Whats the value of an A license?

[hightower1986]

Evening all, I have recently applied for a few of the aircraft mechanic apprentice jobs advertised with a few airlines and am wondering how involved the A license is?

From my understanding I would obviously become the apprentice and I assume I would be working towards the EASA A license, am I right in thinking you need 3 years experience to gain this?

What I would like to know is: how much would an A licence earn me? or is just a step towards the B licence? Also Should I be successful and gain the A license, is it normal practice for companies then put you through the B license?
Does the A license basically allow you to do levels and basic jobs under a B1/B2?

I read somewhere that the B license requires 5 yrs experience before it can be issued or 3-4 years if you have a formal qualification in a skilled trade(which i do) can any one else confirm this?

I have tried the search function with not too much help, so if people could answer or give me some pointers it would be appreciated!

And yes whilst Google is normally my friend it seems to be a being a bit hazy with the answers I need or offering me jobs!:sad:

[NutLoose]

Have a read through this then ask away :)

ELGD | Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=177&pagetype=68&gid=777)

[GGIPunjab]

Thanks for sharing this important link with us. This is very important. I get some important information from you.
Thanks again....

[flame_bringer]

If you're unemployed and have 0 hands-on, An A license is worth nothing, thats just my point of view.
If you're a mechanic already and have conformed to the A licence criteria then it'll benefit you a lot including elevating the chance of you being promoted from an unlicensed technician to a licensed technician which is what the A licence is for.
Many of my mates who were technicians and got the A licence are now on much better dosh and a much wider opening for them to gain further work experience to be qualified as B1 licensed engineers since the A licence is the inaugural stage of being a competent B1 holder.
So what I suggest is, Find a job first then bother with the licenses and stuff otherwise you'd be seriously wasting your time and money with a valueless qualification (it's of no value with 0 experience in terms of job prospects).

[the_company_spy]

Whats the value of an A license?

Absolutely nothing (If you have half a brain and aptitude)

Why bother going half way?

[hightower1986]

thanks for that flame-bringer that's what I was hoping to hear.
Whilst I do have a brain and aptitude I ask because the apprenticeship for which I have applied is to gain an A license at the end, I would however like to achieve a B license as an end result.

Going half way therefore to an A license seems to be the best option towards the B, I understand that the paper itself is fairly poor and not likely to earn any job offers but hopefully I would be gaining the experience also.

Is it normal for companies to offer to train you to B license standard if you start with them as a newbie? or would I generally have to pay for my own training course?
Thanks also to Nutloose for the link, that again was what I was after.

See people PPRuNe isn't always full of negative unhelpful people.
(just most of the time!):ok:

[flame_bringer]

As to your second question, That purely depends on your company and whether they need to give apprenticships for a B1 licence or not, All comes down to the company demands.
However it's like I said, a licence is worth nothing with no hands-on, you need to be on the tools atleast for 1 year, then 3 more years signing for your own work with your A licence then only you can move onto a B1 licence if you want to be competent enough.
so don't rush it you'll eventually get your licenses even if it needs from you to pay for it from your money, after all this period you would have saved sufficient money to sponsor yourself for the B course.
concentrate on the hands-on as of now.

[Dodo56]

If you have read the other zillion "I want to be an engineer" threads on here you may well have noticed the big Catch-22 is hands-on experience. If you can get that there are many routes to the theoretical side.

Treat the A licence as the means to an end by all means, it's a worthwhile step in its own right, but most importantly if it gets you working on aircraft you have a foot on the ladder and that is the hardest foothold to get.

:ok:

[hightower1986]

Thank you, yes the main issue I see from the distance learning courses (which don't appeal to me) is the lack of the vital "hands on experience" And so whilst the A license may not be that highly regarded for possible employers, it is a step in the right direction.

Are there any ex recent apprentice's on here? The money to begin with is simply shocking yet id still be prepared to work for it as again its gaining the experience which counts, just wondered how other people coped with the money flow situation?

Thanks again for the info

[spannersatcx]

Are there any ex recent apprentice's on here? The money to begin with is simply shocking yet id still be prepared to work for it as again its gaining the experience which counts, just wondered how other people coped with the money flow situation?

Subsidised by a parent, i.e. me :eek:

[hightower1986]

will you adopt me and subsidise me? :)
(or just subsidise me?)

[pegasus-9]

The Cat A can be of use to an employer as it allows approval for tasks shown at AMC 145.A.30 (g) to be granted without the need for a full type rating. But you are better of holding the B1 with type rating as most employers will pay approval pay.

[danjenkins]

Just finishing my apprenticeship with BA now, got all bar 2 modules of my A license and can safely say it will never compare to the hand skills I've gained and the experience but if its offered on a plate take it, the license its self is simple enough to complete.

regarding the comment on money

I'm on 13k final year without shift, money for me isn't a problem as I'm always in work (or so it feels) jumps to 23k as a Mech

[Safety Concerns]

you can't say anything. You've been in the business 2 minutes and have a mouth wider than the Mersey tunnel.

Get some time in. Learn the profession not just the job and then maybe, just maybe you may grow a few more brain cells, complete your modules and realise what a stupid post yours was.

[danjenkins]

Safety concerns,

can you explain your comment as I'm totally bemused by it.

I don't take kindly to be insulted by strangers for no reason what so ever?

[Alber Ratman]

Old Age and Treachery will conquer over Youth and Skill...:E:E

[spannersatcx]

will you adopt me and subsidise me? :)
(or just subsidise me?)

If you're blonde, wear short skirts, DD then not a problem. :E

[Safety Concerns]

dan, you will have to remain bemused. The younger generation can only be helped so much, the rest you will have to learn the had way.

Alber, I take very kindly to being insulted by strangers, especially for no reason whatsoever. Thank you very much.

[danjenkins]

"The younger generation can only be helped so much, the rest you will have to learn the had way."

Are you for real or what?

what was the point in your post, to antagonise me? more of an ego boost? both clearly worked!

How have you constructively helped this thread at all, you haven't helped in the slightest and were has this age thing come from all of a sudden, this is a web site about aviation for professionals and for hobbies!

I would like to point out mind, this specific thread is about starting out in the industry and for the "might wise one" such as your self should be offering me and such likes advice, not put me down at the first chance you get.

I'm glad my engineers don't have the attitude you have for my sake.

[Safety Concerns]

be careful what you can safely say!!!!!!!!!!
you are still in nappies

[danjenkins]

I'm sorry, I can safely say?

56 years old, I wouldn't be surprised if your in nappies as well

[TURIN]

Dan, rise above it. He's not worth it.

For what it's worth, your posts appear erudite and articulate (bar any spelling cock-ups;)) which is no bad thing these days. It's more than can be said for some.

Best of luck. :ok:

[danjenkins]

cheers mate, nice to see some ones on my side

[hightower1986]

Yeah cheers for that danjenkins, I'm on your side also, as I could be in your position and receive such unhelpful negative comments from people like safetyconcerns!

If the CAA are happy enough to issue a license to danjenkins then he is obviously no concern!

The post was helpful to me as it is information I am looking for, yours however wasn't!

I spoke too soon about PPRuNe not being full of negative comments!:ugh:

[MATMAX]

Back to the thread , an A license , nearly useless in Europe ...

[MATMAX]

clown , can you please develop your thinking ?

[MATMAX]

Are you just jealous of the Frenchies ...? hihihi...

[MATMAX]

Mate , may i suggest you to go out from Australia to have a more opened mind and to see whats going on in old Europe ...?

[MATMAX]

and maybe leave a "missing valve cap" on a tyre ... pfff ...

[MATMAX]

hey , hey !

[Alber Ratman]

Safety Concern.. The saying comes from an old 8Sqn t shirt from the 80's. It was a laugh, but as it looks like you have little sense of humour, well it might have a grain of truth in it. Dan, as an apprentice almost finishing his time, it is still wise to keep ones voice low and hearing turned to high. Even Safety Corcern and Matmax do not know everything, because its impossible for a human being to remember and retain everything on a subject. They also tend to have some bad habits that get picked up over time. These show up with "Well I've always done it this way" that bears no relation to the AMM..:E

[73NGEng]

To the original poster:
As a B1 737NG engineer I would like to dispel the myth that the A license is a stepping stone to the B license. To achieve an Cat A license you must pass about 13 modules in whatever category you have chosen. The same applies to getting a B license except the exams are harder. With a little bit of extra work a person who is attempting to get an A license could easily (if they are so inclined) get the B license. I am seeing lot of you guys coming out of training with A licenses who were/are more than capable of achieving a B license but were informed that they "should get the A first" Now they will have to go and sit (and pay for) another 13 modules and study for them again, all while working. They are wasting another few years working and being paid at Cat A levels when they could potentially have been earning a lot more money gaining valuable B1 signing experience.

To get the B1 you will need a minimum of 2 years hands on the aircraft work experience (5 years if you have never had formal 147 approved training) to get the B1. In those 2 years you could pass all the modules required and be a full signing B1 engineer which would mean at the end of those 2 years you are now experienced enough (under part 66 guidelines) to apply for the license provided of course you have passed all the modules. Also remember even if you do not get a type course straight away you can still be signing as a Cat A.

The single most important point I would like to make is: If you or any person wishing to get a career in aircraft engineering thinks he/she has the brains to achieve a B license then move to do so from the very start. A Cat A license while being a perfectly legitimate career option, is not a stepping stone. Get all your basic training and testing out of the way in your training years. You will not have the time or the support to do it easily in later years.

Another point I would like to make is: If you are interested in a career in this industry then please try to get yourself into a good apprenticeship. It is the best way to learn all there is know about the job. You get the benefit of formal training in a college with essential real world work practices of a professional environment. (and you get paid to be there). These "college boy" types I am seeing coming out of purely theoretical training courses with all the modules and no clue about how to grease a landing gear are not impressing me, my colleagues or the managers I work with and for. In a job interview if it came down to two identical candidates and one had a formal apprenticeship and the other did not then I would take the ex apprentice every time.

Please see this document issued by the Irish Aviation Authority but based on the europe wide part 66 rules for further info on what it takes to become a B1 licensed engineer. Pay particular attention to page 6.

Irish Aviation Authority - Document Details (http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=93&n=97&a=225&pp=422&nn=404&lID=48)

[danjenkins]

"Dan, as an apprentice almost finishing his time, it is still wise to keep ones voice low and hearing turned to high."

I still fail to see how my comment has any relevance to my statement above. I merely gave my perspective and thoughts on the A license and experience to which you have agreed with in your own words, which is very good advice.

As far as one person knowing it all I totally agree although I still cant see the relevance, no matter how simple the task the AMM is there for a reason and is just as important as any tool we uses in my eyes.

Anyway bite over and back to the question at hand.

I did ask my training co-ords if I could sit the B1 mods instead of the A1s as the B1 and for reasons unknown to me they said no, not my call.

A question I do have and hasn't come up in this thread.

With an A license do you need a type rating?

If so

what sort of level of detail will it go into? I'm guessing gen fam stuff?

cheers Dan

[Alber Ratman]

A licence certifying rights is a company approval.. no type course but revelent local training/OJT/company board. As you are an apprentice at a Base MRO (guessing you are), the A Licence means nothing (as you should well know). Companies don't like people doing the B modules, because once they have a ticket/rating/approval.. they are most likely going to do a runner and the company will not get the benifits of their investment in the apprentice. I do know one MRO that is teaching/allowing the young guys/gals to do the B exams.. however the Sister Base youngsters are only getting City and Guilds!:eek:

You can have your say Dan, it's a web forum. Just do yourself a favour and think twice then shout once when outside.. Career will progress faster if you do. Take that from somebody that didn't.:eek:

[Helicopterfixerman]

With regards to the original question, I would say the apprenticeship is of more value than the A Licence per se. From my point of view it was a valuable foot in the door to the industry and a low risk way to learn the basics. The A-licence was part of the apprenticeship, an obligation, part of the terms of employment, and was non-negotiable (i.e. I'd rather have done a B1.3.) As far as my company is concerned, their thinking was that they felt they'd have a higher pass rate from the apprentices at A level than B level, and at least at the end of the apprenticeship they'd have a full class of A Licenced certifying mechanics able to certify line tasks (in theory at least) rather than perhaps half B Licensed and half with no certifying rights.

It is debatable in my eyes whether or not the A Licence course is THAT much easier to pass (or rather whether the B Licence course is THAT much harder.)

Whilst it is of course true that even with an A Licence most of the modules will need to be studied again, in the case of A3 to B1.3, module 9 doesn't need to be re-sat, only a small part of 10 needs to be re-sat and none of the essays need to be re-sat. That at least was correct at the time I sat my B Licence exams, although that may have changed. The CAA website has details I believe.

From experience, this industry is very very difficult to get into, and if I were you, which I was some time ago, I'd take the apprenticeship with both hands as a means to an end. Admittedly the apprenticeship wages are poor, but within five years you could potentially increase that salary by a factor of 4ish.

[Capot]

I realise it's a bit late but on reading

Have a read through this then ask away :)

ELGD | Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=177&pagetype=68&gid=777)

I would caution anyone that even the CAA now say that this document cannot be relied on as some of the detail is now out of date. I don't know when they plan to update it but perhaps fairly soon. Meanwhile it's best to check the detail with the current version of Part 66 and its amendments on the EASA website.

[win_faa]

In response to the original poster

First, lets look what the regs (145.A.30g) say...

(g) Any organisation maintaining aircraft, except where stated otherwise in paragraph (j), shall in the case of aircraft line maintenance, have appropriate aircraft type rated certifying staff qualified as category B1 and B2 in accordance with Part-66 and 145.A.35.

In addition such organisations MAY also use appropriately TASK TRAINED certifying staff qualified as category A in accordance with Part-66 and 145.A.35 to carry out minor scheduled line maintenance and simple defect rectification.

The second paragraph tells us that in a line maintenance environment a Cat A certifying satff is considered optional and not mandatory for a Part-145 to employ. Also, Cat A only requires task training on specific task on specific aircraft type, therefore type rating is not required for a Cat A.

Now lets look at what the AMC145.A.30(g) say to see what a Cat A is allowed to do...

2. Typical tasks permitted after appropriate task training to be carried out by the
category A for the purpose of the category A issuing an aircraft certificate of release to service as specified in 145.A.50 as part of minor scheduled line maintenance or simple defect rectification are contained in the following list:
a. Replacement of wheel assemblies.
b. Replacement of wheel brake units.
c. Replacement of emergency equipment
and the list goes on ...

Therefore, a Cat A can actually issue an aircraft CRS, (i.e. a techlog release in line maintenance) but only for those task authorised and specific to the aircraft only.