Cumbria Helicopter crash discussion [Archive] - Page 2

ericferret

18th Oct 2012, 19:58

Maybe all PPL helicopter pilots should wear stetsons and spurs.

Most would wear white hats but some would wear black.

Then we would know where we are.

Reading this post you might think I am suggesting that all PPL pilots are actually cowboys, I couldn't possibly comment!!!

Safe flying to the good guys and may the bad guys bite the dust flying solo.

Sorry for the western analogy but I just watched "Purgatory" on DVD.

YeeHaa

toptobottom

18th Oct 2012, 20:13

ericferret

What a wonderfully mature, thoughtful and useful contribution. Many thanks - awesome :ok:

John R81

18th Oct 2012, 21:07

This has got "Naff All" to do with ppl / private / commercial and everything to do with the attitude of the pilot and the maintenance organisation. If you think otherwise then read through the AAIB reports.

The pilot has responsibility for the crash - nothing that was wrong with the helicopter contributed to the crash, according to the report.

The maintenance organising might have something to answer for - I understand that the C of A should not have been issued if then engine installed is unapproved.

Sometimes a cavalier attitude to the rules is an early sign of a problem pilot but that applies to CPL as much as PPL.

[email protected]

18th Oct 2012, 21:17

John that attitude applies to pilots across the spectrum regardless of nationality, licence or background.

SilsoeSid

18th Oct 2012, 21:32

The pilot completed a licence proficiency check with a freelance examiner, formerly a British military pilot, in July 2010. The examiner stated that he had conducted a number of proficiency checks with the pilot in recent years and considered him to be of above average flying ability, adding that his skill level was similar to that of a British military helicopter pilot of two or three years operational experience.

Can someone please confirm what his LPC (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1328) content would consist of?

I can't believe that it compares to a military 6 monthly/annual or standards check ride. In addition, every mil pilot has an IR rating and most of all, the biggest factor in it all, 4 little letters, OASC :ok:

212man

18th Oct 2012, 23:17

At the other end of the PPL and privately owned aircraft scale, we have this chap: Aviation (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/index.html)

Thorough, meticulous, risk averse and professional! Some interesting trip reports.

SilsoeSid

19th Oct 2012, 08:15

At the other end of the PPL and privately owned aircraft scale, we have this chap: Aviation

Thorough, meticulous, risk averse and professional! Some interesting trip reports.

And an interesting contact page
http://www.peter2000.co.uk/contact.html
I am not on any social networking sites

Have a search here on PPRuNe for.... Peterh337 (http://www.pprune.org/search.php?searchid=721764) :ok:
And his new site is European General Aviation (http://www.euroga.org)

There's no mention of an engineering licence, but in the PPL world, are you allowed to do the 50hr service without one?

Trip to Samothraki - September 2012 (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/samothraki/)
There is also a large toolbox with enough tools to do the 50-hr service plus potential emergency jobs like changing the vacuum pump. I carry a spare vacuum pump too, with the vacuum line filters which must be changed if the pump fails. On longer trips I also carry a complete set of spare servos for the notoriously unreliable KFC225 autopilot,
:ooh:

212man

19th Oct 2012, 09:24

Clearly, yes: Socata TB20 Trinidad (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/tb20-experience/index.html)

It's pretty obvious as you read his site that he has takes maintenance very seriously - and weather limits. He even bought new to avoid a dodgy (hidden) history!

Maybe he doesn't consider pprune to be a networking site - unlike FB or L*****in etc!

Hughes500

19th Oct 2012, 10:02

Sid

LPC at the time for vfr ( now different under EASA) would consist of basically the following.

notams, wx etc etc
Check A of the ac ( walkround)
Start up
hover taxy to Heli area
landing into wind then x wind and downwind
spot turns
sideways backwards
circuit
limited power take off and landing
steep turns 30 degree ( for pplh) 360 degrees
climbing descending onto specified headings
180 degree turn under the hood
sloping ground
autorotation
EOL
PFL
landings various profiles

Emergency procedures normally covering a minimum of 3
fire drills
smoke control and removal
engine failure
fuel dumping
tr failure
t/r loss
incapacitation of crew
transmission malfunctions

normal and abnormal procedures min of 3 from below
engine
air conditioning
pitot/static
fuel
anti ice
trim
electrical
auto pilot
sas systems
landing gear

Shut down and post shut down checks and paperwork

Now under EASA we have to ask 10 questions relating to perfomance and limitations

ShyTorque

19th Oct 2012, 10:09

Having done both military and civilian check-rides (and been a military examiner, too), I'd say both can be as equally demanding. Obviously, an LPC isn't going to involve low level navigation, but it may also include instrument competency for the IR renewal part.

SilsoeSid

19th Oct 2012, 10:53

It's pretty obvious as you read his site that he has takes maintenance very seriously -

Thanks 212, I guess he takes an engineer with him.
Socata TB20 Trinidad (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/tb20-experience/index.html)
50hr checks: £4/hr - based on pilot maintenance plus employing the service of an experienced freelance engineer (it's a half day 2-person job)

Does it make a difference being on an 'N' plate?

LAAS Foreign Registered Aircraft in the UK (http://www.laasdata.com/fra/fra-by-country.php?c=N)
GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=TTAC)

SilsoeSid

19th Oct 2012, 11:09

n113ac-flypast on Vimeo

"from Peterh337"

Check out the music !! :rolleyes:

Some more here (http://vimeo.com/user8026275/videos)

SilsoeSid

19th Oct 2012, 11:23

212man, At the other end of the PPL and privately owned aircraft scale, we have this chap: Aviation

Thorough, meticulous, risk averse and professional! Some interesting trip reports.

Totally agree, all of the above, however, you sure about the PPL part? ;)

212man

19th Oct 2012, 11:29

I think the UK PPL plus some greenshield stamps got him the FAA CPL:E:E

My point was more the private ownership thing and how he conducts himself. :D

misterbonkers

19th Oct 2012, 13:49

Hughes500;

I understand that the 10 Aural questions are only for type rating initial issue. However examiners have to ascertain the candidates knowledge of parameters anyhow.

Several items on the old LPC and new PC were/are not mandatory.

The frustrating thing is on an OPC a training captain can fail someone if their attitude is not right - on a PC you cannot and there is also the regulation 6 process if you do fail someone and there not happy about it.

VeeAny

19th Oct 2012, 15:12

The frustrating thing is on an OPC a training captain can fail someone if their attitude is not right - on a PC you cannot and there is also the regulation 6 process if you do fail someone and there not happy about it.

Too true, its been a gripe of mine for a while that as an examiner, if someone can hit the numbers and fly the aircraft to a reasonable standard but is a liability to themselves and others we cannot fail them, yes some effort can be put into asking for exercises which are more taxing to get right but at the end of the day the examiner does not set the standard. Bloggs quite rightly has right of recourse to the authority if the test is non standard. The examiner runs the risk of losing his or her authorisation if they fail people for things the check does not require to be looked at.

The emergencies as appropriate to type or however it is phrased is the best way in my opinion to be able to legitimately not sign off someone who is a danger, however if they get them right what can you do ?

There are always others who will conduct the test anyway, so if you get a reputation as an examiner who is difficult, the cowboys will go elsewhere.

Hughes500

19th Oct 2012, 18:36

Veeany

Here here, I failed a new ppl on his skills test as we got lost by 20 miles in the nav section.Tried to do an auto by closing throttle, application of full left pedal while holding the lever up in a 300. Made my eyes water !
Couldn't land in a restricted site the size of 2 rugby pitches.
Height holding +/- 800 ft and tried to land at Gloucester airport on the reciprocal runway.
Led to a huge argument on the debrief ! Discovered another examiner passed him 3 days later with no other continuation training !
Would dearly love to fail people as I know they dont have it but they can fly the check. I now refuse to test those people
Thanks for the other night !

powerlimited

19th Oct 2012, 19:06

I can't help but think that the whole choosing your own examiner thing is a little bit suspect, I would happily have any examiner come along to examine my students and make a point of using external examiners rather than saying to potential new students "I will be doing the majority of your training and my colleague will be doing your final flight test".

I see EASA have introduced the clause about having economical interest etc in examining, but like most things who will enforce this?!

Surely its not difficult to have a pool of local examiners and you approach the CAA to get assigned an examiner?

Not wishing to drift the thread...........

Hughes500

20th Oct 2012, 08:46

powerlimited

In an ideal world yes but and here is the big but. The CAA wanted regional examiners, in the case of the SW I had 4 people give up as examiners were not allowed to examine more than 3 consecutive times. These customers were all in deepest Cornwall nerest examiner other than myself an 8 hour return drive providing it wasnt summer time on the A30. Combine this with weather ac availability examiner availability they all went and got US licences.
Yes it can be difficult to be independent but one hs to keep in the back of ones mind ones responsibility to the examinees pax and family

powerlimited

20th Oct 2012, 09:14

Hughes500.

Yes I completely understand......and as with most things with the CAA there is a big but, unfortunately they spend too much time sat on it in that restaurant at Aviation House rather than getting on with getting out there and seeing whats going on under their noses.

SilsoeSid

20th Oct 2012, 10:50

Yes I completely understand......and as with most things with the CAA there is a big but, unfortunately they spend too much time sat on it in that restaurant at Aviation House rather than getting on with getting out there and seeing whats going on under their noses.

Who exactly are 'they'?

powerlimited

20th Oct 2012, 11:46

Sid....

"they" would be the various highly paid inspectors/surveyors that are employed by the CAA.

SilsoeSid

20th Oct 2012, 11:59

I wonder why you felt you had to add 'highly paid' in that reply :suspect:
Without that comment, you would have sounded as if you knew what they actually got up to, or not as your case may be, instead of just sounding bitter ;-)

powerlimited

20th Oct 2012, 14:34

Sid.

I don't do BS, I have spent a fair bit of time in the restaurant myself and seen the work ethic.

Well in my opinion they are highly paid, £65k+ is highly paid in my book, compared to the rest of the industry who have to rewrite manuals, explain to customers new regulations, pay the fees to the CAA etc.

I'm not bitter, I can always find another industry to make a living in, but I just feel the CAA has gone too corporate and is loosing a little credibility.

nigelh

22nd Oct 2012, 08:51

I have heard some understatements but that's the best one !!! And I have no reason to be bitter as they have left me alone for over 30 yrs to do my own thing :ok:

wallism

23rd Oct 2012, 19:47

I'm just wondering what they will say about me when I inevitably snuff myself out in my helicopter, on my motorbike, in my car or by tripping over a tree branch. Did he have the correct license, was it issued by the appropriate authority, did he maintain his motorbike to the accepted standards or perhaps, on that occasion he just ****** up?

heli-cal

24th Oct 2012, 01:00