Parachute dropping

[soarfeet]

Hello folks,

I hope I've posted this in a suitable forum.

I've done the expected background trawling for information on this but I'd appreciate some views from those who may be or were in the know. What were your experiences, background etc. Did you do it for hour building or is it your vocation ?

I'm one of the billion or so fATPL(A) holders in the UK and am trying to get my foot in the door. I'd love to be called in one day to a large operator and sat in the RHS but realistically speaking, that's unlikely to happen. Also, I'm a bit older than most starting out so I'm looking for something that I'll stick with.

Like many of us, I just want to fly. I'm well aware of the skill level required do be a good drop pilot and it really appeals.

I'm sure there are loads of views on this. If you've got a sledge-hammer opinion on everything like some people I read then please move on, otherwise, please reply.

Regards.

[callum]

It normally helps to know the people at a dropzone e.g be a jumper. But sometimes vacancies do become avaliable. You just gotta keep phoning around.
I would start by reading this:

British Parachute Association (http://www.bpa.org.uk/stay-safe/pilot-manual)

[MIKECR]

Where in the UK are you? I can give you some contact details if thats of any help. Depends where your located though.

[SNS3Guppy]

Like many of us, I just want to fly. I'm well aware of the skill level required do be a good drop pilot and it really appeals.

I'm sure there are loads of views on this. If you've got a sledge-hammer opinion on everything like some people I read then please move on, otherwise, please reply.

Is there a question in there, somewhere?

Jumpers trust jumpers. Your best bet to fly jumpers is to start jumping.

What exactly is the skill level required to be "a good drop pilot?" It's not really rocket science. Maintain control of the airplane, don't overheat the engine on the way up, don't overcool it on the way down. Get up to altitude quickly, get back down quickly. Repeat that to yourself three times, and you've just graduated jump pilot 101.

You might try DiverDriver.com: The Jump Pilot's Information Resource (http://diverdriver.com/) for some thoughts on the question(s) you haven't asked yet.

You should consider flight instructing.

[DaFly]

Hi Soarfeet,

I have dropped a few guys in Swakopmund over the years and I must say, it was the most fun I had flying an aircraft.
At that stage I was flying for company doing scenic flights over the Namib Desert. After building up a reputation for good airmanship (well, what is considered good airmanship around the 500-1000h mark), I got to help out at the local skydiver's club. Back than I had the attitude, that I would never jump out of a controllable aeroplane myself, but if they felt like, why not.
What I enjoyed about the whole thing, you are flying the plane always at it's performance limits. On the way up you try to squeeze out just those 10ft/min more on the VSI, during the drop you try to maintain the slowest possible speed to make the exit as comfortable as possible, yet keep the plane stable with 3 or 4 people hanging on to the outside and on the way down you fly just below red line, making sure you don't crack the cylinders. That's what I enjoyed about this type of flying. And of course the crowd. It's a bunch of crazy people, in a nice way. At one stage one of them nicked the key from the ignition just before jumping out.
So yes, I did it mostly for the fun of it and the pay wasn't bad either back then. I dropped sky divers out of a C210, C206T and a BN2T. With the turbine Islander one actually lands before the last tandem touches down.

It is certainly not the way to up your total time by a large margin, if you aim at getting into BA, no airline's CP would be impressed finding the paragraph about "Drop Pilot" in your CV. But if your goal is more like making some money in a fun way, go for it. However, like any job, I wouldn't know how long the fun lasts, if that is all you do day in, day out.

[gijoe]

'At one stage one of them nicked the key from the ignition just before jumping out.'

If a jumper did that on one of my lifts I would immediately nick their front teeth with my left fist as soon as I had dead-sticked. They would never get a ride from me again. :eek:

Soarfeet, I am a current BPA pilot. Drop me a pm with any questions that you want answered and I might be able to point you in the right direction.

G

[SNS3Guppy]

Deleted.

A USELESS post and snide. We don't allow it on PPRuNe.

PPP

[gijoe]

Utter bolloc*s - It may be the case in the US but why would anyone really want to do this?

Wrong crowd? I am still working it out after 2000 lobs...

G

[Dream Land]

If a jumper did that on one of my lifts I would immediately nick their front teeth with my left fist as soon as I had dead-sticked. They would never get a ride from me again. Waa, waa, waaa, who really cares?

Soarfeet, my two cents worth is that flying jumpers is a fun way to build up a bit of flight time, my suggestion is that you first hang out a bit at the drop zone and get a feel for the operation, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out if whether or not it's a professional organization you want to be associated with.

Jumpers are an untrusting lot and are slow to warm up to a pilot, especially if they say something like "I'll never do that" it takes a while to become a good jump pilot, not a simple job. Whiners need not apply.

[S-Works]

I am a current turbine jump pilot, BPA Examiner as well as the normal flying day job.

We look for people who are experienced pilots and not hours builders. The problem with hours builders is they are always looking for an exit and it has to be remembered that it costs us around £15k to train a jump pilot so we want a long term commitment.

As has been pointed out it also helps if you are a jumper so you understand how the spot works, the run in and accounting for drift. It is also very true that jumpers are slow to warm to pilots and if you get it wrong you never hear the end of it. Also at a lot of DZ's if you get it wrong you can do some serious damage to people and property.

Jump flying requires precision and excellent handling skills. In a twin turbine you wil be flying a fully loaded aircraft often at the edge of the envelope and this requires you to be very switched on with the handling characteristics.

Iin big organisations like ours a real understanding of the economics of operating turbine aircraft. Speed and good handling is off the essence coupled with absolute attention to safety. We do 15,000ft and back in 11mins so you are doing 5 TO/LDG an hour and we will fly max hours in a day when it is busy. On big events we can be running 5 or more aircraft often in formation.

It is one of the most rewarding jobs in flying when you get good at it but it is not for the faint hearted or lazy!!

[soarfeet]

I have at least done one jump so I'm not completely unaware of what it's about. I was looking for your experiences so thanks, there's some good stuff there.

[SNS3Guppy]

Deleted.

A USELESS post and snide. We don't allow it on PPRuNe.

PPP

A useless and snide post? Really? In what universe?

The poster speaks of knocking a jumpers teeth out simply because the jumper does what's done at drop zones all over the world, all the time. It's an age-old joke.

Snide is telling the pilot to carry a second set of keys? Unbelievable. You acutally edited a post telling someone to carry a second set of keys.

How about editing the post of the individual who wishes to break the teeth of his passengers?

Seriously.

[SloppyJoe]

Yeah heard the keys out of the ignition story when I started flying jumpers 11 years ago, surprised someone actually said it happened to them, kinda brings the story into a real situation, oh wait, its an anonymous forum so actually its still BS. Maybe happened once upon a time in the US, years and years ago in some hick town with redneck jumpers but seriously doubt it happens in todays industry. Would they ever be allowed into that aircraft again after the owner realized that they basically risked his aircraft for a practical joke? Insurance would be void and they would be liable if it crashed. Sorry to pick at your post but there is another thing that I think it is not wise to do whilst flying jumpers,

during the drop you try to maintain the slowest possible speed to make the exit as comfortable as possibleYou say you dropped jumpers in a 206/210 and an islander, none of them are really hammering along and thrust is more of an issue in the singles whilst they are getting out so why fly "as slow as possible" if the guy who taught you told you that fair enough you don't know any better but its best to fly at a safe speed and they can just put up with it, in a 206/210 or BN2 it would be comfortable. I have even heard tandem instructors asking a porter to go faster to give them more airflow for the exit. Obviously you are not a jumper and like others have said its a good idea to start jumping if you want to start flying jumpers and then you wont be trying to go as slow as possible in a 206/210 or islander, you will be trying to fly as safely and efficiently as possible.

bose-x: BPS or Hib?

[SNS3Guppy]

Maybe happened once upon a time in the US, years and years ago in some hick town with redneck jumpers but seriously doubt it happens in todays industry. Would they ever be allowed into that aircraft again after the owner realized that they basically risked his aircraft for a practical joke? Insurance would be void and they would be liable if it crashed.

Rest assured, it still happens today, and I've never heard of anyone being banned from the drop zone because they shut off the engine on the way out. It's just not that big a deal.

If one can't hit the runway from fifteen thousand feet overhead, without power, then one shouldn't be flying. If one is concerned about practical jokes or fun at the drop zone, one is definitely in the wrong environment.

Jump pilots should be jumpers; it's hard to have the right perspective on flying jumpers if you don't skydive.

I've had jumpers hang on outside and refuse to let go until I shook them off, or stalled. One afternoon for fun, a freefall photographer and I staged fights in the airplane, each time terminating with him throwing me out (I wasn't driving at the time), to the wide-eyed stares of the tandems and students. Nobody ever complained. Horny gorillas, rodeo dives, tag, it's about fun. Pilots who don't understand jumpers probably shouldn't be flying jumpers.

[SloppyJoe]

I've had jumpers hang on outside and refuse to let go until I shook them off, or stalled. One afternoon for fun, a freefall photographer and I staged fights in the airplane, each time terminating with him throwing me out (I wasn't driving at the time), to the wide-eyed stares of the tandems and students. Nobody ever complained. Horny gorillas, rodeo dives, tag, it's about fun. Pilots who don't understand jumpers probably shouldn't be flying jumpers. Yeap all good fun, but if you stalled with someone hanging on the outside you are a fu:mad:ing idiot and should not be flying.

Jumpers don't usually understand flying so if someone asks you to stall with them on the outside chances are they won't know what the aircraft is actually going to do relative to them in freefall. Yes I jump with just over 700 so not an expert but if i heard that one of my friends got the pilot to stall whilst he was on the outside I would beat the **** out of him (pilot) and then make sure the DZO fired him for almost killing one of my mates.

Yes one should be able to land with the engine off but what if a jumper gets in the way of your glide approach? I have had to go around more times than I can remember because jumpers are in the way. What happens if the pilot does mess it up as everyone makes mistakes. I will tell you what, the plane will be wrecked and the pilot will be dead. Yeah that is a really great joke.

Its the same as the pilot pulling the jumpers cutaway and then pushing him out, how do you think that would go down, one chance to live. Your a complete idiot if you think this is ok and please tell me where you fly so I never go near the place.

[mutt]

Jump pilots should be jumpers Why? I started flying as a drop zone pilot, never jumped out of an aircraft and have no desire to do so!

flying jumpers and then you wont be trying to go as slow as possible in a 206/210 Actually, we were required to fly as slow as practical due to the fact that most of our jumpers were first timers and the drop zone considered it easier for them to stand on the step with slower speeds and idle prop wash. (C172/182)

Soarfeet We all had to start somewhere, for me it was banner towing, aerial photography, glider towing and dropping jumpers.... But this was back in the days when you could do this with a PPL :) Dropping jumpers was incredible fun due to the atmosphere of the drop zone.

Mutt

[SloppyJoe]

As slow as practical and as slow as possible are two different things. If you were flying along with the stall warning going you were flying to slow, if you were 5 knots faster than that then yeah thats about right.

[SNS3Guppy]

Yeap all good fun, but if you stalled with someone hanging on the outside you are a fuing idiot and should not be flying.

I'll let you in on a little secret. I'm not a "fuing idiot." Perhaps your lack of experience explains why you've never seen what happens when a load of jumpers goes too far aft on a tailgate exit and sits there, of what happens when enough crawl out the back on a Caravan and hang out. A CG too far aft doesn't make the pilot a "fuing idiot," you see, especially when the CG has a mind of it's own.

I've stalled intentionally with people hanging on the outside, and more than a few times I've had jumpers force me to shake them off; it's part of the game.

Why? I started flying as a drop zone pilot, never jumped out of an aircraft and have no desire to do so!

Mutt, you whuffo!

Yes I jump with just over 700 so not an expert but if i heard that one of my friends got the pilot to stall whilst he was on the outside I would beat the **** out of him (pilot) and then make sure the DZO fired him for almost killing one of my mates.

Ah, we've got one poster who's willing to knock people's teeth out for nicking the ignition keys, and you who will "beat the ****" out of your clients and get them fired for having a little safe fun. Almost killing? You're very melodramatic.

I will tell you what, the plane will be wrecked and the pilot will be dead. Yeah that is a really great joke.

Quite the drama queen. The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

The word doesn't end because the engine quits. A deadstick landing with 18,000' to plan it out isn't exactly rocket science.

Its the same as the pilot pulling the jumpers cutaway and then pushing him out, how do you think that would go down, one chance to live. Your a complete idiot if you think this is ok and please tell me where you fly so I never go near the place.

Who said anything about pulling anyone's cutaway handle and pushing them out? Put words (and stupid ideas) in your own mouth, not mine.

Removing the ignition keys isn't at all the same as disabling someone's canopy and then pushin them out of an airplane.

More of this "one chance to live" crap. Quite the thespian, aren't you?

I'd prefer you don't come near where I fly. You don't sound very safe.

[SloppyJoe]

WOW, I hope you are one of the many flightsim guys on here pretending to be a pilot and never actually get the chance to touch a real plane.

I can't reply to your post as it is too hard to make someone realize that they are risking peoples lives if they are adamant that what they do is safe.

Adamant means: utterly unyielding in attitude or opinion in spite of all appeals

Posted the explanation so you don't have to look it up.

Pulling the cutaway is the same, don't you understand what I mean, you only have one chance, dead stick or reserve. Are you really that dumb that you don't see what I am talking about?

Also what DZO would like that his 206 has just been at full power to 18,000 feet (I never heard of one going that high but thats where you said you plan it from) and then it is switched off to cool rapidly. It will probably break the engine and require a rebuild or at the very least an inspection.

[SloppyJoe]

Two killed when skydiving plane stalls | General Aviation News (http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2010/04/22/two-killed-when-skydiving-plane-stalls/)

YouTube - Islander Stall

Took two minutes to find some reasons not to intentionally stall a plane when there are people in it or outside it.

You truly are a d:mad:k

[SNS3Guppy]

Pulling the cutaway is the same, don't you understand what I mean, you only have one chance, dead stick or reserve. Are you really that dumb that you don't see what I am talking about?

You're talking stupidly.

A cutaway handle is an emergency device used to separate a main canopy's risers from the container. Using the cutaway handle on a pack-closure creates a potentially very unsafe situation which could foul the reserve on deployment, and may compromise the other canopy.

Canopy transfers and intentional cutaways are done all the time; you seem to be amazed at the concept of having only a reserve in free-fall. That's what you're left with after a cutaway. With 700 jumps, have you never cut away a canopy?

Only one "chance" to land an airplane with no power? How many "chances" do you need? If landing an airplane is a matter of chance for you, you'd best not be calling others "dumb." Step back and re-think your position before you answer.

lso what DZO would like that his 206 has just been at full power to 18,000 feet (I never heard of one going that high but thats where you said you plan it from) and then it is switched off to cool rapidly. It will probably break the engine and require a rebuild or at the very least an inspection.

I have no idea. What drop zone have you flown or jumped where 206's were climbing to 18,000? You're the only one here to suggest such a thing. Why would you switch off a Cessna 206?

Perhaps you're still mumbling about the jumper who takes the key. Carry a second key. Again, not really rocket science.

A caravan at 18,000 is an every-day occurrence, which is part of the reason that a Caravan makes an excellent jump platform. It's got room, a big door,and goes right to 18,000' with no trouble at all, and beats the jumpers back down.

[SloppyJoe]

A deadstick landing with 18,000' to plan it out isn't exactly rocket science

Your the one that said it.

The rest of what you say is not even worth replying to. I really hope you are just trying to get a rise out of people and don't actually believe what you are saying.

[PPRuNe Pop]

What the hell were you doing at 18,000 feet? That is pushing it and ignoring the very real problems that can occur to both aircraft and humans. The standards you seem to be adopting are dangerous and haven't you heard of 'shock cooling?' Engines, especially Lycomings, do not like it and is not recommended.

[trex450]

We look for people who are experienced pilots and not hours builders. The problem with hours builders is they are always looking for an exit and it has to be remembered that it costs us around £15k to train a jump pilot so we want a long term commitment.£15k?? if you can fly to a decent standard then a decent number of lifts, the minimum is four, should suffice, that is at most about 5 hours flying time. Maybe if you paid someone's ppl fees and then hours building costs afterwards this crazy figure might be reached.

[SloppyJoe]

Trex,

I expect he works for either either a dz near you in Nottingham or one further north where they operate turbine aircraft. I doubt 4 lifts would satisfy the owner let alone the insurance and then you have to get a type rating. I can see it getting up to 15K.

[SNS3Guppy]

What the hell were you doing at 18,000 feet? That is pushing it and ignoring the very real problems that can occur to both aircraft and humans. The standards you seem to be adopting are dangerous and haven't you heard of 'shock cooling?' Engines, especially Lycomings, do not like it and is not recommended.

Shock cooling a PT6A in a Cessna Caravan? Say again?

Flying at 18,000 is "pushing it?" How, exactly?

What was I doing at 18,000' dropping jumpers? Have you ever jumped or flown jumpers? How can you possibly ask that question?

What was I doing at 18,000? Flying a routine drop.

Very real problems that occur to both aircraft and humans? From flying at 18,000? It's done every day, all over the world, anywhere that aircraft are available to do it. Yes, 18,000', every day of the week.

This is a subject with which you're not familiar?

How do you "shock cool" a turbine engine again?

[SloppyJoe]

News : Lack of oxygen caused skydivers' pilot to crash (http://www.dropzone.com/news/Lackofoxygencausedskydiv.shtml)

err d:mad:k head, we were talking about a 206/210.

[mutt]

I'm curious, where did Guppy say anything about flying a Cessna 206 to 18,000 feet, I can only find his messages about the Cessna Caravan. .

Mutt

[SNS3Guppy]

Your point?

Dan Poynter's excellent products cover this thoroughly, as do each respective parachute organization.

You posted a link regarding someone who failed to maintain control of an aircraft, and who was killed by a jumper who failed to protect his reserve, in order to make your point. Your link was, therefore, in error.

You've now posted a link about a pilot who failed to use or provide oxygen, contrary to the USPA BSR's. Again, your point?

err dk head, we were talking about a 206/210.

Are you able to post without name-calling? So far, you don't appear to be able to do that.

The thread is about an individual who would like to build experience while flying jumpers, and who inquired about a way to become involved. In thread #13, you address another poster who referred to a Cessna 206. You're clearly confusing that individual with me, as I've said nothing on the subject of the Cessna 206 or 210 at all.

182 and 206 jumps are normally 14,000 to 16,000 MSL, such as density altitude and load may allow on any given day. Most of my jump flying as been at higher density-altitude mountain drop zones, with a field elevation of 5,000; the ability to reach a reasonable jump altitude varies with the time of year and the number of jumpers aboard.

Where have you seen Cessna 210's used for skydiving? Have you ever jumped one?

I provided a useful link and information specific to the original poster's request. You've spent a lot of time finding fault and name-calling, to say nothing of voicing your opinion of the violence you might do to passengers and clients. Do you think you can make a response that doesn't involve violence or name-calling?

Your the one that said it.

It's "you're," and yes, I know that I said it. I wrote it, after all, and I'll say it again: a dead stick landing with 18,000 to plan it out isn't exactly rocket science.

[SloppyJoe]

post #18
You mentioned a dead stick landing with 18,000ft to plan it. This was about taking a key out of a plane, caravans don't have keys other than for the doors.

All I am is amazed that you think it is ok to stall a plane intentionally when there is someone outside it.

I have never seen or jumped a 210 jump plane. If you re read this thread you will understand what I am talking about.

I stand by my d:mad:k head remark as you think it is ok to risk the lives of jumpers by showing off and stalling a plane with them on the outside, they may not know any better but as a commercial pilot you should.

I did not take long to find fault with your attitude and I am only calling you what you deserve to be called.

Thanks for correcting my grammar, you must be a very smart guy.

[SNS3Guppy]

He mentioned a dead stick landing with 18,000ft to plan it. This was about taking a key out of a plane, caravans don't have keys other than for the doors.

You are confused. Post 18 specifically references a Caravan, actually. Read!

That particular thread was a response to your statement that you intend to "beat the ****" out of clients at the drop zone. It was also a response to your name-calling (something contrary to the rules of this site, incidentally).

I said nothing about a Cessna 206.

Cessna 182's and 206's don't go to 18,000 with jumpers. They go to 16,000'.

A dead stick landing from 16,000 directly over the runway isn't exactly rocket science, any more than one from 18,000.'

I have never seen or jumped a 210 jump plane.

I know that.

All I am is amazed that you think it is ok to stall a plane intentionally when there is someone outside it.

How about with people inside? Is there really much of a difference?

It's not uncommon during jumps to stop the propeller, too. You've obviously never seen that, either.

You seem amazed by a lot of things that are routinely done at drop zones around the globe. A little too amazed to have any experience with jumping or flying jumpers.

I stand by my dk head remark as you think it is ok to risk the lives of jumpers by showing off and stalling a plane with them on the outside, they may not know any better but as a commercial pilot you should.

If you say you made a "dk head remark," then I won't argue with you; you know best. You really can't make a post without name-calling or referencing violence, can you? Even if it's calling yourself a name. Why is that?

No one said anything about showing off.

Quite a few of the jumpers I've flown, incidentally, are commercial pilots.

[S-Works]

SloppyJoe
*
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 34
Posts: 302
Trex,

I expect he works for either either a dz near you in Nottingham or one further north where they operate turbine aircraft. I doubt 4 lifts would satisfy the owner let alone the insurance and then you have to get a type rating. I can see it getting up to 15K.


It takes 10 hours minimum to get the type rating onto the licence as per the training approval. Then we have to teach them to drop. We are not permitted to do drop training during the type rating training. If you work on a rough costs of £800 per hour all in you get an idea of where the costs come from.

So when we train a pilot we want a return on the investment and that generally precludes someone who is going to jump ship at the first sight of a shiny people tube.

[SloppyJoe]

Who is talking about clients? If a pilot intentionally stalled a plane with a friend on the outside I would beat the **** out of him, the pilot, for risking my friends life. Who is the client?

OK I am done with this, you obviously are winding me up as you have no clue. Saying a 206 drops at 16,000 feet shows you are just some sad guy who has never flown and never will fly jumpers or anything else.

Sorry to the guy who asked the first question but I could not read the stuff this guy was saying, like it is ok to stall with someone on the outside, without replying.

[SNS3Guppy]

I did not take long to find fault with your attitude and I am only calling you what you deserve to be called.

Name calling is contrary to the rules of this forum.

Finding fault with my attitude? The attitude that one should wisely carry an extra set of keys when flying piston airplanes at a drop zone? Very dangerous that common sense stuff.

The attitude that it's okay to legally and properly fly jumpers at 18,000? I'd be thrilled to find the basis of your argument to that. Whereas it's an approved activity in an approved aircraft and conducted in accordance with the regulation, you've really no leg to stand on there, do you? You don't. I've dropped jumpers from that altitude, and jumped from that altitude many times.

The attitude that one had better have enough confidence in one's flying ability to be able to make a landing on a runway 18,000 below, on a clear, VFR day in a light airplane? You find this to be some superhuman event, then? A student pilot should be able to do that; I've never soloed a student that couldn't do a power off landing from the traffic pattern routinely and safely, and I can't imagine anyone being so incompetent or so unsure of their ability that they can't land on a runway 16,000 or 18,000 below them, while flying a light airplane on a nice, clear day. You find this a difficult concept?

The attitude that one had better be able to fly the airplane at altitude as jumpers climb out (and in some cases, stay out), or as jumpers shift the center of gravity beyond the aft limits as sometimes happens on a tailgate exit or a rear exit? You find it incredible that one should be expected to maintain control of one's aircraft at all times? I find it rather incredible that one could find such a basic concept incredible.

You find name-calling justified, then? Would the editing moderator who is concerned about shock-cooling a turbine engine kindly review the rules regarding name-calling on this web site?

Thanks for correcting my grammar, you must be a very smart guy.

You're welcome. I'm told that I am, but of course, if you say so.

Who is talking about clients? If a pilot intentionally stalled a plane with a friend on the outside I would beat the **** out of him, the pilot, for risking my friends life. Who is the client?

We've got one poster talking about breaking a jumper's teeth out, and you talking about "beating the ****" out of the pilot. Quite the professional ensemble there. In the professional world, everyone is your client. Your passengers, your dispatchers, the people who work on the aircraft, the fuelers, everyone. This may not be the case in your world, but it certainly is among professionals.

OK I am done with this, you obviously are winding me up as you have no clue. Saying a 206 drops at 16,000 feet shows you are just some sad guy who has never flown and never will fly jumpers or anything else.

You're certainly wound up, with the name-calling and physical threats. I'll give you that. It's not me doing it, however; it's something you've managed by yourself.

Of course a Cessna 206 can drop jumpers at 16,000. I've done it many times. Never been sad about it, either. As for flying jumpers "or anything else," there are lots of other "else's" but that's not really relevant to the thread now, is it?

[john_tullamarine]

I'm now way out of touch with jump flying. Guess we were just lucky years ago in Oz. Lightie jump training consisted of a discussion brief over coffee, usually one observation ride - two if the newchum was a bit slow .. and then, away you went on your own.

Subsequently the jumpers were very good at training the new pilot over the course of a couple of sorties by briefing afterwards - and none too gently if the new chap was a bit slow on the uptake. By the time one had half a dozen jumps the basics were well and truly under the belt.

Mind you, jump flying in the DC3 was much more interesting when the occasional jumper would climb out on the tailplane and then refuse to jump but that's another story.

[PPRuNe Pop]

This thread has lost its way unfortunately. It is full of bad advice and bad practices. I am very familiar with para dropping and operating turbines at DZ's - NOT above 13,000' but more usually 12,000'. To ignore the possibilities that lack of oxygen can bring is sheer madness and incrediby bad airmanship. Remember it is NOT allowed in the UK.

As for anyone removing the keys as a prank - the offender should be grounded never to jump again. Taking "spares keys" is NOT an argument and such an incident could easily lead to a crash.

Feel free to start another thread but Guppy will not be joining you.

Read the link above about hypoxia - its dynamite.

And by the way - swearing is not allowed PPRuNe. If you cannot debate without it don't post.

PPP