Enough is enough

[ppraticallybroke]

Dear all,

I am a very long time reader, first time poster. Also I have had a go with the search button for "IR revalidation" but it turned up nothing, so forgive me if this has been answered before. Just post me a link, please.

I'm going to make my post in two parts here. The first is why I am asking, the second is what I am asking.

So in 2006 I had my own home, a great job and nice girlfriend. But I cashed in all my chips and began integrated flight training in Jan 2007. Well you guys know what happened at the back end of that year. Now I am not here to moan. I may now be unemployed, 33, living with my mum, totally broke, single and unable to get work of any sort ... even McDonalds don't want pilots, but I am one of the lucky ones.

One of my friends never found pilot employment and his wife just left him because he keeps chasing his dream, ploughing any money he has into it. He had 2 young kids with her. I know a young woman who trained and having not found a job in 3 years and heavily indebted, is severely depressed. But rather than seek help because she is afraid taking anti-depressants will invalidate her medical (which in all honesty doesn't get used anyway) she sits around cutting herself and removing her hair strand by strand in case an airline might call.

But as I say I am lucky. I have my health, my sanity and whilst I don't have two pennies to rub together, I have no debt.

I thought I'd mention that to deter the ever optimistic noobs who will tell me to hang in there and keep my chin up, because I just want an honest answer.

I have an fATPL + 500 hrs, but am never going to afford a type rating. I'm also quite sure there will be no opening of flood gates, desperate airlines grasping for anyone that can spell pilot or that I will win the lottery. I can't afford the pound each week. So waffle over ... my question

My license is up for renewal again. Now having been sold a dream that 4 years on is still only that, I kind of resent paying an annual tax to a flight school to renew my license. I am forever told of the horror letting it lapse.
"If you don't get a renewal, you have to revalidate ... with a CAA guy!" shock horror.

I have to get back in the aircraft again this time around anyhow and I don't care who sits next to me. What I am thinking is I will just snowball flying and get on with my life. If I carry on waiting about, I won't have one. I'm sick of applying for jobs that take hours to fill in online apps and never hearing a reply. I'm tired of searching through thousands of jobs that always want more experience than I have. I have kissed enough arses and gotten nothing in return. I just want to fly in my spare time for fun and have a life now.

However if a miracle should happen and 16000 pilots are killed in a freak accident at a pilot's conference, I would like to be able to go get my license revalidated. Long story short, what is the difference between renewal and revalidation in terms of effort and cost? I couldn't give two hoots that "An airline might not view that very well on your CV", that bridge when it comes.
I'd rather someone who knows the answer gives it than idle speculation (here's hoping), and that its not answered by either a troll or an air school stooge pretending to be an ex student. I would ask my old school but they would undoubtedly try to terrify me into doing it.

Thanks to anyone who helps, any link to back up your advice would be awesome. I just can't find a definitive answer :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'll sticky this for a while.

WWW

[Dan_Brown]

Good post

"If you don't get a renewal, you have to revalidate ... with a CAA guy!" shock horror."

Are you sure about that? I know someone who took three years out to regain his sanity away from aviation. Everything had expired. He renewed his license, sat and passed a medical and did another type rating. No CAA guy in attendance in the sim.

[BongleBear]

hang on in there and keep your chin up.

alternatively, if you have no debt, why not get a loan, pay for a type rating and actually get a job?

there will now follow posts from the 'don't pay for TR' brigade, but these are the times we are in, like it or not.

good luck

[Spunky Monkey]

Bungle Bear - Maybe he doesn't want any debt, by taking a punt on a TR.
After all that is one expensive gamble, however if you are gambling with your parents money, then crack on...

I have decided to take some time out from flying full time for a year or two. To concentrate on having a life and paying some debt, spending some time with my doris and my family.
You will quickly realise that the cruise can be immensely boring, endless early starts and late finishes, weeks away from home, rubbish pay and bullying managers will eventually take their toll.

One piece of advice if I may. Take the stress out of job hunting. Take a job that will interest you as a stop gap, earn some cash, you will be amazed how a bit of coin in your pocket will make life feel better.
Set an evening aside once a week to send out those CVs and chasing letters.
Then set a couple of goals for the next two years.
Say... save up for the IR renewal, then a longer term goal of say the FIs course. You will be amazed how much your flying will improve and you may realise that flying is more than just A-B and back 2 times a day.

A clear mental state is one of the most important keys to success.

Regarding your female friend who is suffering. She should see her local GP for assistance. There is some excellent counselling that is free, that will really help.

Good luck

[Sagey]

Seems to be slight confusion on renewing and revalidating. Revalidation is annual and can be done in a FNPTII every other year, ie one year FNPTII the next in an aircraft.

Renewal before 5 years has lapsed needs to be done in the aircraft with a CAA approved examiners (same really as revalidation just it is in aircraft) Renewal after 5 years has to be done with a CAA Staff examiner.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_lts_LASORS2010_Section%20E.pdf

For a job you will need a valid IR, quite usually at the time of application. For the first type rating you need a valid IR on the day that you start the course. You don't after you have the first one.

I would sit down with a piece of paper and try to come up with a plan. If you want a break then go for it, park everything and return. A few months away from the should I should I not revalidate, filling in countless numbers of application forms and feeling miserable might pass and you might come back with a new enthusiasm or decide to walk away. Main priority is feeling happier.

[Snoop]

Mate If you have no debt, then you should be able to afford to go and work for peanuts pushing A/C in and out of hangers at your local flying club, work their bar, find work in an ops department ect. That is if you can't find a job flying a 172 for an aerial photography firm or tow gliders.... you get the idea.

Believe me, the money might be rubbish but the in involvement aviation scene and a lot of the people you meet, will hopefully make this period one of the most rewarding and interesting of your aviation career as well as getting your foot on the first rung of the ladder.

On a side note please can you get your friend to seek some help. As has already been said, there are some good people out there to talk to.

[jackcarls0n]

:ok:Sour and hard facts in your post. I guess pilots all around are facing the same be it in Europe, Asia, America or anywhere else untill you have a pot of Gold. But it is true. For a year I didn't get any jobs either. They used to reply back with saying your over-qualified for the job or "Your a pilot, get a flying job, not a desk job".


We have a CAA which is a mix of FAA and JAR and buncha other authorities around the world.

A renewal of the license happens when one is flying and keeping his skills current by doing atleast the minimum 3 T/O and landings every 90 days plus, a PPC, IPC, Route Check, Ground Refreshers. This allows you to get a renewal at the end of the year.

A revalidation occurs when one gets a license issued and doesn't fly for more then 2 years (could be 5 not sure). This includes some flight training and re-examination of your CPL or ATPL exams.

[Poeli]

Every wannabe should read this!
Good luck with whatever you do!

[RVF750]

Reminds me of myself many years ago.

You need currency to show any prospective employer you can fly. It's that simple.

The only way to do it is to find som e way of not paying for your hours...that means towing, instructing or other GA pondlife jobs.

I got my FATPL in 1991...couldn't have been a worse time and I like you never got a bite or reply to most of my CV and applications.

I renewed for the next four years, several hundred pounds to fly a Senneca III for an hour and a half, until I managed to save up enough for an FI rating. This got me 800hrs in a year and the interview I so desperately dreamed of.

By the way, I fixed fruit machines, cut trees down and got five stars at Mcdonalds on the way. Mcdonalds don't care a jot if you're a qualified pilot. They want regular reliable and normal looking humans. that's all.

[ppraticallybroke]

Thank you all for your replies. I think I have enough information regarding renewal.

Also thank you for the support, but I think its now time to reassess. I have been doing the 'pond life' jobs for some years. Its why I never managed to save up, and it has still not brought me one jot closer. I got 500 hours and it was good flying too, all over Europe albeit SEP, but this is insanity.

Most pilots think that there is something special about them, I was no different. That when the interviews come you have that x-factor they will be looking for, as you are better than everyone else, and they will spot it. Well I never even got an interview. I prided myself on what a good pilot I am, and a massive part of being a good pilot is making good decisions. Is forsaking all else, hell-bent on a career that may never come to anything a good decision?

My career is like a bad approach. The woman was yelling "whoop whoop, pull up, pull up" ages ago, but I ignored her and dropped the gear. I'm now past the inner marker and the runway still seems as far away as ever. There's a very slim chance I'll land it and be a hero, but the odds are against it. Should I just plough on, nose first into the asphalt because of pride, blind faith and reluctance to face the truth? Or do I have the strength of character to firewall the throttle and yell "going around" so I can try another approach? One that is safer and where no one will get hurt.

I always thought I would be that guy, who would make the tough call, and get the decision right. Well ... this is my chance ... because enough is enough. Going Around! ;)

[BoeingDreamer]

It is a depressing truth we face, I have been done that route several times in other careers in the past.
Having been self employed all my life since I was 20, I learned to live with this pressure early. It has hard not knowing what will happen tomorrow, you constantly see the bar get changed, for what you need to get in or not. If you haven't been used to pressures like this, it can really get to you. You are kind of lucky, but still I feel for you and all the others that are less fortunate.

We can all have regrets in our lives, I have a few, if I had followed my dream, instead of using my senses in 1991, today I might have been captain with a major airline like my friend who dared the step, and had the money to loose that time.
With this uncertainty in life we can not ever know what is the right step, right time, the right move to do, to make sure all goes good.
Personally I have one hope, one person, who has told me he will try to get me a job, it is 50 50, and the good thing I will know very soon. I will get a yes or no, I am prepared for the no, as this is the most likely outcome, still I will be very disappointed, even knowing the most likely outcome, but as long as there is life, we cling on to a positive outcome.
I might be one of the lucky ones in many ways, but I have many negative factors with me too. Debt free, good, a back up business, good, my age, very negative, no time to waste.

It seems like it is a game of russian roullette we are playing, companies coming toying and playing with our feelings, our emotions, our dreams.
Telling us to pay our TR, pay few hours for line training, maybe if we like you we will give you a job!
For them our money, our £30.000 is pocket money, for us it is one or more years of hard work.

I have heard of companies offering assessments, they will know how many pilots they will need to employ, so if they do plan to give 1 or 2 pilots a chance, they should not make 12 pilots go trough their TR and line training which they make the pilots pay themselves.

Would they be so squander this money on training extra pilots in the old days, when they would pay for the line training themselves?
Would they pay your training and just dispense you like trash! Expensive trash!

Having been self employed all my life, had people work for me, I would never treat my staff with such contempt and ignorance!

The other day I met a pilot, who had a great job on a private jet 737, we talked about getting into jobs etc., and got on to the topic of paying for line training and your own TR. And he told me he would not like to fly with a pilot who had done this, as it degraded every-bodies conditions, terms etc. Still talking to me he could understand, that due to my age I would want to find a way into the business.

But I don't want to have to go that route, but it easy for the experienced pilots in their jobs to tell us newbies what we should do, what I have noticed is that most pilots fully established, does not really know what it takes to get a job today.
There are a few that care, but most of them probably don't have time, they don't have interest of this anymore, which is natural.
There are even plenty of pilots that take advantage of newbies, with so called sim training, etc. Also many pilots are used to recruit us to these TR/line training programs, so my question for this why do these well paid pilots, make money on the naivety of new pilots, and then they complain of their degraded terms and conditions!

Should the profession take a better look at itself, and clean up from within. I have just finished my IR, and I am already fed up with it, I believe many are involved in backhanders to help each other, FTO;s , TR companies etc. It stinks, I am sorry, it is the truth as I can see it.

[flyboy_nz]

My career is like a bad approach. The woman was yelling "whoop whoop, pull up, pull up" ages ago, but I ignored her and dropped the gear. I'm now past the inner marker and the runway still seems as far away as ever. There's a very slim chance I'll land it and be a hero, but the odds are against it. Should I just plough on, nose first into the asphalt because of pride, blind faith and reluctance to face the truth? Or do I have the strength of character to firewall the throttle and yell "going around" so I can try another approach? One that is safer and where no one will get hurt.

It is better to have failed than have the regret that you never tried in the first place. I have a friend who wants to make it big in Hollywood, the guy has been struggling to get roles. He recently got a break in a Mcds tv advert. Will he make it? No one knows, but at least he's trying like you. So, hang in there. A few years down the line you will look back and wonder how you made it through.

[captainsuperstorm]

Son,keep in mind that aviation is filled with the biggest losers on earth.
it 's all about politic, stealing job, jealousy, envy, and egoism.
it s 100% me me me,...and **** you all!

I am disgusted by all of you!:yuk:

when you will be punching your FMS at FL300 all day long, on your 737, will you be more happy?. no, you will complain about the job on the 747 you want for or why you are not captain after 3 years.

"don't ask what aviation can do for you, ask what you can do for aviation".

[Piltdown Man]

How can anybody justify entering a market that is already flooded with qualified pilots? I think ppracticalybroke has "got real" the expensive way and is demonstrating continuing sanity by not getting into debt. Noobs (or should it be knobs) suggesting that "following your dream" is a rational course of action are deluded. Not until the thousands of currently unemployed are absorbed by expansion and retirement will it make sense to train as a pilot. So my advice would be to save for a bigger revalidation in a few years time; and what's so bad about being tested by the CAA.

The important thing is to avoid debt and try for a life outside aviation for a while. I'm sure it will pick up and your current position will mean that you'll be one of the first few thousand into work. But I can't tell you when. My own company will be employing 80 or so pilots (the names of the next 200 or so are already known) so we still have a log jam of 120. My crystal ball predicts four years as being the great rush... But I won't be betting my own money!

[doubleu-anker]

My view is if you don't have the license you wont get the job when things do move. Breaks can come quick when natural attrition, and no one being trained because of the glut. Hang on in the there! Things in all probability, will come right.

[flyboy_nz]

How can anybody justify entering a market that is already flooded with qualified pilots?

I know where you are coming from but why should someone give up on their lifelong dream of becoming a pilot just cos there's too many pilots?

[Capt.unregistered]

I don't wish to be over critical here- its easy to be. I have a friend in a very similar position. You just have to get flying!!! Work in your local flying club, wash planes, take in the atmosphere- meet people who are retired airline pilots, test pilots and have been there and done that! As the previous post says tow gliders, save alittle money, fund a FI rating. None of these things will allow you to sit in the RHS of an airliner, HOWEVER you will meet people, and one thing leads on to the next. You might just be in the right place at the right time when that Falcon co-pilot suddenly leaves or when the small turbo prop regional airline or air taxi company on the airfield needs a new co-pilot.

Instead to many people want to go straight from flying school to flying a B737 on 45K a year. A facet of modern society I believe.

I realise its easy to give advice my friend. Best of luck!

[119.35]

Capt Unreg - quote taken from the Op's 2nd post:

"I have been doing the 'pond life' jobs for some years. Its why I never managed to save up, and it has still not brought me one jot closer. I got 500 hours and it was good flying too, all over Europe albeit SEP, but this is insanity."

Your advice normally would be sound, but he has been flying!

[Capt.unregistered]

Granted but only for 500 hours though or even only for 250 hours if 500 hrs is his tt. Maybe ppraticallybroke should tell us exactly what "pond life" jobs he means. Yes life is a lottery sometimes- with employment, with relationships, with health and life in general.

[Poeli]

Because you can't live from dreams or dreams with debts that's why. I'm a wannabe and I realise this very well. I hear friends of me -who are doing their ATPL's- sayin:, I borrowed money from my parents and I'll 'only' (!) have to borrow 30.000€ from the banks+ my typerating. This is insane.
I'd rather keep flying as a hobby with a nice job, then to be depressed because I don't have a job as a pilot, have all my licences, spent very much money on it and maybe lost all I had on the way.
Was it painful to face it? Yes. It still is from time to time. But this is not a dreamworld where you can realise everything you want in life.

[WestWind1950]

a friend fo mine once worked as a flight attendent while waiting for the cockpit job. In the end it was good experience in the airline life, and fairly good pay, too.... and when the market reopened, she got that front seat. Is that something you might consider?

[HowlingMad Murdock]

Hi ya'll ppracticallybroke, excellent username!....I have a t-shirt which says 'I started out with nothing, and still have most of it left' :) Ultimately - only you can decide what is best for you - maybe look up Edward De Bono's Six Hats (parellel thinking tool) - this could help you explore your dilemma fully, looking at the issues from all angles enabling you to make an 'informed choice' Am sorry to hear about your friends' troubles, - the C.A.B./other agencies can offer advice/support for debt issues. I have experience of workin' in the field of Mental Health - and as others have posted - please advise your lady friend to seek urgent support/counselling.

Some advice I was given recently was -'Follow your bliss' .......I wish you all the best whatever you decide.......

[chromeo]

alternatively, if you have no debt, why not get a loan, pay for a type rating and actually get a job?

there will now follow posts from the 'don't pay for TR' brigade, but these are the times we are in, like it or not.

That is one way of looking at it, another is the reason people are paying to do type ratings is because some people are prepared to pay for type ratings, and so the vicious circle begins. If everyone sat on their hands and refused to pay for the type ratings, the likes of Liarair would have to re-think their recruitment strategies.

[volunteerpilot]

First there was CAA, then JAA, then EASA

Courses: CPL/IR/ME, then MCC, followed by JOC, now MPL, TRs, Line trainings, First Officer accelerated, Interview preps with experienced captains

What is next in this bottomless financial pit? Space shuttle type rating

Anyone knows where I can buy Boeing 747 captancy, I might as well aim for the top rather than pay £100k line experience to get £20k a year first job? :cool:

[zondaracer]

Anyone knows where I can buy Boeing 747 captancy, I might as well aim for the top rather than pay £100k line experience to get £20k a year first job?

Eagle Jet International, Inc. (http://www.eaglejet.net/HeavyJetPrograms.asp) Scroll to the bottom, 747 Captaincy for sale :ouch:

[volunteerpilot]

Unbelievable, makes me feel sick. Does anyone know who runs Eagle Int and how they share profit with airliness they use for line experience?

[doubleu-anker]

volunteerpilot

"..........Boeing 747 captancy, I might as well aim for the top rather than pay £100k line experience to get £20k a year first job?"

What on earth makes you think being a B747 Captain is "the top"? To me it's about life style. I know people who fly 10% of the flying a B747 Captain would do and on better pay than most of them.

Don't get carried away with size.

[captainsuperstorm]

Does anyone know who runs Eagle Int

an :mad: named stephane, frenchy...:yuk:

[yardmaster]

I think it was a joke doubleu-anker. Don't take too literally ;)

[Desk-pilot]

To be sure your situation is a sad one but not uncommon I'm afraid. My mid life career change to ATPL didn't work out at first either but I went back to my old IT career as a contractor, earned fab money for 18 months, did a bit of private flying and luckily got a call from Flybe.

Been flying 4 years now for them and am happy I made the career change even if my bank manager isn't. Truth is though that even when you make it to the right seat of an airliner with a major airline after a while you start to want to work less days for more pay on heavier metal - so I'm still frustrated and so are all the co-pilots I know. Truth is that we work bloody hard to take home £2000 a month, it's not enough for a good lifestyle and the time off stinks (a weekend is one usable night here). I suspect if I managed to get into one of the quality outfits - charter/BA/Virgin I might finally sit back and think 'I made it' because it doesn't feel like it from where I'm currently sitting.

What I'm trying to say is that this job may not live up to your expectations anyway if you end up working for a LCC (except maybe Easyjet) because there are just too many people earning more money easier in other ways.

My advice for what it's worth would be to get yourself the best paid job you can in the meantime. Take 6 months off from worrying about flying, enjoy life, go for a beer, take a holiday and then reassess. Sounds like letting the rating lapse a few months is no biggie. I actually took over 12 months out from applying to airlines and had a bloody good time during my IT contracting 18 months and not thinking about it really helped me get it in perspective because the whole thing had made me completely miserable. At the end of the day your hobbies, family, girlfriend, kids are what's important not bloody flying a piece of metal around the sky 4 times a day and missing your kids birthday while you do it!

It really isn't the be and end all. In fact it's no more enjoyable than doing lots of other things like being a tree surgeon, selling fancy cars, working as a photographer, being cabin crew, working in the military. There are loads of interesting things to do with your life that don't involve getting up at 4am and feeling knackered most of the time!!

Anyway, hope this helps and I wish you the best of luck. Incidentally the tree surgeon one is interesting - I talk to one of those regularly and he loves it - fresh air, more work than he can handle, countryside, work when he wants, loves wood, a real man's job, using his expertise and more money than I make doing this... Makes you think doesn't it?

[stuckgear]

Incidentally the tree surgeon one is interesting - I talk to one of those regularly and he loves it - fresh air, more work than he can handle, countryside, work when he wants, loves wood, a real man's job, using his expertise and more money than I make doing this... Makes you think doesn't it?


funny you mention that, my next door neighbour's tree surgeon used to be a pilot, he gave it up to start the tree work and enjoys it more (and makes more) than he did flying apparently.

[Credit Crunched]

I've been keeping an eye on the industry while I worked my way through Uni. Fully intended to go through with it when I graduated this May with an Aeronautical Engineering degree. My job prospects are alright - no solid leads but placement experience and a couple of interviews coming up - including one for CTC which I intend to turn down.

Its been very difficult to decide not to follow the dream of flying, but when I look at the possibility of spending £100k (probably having to beg my parents to remortgage the house) with an additional £30k on type rating and floundering in the holding pool for a year, I realise that it's just not a sane thing to do.

I may leave uni without a job and I may end up stuck in an office, but if I'm honest with myself, CTC is not looking like the dream that I imagine it to be.

Face the facts and weigh up your options. If you can justify it to yourself, then go for it.

[119.35]

CC - sounds like you have a very wise head on your shoulders.

You don't have to give up on your dream. Get a decent job, live life a bit and do your flight training modular.

Takes a lot of the pressure away from the all or nothing integrated scenario and you get to live a little and enjoy your flying in the meantime.

You have time on your side.

[flyingguy1984]

My attitude towards flying has changed completely - when I left integrated I thought I have to be flying the RHS of a jet - financially the money would help - but honestly now I have a stable 9-5 job, I fly at weekends, and love being around the apron meeting new people. I feel like I cheated a bit by doing an integrated course, and now I'm doing what I should have done which is building up my experience the hard way, something I believe is far more rewarding. I think there is so much to learn in aviation that we don't learn during an integrated course - and whilst I might be able to fly an ILS or an NDB approach - there is a lot to learn from people who've flown every weekend for the past 30 years. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that if something came up, I'd reject it in favour of GA, I'm just not desperately looking for a hole to throw 30k down.

[Northern Highflyer]

I know exactly how you feel, been there got the t shirt. I got my licence hot off the press in 2005 and am still looking. My last revalidation was in 2007 (expired 2008). The renewal is 5 years from expiry of the last IR renewal so that gives me another 2 years grace if I need it. I am looking to renew this year though.

Since qualifying I did all the usual CV bashing and butt licking but to no avail. I got one interview and sim ride with a good company but the rejection letter almost beat me back home. Due to lack of funds and seemingly going nowhere I walked away for a couple of years, but it was always there in the back of my mind, and I was always on PPRuNe or pilot jobs sites keeping an eye on things. The FI route never appealed, not that there was any work going anyway. Just over 2 years after I qualified the recession hit and companies were going bust. Almost everyone I knew from my training days(even those with FI tickets) were coughing up serious money to go to FR. I like to think I am a flexible person, and I would be willing to come to some arrangement over funding any TR with the right company, but I won't do this with FR under the current conditions they use. I won't spend £30k just to be dicked about. If FR just made a few changes to how they operate I would seriously consider them, but they won't. I was recommended to another company but they required a JOC so that was the end of that. Despite my referee having been with the company for many years, his letter was effectively rejected. I have my theories as to why, and they involve deals done elsewhere with certain flying schools.

I don't see myself as a jet god either. I would be happy in a King Air for the rest of my career. I am also not the job hopping type, so I am happy to commit many years to the right company. Investment is a 2 way street.

Like everyone else on here, I love flying with a passion, any flying, but I won't sell my soul and ruin my life just to get in the air. I will see how things go over the next year or two, and will give it my all again if things start to show a large improvement. After that, I will be classed as too old and not fit for training despite my excellent training record.

Good luck to all in the same position.

[wangus]

My fellow dodo, I sympayhize and can relate 100%. I would try and enjoy other aspects of life and accept that the worls is currently in the s***e and will be for the forseeable future. My last IR revalidation/renewal in FNPT2 was 26 months ago. Has been of no help. Don't put it to rest permanently, but accept a timeout. Remember the 5 years only. I found it very hard to swallow my pride and accept the situation, but think I have now come to terms as best I can. Work in a bank, home everynight by 6pm, every weekend off, bank holidays etc... Money is poor, but the lifestyle beats my 8 years as a despatcher at LGW. Some days I wonder how hard it would be to go back to airline hours????? (A friend of mine who now flies for DHL based in Germany, who has had to leave wife and newborn in West Sussex makes me wonder why i even want to fly....) I know it is of no real help, but remember it is not you personally. Supply vs Demand. We have been sold a dream, aviations version of the timeshare. Life is short, so get some pleasure out of it. I am going to start flying a PA28 again this summer for FUN. Keep your chin up, and remember (unfortunately) you are not alone.


Hopefully this makes you smile.







YouTube - So you want to be an airline pilot

[captainsuperstorm]

good post.

life and family are more important than the flying bug.

I am going to buy a high tech computer and install a simulator.

who want pay me to fly my sim?:E

[Mikehotel152]

@practicallybroke - I'm very sorry to hear your sad cautionary tale. You're not alone mate. There are many, many people in your position. I know it's no consolation. I shall send you a PM with my further thoughts. As for the actual question you posed, I think others have answered it with more insight than I can offer you.

@WWW - Well done for making this a sticky thread. It should be read by all people considering entering the aviation industry.

[glojo]

So in 2006 I had my own home, a great job and nice girlfriend. But I cashed in all my chips and began integrated flight training in Jan 2007. Well you guys know what happened at the back end of that year. Now I am not here to moan. I may now be unemployed, 33, living with my mum, totally broke, single and unable to get work of any sort ... even McDonalds don't want pilots, but I am one of the lucky ones.

I am new to this forum and reading a number of these threads has been an eye opening experience.


I wonder how many of us as young children had dreams of being a pilot? For the lucky few these dreams actually become a reality, but for a significant number we are left looking at our model aircraft dangling from the ceiling and having to make other decisions about our futures.


My thoughts regarding your post is first and foremost ‘Health!’ Sit down for a minute and take a deep breath. What is this burning ambition doing to you health wise? From your posts it appears that your desire to become a professional pilot is ruining your life and I have to ask, “Is it worth this?”

It would be great if you could fulfil this ambition but try to be realistic and think about you as a person and what is happening to you.



Have you really thought about what else you might want to try? What is it that might take the place of flying?



Have you perhaps considered applying to any of the cruise lines? This is an industry that is recruiting, I have no idea about their terms, conditions or pay, but you will see the world, and possibly be able to put money in the bank and maybe keep up the flying, but in the meantime you will be exploring the World and maybe even enjoying yourself?



This is just one option that you might want to dismiss but please, please think about other careers as life is way too short and we all only get one bite at it. You are at present letting life go by and in the meantime you are making yourself ill

Good luck with whatever decision you make

[JB007]

Excellent posting Desk Pilot, totally agree and I would add, that things aren't that rosy in the 'Quality Career' airlines you mention - attitudes from those in higher office/those promoted to places where ambition outweighs ability are all the same, just different coloured aircraft!

I'm not going to say 'keep your chin up' because I think it's all boll*cks really!
I'd go with the holiday/beer/time out option...

Cheers
JB

[FANS]

Excellent advice on taking time out, and seeing flying in the context of what it is. A job.

I can not get over that 10 years ago BA were still doing a cadet programme to where we are today.

[straightin]

Sorry to hear about your situation. You have my sympathy and understanding. Well as a lot of other posters have already suggested, I would suggest you to take some time off to allow yourself to see all this from a different point of view. A long time ago I found myself in the same situation. Money was over and I had no interview. I have given up flying for more than 15 years. Got an aerospace engineering degree and a desk job. I felt happy and satisfied for many years but...well that was not the end of the story. Three years ago I got my airline pilot job. Less money and unsocial hours, but big fun, with the extra benefit of a very solid and safe backup job if for whichever reason in the future I will be grounded (medical problem or an airline bankruptcy, etc). No debts, the lady is happy and myself too. I am much more relaxed than most of my colleagues in the cockpit who surely have more hours and flight experience than me, but with their licence as the sole and unique earning source. To cut the long story short, this is my suggestion. If you temporarily give up flying and revert to a "normal" job qualification, in the future this will turn to be your strongest point in the unreliable airline job market. Nobody knows what might happen in the while, never say never!

[Wilton Shagpile]

I left my career back in 2003 join the airlines and was one of the few that were lucky enough to finish just at the right time. On the whole I enjoy it but it's definately right that there are lots of other good and interesting careers out there that offer a better lifestyle, more money and much, much higher levels of security.

I guess aviation is like climbing a mountain. You know it's there, you see it all the time and you're desperate to climb it. Once you do it's now a case of "it was nice up there and I'm glad I've done it but I've no longer got the urge to do it again." And therein lies the problem...you can't really be objective about the career until you've been there.

Personally I like the comradeship, I like working on my own with a small crew and not battling over meaningless issues with an army of mediocre back-stabbing corporate colleagues. I like being left alone to do my job and I LOVE the fact that once I'm off duty after my week, I can pack away my uniform and flight bag and not think about work for a few days. To be honest I also kind of like the status (sad I know but it is always a job that people respond positively to) and I'll never grow tired of looking out the window on a nice day.

However, the long days, pressurisation cycles, lack of breaks, dry air, noisy flightdeck, insidious pressure, delays, lack of support from service providers etc. etc. does take its toll. Not always, but it can make the job frustrating. Still, grass greener etc.

If you're waiting for a job...be patient. If it's meant for you it'll come to you. Try and keep current above all. My company has hired new people and I'm pretty sure all of them were in current flying practice when they were interviewed. Tough I know, but try. Good luck.

[ADB25]

Interesting post!

Always nice to hear the views of Pilots from all levels and experience.:ok:

[Nimer767]

Wilton Shagpile (http://www.pprune.org/members/229520-wilton-shagpile) Well said

[captainsuperstorm]

WS,

ok, and where are the jobs? with you experience, can you not help them instead?.
who cares about your nice stories?if you don't like dry air, really that's not their problem.

so cut the crap, and tell them where to get a job!

[window-seat]

I can relate to your position as I had a similar experience a few years back having started my course in October 01 (3 weeks after 9/11). The market went belly up and by the time I got my FATPL there were hundreds of laid off, experienced pilots in the UK.

I had to earn cash to put a roof over my head and was fortunate enough to get an office job. But I knew I had to keep flying one way or another.
I completed an FI course doing just one day per week and due to the UK weather etc it took about 12 months to complete. This kept my flying current however whilst adding to my flying qualifications.
Having made alot of contacts over that 12 months led to a part-time instructor's job (weekends only) and I continued with my office job Mon-Fri and instructing at the weekend, basically having a double life! Several months later (and with around 1000 hrs) I got lucky with an airline, as did most of the instructors over time.

I know the industry is in a bad place right now, in-fact the company I work for laid off around 100 experienced F/O's last year :ouch:

The good news is that most went on to find alternative flying jobs, even if they had to move several thousand miles away to do so. So, there are jobs out there, and as long as there is movement, there will be opportunities.

I guess what I'm saying is get on with your life, but if you are determined to fly for a living, you must keep a foot in the aviation door. It's usually the people you meet along the way which lead to the opportunities, and the only way you will meet these people is by surrounding yourself with them.

Flying of some form has to be the best way, and if you’re going to pay for general PPL flying, you may as well pay the extra few quid and do an FI rating whilst you’re at it. Aviation is a small world and you will meet many useful people if you can stay involved.

Alternatively, a job as cabin crew, airline staff, airport staff etc. would give you an inside hand and an ear to the ground and introduce you to lots of handy people.

On the other hand, I know guys who tried to find a flying job for a few years and then moved on. They are now happy in other careers and would probably not wish to go back and change their decision.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[cooky]

I've seen a few cycles and when the jobs aren't there, no one ever thinks they are ever going to find work.

Then BA (and the likes) recruit, then everyone gets to move up the ladder, creating a vacuum at the bottom.

Yes, its expensive, draining and generally everyone will tell you I told you so- I told you couldn't do it.

But you can, just stick with the plan and don't give up...

[mauntown08]

First of all as many above have said before I sympathise with your situation, however surely you must have known that this was a possibility when you started your training?

I am not having a go, but with any research done prior to starting your training, the possibility of not getting employed becomes glaringly obvious. I know that everyone thinks "I am different" and "I will go that extra mile and get employed" but really? I just wish that wannabes would heed the warning signs.

Don't get me wrong I did exactly the same thing, kept telling myself that I would be different. I spent a year working up to 90 hours a week in 3 different non aviation jobs, after getting my little blue book, in order to afford to head to financially free myself to head to Africa, found a job and spent over 2 years bush flying. I have since moved on and 4 years after completing my licence I am still in GA, but I'm working on my 3rd continent, have over 2000 hours, earning more than most of those newbies flying in the right hand seat of a shiny jet.

Am I happy? Yes.
Do I want to get into something bigger? Yes but at the moment I am just happy to have a job.
I never understood the rush to get into the right hand seat of a jet. I have learnt a lot in the last 3 years, I have experienced things most people never do, and I am a much better pilot for it.

With your financial situation I would suggest thinking outside the box. Spend some time in GA, maybe even see the world...

[dannyboy11]

This is my first post on this forum. I have read this thread with great interest as I have recently started my PPL with the idea of obtaining the fATPL at some point in the future. I am lucky in one respect, that I have a full time job with ok ish pay, which is helping fund my training.
The working conditions and employers of some airlines sound very familiar with my current employers, i.e. poor! (I have just came to the end of a 2 year pay freeze and as a reward they have us another 2 year pay freeze).
I'm not looking at a possible career as a pilot with the grass is greener on the other side idea, I would be happy where the grass is a little less brown.
I am aware that there are no guarentees of any flying job, but if you don't try it will never happen.
For the origonal poster, take some time out and have a good long think of what you want in life.

[captainsuperstorm]

6 months looking since my last job, now they say my license is not valid (expired over 3 months).

what do I do now renew my valid license just to get a freak the opportunity to look at my CV and in another 3 months, will tell me the same again?:ugh:

this is not a serious business, be careful wit this profession.

most of my friends, now married with kids, do you think they fly a nice Boeing for a big airline for a living, no! they all had to give up.

seriously, do something else.Buy a condo instead.

[ReadyForDeparture]

Hi all.

I've been watching these forums for a couple of years now but I have to say that this is one of the most down to earth threads I have come across. I haven't posted before but I feel the need to add my own story to the mix.

Back in 2008 I had a stable well paid job, a mortgage, girlfriend and lots of money in the bank - in short I had a 'normal' comfortable life. I'd been a keen glider pilot for 5 years and having heard about integrated ATPL training I suddenly had the insane urge to pursue a career as an airline pilot. The thought of flying a shiny 737 for a living and earning £30k+ seemed like an ideal way to a secure future...anyway, did the research, talked to FTOs, believed the "you can expect your first job as a FO within 3 months of graduating" sales pitch and in Jan 2009 handed over my life savings and started training. And yes, this was as the ecconomy was taking a nose dive, however the FTO gave the old "you'll graduate just as things start to improve" routine "this is the best time to train" and I foolishly believed it.

So, after graduating in August '10 and obtaining my little blue book where am I now? Well, I'm 32 and I've spent a year applying to airlines not to even get an interview. I have no money and I can't get a job of any kind.I can't even claim job seekers due to lack of NI credits earned during my ATPL training! I have a truck licence and 8 years experience but I can't even get a job driving a truck let alone flying a plane. I still have a mortgage to pay and my wife now has to earn the income as my clever idea of a good career and prosperous future hasn't materialised. My moral is at an all time low. The only plus is that I don't have any debt.

It's fairly obvious that there is a huge pool of unemployed wannabies all climbing over each other for a job. It's also clear that the airline industry has taken a dive (along with most others at the moment) and is not in a position to recruit. The airlines have no problem sourcing pilots and know that they are doing US the favour by giving out the odd job here and there. They are being as fussy as they like in choosing new recruits and cashing in on their desperation for that first job "Yes we'll give you a job if you pay us £30k for a TR, buy a uniform, work 24 hours a day and accept little to no pay for the first few years...". Yes people are getting jobs but people are also winning the lottery most weekends...In my opinion it's just not worth the stress and hassle at this time to continue obbsessing about getting that first flying job during a time when the odds are against us in a big way.

Despite the ever-optimists I don't believe that a miraculous shortage of pilots is going to happen within the next few years. You only have to look at the job markets in general to see how dire everything is.

My MEP and IR ratings are expiring imminently and I can't afford to renew them. I have decided not to bother and instead I hope to join my local flying club (when I have some funds) so I can fly maybe a hour a month and mingle with people from the aviation community. I'm putting the airline dream on the shelf for the time being and contemplating plan B - maybe I'll finish my degree and retrain for a job with more reliable chances so that if plan A (flying) doesn't happen at least life can go on. If it looks like opportunities are opening up again I'll renew my ratings and start applying again. However I'll have to draw the line at some point. I don't have all the time and money in the world and there will come a point when it will no longer be viable to pursue this dream. I'll give it 5 years tops after which I shall call it a day and continue with plan B. You can't put life on hold indefinately on the off-chance that a flying job will come along.

I've listened to all the "if you don't try you'll never get a job" and the "chin up it'll happen in time" b--lox but we have to face reality. Yes there might be ways to keep your foot in the door by starting at the bottom somewhere doing pond-life jobs, but I'm 32 and trying to settle down, I can't just sod off to Africa or to some other obscure country. I can't afford to spend years shoving baggage around Stanstead for minimum wage. I don't have the time or money to do an FI rating and nor can I afford to live on FI wages (assuming I could even get a job doing that) much that I'd love to. I also can't afford to pay £30k for a type rating and be stationed in random places around Europe at a moment's notice by some cheap airline who forgets that people have lives. Maybe if was was younger and single and had no other life ambitions other then flying I might go down the above mentioned routes, but the lengths we have to go to get into this industry can have a serious effect on our home lives and sanity.

The thing is, pursuing a career in avaition is not just another career move, it's a life changing journey. Whatever life you had before you started will never be the same again. As I've also come to realise, even if I could get a job as a FO somewhere, the lower salaries and antisocial working conditions in airlines at the moment won't do much for quality of life. I've worked in road haulage for 8 years and the working condidtions are identical to those pilots face so I know exactly how it affects homelife - working nights and weekends, bank holidays, Christmas etc never being able to promise you'll be at someones birthday or event. Having to change plans last minute because you didn't get home on time due to delays. It's very easy to end up a lonly miserable person...unless you make your job and collegues your new family...because they'll be all you have..

It's all very well if you're 20yrs old, have no life or responsibilites, have access to lots of money and have all the time in the world. Go for it, you have nothing to loose. But if you're late 20s or early 30s and you want a 'normal' life then this is definately not the time for thinking about becomming an airline pilot. Ultimatley it all depends on how flexible your livestyle is as to how you can go about getting into this malarky. If, like me, you don't have infinate flexiblity to take any small opportunity that comes up that MAY increase your odds of a future airline job then serious consideration is required as to whether it is worth it in the first place. Personally I wish I'd used my £60k for better uses such as investment or property etc

Anyway, I applogise for rambling on but I hope it has given people some points to think about. I think more people should share their real-life stories whether they're woe or success so that we can all learn from each other.

All the best to you all.

[NukeHunt]

RFD,

Nice first post. I'm in a very similar boat, mid 30's mortgage etc. Started my PPL in 2005 when things were looking good, finished training in 2008, modular part time. Finished just after the downturn started, but was too far into it to give up.

2.5 years, and 2 renewals down the line and not even a sniff. A few PFO emails but that's it. I also come with over 10 years aviation experience working on the ground in Ops/Dispatch and a few contacts, but even this hasn't helped push my CV up and over the 20+y/o wannabe's with no experience who still do seem to be getting the odd job here and there. Part of me is now starting to think that the airlines are actually ageist in some way.

I just don't understand the rush for the 20y/o's to want to jump into a jet and push buttons and gaze out of the window for the rest of their careers, when they are young and free enough to go do some interesting and exciting flying first. I'd love to go off to Susi Air in Indonesia or to Maun in Botswana to so some bush flying but for US$200 per month I simply cannot afford to do it with bills to pay back here.

As I changed my career direction to be focused on flying rather than on the ground, I've stepped aside in my current role and allowed those who's career is based solely on the ground to move up and get promoted over me as I was hoping to have left my current job by now. However I'm now starting to think this might have been a bad move and maybe I should have just gone for the promotions anyway just in case I never get a flying job. Maybe I should stop thinking of others first and stuff them as nobody is moving aside for me to get a flying job and actually go for a promotion next time it comes up but that isn't me. I've never been that selfish, and I've actually used my own experience to help others get ahead, just wish Karma would come my way some time soon and help me out for a change !!.

[MightyDucks]

Readyfordeparture,

I find it hard to sympathize with your situation when you first of all say that you that you have been on this website for a number of years. Surly you must of been aware of the current situation in the industry and yet you decided to go ahead with your training anyway. Plus you complain about the lifestyle of a pilot even though you had first hand experience of that life working as a lorry driver.

anyway best of luck in the future.

[ReadyForDeparture]

NukeHunt


Part of me is now starting to think that the airlines are actually ageist in some way


I quite agree. Shortly after obtaining my licence I applied to a certain cheap airline. Another guy from my course also did. We both had the same flying experience, graduated at the same time and applied for the job at the same time etc the only difference being that he was 22 and I was 31. Well..he got an interview..I didn't. I do get the feeling that the airlines favour the young, 'shapeable' recruits that have no life ties. During my airline preparation course I was actually told that I should not disclose my age or marital status etc at an interview as it instantly implies a 'lack of flexibility'. We need to appear young and free, able to jump at a moment's notice.


I'm now starting to think this might have been a bad move


I think a lot of us in hindsight feel this sentiment. But we made our decisions at the time based on the information available to us. I had many reasons for wanting to train even in the knowledge that it may not work out. I do still hold hope that things will pick up, but we all just need something else to do whilst we're waiting.

MightyDucks

Surly you must of been aware of the current situation in the industry and yet you decided to go ahead with your training anyway.

That's an odd comment to make really as you're saying I should have been aware of the current situation. At the time things were not as bad as they are now. Yes the situation was on the way down but we'd just come out of a period when airline recruitment was going well. As I mentioned in my first post, we were led to believe that we would train during the downturn and then graduate in time for the upturn. Even the consensus on these forums agreed with this theory. I knew it was a gamble but I rolled my dice anyway. I think the fact that there are so many of us that have landed in this situation and that people are still training regardless implies that there was, and still is, a lack of reliable guidance available for people considering a flying career.

Plus you complain about the lifestyle of a pilot even though you had first hand experience of that life working as a lorry driver

Perhaps my first post didn't come across as I intended it to. I didn't write the post to complain about my decisions or the working conditions of flying. I wrote it as an example to others who have yet to start training and also as reasurance to others like me that we are not alone.

It's true that I don't favour the working conditions that I have had to live with previously. However, whereas I used to work 70 hours a week and get 21 days holiday a year for just under £30k a year, pilots (used to) work less hours, get more anual leave and earn more than £30k a year. Some airlines have better rotas - 5 on 4 off for example which would be an improvement. Ok so this may not be the case anymore but the point is I wasn't complaining about it myself, but trying to point out to people reading these threads that pursuing a career in aviation is not as straight forward as they're led to believe.

Had there been more personal accounts, such as the ones in this thread, when I was considering training I might have taken heed of the warnings and thought twice. This is why I think every wannabie should read this thread and the likes of us that have been there and got the licence should post our experiences - good or bad. Perhaps in a year or so I might be able to write a post that shows how I got that first flying job after a long and arduous bad period when all seemed lost...

[Bn02fly]

I'm 21 female and if I could earn the money flying aeros and being an instructor I would more than happily do so... But the fact is I'll jump at a jet job for the money. Because I'd like to fly aeros on a weekly basis and you need a damn good job to pay for it... You'll be glad to know as a wannabe. I'm not jumping into any schemes yet I've decided to bide my time and wait for better prospects where I don't have to be integrated and paying 100k which is secured on my parents house. I'd rather not get my self into situations above or worse bankruptcy and loss of house.

Right now I'm cc, and I don't particularly like the idea of being sat next to a grump sweaty old man (stereotype - most aren't but I've worked plenty of times with guys just like this) who I have nothing in common with and doesn't have the time of day to look up from his paper to chat to me in a whole 14 hour duty... I dont want to sit on my arse and read a newspaper 12 hours a day for the next 40 years of my life even if I do get paid 40k + a year...

I want to fly! But reality is if I want to fly aeros or be an instructor I have to fly a jet at some point... The RAF is sadly no longer an option.

So I'm deciding my own future... And not letting the airlines dictate it for me... If a job comes along earning me the same, screw the suffocating airline job. I'm gonna love flying aeros every weekend instead.

Hope you guys ahead are happy your helping someone like me understand where I want to be... The posts above are valuable to me... And I'm sorry you guys haven't found your way, but the job isn't what most dream it would be...

[captainsuperstorm]

it's not possible to go in this profession, I explain you why?

let's say you fly a plane, you need 500h to get the job, how, where???
you fly for 6 months, laid off.then???

then you find a new job on a Y plane, how do you get the 500h?

everywhere I go I see people who lost their job, and tell me they have been rated on XYZ plane and can not find another job because employers want 500-1000 on their planes.

This is why this is not a profession.Even a captain with 10000hours on a A340 can not get a job on 320! and now it s not even possible to go from 320 to 319 without 500h on the 319.

this has to stop!

[NukeHunt]

It's not hard to work out, is it? People want to earn £40k+ rather than earn next to nothing as an FI, bush pilot etc.

Are people getting into flying at such a young age for the right reasons if all they want is the big money?. Plenty of other jobs around that pay the same or more without the effort required to be a pilot.

Speak to most airline pilot who've been doing the job for a few years and they are bored out of their minds flying SOP's day in day out. For a 20y/o, 45 years is a very long time to be stuck doing a job that no longer interests you. Even just a couple of seasons of bush type flying isn't going to make much of a dent on their overall lifetime income, but the experience gained will certainly last a lifetime.

[pudoc]

I agree 100% with John Smith. A&E surgeons save lives everyday but for their first 5 years they earn somewhere in the region of 26k a year. And that's after coming out of university with a degree which takes 7-8 years of training.

[mauntown08]

I think a few of you guys are missing the point slightly.

You are claiming that 25k a year is not great money in comparison to life in the right hand seat? Tell that to the numerous guys who have their licence, and cant get a job....25k a year suddenly becomes a great deal of money. Even of the guys who are working in the right hand seat after getting their licence, many will not be earning as much as 25k. And that's after spending up 100,000 pounds on a licence followed by an extra 20,000 on a type rating

I'm not suggesting that there is no money in aviation, but to go into your training with the assumption that you will immediately get a place in the right hand seat of a shiny jet is not only speculative, it's ridiculous.

[ReadyForDeparture]

It is very difficult to find a job where one can earn anything like a SFO salary without at the very least an undergraduate degree.


Indeed it is difficult - and it's even harder to get an airline job.

Plenty of other jobs around that pay the same or more without the effort required to be a pilot
Tell that to the numerous guys who have their licence, and cant get a job....25k a year suddenly becomes a great deal of money.

I would give anything for a 25k a year job right now. In fact I was never looking to flying as a means to making big money - I'd settle for £30k a year whether I'm flying a jet or sitting behind a desk.

The problem with flying is that it is something that gets into people's blood. Yes there's the prospect of good money and the status but a lot of people just want to fly regardless of that. Otherwise why else would they still be going to flight schools and training for a career that has blatently low odds of success.

I'm not suggesting that there is no money in aviation, but to go into your training with the assumption that you will immediately get a place in the right hand seat of a shiny jet is not only speculative, it's ridiculous.

I quite agree. There are plenty of career choices out there that will have a high chance of success and decent money so why are people investing huge amounts of money and time chasing an inevitable failure? There might have been a time when it was possible to think "I want to be a pilot", do the training and land a job fairly easily. But these times are long gone for the forseeable future. The state of the airline industry is abundantly evident but people refuse to believe the reality and ignore the warnings. Something about flying makes people hell bent on pursuing it at any cost and makes them believe that they are invincible...other people may not be succeeding but they will, because they're different.

Maybe a doctor or a lawyer doesn't earn as much as an experienced pilot but at least they can graduate in the knowledge that they will have a high chance of a career, at the end of it, with a decent income and good benefits. In fact I woud not recommend pilot training to anyone at the current time, instead I would suggest the health-care profession or engineering - both are on the UK skills shortage list and are crying out for qualified people. Make's far better sense on paper but if you have that itchy flying bug in your blood...

[laakdown]

With everyone talking about money, could i quickly ask, do you think I would be raving mad to give up a self employed £150,000 a year job to try to become a pilot?

[stuckgear]

if income is a motivating factor, then you would be looking maybe a fifth of your current income as a kicking off point and maybe 8 years to get to the income you are at now, and of course with the way T&C are going what a high end salary will be in 8 years is anyone's guess.

[glojo]

"""With everyone talking about money, could i quickly ask, do you think I would be raving mad to give up a self employed £150,000 a year job to try to become a pilot?""

I think you would be raving mad to remain in a job that pays peanuts... Go for it... get your wings and fly like a bird

[unflownsky]

It's usually the people you meet along the way which lead to the opportunities, and the only way you will meet these people is by surrounding yourself with them
It's funny though : despite every effort made by many schools to asscociate their brand to some airlines, creating "ad hoc" courses, and despite the P2F philosophy, still the main pattern involves pure relations...

[B888]

One should only become a pilot in these times if you truly Love this profession ( make sure this is your PASSION ). If you get into it for money or status then eventually you will suffer. The late nights, reducing T & C's etc. can only be put on the back burner if you are fascinated by this profession.

[Craggenmore]

I can't just sod off to Africa or to some other obscure country. I can't afford to spend years shoving baggage around Stanstead for minimum wage. I don't have the time or money to do an FI rating and nor can I afford to live on FI wages (assuming I could even get a job doing that) much that I'd love to

Perhaps you should find the time and money because the above was my route into the industry and it's done me no harm..!

[Mr.Bloggs]

How pompous, Craggenmore. Finding time is relatively easy, by just stopping work. Finding money is impossible, given the above. The days of moving from FI to any old airline job are long gone. You old farts in the sandpit are clearly out of touch; just stay where you are and stop dispensing nasty advice.

[OberfuhrerPPRun]

It seems to be a general theme among so called "experienced pilots"

Completely out of touch with reality of what it takes to get a job today vs before.

Not only are they out of touch with reality, many of them are making money on wannabes wanting to get their first job! It is is easy isn't it to take others for a ride, and make them part with their cash so you can add a bit to your own pockets!

Funny, there is a company offering job possibility on a twin piston, wanting £6000 to train the pilot to fly! This is in the UK! Now this is on an aircraft that you do not even require a TR, but they invent their own little rules to make some more money!

These companies should expect as little loyality as they pay for newbies. I know many proper decent captains/FO's who are sad to see the state of the T's and C's of pilots today, equally there are those taking major advantage of this.

It seems there is an agenda to not upset the pilots well established, however there are plenty of established pilots ready to insult a newbie not seeing any other way into the business then having to play large price for their TR's or/and line training!

[AIRWAY]

A Job wont fall from the sky, considering the way aviation is nowadays. One needs to make an effort. What is the problem with Craggenmore's comment? Quite a few of my pilot friends back home started their aviation career in Africa, it was hard but paid dividends.

[stuckgear]

What is the problem with Craggenmore's comment? Quite a few of my pilot friends back home started their aviation career in Africa, it was hard but paid dividends.

There's plenty of African pilots looking for work as well.

[captainsuperstorm]

I can't just sod off to Africa or to some other obscure country. I can't afford to spend years shoving baggage around Stanstead for minimum wage. I don't have the time or money to do an FI rating and nor can I afford to live on FI wages (assuming I could even get a job doing that) much that I'd love to well, that' s the industry, what did you expect?, get a jet job?, or a well paid job as a FI right after school?

what I see, most of us coming out of school have a high nose attitude and we fall from very high when we discover the market is not going in the same way as we would like.

This is life! life goes on and you have to paddle like crazy, you win one day, you lose the other day. All you have to do is to make work your little brain and forget the surge of flying, the "me me me " nasty attitude.try to work on who you know. instead.

if you anderstand this, you will have a better life!:ok:

(in my point of view,pilots are the bigest egocentric in the world)

[Craggenmore]

From one of your posts Bloggs that you've made in the few months you've been a member on these forums......That does not preclude me from offering advice to the chap who has been experiencing difficulties.

When I finished flight training I had so little time and money I needed to do something about it. I desperatley wanted that precious first job flying but had no more money to carry on flying.

I got a job as a baggage handler at LHR whilst sending out CV's. Months later having got nowhere, I now had, at the very least, some money behind me. This gave me choices. I could either fly VFR during spare time to keep my hand in (more pointless than not I thought) or I could put the cash into something within the industry. So I enrolled in a Flight Instructor rating.

After passing the FI course I quit the baggage job having gained employment teaching PPL at a small school near London. For me, this was a turning point. It does the soul wonders to be paid to fly, to see hours going in the logbook each day and not at your expense for a change!

After several hundred hours now in the logbook and a known name around the flying club bar :} I had an offer to join the local air taxi outfit on the same day a cadet training provider wanted me to start a three week MCC/JOT which if successful meant a RHS at easyJet.

Passing the training providers selection was made far easier as (1) my scan and hand flying was in good shape and (2) I had many answers to their flying related questions at interview. "Tell us something that no one else here at this selection has already told us today? Well sir, I can load a Jumbo right down to a Fokker 50 in double quick time Sir".

As funy as it seems that answer helped seal it and all in that interview room knew it. I was the only one in the group who had put themselves through that kind of job to stay within the industry after initial flight training. Lucky perhaps but the more I loaded that baggage at 4am in the cold and rain, the luckier I became.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Would I be where I am now without the above - Who knows but doors opened because of what I did and that's the point. Sending out CV's from a bedroom would have achieved far less.

Looking back, I made some good friends and met some interesting people and I'm glad I mastered how to fly and talk at the same time whilst instructing.

So where from I sit, like I said, it never did me any harm. Perhaps Ill go to Africa and bush fly in the twilight of my career, but at least I get to fly there with my current airline.

So Bloggs, nasty advice? Not yet 40 either........:D

[KAG]

I'm glad I mastered how to fly and talk at the same time whilst instructing.I really know what you mean!

I have flown with some pilots UNABLE to talk and communicate (about pitch, rudder, speed...) during the flare. Those are among the ones with no instructor background, each time.

[unflownsky]

Honestly, I must really admit it : an FI rating is much more worth than a FATPL nowdays, economically speaking...Not to mention the experience you really build.
Unfortunately an FI position is often considered by many chaps a step you have to do while waiting that right seat job on a turbine aircraft that you have been dreaming for years. Too many instructors take it that way. Schools know this and underpay them or do not trust them enough... This is the path that took also this job to a dead end...

[JimbosJet]

I honestly feel that ignoring the legacy carriers for the moment, being a positive proactive person with some interest about them goes far further than experience etc. My last two airlines recruited more on amiability and the assumption that my experience was valid for their operation than any psychometric test. You've done the easy bit, anyone can get a license if they apply themselves enough (within reason), for you now the hard work really starts.

If you are really serious about flying then you need to take positive steps to get your name known. Meet people. Build relationships with people that may be in a position to help you out in some way, be it direct employment, information/leads or yet more contacts. Whether you feel it or not, you ARE a commodity now that you have your license, what you must do now is sell yourself - that doesn't mean brash statements about how skilled you are of course, it means you must get out there and market.

You make your own luck. It will most probably take time. Ultimately its a lottery but if you play the game often enough and more often than the next guy/girl then you have more chances of winning than they do.

A lot of people will fall by the wayside which is great so long as you're not one of them. Stay positive, you will gain your goal if you want to. In many ways the current recruitment situation is dire and interviews are few and far between. The simple fact is you WILL get an interview eventually if you stick at it and if you're a half decent chap/girl with a positive attitude and an interesting story or two about how you coped/tackled finding a job then I would put money on you being offered the job then and there!

People in the industry do empathize with people struggling to get their first job and most of us want you to succeed and will help out if we believe you're a good chap and we are in a position to do so. We were almost certainly there ourselves at one point or another.

My previous point about getting out there and meeting as many people connected to the aviation world as possible is absolutely key.

Above all stay healthy and manage any debt you may have sensibly.

[VFE]

Unless you can afford to go integrated and get a type rating or have the necessary prerequisites for CTC I wouldn't recommend anyone self funds a CPL fATPL IR anymore.

Times changed drastically following 9/11. Goal posts shifted and some (myself included) got caught out. Not to worry, everything happens for a reason.

I would recommend flight training as the rising aviation industry. ME IR instructors are few and far between and the money is pretty good for those suitably qualified. Forget airlines, the backside has fallen out of the starting salaries and you have to seriously slog it for many years now to get into that all hallowed jet job if you came via the modular route and even then you'll probably be worked to breaking point and be paid peanuts in comparrison to 10 years ago.

Have a look at the Cathay CPP scheme for qualified CPL holders with +250 hours. More sacrifice but might be worth a shot to those stuck between a rock and hard place still dreaming of the airline life?

[C-141Starlifter]

Jimbos Jet,

Very well said!!!

[captainsuperstorm]

most people I know who have no job, all hold the same speech:
" you have to know people","there are jobs out there ", "keep current","jobs will come"...and bla bla

then I see the " well said", "you are right man","yeah, it will come",... bla bla

but guys, you still have NO job! so stop the delirium!!!:{
what say your momy when you wake up at 12 everyday, stay in pijama all day watching TV? and you tell to your lovely mom that there are plenty of jobs , they are desperate for pilots, they need pilots, bla bla..

you license in fact is to pilot a TV remote control, ahaha!.:E

[timzsta]

Done a 1000+ hours in GA Instructing post license issue some time ago. Hours of time filling in on-line applications, only never to hear anything. Called for an interview at short notice once, but not sure anyone actually got hired out of it.
Enjoy a little bit of FI work still but my enthusiasm for chasing the dream is starting to run out.
I look at where most of my friends are - in better paid jobs, newer cars, bigger houses, more spare time, settled down with families. The reason I have none of those is because I have spent the last 10 years chasing the dream.

[Spacecruise]

I do agree with you, had nice job, house and girl friend but nothing left after chacing this dream why we should chace this dream which taking away all our comfort and happiness from our life but not given anything good in return :=

I would say that in every thread it is same questions and anwsers. Most of us done everything but no job sitting on the net and post on pprune. I dont think this will help. It will be better to change a career:O before it is too late.

Like many suggest if you dont have job get FI rating or do bush flying. But is there any jobs in those sectors? NO Lots of pilot out in africa looking for bush pilot jobs and many flight Instructors looking for there first job. Mean spend more money again no return , this is not what you call passion or full filling dream. Sorry if you dont like it.

Some would say, why dont you pay for TR with Hours and get job. But is there any guaranty for job .. NO.

Lots of punter out there suggesting for TR with hours but no gaurenty for job. Please dont waste your money.

I know, you would say that we have to start somewhere, yes you can start from somewhere but in aviation unfortunatly nothing left in this industry not near future.

Please I would suggest you all out there, dont waste your time looking for aviation jobs. Do somthing else which can bring happiness in your life not trouble and wait for the right time which i doubt it:bored:

Lot to write but it will be same again and again.:ugh:

BEST OF LUCK TO YOU ALL THERE

[daisy120]

I posted a comment or few a while back regarding the issue of RHS jobs in currency aeroplanes...the mantra was, get to Africa boys and girls and the seats will fall from the sky. Indeed, for a short time they did: 206 slots, BN2 and the odd PT6. then the SA wave happened, coupled with the NZ mob. Cheaper ATPl's and for the KIWIs, govt sponsored flying. The Africa sponge became saturated, unless you fancied Angola or Congo and yep, it's as taught as there now.
In the end, it's really about keeping the flame of interest alight until the very end. Agreed, the ATPl and the flying are hard yak but it all has to lead to a final and absolute purpose..a JOB! Forget Europe and the 320 endorsements, early command with Wizz and the sand pit slots with Air Arabia..it won't happen unles you have the turbine time!! ..... Get to. The Pacific. Take a look at Air Vanuatu..actually go there and knock on doors? Get a merchant deckie ticket and work a passage but just get there. take some kava, then look at Tonga, Solomons PNG. The jobs are there and when you do find them, Ill guarantee you won't be legging it straight back to Europe to Easy, Ryan et al. Just don't be put off by the distance!, in Santo, there are two 206 slots waiting for the take now...and Im not even looking for a job!,
fastina lentae...and best of luck!!

[captainsuperstorm]

still, it' s not a jet job or a well paid job , just a few jobs for desperate pilots ready to log a few hundred hours at 500-800$ a month on their single junk plane .
Plus ad the flight ticket to go to your island, maintain your icense(doc, sim, flight check,...), at the end, you are still a poor desperate chap looking for a home and most pilots will come back to momy with their useless 1000h of single pilot, single engine, !!!!:{ (something like:30yo, no job, no home, fly for food!!!:ouch:).

[exia]

Oh yes... China, Malaysia and the like seem to have plenty of CFI jobs but finding them is the trouble, they are not as adequately advertised as western CFI jobs at all and you really have to hunt for them. problem school such as JTIFS in China can be a B**tch of a land mine for starting-out CFI's which is why websites like Jetcareers and PPRuNe are such an asset to pilots, we NEED to stick together and heed each others advice!

I'm a wannabe and just starting out in this game yet I'm networking like crazy, anyone who's giving hours I'm getting them, I can't afford P2F schemes and heeding the advice of PPRuNe's old guard I'm not even thinking about it, these types of schemes damage the industry worse than FlyForFree starting out jobs ever could, you're basically telling employers that your skills are so worthless you should be paying them!

I'm guilty of contacting JTIFS in China but only to get their latest and greatest on their CFI contracts (As if they won't lie through their teeth, we really need an update on this academy since the last posts regarding it are quite dated, I guess nobody has any new information yet), as a newbie instructor 18 months as a CFI on dog-crap wages is better than a kick in the teeth, we all need hours starting out and Chinas cost of living is pretty low, as long as I'm not eating Mc dog testicle sandwiches for tea all is good, I've researched life in Qingdao, Linyi etc and am confident I could make it there, I won't delve into my own past but given relative experience China doesn't sound like such a huge challenge to me.

I am pursuing other schools though, CFI is a solid hours building route, time tested and still relevant in todays aviation according to the old guard, as you gain experience not only do things like the Cathay CPP take you a little more seriously (as I'm told CFI hours are notable) but you also gain experience as a CFI in itself, giving you more room to wriggle around while chasing that dream, Chinas aviation sector is slowly (Snails pace) opening up and any economy major worth the paper his diploma is printed on will tell you that due to years of outsourcing by the west China has a big stick these days, it makes sense to at least attempt forging some kind of career out there.

I'm already hitting the Rosetta Stone books and setting up meeting Chinese students from a local uni college because they need the practice and so do I. I am prepared to go the distance to achieve my goals and at 22 I have very little to loose, however I am working on academic assets to assist a career gear shift should my best laid plans fall flat on their face (which according to PPRuNe, is around an 80% possibility).

It's all about the motivation it seems, if you're willing to all out, do anything and go anywhere in this game and have the stamina to withstand the torrent of sh*t you have to push through starting out, you stand a chance.

Still, what do I know? I'm just a newbie after all. :}

You know what they say, chase your dreams but don't give up your day job.
Good luck out there guys!

[captainsuperstorm]

DCA malaysia: 500-700h dual
DCA thailand:500-700 dual
China: don't know but most of the schools are now closed (PANAM bejing, DA42 covered with yellow dust)

Indonesia: no idea

the rest of the world: need hours, need to be citizen, or need a greencard.

yes plenty of job around, the pilot shortage is here:E, but not for EU pilot.:{

if you belive you can get a job because you are a FI, you are wrong or take it now..

first: you need over 500h dual for immigration&DCA

second: it doesn't mean you will get a job, if there is no job, there is NO job!even if your name is John Travolta.

again and again and again: do something else, get a non flying job, get a girlfriend, make babies, get married, buy a car, a house with a dog... whatever! because in 5 years, it' s going to be the same s.t . in 10 years, the same,...in 50 years the same s...t!!!

what you want do in your life?: wait that airlines will call you to play the pilot, it won't happen! airline don't call pilot, you call them and they tell you what you have to do.If they want your money, they will get it.

They will never pay pilots, why should they? this industry will sink as long our government don't step up (like in the USA) and say:" now stop P2f, start to pay your pilots"

As long they can spit to your face day after day, aviation jobs all around the earth will disapear one after one and one day it will be like in Greece, where our teenagers (and everybody)will cheat the system :ugh: then the decline will happen and it will be war!:}. (oh my gGod, it's already happening in Nordway)

[usualguy]

I'am still looking, with all these schemes around, where are the jobs for a 2000h pilot with light turboprop experience?

it's all for captains or cadets! nothing between.

[zondaracer]

usualguy, lots of jobs in the US right now for guys with your experience... for those who have the right to work and live there.

[Monkeyflying]

Praticallybroke, are you after BA or Cathay or emirate big jet job with you 500 hours? If thats the case good luck, but if you wanna get a pilot job and start where most pilots starts then it's worth leaving your mums house stop feeling sorry for your self go to Africa or south east Asia work/suffer for a couple of years if you survive it you will end up with a couple of thousands hours turboprop or jets then you are set for whatever job you dreamed of before you went to your lying school, I'm telling this from experience and I've been unemployed for 4 years till I got sick of feeling sorry for myself and went got a job in a third maybe forth world country, I hate every single minutes here but I'm still flying an aircraft that I would never have dreamed of flying if I stayed at mums house I wasn't lucky to get a job here because whoever determined enough to find a job and plan to hang around here in southeast Asia long enough will eventually get a job. Good luck
Get up and go look for a job, filling apps will never get you flying

[usualguy]

monkeyflying is right,except there is no more job in Asia since 2008.Asia and south Asia is for asian people or lot of luck if you have 4000-6000h total+ type.Try in Hong Kong or Indonesia.

Sorry for my bad english, I will try to explian you a few things:

you can only be a FI if you have 700h dual(set by DCA).Still most schools are running out of cash and out of students.What I know is Asian schools got students in 2008, most have been unemployed since and passed the word.
80'000 euro for a training in Asia is very expensive for them and most have refused to be enrolled or didn't find any financial support.

I still don't understand how this market works where everybody ask for 500h on type, how do you change aircraft?do these airlines send you to other airlines and ask you to pay them to fly, then come back with your 500h?what's the point?if airline don't want you because you don't have the 500 magical hours on type , why someone else want you?.

This market is for top gun pilots with 5000h on type and still flying jet , they can be promoted captain in 1 year or less , or no experience at all.

We, the non top gun pilot with no much experience , who have been dumb enough to self sponsore in these "they neeeeeeed pilots" 'schools, regrettably we have discovered (after we've spent all our money) that there is no market for us unless you want go to africa at 500$ a month (if they pay the 20$ a day they own you, thank you guys to lower yourself))where they don't respect MTOW and maintenance, and you life expectation will be cut by 3.
Do you really think you will get a 320/737 job with your 2000 hours piston engine plane?

Try these islands between australia and US(pacific Islands), paid 6000$ a year or 20$ a day,( thank you guy to screw our life by lowering yourself) to carry tourists.

You make barely just enough to come back to see your girlfriend and your parents once a year and say you are a real well paid (uhuh!)professional pilot with plenty of single engine time (that nobody want when reaching 30-40 yo) but say to everybody with these hours thay you have a chance to fly a jet so your parents finally see it was a very good investment.

Now I will explain you why this aviation is screwed, specially the aviation in Europe.The LCC didn't screwed us, it's the system.
Take a EU guy (a guy like you, who has just enough cash and no rich parents), he needs to spend 100'000 euro in his commercial license, he get for his money 200h only and a cpl+14 ATP test.

In the other hand take a US, canadian, or an Australian pilot, he pays 3-4 times less than the JAA course, with the rest of the money left he can become a FI, or rent a plane and log plenty of hours for skydivers, banner towing, traffic watch,....

who do you think a company will hire? the canadian or US guys with practical experience and 1000h-3000h total , or a 200guy with 14 CAA "check the box" exams?

you decide but based on insurance requirement, I know a company will take the 3000hours guys insted of the 200h and his 14 CAA check the box exams.

This is why this system in Europe is not working and will never work for us in my point of view (I am realist, not a jet dreamers). Now if you say there are plenty of jobs in Saudia, India,...Well take these jobs and good luck to you, because it won't happen for EU pilots with no money like me and in a bad economic climate, don't think airlines will pay you a 320 rating + nice salary,...you will get nothing!

and to finish, when Europe has created the JAA license, job are only for EU people (exactly like in the USA with their FAA and green card ), India by example have decided to kick all foreigners out a few years ago, and you must be indian to get a job as a copilot there.
Indian people can not get job in europe, tell me why a EU guy can work in India?
We block them, they block us.


and to ad the cherry on the cake, we have now in europe the P2F scheme.P2F means you pay you fly, you don't pay you don't fly.
A copilot must pay the airline if he want work.
these P2F are prohibided in the 50 states of America , but totally legal in Europe.
Explain me?it seems to me rules are totally different and slavery is still legal in Europe.


Rant over, I think I have resume here all the problems we have in Europe!
Good luck to you to realize your dream, many will fail and then will come back totally broke on pprune to write things like: you have to try, I know a friend,(me too I know a friend who is at BA on 320,....)....

[50 50]

Hello all,
My first post yay! It seems that most of the writers in this post are from the UK, but I could be wrong. Let me assure you that things are just as dire down here in Australia. Most jobs going wanted 4000 plus hours 12 months ago. However i am seeing things turn around and some only want 300-400 now. In response to the comment "Get a life outside aviation", i reply: Aviation is my life outside my regular job. Expensive? YES, a waste? Not at all. I go to work to make money, simple as that, if it allows me to fly then the pitifully uninspiring task that i call a job is not quite as painful. (Barely).
Question: Do we fly because we want money, or do we fly because we want to fly?
By the way, I called myself 50 50 because with my luck with weather there is only a 50% chance i will get off the ground in the first place.

[hurryupandw8]

I agree with 50 50.I believe most of us started flying because we are passionate about it.Not because we wanted to end up in a 320 or to get rich.So why not (for example) get an FI rating, have fun flying small airplanes and wait for an airline job in due time?A Flying job should be a pleasure (not about what type you fly), and looking for it shouldn't become an obsession.I believe the biggest issue we have is that we cannot wait for the things we want anything anymore......I want that song NOW: then Shazam it, Itune it and buy it instantly.........I want to be an A320 F/O NOW: Integrated training, TR + P2F...

[50 50]

Hurry up and W8
With a name like that you must be military Ha Ha!