If you could, would you go to the states?

[M1ghtyDuck]

Hi,

I have a basic PPL. I'm about to graduate from my physics degree and begin my hour building for my cpl.

I'm a US citizen through my mother, so I have the option of painlessly (I just mean no visa etc. I know it'll be tough) going to the US, either after getting a JAA CPL in the UK so I'd need to convert, or just going straight over there now and training FAA CPL. I'm kind of thinking the latter.

If you had that option, would you go to the states?

I know that it's no paradise over there, but for one thing it seems cheaper and faster to get a CPL. I have around £30k I've earnt from trading which seems like enough for a zero to hero FAA CPL. Also, the much higher amount of GA means I would stand a better chance of a part 91 low hour job, especially if I was willing to move all over, right? Banner towing, instructing and the like.

£30k won't even finish off my professional training over here, and even once it does, low houred jobs are nowhere. Given the amount of money I have, surely I'd be better off getting an FAA licence with no debt, working over in the states for a while, and if I had the opportunity later, get a JAA licence?

Would you?

Thanks a lot

[BigGrecian]

Why not do both at the same time... find a school which has experience of doing both at the same time and you could maximise your productivity - I reckon you could at least get your Private, FAA IR, ATPL theory and at least one of the CPLs done for close to that cost.
Would need to add the JAA IR though but as long as you get that done within the 3 years you'd have options!

Good luck! :cool:

[avionimc]

If I were you I would not hesitate another second and catch the next flight to the US. Forget about JAA/EASA and associated headaches, expenses, etc.

Just concentrate on passing the FAA Commercial and Instrument written tests first (e.g., at Aviation Seminars: Commercial Pilot FAA Test Preparation - Pass Your FAA Exam (http://www.aviationseminars.com/commercial.html) during a week-end seminar) and then start flight training for a MEL, Commercial / Instrument pilot certificate.

No need for SE. I would recommend ATP Flight Schools (ATP Flight School: Multi-Engine Rating (10-Hour) (http://www.atpflightschool.com/programs/ratings/multi-engine.html)
http://www.atpflightschool.com/flight_schools/index.html (http://www.atpflightschool.com/flight_schools/index.html)) or any good, I mean excellent, dedicated, MEI/CFII, be aware that there are not too many around! Good Luck.

[zondaracer]

I am a US Citizen, just moved from Europe. There are A LOT of flight instructors in the US. Over 96.000 active CFI certificates. AOPA estimates that there are approximately .75 student pilots to flight instructors in the US. So yes, GA is much bigger in the US, but getting a job is not that easy right now. There is some pickup in airline hiring, but regional airlines have grown so much in the US in the past few years that they now fly 50% of all routes in the US and it is becoming more and more accepted that the average pilot in the US will not make it to a Major airline.

From doing the license conversion from FAA to JAA, it is a painful and expensive process, but having an FAA and JAA license will definitely give you the ability to work on both sides of the Atlantic.

So, yeah I just moved from the US to Europe and prefer living in Europe. I think my prospects to find a job may be slightly better in the US, and I definitely wouldn´t have to pay 2 fly, and my CPL training was definitely cheaper in the US but after doing the JAA conversion it wasn´t that much cheaper except for the fact that Uncle Sam paid for about half my FAA training. Also, if your goal is to fly a shiny jet right away, you will have better luck in Europe. If you want to live in the US for awhile and get lots of GA experience (which is good experience if you ask me), by all means pack your bags. But just keep in mind that actually getting that job as an instructor in the US won´t be as easy as you may think.

Also, if you decide to go to the US, it is a good idea to get both Single engine AND multiengine. There are a lot of single engine GA Jobs. And if you read that ME program at ATP carefully (posted in the previous post), you already have to have a single engine rating to do the ME program. If you do become a CFI in the states, a majority if your students will be single engine.

I´m under the impression that avionimc has not done any training in the states. This weekend seminar is not really necessary. Just start doing your training, and then buy the Gleim question bank books, you´ll need one for Instrument and one for Commercial, and then you will study each one for about 2 nights in a row and pass your exam. No need to go to a weekend seminar or putoff the flight training in order to really focus. The written exams aren´t that hard in the US.

[M1ghtyDuck]

BigGrecian. I hadn't even thought of that. From my research it looks like I'll have change out of £30k if I get a full FAA CPL(once you take into account that I already have a PPL). I could use the remaining money to get as much JAA stuff done as I could. I'll look into it further thanks.

avionimc. Thanks for the links, especially ATP. Although when you say not to bother with the SE, surely my first jobs would be on single engines?

zondaracer. That's very helpful. What exactly made you move from the states to Europe if you don't mind me asking? I'm aware the FAA -> JAA conversion is rather more difficult than the reverse, but I'll cross the bridge when I come it it, and using the money I have to at least get in the air is more important to me.

Like I said, I know that it's no paradise for jobs in the states. I'm not under any delusions that it'll be easy, but it's easier than here and that's the important part. A final point, I actively don't want my first job to be on a shiny jet. I would much prefer hands on flying. I'd do that my whole life if money wasn't a consideration.


Oooh I'm gradually becoming convinced.

[Loose rivets]

I knew no fear when I was your age, but now I'm mindful of the madness of American medicine. You will have to be well insured.

I held a Class 1 medical for so long I was rather blase about it, but some of the figures for minor procedures I've heard of lately, would mean I would be cleaned out with a minor accident. $1,000,000 cover is the minimum you need. One careless moment could eat your 30,000 quid in ONE DAY. I am not mistaken in this.

One of my SILs spent $144,000 for a FOUR HOUR procedure on her neck. She only tugged on a weed in the garden.

That's that, and from someone that chanced their luck here for many, many years.

Perhaps take a job while you're training that gives medical cover, if not much else. University jobs can be the way to go, and give time for other pursuits.

Good luck.

[student88]

If money wasn't an option I'd train in the UK.

[Johnny Bekkestad]

Loose Rivets: Why not just get an insurance?
I signed up with a student insurance before i commenced flight training. If i for any medical/psychological reason was not to complete my training, they would reimburse me the whole training cost. And after that i can move over to an insurance that will cover me as a pilot instead of student pilot where i would have loss of income etc.

I've also had to visit the doctors here in the US, i was bitten by a brown recluse (spider) and my foot "blew" up to the size of a football. Guess what! Zero, null, nil, nada charge, not even for the medications.

[M1ghtyDuck]

Student88. But if it was, and you were a US citizen, would you train and work in the states?

Loose Rivets, cheers for the reminder. I'll be sure to sort out health insurance I've heard too many nightmare stories. I doubt I'd get another job - I'd rather concentrate on the cpl course, but we'll see.

The more I think about it the more it seems like the best solution for me. One of the best things about it is the speed with which I can be flying and trying to get a job. Could be this year! I've spent my whole life waiting.

zondaracer how much would you estimate it cost you to convert from FAA to JAA?

[Loose rivets]

I'm past that stage now, but I'd think it would be a good topic for general information.

Even my son, who has insurance as a tenured professor, gets hit with $1,000s CO-PAYMENTS. A large family's premiums can be daunting.

I guess there might be a way to take advantage of insurers that are looking for new blood. After all, favorable payouts now might earn them a lifetime's premiums. Worth researching.

And to other folk who might find themselves messing with spiders. A brown recluse is NOT your friend. Same son put his hand into the lawn sprinkler valve box, and just missed getting zapped.

[captainsuperstorm]

I can not wait to win a green card lottery and move to the USA forever and never come back.

at least there, you can fly, be a flight instructor, or whatever you want.

[zondaracer]

zondaracer. That's very helpful. What exactly made you move from the states to Europe if you don't mind me asking?

Lots of reasons, but I find the quality of life much better in Europe. I live in Spain. My wife is from Europe, we are close to her family and that is the most important reason. Family is the most important thing for us and our kids being able to grow up with their grandmother and cousins and everything is important.

Also, I find Europe much more beautiful than the US. Lots of beautiful architecture and walkable cities. In the US, you really need a car almost everywhere except NYC. I like the diversity and culture in Europe, you can drive a few hours or hop on a plane and in an hour and a half be in a place vastly different.

Also in the US, people place a big importance on working, making big money, and not enough people slow down to enjoy themselves. For example, I heard that in 2006, 25% of Americans didn´t have a paid vacation, and 43% didn´t even have a whole week off. Americans live to work, not work to live. (just generalities of course).

Also, lots of fat people in the US. Here in Europe, I hear people talking about climbing obesity rates in their countries, but they haven´t seen anything till they have been to places like Texas, Alabama, Mississippi. Colorado is the only state where less than 20% of the population is obese. It goes back to what I said earlier about lack of walkable cities. In fact, in the US, we don´t just have McDonald´s drive thru, we also have Starbucks drive through, drive through Chinese food, donuts, mexican, more hamburgers, italian. We have drive thru ATMs (cashpoint), drive thru banking, drive thru pharmacy, drive thru liquor stores (yes, I am serious).

I also like motorsports, but European motorsports just seem to be on another level for me. I don´t like to watch anything that only turns left.

Typical American street:
http://www.eyemead.com/XAM3-01J.jpg
Typical European street:
http://images.travelpod.com/tw_slides/ta00/9d6/6ee/a-main-street-in-bern-romanshorn.jpg

Typical ¨Square¨ in the US
http://www.chesapeakerealtypartners.com/files/node_images/shrewsbury_commons_shopping_center.jpg

European Square
http://mirror-uk-rb1.gallery.hd.org/_exhibits/places-and-sights/_more1999/_more06/Czech-Republic-Prague-Old-Town-Square-tweaked-1-CL.jpg


There are things that I miss about the states, such as real Mexican food, Philly Cheesesteaks, hot wings, the FAA (much easier to deal with than the CAA, and cheaper too), widespread general aviation, and some of my friends, but that´s about it. And the US also has some nice places to visit/live, I just feel that it is a lot more common and easier to find picturesque places in Europe where one can just enjoy their milieu.

zondaracer how much would you estimate it cost you to convert from FAA to JAA?

1900 GBP for ground school course with 4 weeks of brushup included
854 GBP for 14 exams (CAA exam fees)
600 GBP FOR 4 weeks lodging in a B&B near Bristol
400 GBP for 3 airplane tickets round trip to the UK From Barcelona
460 GBP for lodging at Gatwick for exams and medical
100 GBP for two one way trips from Bristol to Gatwick
330 GBP for JAR class 1 medical
60 GBP for translation of ECG from Spanish to English (CAA required an extra test from me)

11000 euros for flight training and flight testing plus MCC

I´m sure there are some other costs I forgot to include, but in the end I think it cost me close to €15000

[M1ghtyDuck]

Wow thanks so much. The FAA -> JAA conversion costs are about what I've heard elsewhere so thanks for confirming. Always great to hear from someone who's actually done it and includes things like lodging and tickets.

As far as US vs Europe, it's funny but some of what you cite as reasons to leave the states are reasons I want to go! As a kid we went on holidays to the states every year or too and I always loved it. I loved the weather, the big open highways and squares, the huge shopping malls, the things a dollar could buy. Just the feel of the country. Plus, I'm not rreally into quaint european, walkable towns. I feel more action orientated, young and.. well American! I've always been proud of my American heritage and I've always wanted to spend some significant time there, and this seems like the perfect opporunity. Perhaps as I get older I'd wish to return to europe, if I come to appreciate nice towns and architechture, but for now huge oval race tracks and taco bells seem right on!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I was asking you for the reasons you left in case you had one that I might come to have once I was over there. I guess to test myself, see if I still want to go once hearing about why someone would leave. And I think I do, so thanks!

[KAG]

I wouldn't.

[zondaracer]

Yeah it is definitely good to experience something different. I have met Europeans living in the states who love it, and others who can't wait to leave. To each his own. Most of my European friends who lived in the states feel that quality of life is a little better in Europe.

Btw, a square in the US isn't really a square usually (only in touristy places is it a real square). Typically it is an ugly strip mall with a parking lot and they use the name "square" or "plaza" or "town center". A lot of towns or communities don't have a town center and lack community identity. I am also "action orientated" and thats why I moved to Europe. Lack of action in the states unless you live in a college town or a popular tourist city like Las Vegas, NYC, South Beach, etc

Also, the euro/pound dollar exchange rate is in your favor right now, but at one point in time, the dollar was stronger than the euro (I can't ever remember it being stronger than the pound in my lifetime)

[KAG]

I don't know how you calculate a strong money, but I can tell you the lower is the rate, the better is the economy.
And beleiving that to have the same value you should have 1 pound = 1 yen = 1 euro = 1 dollar = 1 yuan = 1 CFA... That's misunderstanding money.

In the high exporting areas, like in order: euro zone, yuan zone, yen zone, having a low exange rate is even more important. So I beleive the dollar exchange is at a very good level, boosting exportation, limiting importation, in europe that's the oposite.

Quality of life is high in many european countries, hard to say no, but the subject is about a pilot career.

I say I wouldn't because of the flight instructor and regional pilot condition, very close to slavery. In bigger airlines the layoff and pilot on furlough every now and then is part of the pilot culture now, involving a lot of stress.
And I wouldn't because most of the P2W (pay to work, not pay to fly) shameless scheme, including eagle jet, are based in the US.

Canada, Australia and its huge GA per capita are a different story.

[zondaracer]

Kag, I didn't necessarily mean stronger but rather what tourist crossing which border is going to save more money. I understand currencies very well. A bit of mispeak if you will.

Also, you mentioned P2F/P2W etc. The companies may be based in the US, but they are not popular and for the most part won't get you anywhere in the US. They profit mostly from foreigners who buy their time and go back to their respective countries. You are definitely right about the near slavery conditions of instructors and regional guys. In the US, instruction is one of the most common steps in the career ladder before moving on to a low paying regional. It can be really tough for quite a few years, followed by the years of instability and possible furloughs.

Also, I think in the US, being a pilot has lost more of it's prestige amongst the general populace compared to it's status in Europe. Just my observation but I may be wrong.

[KAG]

I am not sure they is only foreigners P2W at ameriflight and the like...

Anyway I see your point concerning the currencies.

[M1ghtyDuck]

Thanks again for the help guys.

Just to clarify, I have been to the states, all over in fact albeit only on holidays, road trips, staying with family etc. I know the strip malls you refer to and I actually like them.

If I find that life over there isn't what I want, and the vision of the states in my head is a romanticised 'holidaying as a kid' version that turns out to be a harsh reality check when I actually live there, I could always come back to Europe.

£15000ish to convert back to JAA and I'm at around the same ballpark figure I'd have spent just staying in the UK training, with the added bonus of a bunch of extra multi-time and 6 months instructing (if I take ATPs guaranteed instructor job after fast track), as well as a great American experience.

Am I right? Or am I missing something glaring like no European company wanting to touch me with a barge pole?

[Peter PanPan]

@MD Pretty much everything has been said, I would follow avionimc (http://www.pprune.org/members/178696-avionimc)'s advice:
Forget about JARland and use the unique privilege you have of being able to undertake training in the States as a US Citizen, zondaracer made some relevant points for sure, such as gaining both JAR and FAA Certificates, but for the time being focus on your FAA training, you won't regret it!
Hours are hours, and the experience you may gain in the States, as a CFI hopefully and later on whether flying GA or Airlines will put you in comfortable position if you wish to convert to JAR. Reality in Europe today is rather gloomy as you may know already. Just my two cents.;)

[davie7ee]

The USA is a good idea for the following reasons;

The cost of flying out here is a lot less than the UK or Europe in general. Become a CFI and gain many hours of flight experience in a short period of time. I taught at a JAA (CAA) school where I would fly 6-8 hours a day.

The USA is going through a pilot shortage. There are many companies out here that even if they hire as many pilot's as they can this year they will still be short!

You can gain the multi crew experience by flying for an airline in the USA whilst completing your ATPL's, you can even take the exams out here now (Orlando).

[KAG]

"The USA is going through a pilot shortage." :)

[davie7ee]

For the first time in 5 years there has been a large amount of pilot movement in the industry. If the regional airlines hire as many as they can this year they are still going to be short; which is great. There are several rules driving this though
1. The experience for a first officer is going to be increased. To allow to fly at an airline you will need 1500 hours (it is going back and forth as Universities and companies are arguing that 800 is sufficient).
2. The average of the pilot workforce in the USA is old.....i believe that the majority of the pilots at American Airlines are over 55 so not long for them to go.
3. New regulations on flight time and duty time. The FAA wants to increase the hours per day but also increase the rest period. If this comes about the airline will need 2 crews to do what 1 crew used to.

It all looks good for pilots for the next few years which is a huge relief!

[zondaracer]

shortage of guys with the hours to fly at a regional and willingness to fly for regional pay on regional schedules. but i´m sure the pilot mills will figure out how to pump the required number out and have them instruct until they reach the hiring requirements.

[davie7ee]

Right now the only ones affected are the regionals. As i stated before the majority of the pilots at the major airlines are old and were back logged because of the retirement rules (60 increased to 65). Within a few years this problem will not only be a regional problem.

I know a good few captains that have been at a regional for 10-15 years. They get paid pretty well (100k+), get the schedules they want, and get a large amount of time off per year. Given that it would take them at least three years at a major to earn the same as they are getting and all the benefits they would lose as they would be on the bottom; i do not foresee people leaving in a hurry.

We will see how the pilot mills work out........loans are hard to get especially when you are not part of a university.

[M_Wall13]

I'm in a similar situation to you M1ghtyDuck, most of my family live in the US, so I have the option to live over there, I'm a recent uni graduate with four years experience flying gliders and two years running a gliding club so I love GA, I had been due to start an UK integrated course earlier this year but decided not too due to the ridiculous cost and job market situation, so the plan is to go modular over the next few years and just keep an eye on the industry, I understand 100% that an new fATPL is by no means a ticket to an airline job, so the chance to go to the US and gain a license at a more reasonable price with the chance to gain experience and build hours in GA seems a good idea, also just me piece but the slavery of working for a regional over there isn't too different from what its like over here, with debt ridden guys/girls flying with BE, EZY and the golden harp.

So I'm pretty much asking the same questions guys what do you think?

[M1ghtyDuck]

M_Wall drop me a PM with your email address, be good to chat with someone considering the same thing.

The way I see it, even if we end up deciding to come back to europe, convert to JAA and try and find a job over here, we're in no worse a position financially or otherwise than if we'd just done it here in the first place, but probably have the benefit of some extra hours.

[KAG]

Why in our industry, when there is some movement, hiring, we call it a shortage?
Do pilots have a vocabulary problem? When I hear about:
line training instead of P2W,
frozen ATPL instead of CPL licence,
jet instead of turbofan,
shortage instead of hiring,
education instead of training,
GA instead of what we really mean (A B747 could be part of GA)....
When I hear about that then, I tend to beleive we really do have a vocabulary and accuracy problem.

[Reverserbucket]

Utah based regional currently interviewing for between 60 and 70 pilots per month - that's quite a few people. But - the salary is in the region of 20,000 USD p.a. - not a lot.

[zondaracer]

Yeah lots of US Regionals are hiring right now. The going rate seems to be somewhere between 800 and 1200TT, in anticipation of new work rest rules and the 1500TT/ATP rule which kicks in in 2012.

As previously stated, with seniority is possible to break $100,000/yr and have a decent schedule, but the first few years will be a struggle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A

[davie7ee]

I used the term shortage as there is not enough supply of pilots to satisfy the demand at this time. I believe somewhere in a dictionary this is defined as a shortage.