EFT Worries [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

VinRouge

26th Mar 2011, 10:10

Sit down with the map and "walk the route", imagining what features you will see. An example, a route may be pretty featureless, but, for example, is there a big mast at the end of the leg you can fly to? Big to small, difficult if you are in east anglia or by cranners as its so darned flat! Pick turning points that a mole couldnt miss; reservoirs, masts (on hills), chimneys stand out like the dogs.

Get your pre-hats and post-hats nailed. You can increase your capacity by calculating the drifts prior to getting airbourne and chinagraphing them in your route. once your post hats are done, focus on a good lookout and fly the aircraft accurately one time, Also, compare safety alts to airways above you, nothing more embarrassing than LL abort straight into a control zone! It may seem a bit extreme, but on a damp day with little flying, go and sit in an aircraft and go through the actions you will take at each event, setting the heading, imagining flying the speed, it will work wonders.

other than this, make sure the instructors know you are putting the work in. I used to do a lot of route study when at linton, as I was p*ss poor at low level nav. It got me through. My instructor on one sortie took my map and asked without reference to the map to talk through the route. He wasnt expectign post box detail; what he wanted to know was that if I clocked the wind turbines just north of newcastle airport I needed to turn as I was about to bust their airspace!

Most important point though, if you are flying on heading, on airspeed and have done your route prep correctly, NEVER talk yourself into a ground fix 30 degrees off track unless you are certain; if you get to your turn point on time and you have been flying accurately, and you havent seen your fix, its probably underneath you!

Finally, we all make mistakes, dont beat yourself up about it. If we were all so awesome at nav, we wouldnt have invented GPS. Its a capacity exercise just as much as a navex; capacity, despite what others have you believe is not about being a sky god, its more about doing the RIGHT SORT of preparation before a sortie.

Oh, and when you get to Linton, make sure the compass is set to magnetic and not Gyro!

Yarpy

26th Mar 2011, 10:14

One of the best pieces of advice from a QFI:

"Next time you have a sh*t take your radio aids map with you"

Quite seriously we were taught a process called the 'dry swim'. This means going though your next navex, step by step, in your head. Go through all your calculations until the steps become automatic and natural. When you have got it all buttoned up you will get airborne with more spare capacity.

I got lost several times during basic flying training. Once at low level, once at high level and once at night. I even got my QFI lost!

Each time I went back to my room and re worked my calculations. On one occasion it was a simple matter of putting the wind dot on my Dalton Computer in the wrong place.

Even if it means canceling a weekend and sitting in your room for a couple of days practicing it really is worth it. My experience was that there were few naturally gifted military pilots. The ones who got through were grafters - and they usually went round posing that they didn't need to do the work.

There were definitely guys who were chopped because they thought the could 'wing it' on ability.

Best of luck and stick at it.

Slowlow

26th Mar 2011, 10:29

Thanks guys.

Just frantically practicing maths at the mo. I've managed to get through OASC, IOT and the most recently aptitude based cuts so I'd be bloody annoyed to fail now.

So in short, fly the route in my room.

Cracking.

Wholigan

26th Mar 2011, 10:30

To be quite honest, in my opinion the best thing you could do would be to walk up to your instructor and say straight out that you are having problems with this (he will know that) and that you would really like some help in coming to really understand what you are doing and how to do things quickly and accurately. That's what he's there for.

In my experience, he will be glad to spend some extra time with you and he'll also appreciate both your honesty and the fact that you are aware that you are not quite cracking it yet.

That would be a MUCH better way of getting it sorted than coming into PPRuNe and getting what will inevitably be a morass of contradictory advice and "tips".

Bite the bullet and do it.

Fintastic

26th Mar 2011, 10:30

The clue is in the title. Keep it simple by looking out of the window as much as you can. This is the best thing for keeping your SA high. With the mental arithmetic, practice, practice, practice. Get used to manipulating the 1:60 rule for headwind & tailwind.

Work through as many problems as you can on the ground, go through as many 'what if's' at the planning stage, such as diversions, weather re-routing, high ground etc and it will free up some capacity in the air.

Good luck!:ok:

Diablo Rouge

26th Mar 2011, 10:41

Sounds patronising, so apologies for that, but have faith in both clock and compass, both have been serving travellers well for centuries and early aviators had nothing else unless you scrape the barrel and add the stars. With short legs an error has to be big to be significant. (1 in 60 rule)

Map study and more map study and typically 5 miles either side of track. Aircrew cunning; if there is a nav aid en-route, use it unless told otherwise, and even if so, it shows that the blinkers have a field of view beyond that of a toilet role. I always chuckle when I pass abeam a VOR clearly visible with no aircraft nav aids tuned into it. TACAN can give a distance if using DME.

Finally, I was on board a multi man aircraft during a students Nav Check sortie. The sortie ran on rails in terms of both timing and position and I thought it sure to be an 'A' pass. He got a C+ because he had not used the taught (leap-frog) procedures at all, and whilst a pass is a pass, there is clearly a game to play also and these days being top of the class can be the differance between getting a cockpit or not.

Have a map stored away that includes Diversion airfields well off the planned route. I have seen an aircraft 25 miles off track to circumvent a thunderstorm, again thinking bigger picture.

Bob Viking

26th Mar 2011, 10:59

The poor lad's at EFT, on the Nav phase. The art of Radio Aids Nav, at low level, might be stretching things a little.
BV's advice?
Don't plan legs too short becasue your work rate will be too high.
Always, always pick waypoints with lots of vertical extent (Lincolnshire reservoirs always look awesome on the map but will screw you over every time!).
Thirdly, and by far the most important, is relax. Whilst spending every waking hour route-studying seems like it'll bear fruit you need to make time to chill out. Get to the bar/gym/cinema (whatever floats your boat) occasionally.
BV:ok:

BEagle

26th Mar 2011, 11:11

During training, we always had the mantra:

Plan accurately
Fly accurately
Think ahead

However, when I went through CFS 20 years later, I thought that the teaching of basic navigation was probably the worst taught of all topics - and it wasn't much better at the UAS. Pet theories, half-remembered previous methods and a dismal lack of standardisation. Worst of all was the concept of pre-flight planning based upon some fast-jet LL 420KIAS technique applied with little thought to a 120KIAS aeroplane at ML.

Since those days, I hear that the RAF doesn't even teach the use of a nav computer for pre-flight planning, but attempts to do so using MDR. Now, whilst MDR is an excellent technique for in-flight use, it is totally inadequate for accurate pre-flight planning; anyone producing a flight plan based on MDR would probably fail the navigation section of a simple civvy puddlejumper PPL Skill Test before ever getting airborne. A good grounding in accurate medium level navigation doesn't take many sorties (some of which MUST be flown solo), but my suspicion is that the F-J mafia has decided that ML nav is for girls and that LL techniques are the only way. I hope I'm wrong, because that really would be utter bolleaux!

Not that long ago, we had a pilot from Valley who'd decided to leave the RAF so was doing some pre-PPL Skill Test training. He said that he'd never used a nav computer and his pre-flight planning was all still-air! He needed to be completely re-taught the basics of navigation; however, at least he was fully conversant with the SCA technique - which certainly does work well even at 90 knots.

That said, always remember that navigation cannot be that hard - even navigators can manage it....:p!!

Good luck!!

Fox3WheresMyBanana

26th Mar 2011, 11:30

General awareness can be helped by finding a net of features on your area map, so that the maximum distance between any two is less than twice your min inflight vis. This way you can always see one of them.
Mark and memorise them. A few a day, whilst on the bog as others have advised.
I seem to remember I needed just under 40 for the whole of Wales.
You will probably need different features for low and medium level.
This should mean that you never get lost at BFT, are able to free nav easily at AFT, and keep SA on the front line.
Like everything else, it's quite a lot of work the first time, but much easier later.
You can also do it route by route. Probably only need 5/6 features for a typical ml navex. Ups your confidence too.

jpboy

26th Mar 2011, 11:39

Plenty of advice so far chum, my tupenceworth;

Keep it simple, try to keep the big picture (easy said I know!).

Clock is God- Event cycle will stop you maxing yourself out trying to thumbcrawl along track eg Post-HAT Cx complete, next event is at ?min/sec, map down and LOOKOUT.

Scan
-Lookout for Big feature ahead/other traffic
-Picture for msd
-Instruments for hdg/airspeed/power/CLOCK -next event

Practise mdr esp clock code for drift + g'speed.

Route study as advice already given esp flying the route through on the gnd, give yourself a wind to mdr crunch HAT Cx, ask what if I get a div/Wx avoid and think it through.

The QFIs may look all calm, they will have plenty of local knowledge probably having been there plenty of times before. Take any pilot in a trg aircraft to an unfamiliar area and all will use the techniques- trust them they work!

BEagle

26th Mar 2011, 11:51

Occasionally you meet the odd person who has other problems with navigation....

When I was at Biggin Hill doing my post-Bucc/pre-Vulcan reselection session (brightened up considerably by the presence of several chopped fighter control WRAFlettes), a mate turned up for reselection who was the last person I would have expected to have seen there. I knew him from JP/Gnat/Hunter days as being pretty $hit-hot; he'd always breezed the courses and had been posted to the Harrier - the top posting there was in those days.

"WTF are you doing here, mate?", I asked him, "was the Harrier that difficult - I always thought you were the ace of the base!"
"Oh, I could fly the jet OK - and that V/STOL stuff is quite fun really. It's just that they discovered I couldn't really map read! I got through training on heading and time and flew as accurately as I could, so never got off track or particularly early/late. But I'd no b£oody idea where I actually was for most of the time!"

We didn't do 'free nav' in those days -it was all 'heading and time'; the LFAs were tiny and it was only when he got onto the Harrier that they realised he probably couldn't even find his own ar$ehole without a mirror, let alone some obscure ground feature.

But he didn't get posted to Vulcans as were most of us - they sent him to the F-4 as at least it carried a navigator!

c130jbloke

26th Mar 2011, 12:10

Slowlow,

All of this is well intended, but ignore it.

Read post #7 and act on it. If you do take on any of this and then screw it up (likey as you have not been taught its application) you are one trip closer to a review. Also, if you come out with some weird and wonderful nav your instructor may well ask how / where did it come from....

Clue:

Answering " I got it off some people on Pprune" will not endear you to anyone - so do the mature thing and talk to your instructor. Its actually a plus point to identify your own weaknesses and then act to resolve them.

Two's in

26th Mar 2011, 12:58

Don't overlok the obvious - map reading and navigation are 2 complimentary, but different, things. Make sure you are doing the right one at the right time. If there are no major features or "handrails" to lead you in, navigation will get you there; if there are good vertical and IP type features, use the map. Just know which technique works best, but good use of the clock and compass will always decrease your circular error of proabability on the map.

you decide to ask for help on a military spotters internet forum?

I assume you've still not heard anything back about that job with the Diplomatic Corps yet?

Flap62

26th Mar 2011, 13:39

Plan accurately
Fly accurately
Think ahead

Excellent advice BEagle (assuming you want to take advice from someone that's been chopped off at least 2 FJ types)

I seem to remember I needed just under 40 for the whole of Wales.

That'll be why you ended up on F3s then!!!

Ignore all the chaff and ask your instructors - that's what they're there for. If you still can't crack it keep going, if you then still can't crack it - give up. There's no point being a bloody fool about it.

BEagle

26th Mar 2011, 13:41

Perhaps you could contribute something useful rather than just some stupid sniping?

Flap62

26th Mar 2011, 13:45

I did say excellent advice!

By the way, which point are you contesting, the quality of advice or the number of types you've been chopped from?

Could be the last?

26th Mar 2011, 13:52

Have a look in AP3456 there are a number of chapters that can help you out. Otherwise, speak to the Basic Nav instructors on 55Sqn (if they are still there) there is a wealth of experience and they teach it how it should be done!

DamianF

26th Mar 2011, 16:25

Wholigan is spot on. Give yourself and your Instructor the opportunity to talk through and solve the problem, tailored for you.

Your instructor will know it anyway, and will welcome the chance to help you.

Spanish Waltzer

26th Mar 2011, 16:45

Make use of Google maps or similar when doing route study prior to flying. Will help you learn to read the maps better & be able to visualise what features will look like. Also helps give you confidence & capacity when you hit turning points etc that you are at the right place.

Keep smiling!

SW

teeteringhead

26th Mar 2011, 19:44

And never be tempted to read "ground to map". Lots of stuff on the ground ain't on the map, but everything on the map (unless you really seriously lost!) is down there (as Lord Prescott said) on terra cotta. :ok:

But do talk to the instructors ......

Yarpy

26th Mar 2011, 20:42

Interesting the bit about talking to your instructor. When I went through BFTS (circa quite a long time ago) QFI's told you what was expected and then you were left to come up with the goods. If you didn't you were bollocked for not being resourceful and using your initiative. I.e. you were expected to be self reliant because, as a pilot, there's usually no one else to ask when you are in a sticky situation.

The idea of asking for 'help' seems more of a contemporary culture. Even ten (ish) years ago when I got my civvy jet command you were allowed a few weeks of grace when you could phone a manager and ask for advice. After that cooling off period you were expected to come up with the goods no questions answered.

Has the culture of flying training changed?

FIGHTER PILOT Landing Instruction - TV Series 1981
Vdeo FIGHTER PILOT Landing Instruction - TV Series 1981 en VIDEOS.es (http://www.videos.es/reproductor/fighterpilotlandinginstruction-tvseries1981-(Ovo_-cQIBoM)

airborne_artist

26th Mar 2011, 20:52

RA

If on the other hand you are being serious, and somehow I think you are, then does google maps show all controlled airspace? No!Google Earth has an overlay with controlled airspace here (https://groups.google.com/group/cloudbaseparagliding/browse_thread/thread/8a9ae249758049e9?hl=en) :8

London Eye

26th Mar 2011, 20:54

Flap 62,

I think that the point being politely made was that:

Ignore all the chaff and ask your instructors - that's what they're there for. If you still can't crack it keep going, if you then still can't crack it - give up. There's no point being a bloody fool about it.

was advice (not many of us would disagree with it - and already eloquently put by Wholigan) and everything above it in your post was unnecessary sniping. Of course you might describe it as banter but it missed the 'humor' bit slightly; or perhaps you were saying that only Harrier pilots are qualified to give advice...:hmm:

Slowlow

26th Mar 2011, 21:10

Thanks for the good advice. As for asking the instructors, I'm right on that. Just seeing if there was any tips from the experienced aircrew among you lot.

As for the rather dubious posts that were just mocking me for asking advice I can only assume you are perfect aviators.

oldpinger

26th Mar 2011, 21:27

Slowlow BRAVO:ok::D
Would that be "perfect aviators" or perfect arse*****s?

Having a little experience in the field, from a student there is no such thing as a dumb question!

Good luck

BEagle

26th Mar 2011, 21:32

Whilst it's fine to ask for advice, you're far better off actually speaking to the instructional staff.

Earlier I wrote that:
Since those days, I hear that the RAF doesn't even teach the use of a nav computer for pre-flight planning, but attempts to do so using MDR.

However, I'm grateful for having received a PM which stated:
Students are taught at DEFTS and RAF EFTS how to use the Dalton Computer. They use it for all of their nav planning.

Could someone at EFTS confirm that this latter statement is indeed correct and that the use of a navigation computer is still part of your ML navigation planning process these days?

I certainly hope that you use a nav computer (whether whizz-wheel or electronic) for pre-flight navigation planning.

Slowlow

26th Mar 2011, 22:08

at the mo it's all MDR which is fine but I've got a whiz wheel too from my PPL days.

I'm just very conscious of the current climate and lack of cockpits at the end of training. Good isn't good enough as far as I'm concerned.

Cheers lads and ladies

Cragrat

27th Mar 2011, 01:16

Slowlow the best piece of advice that anyone has given you on here is to ask the staff. I struggled at Nav during EFT and didn't ask for help in fear of losing marks at streaming. Sitting on the other side of the fence I can tell you it was complete hoop!

Use the techniques that you were taught at groundschool and have been taught during your Mass Brief. I would strongly suggest you do not use Google Earth as pre-flight route study nor would I rely on your whizz wheel, speaking from experience you wont always have them available. You are being assessed against common techniques and an approved marking guide.

Top marks for taking the initiative but are you really surprised at some of the comments offered? Don't fret over recent events, it really is back to work as normal. Don't make it worse by adding excessive self-induced pressure, as you said you're only a few nav trips in!

Good luck

foldingwings

27th Mar 2011, 10:15

Everybody offering good advice but it's mainly what works for them. Listen to Wholigan and c130jbloke's advice and talk to your QFI. They're not ALL out to get you and he should be sympathetic! After all, he's there to instruct!

Foldie
(A Nav):ok:

noprobs

27th Mar 2011, 14:49

As the current EFT squadrons are located alongside UASs, there is a place you can go to find an experienced instructor who is not in your command chain with whom to have a quiet chat.

Ivor Fynn

27th Mar 2011, 15:12

Slowlow, as an ex instructor with a few hours (not as many as Wholigan), his words are by far the wisest. Go and speak with your instructor, be honest, he is there to help.

Ivor

blaireau

27th Mar 2011, 16:38

Way back when, I recall CinC Flying Training Command, (one Paddy Dunn) state that there was "no such thing as a bad student, only bad instructors". Still think it's a bit dubious!

Diablo Rouge

27th Mar 2011, 18:58

"no such thing as a bad student, only bad instructors". Still think it's a bit dubious!

I have done more then my fair share of chop rides (as examiner) and I believe this statement to be true. OASC do the coarse filtering and IOT/AAITC do the fine filtering, thereafter the mission of all in support is to get the boys and girls to their respective cockpits/cabins.

There will always be the odd one getting through the net but they usually get their cumuppence sooner rather then later. Interestingly, it is usually the bad instructors who disagree with this statement.

The worst example I have come across was a fastball* 5pm briefing in which the instructor started the briefing with "Big boys rules, there will be no questions...Questions?" Either the course had colluded to save a course member or this was true, and happily the course member on review got to fly another day after being taught properly.
*Schedule change due to weather limitations on the following days weather forecast.

Bob Viking

27th Mar 2011, 19:02

I am prepared for the inevitable lambasting that will shortly be sent my way but I really fail to see the point of the bloody thing!
I haven't used one since BFJT groundschool (the only time I used it before that was at EFT groundshcool!). It seems to me that it's a legacy piece of kit that exists purely so old school aviators can teach it's use to the new breed. I can't think of a use for it in my field (FJs) and I struggle to see how any other branch of the military aviation fraternity is using it in any meaningful sense. Some on this forum denigrate the use of MDR but I'd suggest it breeds just the type of pilots we're after. Guys who can think on their feet and who appreciate that you can't plan for every eventuality. Also, apart from during PPLs and private flying is it really used much in the civilian world (or does everyone take a Garmin flying with them on their cross-country trips)?
I know there will be plenty of folks on here who will talk with great reverence about the days when there was no GPS/INS/TERPROM to rely on but those days are now gone. There are barely any aircraft left with Navigators and those that have them don't really use them for navigating.
This all leads me to question the validity of the Dalton Computer in military aviation in toto.
I look forward to the collective repostes.
BV:cool:

BEagle

27th Mar 2011, 19:57

Bob, whilst MDR is excellent for many things, it is inadequate for pre-flight navigation planning. OK, you can assess the drift and obtain a heading, but you cannot calculate a sufficiently accurate groundspeed for low-performance puddlejumpers whose GS is vastly more affected by the wind at medium levels than is the GS of a FJ is at low level. Or at least you can't unless you use some pointlessly complicated fractions of miles per minute. Whereas a 20 kt surface wind makes bugger all difference to a FJ (or even that Brazilian POS which replaced the JP5...), the same wind will be stronger and have a significantly greater effect on a Plastic Pig lumbering along at 120KIAS at 2000 ft....

By the time most people have gone through the mental gymnastics to use MDR for pre-flight planning, they could just as easily have done some accurate planning with a navigation computer.

I don't view the Dalton per se as being mandatory - an electronic nav computer is much better as it is quicker. But I do believe in reducing the sources of pre-flight planning errors to the practical minimum, where possible, so that in-flight correction should become simpler.

Tankertrashnav

27th Mar 2011, 20:50

Slowlow - No real advice from me, but just a word of sympathy. I was a nav a long time ago and ended up with just shy of 2000 hours in my logbook - nothing to shout about, but just enough to say I wasn't a complete novice at the black art.

Anyway a few years back I started a PPL. Everyone knew I was an ex nav and used to say "of course, the nav side will be easy for you". Well I soon learned there was a world of difference between navigating on a nice steady table with a pilot(s) flying the aircraft for me, and doing it on a folded map while trying to keep on altitude and heading at the same time. Easy it wasnt! Anyway I got through the nav stage ok, and I am sure you will, so all I can say is good luck!

Anonystude

27th Mar 2011, 20:53

Beags, pray tell: which offers the greatest and most likely source of inaccuracy, the use of approximations and MDR whilst flying at 120KIAS and below, or the vague and unhelpful area forecasts of ML winds offered by the Met Office?

I know which method I'd rather use, and not just at 420KIAS. After all, what good is a wonderfully accurate delicately winded map with everything whizzwheeled into oblivion if the met forecast (for an area of 40nm radius) is rounded up to the nearest five knots anyway?

Incidentally, MDR worked perfectly well and enabled me to tour Northern Europe in a light aircraft without incident; similarly the techniques have passed muster with several civilian FIs and FEs, most of whom were impressed rather than shocked at the lack of whizz wheel buffoonery pre-flight.