all this stuff :ok:

[danjenkins]

just sent it now, can you either email me or msg me so i have yours.


if you don't hear from me for a while its not out ignorance I've got interviews etc coming up to nail down a job so its the priority. When ive got the saving contract i can start looking to start funding.

if you don't mind me asking what sort of money have you been saving per month?

Looking at a good dependable financial structure that is proven

[Nearly There]

Roll Now, have you included flight tests in your figures? IR test will cost you best part of £1200+, likewise for the ME/CPL, taking into account ME A/C hire charges and the CAA stinging you over £700 for each skills test. Plus cost of living, loss of earnings, additional hours, retakes, licence issue etc it all adds up!

[CraigyD]

Hi, hope my 'story' so far will give an insight.

When I lived at home with my parents I managed to save £1000 a month for 10 months and this paid for 2 months in California to get my PPL (FAA), about 40 hrs hour building (20 in the US 20 in the UK), ATPL ground school course and all the other bits a bobs like books, whizz wheel etc. I am still doing my ATPL exams, passed 6 so far and will finish the rest this year. I then saved £500 a month for 8 months and this paid for a single engine seaplane rating in Seattle and about 10hrs hour building on a Piper Super Cub on floats (almost got an hour in a DeHavilland Beaver, but the only day the dual controlled one was free it was foggy, gutted :{!)! I have now moved out as I have a job as an operations officer earning pretty good money and saving £800 a month. I plan to go to the US again for a month in October to get my tail endorsement and build a further 30hrs, this trip will set me back £4000. I am also going to build another 20hrs here in the UK in the summer at approx £3000 (includes landing fees, meals, hotels and so on). I will complete the CPL next year in June taking the time off work and hitting the course full time, I should be able to fund this with out a loan as I will have about £8000 saved. As for the IR I am not sure when I will complete this. I will judge the market (by the way my aim is not airline pilot, not that I will turn down a job if offered! I am aiming more for bush flying, perhaps Africa or the dream job would be flying seaplanes somewhere! Anyway, back to the story), maybe get an instructors rating and teach part time or something (hope tail wheel and seaplane rating will add a few strings to my bow for this). But whatever I do I think I will need to borrow a bit of money at some point and if I do I want to keep it below £15k. We will see. Just keep saving as much as I can.

Anyway mate, if you are going to do this, be under no illusion it is very hard. Get used to saying you can't go on holidays with mates as much (missed 3 years of festivals with my mates I would love to have gone to). If you enjoy a beer like me, you will find you will be cutting down due to funding issues. You can of course still do things, I have about £300 of 'spending money' a month for myself. It is also frustrating not flying for long periods but when you do fly you won't forget it!

I know I am not doing this the cheapest way (seaplanes spring to mind!), but I am really enjoying my training and my flying and thats what is important to me. Sorry for the essay but I hope it gives you an idea! Best of luck mate, we all need it!

[danjenkins]

yeah that's ideal mate, nice to see some good advice from top guys like.

its funny you mention the drink and all that I'm stopping my self now, getting out of bad habits and saving money which was also good advice I've had from off here. When I start making more progress ill get back to you all and let you know were I'm at. Good confidence booster, with my aviation background and i know its doable on them sort of wages I feel a lot happier now. If thers any more guy with some experience please jump in.

[RollNow!]

Nearly there.

In those figures no. Ive just included course costs as a rough guide to quite a large round number :}

I know the flight test fees are there but its getting the money together for all the modules that has been difficult. Its almost done now if i can get this much ill sort the flight tests out when i come to them :) Theres even licence issue which i believe is just over £100 argh. Love you CAA :eek:

[zondaracer]

The cost of the ATPL exams in the UK went up to £68 each

[clanger32]

Guys,
I went integrated, for what it's worth and I'm fairly well documented through the site as just asking people to make sure that they FULLY understand the costs and impacts behind going mod.

However, what really struck me about this thread is that people (with one exception) are being really SENSIBLE about it - you're talking about doing it when finances allow, saving your cash - I LOVE the seaplane and taildragger concept. I just REALLY wish more wannabes would take the same view and try and work out a sensible approach to the funding of it.

So whilst my good wishes are worth absolutely nothing at all, I really wish you the very best of luck - enjoy it, it is really really hard work, but it's also huge fun!:ok:

[captainsuperstorm]

and after your CPL, what do you do? fly a jet?

"oh no, I will fly small planes for a living!!!"

in your dream mate!

[Mr Grimsdale]

The cost of the ATPL exams in the UK went up to £68 each
Just as well I finished mine last year then.:E

I think it's probably fair to say that while RollNow!'s figures are pretty correct you should give yourself a contingency fund for the flight training - say £20k in total for the CPL and IR. How does that sound to everyone?

[RollNow!]

:} my figures are 'perfect world' first time pass figures. Which im hoping will be more accurate than not :) I think 18-20k is about right for the CPL / IR based on the fact that a lot of people partial the IR FT.

The way i see it though, if you can get it all done for minus of 40K you've done pretty well. Not to say anything bad about intergrated but i know i cant be paying the 70K plus Euros that PTC at WAT would want for example. Let alone Oxford!

Starting in Canada really helped i must have saved at bout 40% on UK private training and hours. Was a good start. Leaves me in a good position to finish the real nitty gritty in the UK in terms of CPL, IR. As for the MCC as long as its credible im open to suggestions on that.

Basically faster = more money so it seems. Modular is cheaper and if you pic the right places for the Commercial stuff you'll be ok. This is the message i get from many of the Airline guys i work with. I told them what i was doing and they all approved.

My advice would be to have ALL the money bulked for the particular module you are doing. PPL you can maybe do week by week but i wouldn't recommend that for the rest of it.

[danjenkins]

clanger32,

nail on the head mate! I hate reading 100s of threads about I want to be a pilot with no viable route or sensible license decisions.

I never even considered Canada or tail/sea planes but ill deffo look into it now.

yeah I'm dreading failing exams due to cost and time but its something ill really have to consider as I go along. hardest part of me will be the 14 ATPL exams I think.

Did any of you guys do distance learning or integrated for the G/S? Any coments welcome

cheers guys

[UAV689]

Good on you for saving to do it. Very wise. You will not be risking your future by having mega loans etc.

Don't discount a second job also, I have work 7 days a week for 3 years, and during that time I have completed my atpls, passing them all first time.

But bewarned, it is hard. You will have no social life! Look at every way you can to make money, I saw a bargain car and turned. Grand profit on that, made some on shares, sold gear on eBay, even cycled to work to save on fuel. It is possible, but you won't have much of a life while you do it. But in my mind a better life after training than some muppet with a 100k debt paying 1000 a month+rent after going to Oxford and a low paid first officer job, or worse still no flying job.

[danjenkins]

shares I'm looking at, doing some medical trials as long as they don't effect getting a class one and also looking at the cycle to work program, could be a brilliant way to keep fit and save 20quid a week in fuel.

Almost every one has said its hard and im quiet looking forwards to the challenge, If its hard to do then its worth doing in the long run I reckon. And a few years hard graft and training to get to that place puts me hopefully in a nice job one day for the rest of my time so again deffo worth it.

nice to see it is doable and again cheer for the reply

[BoeingDreamer]

Save money, and only when you have ALL money for PPL do you start doing it, and make sure you time it with good weather season.

Do NOT do your PPL in the autumn, best time April/May, same with regards to starting your CPL.

Do PPL one year, hour building and ATPL theory.
Then 1 or 2 years after do your CPL, wait with the ME until you have the money ready for ME, so you do those both at similar time.
You do not want to get delayed because of bad weather, because that will cost you much money.

CPL is done in 4 - 5 weeks, ME in 1 week, IR is around 2 - 4 months.
ATPL's takes longest time, 6 - 15 months, depending how you do it.

You can work during your PPL, hour building and your ATPL theory, and save money.
Rough figure £50.000, but can be done for less.
Split them up in parts, make sure you have £15.000 when you start your IR, you do NOT want to screw up your IR time and training, because it is £375 an hour in the aircraft.

It can be done for less, you will see as you go along if you stay within or outside budget. Hour building can be done cheap in the UK, you fly C152 around £80 an hour. You work at same time, to avoid any loss of your savings.

CPL/ME/IR can be done for £21.000 + exam fees, ATPL for £3000. So that makes it £24.000 + extra fees another £3.000 - £4.000.

PPL I don't know to much about, but 100 hours PIC in C152 will cost you around £8.000.
Here is a copy of another post I have made. They are slightly high prices, taking into some extra as contingency.

Do it all in 2 or 3 steps, and you will be fine.

It took me exactly on the date 2 years from I passed my PPL until I got my IR. And I think it is not easy to do it much faster than that.

Add the numbers together:
PPL : £7000
Hours: £9000
ATPL: £3500 (books and exam fees in addition to the course)
CPL: £7500
ME: £3000
IR: £15000
MCC: £2500


If you do distance learning on your ATPL's I think you have to calculate at least 12 months to complete the ATPL's, I know guys and they struggled to do distance learning less then 12 months, it is possible, but not easy.
The way I see it, you will probably spend 9 months to do your PPL and hour building, the rest of the flight training probably within maximum 5 months. So you have the rest of time used for ATPL's.

[CraigyD]

I think time frame depends on your circumstances. When I went to the States to get my PPL I had lost my job thanks to the recession. I was there for 2 months, the course itself took about 2 days over a month. That was in 2009. To date I have just over 100hrs and 6 ATPL exams complete. At the end of this year I should be at the stage where I can start the CPL course, but won't be doing this till next year, ME/IR probably the year after so I am looking at about 4 years in total.

Be aware that things change a lot in just 2 years yet alone 4. You need to flexable, not to ridigid with your plans. If you think it will take a bit longer to complete someting (had this issue with ATPL exams), you need to accept it and get on with it no matter how frustating it is!

[JCBeadle]

A PPL will set you back at least £9000.00 now in the UK. I would be very surprised if I saw for anything less. I know it depends on where you learn to fly. But all flying schools will say on their websites PPL for £7000 - but that's in minimum hours, with only 10 or 20 free landings and a couple of books. I'm training at Biggin, so expecting at least £10000.00 maybe a little more. With fuel going up i don't see prices reducing. Gone are the days of PPL's for £6000.00 to £7000.00 in the UK.

Also if your working, It would be very difficult to complete your PPL and hour building all in 9 months?! Unless you have cash reserves or your saving £2000.00 a month after tax. First you have the good old British weather to contend with ( I had to wait 8 weeks from February to March / April just to have one lesson because the weather was so rubbish!) Second, most people who work will only be able to fly at the Weekends which are the busiest times to fly. And if you do complete your PPl say within 6 months, you need another 90-100 hours to build in four months?! Ambitious, but not practical. Ride out the recession, pay as you go at a consistent but not overloaded level. There's time

[thulfi]

I've read through many of the cost breakdowns posted on here.

My plan has always been to save about £30,000 over two years and go and do this...

Euro American School of Aviation - Airline Pilot Program (http://www.flyeasa.com/airline_pilot.php)

Can anyone see a problem with this idea, because £24,000 from zero to JAA is pretty good, no?

[M1ghtyDuck]

I'd look into hidden extras like test fees or costs of extra training above minimums, but certainly seems cheap. They seem to be using FAA and conversions as much as possible to save costs. Similar to what I plan to do.

I'd also wonder if perhaps airlines wouldn't respect your FTO as much.. but to be honest that's a problem for a different day and may even be a phantom one at that.

[captainsuperstorm]

nobody do a PPL with 36h!
IR in 25h, I doubt.
and 5h multi??? that' s the minimum for the FAA. Practically you will need 15-20h.

Multi IR must be done in Europe, ad another 40'000 euro.
add transport, food, tax, extra exam if you fail, extra hours.

in total, expect over 90'000 euro. very far from their initial £24,000

don't fall in the "cheap training"trap .In aviation, nothing is cheap!

Your Captain Superstorm.
The aviation Specialist