Virgin skywest ties go deeper

[Xcel]

As per JB today in the senate enquiry... Announcement on the way for Virgin to start a cadet sheme in the coming month with a general statement that it would likely tie in with Skywest.

Early 2012.

[rmcdonal]

Also looks like possible progression from Sky West to Virgin.

[BackdoorBandit]

With progression from Skywest to Virgin you will not need a Cadet scheme!

[cynphil]

A cadet program into Skywest would work well. A trained low time cadet goes into Skywest in the right seat of the most junior fleet and over time builds on the experience and makes his/her way thru to eventually progress to Virgin mainline. At that point having all the real world experience as well as the initial cadet training. This by far will produce the best trained and experienced pilots!!!!

[Mr. Hat]

Thats not what JB said.

What was said was cadets across the whole group. This one would assume will include direct entry onto 737 and E190.

You might be getting a little carried away cynphil.

[Ozavatar]

has anyone got any idea when skywest would start interviewing candidates for the ATR.All I got was the email confirming that I have the minimum qualification required to get a gig with them .That doesnt say much does it ??

Out of curiosity , how many ATR pilots are still around Oz waiting to be hired by Skywest.Have they got any indication from skywest at all as when the whole operation under VB/Skywest would eventually take Off

Thanks in advance.

[Hanz Blix]

There is a bunch in NZ with many thousands of hours on type who haven't heard a peep.

[Mr. Hat]

Hanz there is no money to be made out of employing experienced people.

[Chadzat]

I rate this as similar to the Carbon Tax, the 'people in charge' have found a way to tax/make money from the necessities in life. Carbon Tax is pretty much taxing us for the air we breathe, the self funded cadet cancer is a way to make money out of a pre-requisite for an aircraft to fly- Pilots. :ugh:

[TWOTBAGS]

There is a bunch in NZ with many thousands of hours on type who haven't heard a peep.

Well lets look at that a bit deeper, ANZ & Virign into bed on Trans Tasman routes, ANZ a substantial shareholder of VBA.....

Do you really think Borghetti is going to poach drivers from a major shareholder.....

Nope.... neither do I, maybe as contract trainers but I think that the Mt Cook guys will not hear a peep from the west island.....:E

[VBPCGUY]

Serious question.....................so what are my chances as an existing employee and someone who is keen to fly but has zero experience gaining a cadetship???

[KRUSTY 34]

I guess it depends VPCGUY on how valuable you are in your current role?

cynphil:

Just how demanding or less demanding do you think flying a 70 seat Regional Turbo-prop is? The main impetus for the current Senate enquiry has been the accident in the US involving a similar aircraft and type of operation. The notion that these ops are an ideal training ground for the main event (a Jet job) may not sit too well with the Politicians who just may expect a similar level of experience up front as they travel between Sydney and Canberra, be-it in a Dash 8 or an E-jet or a B737 or an ATR. Get the picture?

With a little luck the outcome of the Senate inquiry will put an end to Cadetships, at least for the purpose of providing cheap labour for the RHS of RPT aircraft over 5700kg, where frankly they neither belong or are needed.

[psycho joe]

With a little luck the outcome of the Senate inquiry will put an end to Cadetships, at least for the purpose of providing cheap labour for the RHS of RPT aircraft over 5700kg, where frankly they neither belong or are needed.

I think before that happens you'll see 'arrangements' with charter companies that will see cadets flying 1500 hrs worth of scenic charter flights in light SE aircraft.

[OhForSure]

Reality is flying an RPT turbo-prop is more difficult than a modern jet. If for no other reason... a jet has an autothrust system and significantly more automation. A little research on the number of low-time jet accidents vs low-time prop accidents illustrates this clearly.

[The Kelpie]

Psycho Joe

If that happens then so be it.

3 years in the bush will sort the men from the boys (no offence intended ladies)

This will be enough to turn the Gen Y's off as things will get too hard whilst drowning under a significant debt on casual contracts!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[VBPCGUY]

I guess it depends VPCGUY on how valuable you are in your current role?

Im not irreplaceable but if there is any remote chance of fulfilling a dream of being a pilot, then I have to go for it. For me its the whole expense and outlay and I would have to leave VB altogether, this is a perfect opportunity to avoid all that.

[The Kelpie]

VBPCGuy

Details of the programme have not been announced yet so so not know whether there are multiple entry paths at this stage.

...and the lack of a salary for 18 months.

Good Luck with it all

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[psycho joe]

3 years in the bush will sort the men from the boys (no offence intended ladies)



With all due respect, what exactly do you mean by this.

I spent almost ten years in 'the bush' in various parts of the world and can honestly say that whilst it was all very interesting, virtually none of it was relevant to flying a glass jet. Along the way I've also met plenty of people who were quite frankly incapable of flying a kite whilst chewing gum, yet some of those people are now check captains on Australian jets. :eek:

[Mr. Hat]

VBPCGUY, you will have to go thru the same selection process as everybody else. At this stage it looks like it will go via Skywest so I doubt your vb current gig will make any difference.

If its what you want back yourself and have a go. You could try for the other cadetships as well. Up to you.

[The Kelpie]

Psycho Joe

Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, that was certainly nor my intention.

Flying is the easy bit.

The hard bit is living either in a **** hole for up to 3 years and only being paid for the few hours you get to fly each week or if you are lucky enough to get a gig in Darwin with a few more casual hours each week then you live in one of the most expensive places to live in Australia.... And don't think 'I will get a part time job in woolworths or Coles' because you will never get the shifts to line up with the unpredictable hours you will be flying, you will get fatigued, and you will start letting people down. This is not a good attribute for a pilot to have.

Poverty is a real problem up north and I have seen many have to throw the towel in, go back to a city for a while and earn money before returning. Some do not return as it is just too hard!

Please do not under estimate how tough living up north and flying in GA can be! Having said that I thoroughly enjoyed it!

I did it, and I have to say surviving financially was very very tough, and I did not have a massive debt round my neck with substantial repayments to make.

I sincerely wish you well

More to Follow
the Kelpie

[psycho joe]

Kelpie, I've done the 'up north' bit plus a bit of north of up north and west and east of there.

The main beef with cadetships within these hallowed halls (pprune) seems to be the belief that adversity is a right of passage. Put simply, It's not.

If V(whatever their name) can set up a quality cadetship, then good luck to them.

If GA companies suffer as a result, then Karma's a b!tch isn't it:E.

[HomeJames]

Joe my good fellow,

I don't think (in my glenmorangie addled mind) that the majority believe that adversity is a rite of passage. A person only truly remembers the good things of their past, not the more abhorrent parts, with some exceptions. When the ones on here speak of 'doing the hard yards', I do not think they remember how it felt thinking they may never make it as a CPL, struggling for that first job, let alone the first twin.

What I think some take umbridge with is the payment that takes place. Most of the ladies and gents who experienced the 'adversity' you speak of, had to put themselves through flying school, whilst still supporting themselves through everyday life. Now when you compare that to a cadet scheme in which the cadet must fund it by their own means (or 'other' means) in addition to support themselves (or being supported) during the 9+ months of a fulltime cadetship, we now come to the core of the 'umbridge'. The above situation essential means a select few young hopefuls (read silvertails) are really the only candidates elligible for said cadetship. This in turn, financially excludes a great deal of what may otherwise be very good candidates.

If these programs were a fully funded scholarship situation (therefore levelling the playing field), I think the 'umbridge' would be considerably less. At present, not even Australia's national flag carrier does this.

However, the above is only in my addled mind, feel free to disregard as you see fit.

Straight home and don't spare the horses

[KRUSTY 34]

I think by far the most serious problem with Cadetships in Australia, is we do not need them. This is not Europe. This is not Asia!

The old QF scheme, and please correct me if I'm wrong, was probably not that dissimilar to the process when applying for the RAAF. In so much as the candidate faced extremely tough competition for a most coveted apprenticeship, funded by the parent organisation, and a properly structured and lifetime career (if sucessful) was the end result. If they didn't cut the mustard, then they were culled.

Cadetships in Australia today are an abomination. They are simply there to make money, exploit the most exploitable, and in the process drive down the wages and conditions of all professional pilots (thereby making more money)!

It's been done to death of course, but if Cadetships in Australia were employed as an investment rather than as a Cash Cow, they would not exist.

Back on thread somewhat. What's the start date for these Skywest/DJ ATR's? July sometime? Pretty safe to say there won't be any Cadets in the cockpits. Anyone know who'll be crewing them?

[The Kelpie]

Krusty

I totally agree, if done properly like the old QANTAS cadetship and in relative numbers there is nothing wrong with them. We do not need them!

The cadetships as we see them today were 'sold' to the australian airlines by Petteford of Oxford Aviation Academy given the serious funding problems in the UK that seriously threatens his business model.

Oxford have some serious safety issues (cultural and operational) and significant experienced instructor shortages at the moment. Certainly not the type of organization portrayed by their smooth talking and glossy brochures. They have a serious backlog on IFR training, 6-8 months I heard and Pettedord is still trying to drum up business. Iraqi Airways are the latest client being taught the JAR syllabus by imported instructors.

If you see someone from Oxford ask them about the recent incident involving a foreign cadet where the CFI was pressured by senior management in the UK to send him solo despite the advice from one of her grade 1 instructors who had flown with this cadet on a pre solo check 3 times and said he wasn't ready. What happened on the first solo was an accident in the making although it ended without incident thanks to the intervention of a GMH instructor that talked him down.

CFI's should not be caving into management on such issues. The CASA / ATSB report should make interesting reading if it is reported.

More to Follow

the Kelpie

Edit: just learned that the Grade 1 has left on his own volition given that he had an offer from link that was quashed after an Oxford manager of German origin had a word with Qlink and told them that if this Grade 1 left that it would cause major operational problems. His plan didn't work cause the G1 left anyway and Oxford still have operational problems....,and no sufficiently experiences king air instructors other than the CFI ( who doesn't want to instruct on it!!)

Note to instructors: working for Oxford can seriously damage and hinder your career!!

[Mr. Hat]

God it's been done to death even I can't read another word about cadets.

Whatever.

If you look right and conclude that you are baby sitting whilst in command of a machine I suggest updating your resume.

[virginexcess]

Can someone explain the rationale as to why a commercial enterprise (airline) shouldn't be allowed to identify a market (cadetships) and turn it into a profit centre, which provides greater shareholder return, and greater business certainty by guaranteeing a stream of appropriately trained pilots for a known distance into the future.

Surely the market will sort out if the risk/reward ratio is acceptable.

I don't have an opinion on cadets other than i have flown with plenty and found them to be good in normal ops and initially out of their depth in non normal ops.......much like every other pilot new to a big jet. Much like i was when i first started flying multi-crew aircraft.

I now have a lot of experience and i can assure you that i do not come to work with the expectation that i will need to rely on the decision making skills of an inexperienced pilot (cadet or otherwise) to provide a good outcome. There is no question i value their input, but at the end of the day, the reason i am there is because i have the experience. Isn't that how it is meant to work. I pass on my experience to the new guy (cadet or otherwise) and he or she eventually has the knowledge and experience to take my spot and continue the cycle.

On the contrary i do support the company's need to do what is best for their business, as long as it complies with labour laws and industry regs.

So i believe there is nothing wrong with cadet schemes, but there may be a problem with the way a couple of our companies seem to be trying to circumvent the laws of the land.

[The Kelpie]

Virginexcess- Agreed!!

[Connaught]

wow all this cadet stuff makes me think you pilots shoulda been engineers
:E

personally i am only tired of people high jacking threads to bitch about them like this and others

if you don't like it move on, its been one of our tenants for a long long time

and psycho joe hit it on the head

karma is a b!tch:E

[Sir Donald]

How long is Virgin going to be around with the "spend your way out of trouble" mantra, should be the question.

[ernestkgann]

A lot longer than the 'flair yourself to death' philosophy they used to have.:sad:

[Mr. Hat]

A good question but you also have to ask:

What is the financial cost of the constant employee vs employer battle that seems to be ever raging at the QF group. Mates that work there tell me its like nothing I've seen before as another thread suggests. They wouldn't help their company in a million years.

If you take just this forum as as an example it seems three quarters of the threads are QF group related. Its also apparent Senator Xenophon has no shortage of Q group employees quietly shoving the knife in the background.

John Borghetti must be loving it. Time will tell I suppose.

[Alistair]

The above situation essential means a select few young hopefuls (read silvertails) are really the only candidates elligible for said cadetship. This in turn, financially excludes a great deal of what may otherwise be very good candidates.

You need to expand your horizons to the way these things work in the Northern Hemisphere. It is not the "silvertails" but your average Joe being taken into these schemes. At the end of the "selection" process the main criteria for being accepted is their willingness to sign a loan application. These candidates are often the dreamers who always wanted to be a pilot but could see no way into the industry until that glossy brochure hit their doorstep. There is a branch of a certain "local bank" in the New Forest in the UK that has done exceedingly well from writing loans to cadets. Their quiet little branch must have books that are out of all proportion for their location.

Cadetships in Australia today are an abomination. They are simply there to make money, exploit the most exploitable, and in the process drive down the wages and conditions of all professional pilots (thereby making more money)!

This is the problem, not the cadets. This form of cadetship is an industrial problem that creates safety issues and is used to undermine the financial ability of employees to have a stable, financially rewarding career.

The financial stress these cadetships place on the candidate, combined with all the other cost saving measures that airlines use when employing cadets such as: short term job placements, summer contracts, small monthly retainers combined with flight pay etc. lead to highly stressed, low experienced FO's in the flight decks of RPT airliners. They spend most of their time out of work eating pot noodles in share accommodation worrying if they are going to get called in off standby so they can make a few extra dollars to pay the bank loans, rent etc. They will work regardless of their state of health/rest as they need the money. Often they will have a second job. Spend some time in the cruise with these guys and you will hear plenty of tales along these lines.

Can someone explain the rationale as to why a commercial enterprise (airline) shouldn't be allowed to identify a market (cadetships) and turn it into a profit centre, which provides greater shareholder return, and greater business certainty by guaranteeing a stream of appropriately trained pilots for a known distance into the future.

The safety and industrial implications alone make this a morally abhorrent view to take on this type of scheme.

If a company sets up a cadet scheme that manages a fair and equitable way to shoulder the financial burden and produce well trained cadet pilots who are able to focus on their primary job, then more power to them.

[sled_driver71]

Guy and Girls, I'm not a fan of cadets either but considering nothing has be signed yet (and not to mention its not in the Skywest EBA) can we please not let this thread get hi-jacked by 'cadet bashing.'

The EBA has provision for contract pilots, but nothing on cadetships. And how will this affect seniority? Wonder what management will be offering the pilots to re-write their EBA?

[KRUSTY 34]

And that's the real issue sled_driver71.

How many type rated and experienced ATR drivers does Skywest have? Probably not many I'd say. Borgetti and Co may be casting out the Cadet line (cheaper than F50 F/O's?), but to get this puppy up and running they will need the right people, and I would hazzard to guess, need them in place now.

I know one experienced ATR Check Captain (formerly Mount Cook) now working for REX. Might be worth a look JL. That's of course if they can lure you away from the highly desirable package you're on on at the moment (insert sarcasm here).

Forget cadetships at the moment, the main game will be what the Terms and Conditions will be compared to what the current Skywest turbo-prop drivers are on. Logic says it should be more, quite a bit more! If not, then getting this thing off the ground may take more than scare tactics from management and their "clever" HR people. :ooh:

Anyone heard anything yet?

[psycho joe]

Forget cadetships at the moment, the main game will be what the Terms and Conditions will be compared to what the current Skywest turbo-prop drivers are on. Logic says it should be more, quite a bit more!If not, then getting this thing off the ground may take more than scare tactics from management and their "clever" HR people.



Isn't that what they said about B777's and A330's.

My guess is, offer 3-5% more and people will flock (I say FLOCK) to these things. Step over their own mother they will.

[KRUSTY 34]

I agree Joe'. but it apears (rumuor wise) that they may be planning to offer less! Hense in part, the rolling out of the cadetship boogyman.

Let's say they do offer more, but only 5%. 1st year F50 F/O at Skywest earns around $64k + O'time above 75 hours P/Month, plus allwances, etc, etc. Now add 5%. It's concievable that even a relatively junior F/O may end up earning close to $80K, and IMHO that's fair enough. What do DJ currently pay their first year E-Jet F/O's, especially after Salary sacrifice?

When I first saw the T&C's of Skywest F50 F/O's I was initially encouraged. Here's a company I thought that seems to have struck the right and equitable balance, and from what I've heard has a much lower attrition rate than most other operators. It aint' Rocket Science.

I know operationally the East coast Turbo-prop operation will be run by Skywest, but the link and synegies with DJ will be deep, and the last thing DJ want is for "their" Turbo-prop drivers to be earning close to or even more than some of the Jet drivers, as this will invariably put upwards pressure on the jet pilot's salaries.

I reckon they'll offer less money, and use the threat of a cadetship as leverage.

[virginexcess]

Has anyone heard how the VB A330 line training program with CX is going?

[KRUSTY 34]

And the relevance to Skywest is....?

[Mr. Hat]

It's all speculation for the minute, anything can happen.

It could be that cadets go via Skywest on their way to Cruise FO 777 or B737 E190 positions.

Or they could be DE to all the VB positions. The owner of Skywest was mentioned by JB so one would have to assume some sort of tie up through the ATR's.

Time will tell.

[KRUSTY 34]

It is speculation Mr. Hat. Seems though there was a meeting between Skywest mangement and the pilots industrial body around 2 weeks ago. Some reluctance for skywest pilots to disclose the goings on, but I'll hazard a guess that as the time (July 31) draws near, we'll see some interesting to-ing and fro-ing.

My 2 cents:

Skywest pilots, you have them over a barrel. do not waver. Do not be guiled by tales of woe (standard management ploy). The operation has been commited to, and if management were thinking of earning a few extra bucks at your expense, then many others will have to live with that legacy. Future generations of skywest pilots will not thankyou if you fall short of the mark. You have an opportunity to maintain equitable wages and conditions for you and your Families.

Don't F#ck it up! :ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

Things have gone a little quiet on this subject in 'Prune land, but it seems there is plenty going on behind the scenes.

From my sources, it appears that the negotiating of T&C's for the new operation must have been a fairly low priority for management. The deal (Sywest/DJ tie up) has been done. The aircraft have been organised. The training sorted, along with a $27K cost to the new applicant for the ATR endorsement WTF!!!, and even a Cadetship announced in Canberra by El Duce'.



Management then sauter along to the pilot group and tells them how it will be...

Fleet pay for the ATR/F50. ie: Same money to fly both types!
New pilots employed on the ATR would not go onto the Skywest seniority list (divide and conquer)
New pilots employed on th ATR would not be able to bid across to the WA operation
Seperate employment contract!
I don't know what's worse. The obvious inequity of it all, or managements expectation that the pilots would just roll over?

To say the Skywest pilots were pissed off is probably an understatement. Once it became apparent that the pilot group would not stand for it, some furious "negotiating" then took place. These clowns (HR/management) really don't get it, or are they so used to seeing rollovers in this country that the smug little :mad:'s just thought it would be that easy!

SALPA/TWU put what they thought was fair. 10% extra, and full Skywest Terms and conditions. The company's response was pretty standard "That'll never happen", so the games began.



I have been told the negotiations are yet to be finalised, but here's where it's at so far

New hires will be employed under the Skywest collective Agreement including full seniority rights.
Loss of bid rights for 30 months.
Possible agreement with VB for a clearly defined career path into VB mainline. "Take that with a grain of salt!" (my bolding, and further more if it isn't signed sealed and delivered it's not worth the C02 it was expelled upon)
Pay as per F50 rates + 5%
My source says that whilst there is in principal agreement on some of the items above, there has yet to be a final consensus.

Hold out for what's fair boys and girls. You have the opportunity to be one of the few pilot groups in Australia to actually keep pace with airline expansion. July 2011 has already been decided by the powers to be, even though they initially didn't think enough of you all to include you in the process.

As for the reported $27K for the ATR endorsement, that info came from another source, but if true, Good God Almighty! No wonder they're talking about Cadets. The bottomless pit of all things exploitable. good luck with that one! :ok:

[Chadzat]

I dont think the 27K endo cost is quite correct. Have a look at the Skywest CA- there is nothing in there about having to pay for an endorsement before employment.

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks Chadzat.

That's a rumour floating about on the East Coast. I thought it was a bit rich. Mind you, I'm assuming the game isn't over just yet?

[Mr. Hat]

I think someone is pulling your leg KRUSTY.

27k for a turboprop endorsement. No offence but that really is quite funny.

I see you are keenly interested in this tie up..:E:E

Hmmm:E:E

[KRUSTY 34]

You're more than likely right Mr. Hat. As I said, an East Coast rumour, but time will tell on that one.

My interest really only applies to the continual down pressure on Pilot's Wages and Conditions. I've seen time and time again where operators introduce a new type, or expand the business, and expect their largest employee group to help foot the bill. That would be OK if we lived in a fair and equitable world with a reasonable and transparant exchange of mutual trust and respect! See where I'm going with this.

Suffice to say, I abhore people being taken advantage of while those pulling the strings smugly pocket their bonuses because an employee group has accepted less than what they are entitled to.

That's all.

[aussie027]

Skippers EBA here in Perth has the endorsement/training bond on the Braz and dash 8 at $25K or 2 years service.
I think that is for a command endo?? Anyone know???

So a bond for 27K on ATR endo??? Sound about right or not in comparison???

Other operators of F100 or BAe 146 types have a bond of about $30k and 2-3 yrs service for those types last I heard.

[GAFA]

Remember guys the endorsement will be completed in a simulator and the cost to run a turboprop sim (ATR, Dash 8 etc) is no different to running a jet simulator as they are all boxes sitting on jacks. They all need power, sim instructors, sim techs to run them etc the only difference is the flight deck put inside the box.

[babbaloo]

Hi folks.. Have been hearing some talk that several VB E-jet fo's are contemplating applying for ATR Command positions. Worries about the impending down turn and lack of command courses ( especially in Brisbane)for the foreseeable future etc....As many have previous Command Regional Airline experience, surely they would be perfect!!.. Any thoughts on this ??

[GAFA]

Only problem is the current add for ATR positions is for pilots with time on type within the last 2 years.

[Mr. Hat]

..and the command positions are not available to the Virgin pilots.

They were given away to the lowest bidder.

[Dragun]

Impending downturn?

[4dogs]

Folks,

What is there to stop the contracts on offer being outside the Skywest EBA?

My understanding is that Cobham hired people on common law contracts and Jetstar said it was going to employ the NZ cadets on Modern Award contracts, in both cases despite existing collective bargains. I would expect that Skywest could offer a new contract for this operation because it doesn't look like a Skywest operation and it is conveniently not a Virgin operation!

Is there a rule that says they have to employ people on the same terms as existing collective agreements or can they just do what they want? :mad: :mad:

Stay Alive,

[The Kelpie]

4 dogs

My understanding is this:

When an EBA is in place, the agreement provides that all people currently employed by the company at the effective date of the agreement and all new starts into the future of the EBA must be employed under the terms of that EBA. After all that is the purpose of having a collective agreement in the first place and that is what is envisaged by the Employment Legislation of this Country.

What Qantas, Jetstar and Cobham are all doing is suggesting that the EBA that is in force is restricted to one particular company (with an individual ABN) and have in all cases introduced a further legal entity, a 'sham' company if you like, which they believe are not bound to employ new employees on the EBA. The EBA is a legal document registered between the respective Union and a specific company although there are provisions that other company's will be covered by it.

The new Modern Award being offered to Cadets is being offered by a legal entity named 'Jetstar Group' and not Jetstar Airways Limited which is the signatory to the Jetstar Pilots Award 2008. The company are currently proceeding on the basis that they are correct and will continue to pursue this strategy until told by a court to stop. This is clearly not the intention of both of the parties to the agreement when it was executed.

If company's are allowed to set-up new entities and employ people in them to effectively set aside the EBA agreement then the whole of the provisions for the use of EBA's within the country's employment legislation will be in tatters

I hope this helps

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[sled_driver71]

4dogs

I noticed there is a specific line in the Skywest EBA thats states "any flying involving Skywest Airlines Pty Ltd.......shall be flown by Skywest pilots."

[geeup]

If they do the endorsements in Toulouse then $27k would be about the money but I would consider it unreasonable if they are to do the course internally.

Where are the aircraft coming from?

I assume Mt Cook will do the T&C? Which would mean Kiwi rules apply :ooh:

[sled_driver71]

Just heard from a source at Easterns that there's an EOI sent out for Q400's drivers to move to Perth?

Anyone else heard similar?

A reaction to Skywests iminent arrival of their ATR's?

[babbaloo]

Skywest ATR interviews being held in Melbourne today..Accepting DEC without endorsement and they will be bonded. 100+ on offer with Brisbane base at this stage..Will know more on this shortly.

[muII]

Boo Boo

I hope you do get more info soon, as the bond amount is incorrect, have a look at the xr ca.

[babbaloo]

Skywest ATR DEC Interviews were held today and will be for a further two days it seems. Pay is close to 105k for a Captain (not endorsement daah) and overtime starts from 59 flying hrs a month. 12 month bond of $12000 for the endorsement. Hope that is a little more clear.(definately non endorsed guys at this stage as well). Cheers LOO

[Going Nowhere]

O/T pay maybe be of interest to some QLink guys :ok:

[aviationboy]

67k plus allowances and OT for FO/s? But the downside is 27k downpayment for endo with no bond option....

Tempting, but I'd like to see the agreement with respect to VB progression etc first. Also time to command is an issue... no one wants to sit in the right seat of an ATR forever with no hope of moving :yuk:

[Boston]

aviation boy - not what I was told.. only a 12K / 12 months bond.. training provided at no cost, like the old days!

[GAFA]

There are some Ejet pilots who are keen to go across in training or checking roles for a period of time and have asked the company to look at it.

[Soar2384]

So anyone heard anything about bases apart from BN?

[Chadzat]

Soar- nothing has been heard, because its still early days and nothing has been decided. I dont think they have even decided if BN is definitely the first base.

You can have a fair idea of where bases will be in the future by looking at where the e170's are currently used.

[KRUSTY 34]

Interesting Re: the $27K upfront. Same rumour I heard a few weeks ago. The $12K/12 month bond sounds a lot more reasonalble, and rational!

Heard also that DJ are picking up the bill for the A/C leasing costs. Starting to sound a bit like the Continental/Colgan relationship. Will Skywest get to keep the money they earn, or wil DJ pay them a flat rate for sectors flown, ala Colgan? :sad:

[Chadzat]

Krusty- The agreement is an ACMI "Cost plus". So Aircraft, Crew (Tech and Cabin) Maintenance and Insurance costs plus a reasonable profit (probably in the realm of 5%) is what VB will pay to XR.

What would be very interesting to know (but is highly confidential no doubt) is the actual $$ amounts that have been agreed to with respect to the above.

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks Chadzat, interesting indeed.

What I find perplexing is that such a deal can be done without all the costs (Crew wages and conditions for example) being finalised! Did XR simply say to DJ, "this is what we'll pay them", and the costings worked out on that basis. Was the deal conditional on certain Wages/conditions parameters? Were those parameters met? If not, will that impact on XR's income from DJ? Could explain the initial Gap in expectations between management and the pilot group.

I hope for all those concerned that it comes off. Perhaps I'm underestimating the organisational detail. At least I hope I am? :sad:

[Stiff Under Carriage]

So what is it gentleman?

$12K / 12 month bond or $27K no bond?

Two very different, and not even close costs that will certainly make the difference between considering the job or complete disregarding it?

Anyone know for sure?

[muII]

$12K / 12 month bond

This is what it states in their 2010 C.A.

[KRUSTY 34]

As a bond it sounds about right. REX bond their pilots $15K for the SAAB, but that's over 2 years. I think the SAAB endo costs approx $15-$20K, so I guess $12K bond for an ATR is still on the cheap side.

Shhhhh. They may be listening, er... watching,...reading, you know what I mean. :ok:

But as MUII said, I think a major win in the negotiations (when they finally took place) was the inclusion of the Skywest CA. And fair enough too!