Bring Back the Carrier

[cheifofdefence]

I told them this would happen

Libya: Tory MP David Davis urges UK defence rethink

"The crisis in Libya should prompt an immediate reversal of cuts to the defence budget, a senior Tory MP says.
David Davis said he supported calls for a no-fly zone in Libya as there was an "obvious" moral case for action.
But he said defence cuts, such as axing the Ark Royal aircraft carrier and Harrier jets, would make this more difficult and they should be reversed."

BBC News - Libya: Tory MP David Davis urges UK defence rethink (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12770467). :ugh:

[just another jocky]

Haven't we covered this?

"If we are serious about enforcing a no-fly zone over Libya, we must recognise that decommissioning the Ark Royal and the Harriers removes from Britain's armour the most effective way of doing it. They should be restored to active service immediately."

If he was talking FA2, then yes. :ugh:

More political bolleaux.

[NURSE]

when is HMS Illistrious due out of refit?

[Double Zero]

If he was talking FA2, then yes

-normally I'd be jumping up & down and agreeing, the loss of the FA2 ( and not even going for Harrier 2+ which with the great benefit of 20/20 hindsight would have been the way to go ), was catastrophic, and it could well be said paved the way towards binning the FAA - AGAIN, doesn't anyone read history ?!

- Oh, ok you'll be out out of office before anything nasty happens, Ta for serving our country...
But for the Libyan excursion, if it comes to that, the chaps in white hats will have a lot of cover, and minimal A-A- threats, while it seems like requiring accurate A-G weapon delivery - can anyone suggest a better combination than GR9's & Ark Royal / Illustrious ?!

Answers mentioning the U.S. go for consideration in File 13...

[Wrathmonk]

can anyone suggest a better combination than GR9's & Ark Royal / Illustrious

Buccs off HMS Eagle. About the same chance of it happening!;):ugh:

Why not keep it to the art of the possible rather than fantasy? In this case the UK Fast Air contribution can only be the Typhoon. If you want carrier air then its the USN or the French. The quicker everyone accepts we are where we are and cuts their cloth accordingly the better. Let the EU/NATO non-swimmers deal with this one.

And whilst there may not be a significant surface AAA threat I would suggest there may be an air to air threat (perhaps not for very long ....:E).

Having said all that leave it much longer (end of next week?) and the need for a NFZ will have gone. Which is why I suspect there seems to be endless talk and no action. DC is probably hoping nobody calls his bluff ..... 'cause he could end up with egg on his face.

[Finningley Boy]

Yes and not a Chicken Egg either, a great big Ostrich one!

FB:)

[airborne_artist]

RN could contribute some ASaC7s and RAF some tanking.

The Italians, Maltese and Greeks (Crete) make their tarmac available, and the French/Septics produce the pointy-jets.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/10/24/1287930376796/a-simples-life-001.jpg

[draken55]

Ark Royal is not available and neither is Illustrious as she is in refit until the Summer. Ocean could fly off ASaC7's if they were needed and time to deploy her was available.

Would Malta offer HNS as a non-allinged Country (especially with the Colonel still in power) or Greece for that matter unless any NFZ is UN agreed?

How many pointy jets does the Aeronavale have? Will Italy become involved? Is the US more bothered about Iran and Bahrain?

Other than posturing can the UK/France actually do anything pdq? Should we?

[airborne_artist]

Greece for that matter unless any NFZ is UN agreed?


Offer to pay landing fees then - the Greeks need all the cash they can get.

[Geehovah]

A NFZ in Libya doesn't need a carrier; there are plenty of NATO fixed wing bases within easy range, particularly tanked. The Balkans ops required far longer sortie durations than would be needed for this one.

What is needed is a flexibility of platforms giving SEAD and AD capability. We seem to be short of the former and, had you checked the Forum 6 moths ago, we, apparently, didn't need a Typhoon to provide the latter.

The next issue is numbers. If we keep reducing Typhoon force levels at recent rates we may be able to provide a sqn if we're lucky.

I trust those short sighted individuals at all levels are taking note.

[A2QFI]

I have seen it suggested that the Greek financial demise was contributed to in some measure by the losses incurred by their staging of the Athens Olympics. In that case we have much to look forward to after our probable losses in 2012.

[MG]

What complete rubbish. How much simpler could this be? Sigonella is a skip and a jump away, even Cyprus isnt so bad even if it is a little further. Why on Earth is this being used as an argument for carriers? If Malta were to offer ramp space (far side of Luqa, there's probably a few left in the RAF who might remember where to park!) then even better. There's no such thing as a Non Aligned Movement these days, so so it's more to do with being an influential member of the EU and I'm sure Malta wouldn't mind helping out if it means EU support for the potential influx of migrants from N Africa.

[A and C]

The RAF ramp at Luqa is now coverd by a 2 bay Lufthansa Technic A380 maintenance hanger.

[MG]

Even better - a ready-made sun shelter!

[draken55]

MG


Now that a Resolution has been passed we will be able to see what happens in practice over Libya. Remember that this is to achieve something above a country that is on our doorstep in comparison to others where UK interests could be at threat in coming years.

Your response too readily assumes that HNS and friendly bases will always be made available and chooses to simply ignore one country's inconvenient but actual current political stance.

[MG]

No, I'm talking about this situation and only this one. To use the carrier argument based upon this scenario is to ask for it to be shot down, if you'll forgive the pun. Use the argument in a far reaching, Falklands-type scenario if you want it to demonstrate the parlous state of UK defence policy.

I actually fully support the idea (though perhaps not the over-inflated cost) of a conventional carrier but the Harrier/Ark Royal argument is over, it's moved on.

[draken55]

MG

Lets not get fixated on the Harrier Carrier issue. Even with the Libya NFZ the assets that the UK can offer are determined by proximity to a friendly land base. For example we cannot deply helo's such as Apache, a pretty useful option for stopping tanks and other AFVs'.

One of the Ark's final ops was to deploy Apache as part of her Tailored Air Group. This requirement was identified in the 1997 Defence Review but downplayed in last years SDSR which looks more odd with each passing day:(

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

The PM has just answered a question on this very subject, when asked if he might reconsider the decision to scrap SHAR etc he said quite simply there was no need to, no one else is sending carriers to the area so why should we.

He does have a very valid point:ok:

[orca]

Are we absolutely sure no-one is sending carriers? I will bet anyone (PM if necessary) my salary that sea based fixed wing is either there already or will be within a week.

If you're not brave enough to go for the salary, how about a pint?

Harrier and carrier are not coming back - but that doesn't mean everyone else is quite so short sighted.

[NutLoose]

no problem they are being deployed to LIBYA lol..... :ugh:

UK fighter jets deployed to Libya - UK News - MSN News UK (http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=156553254)

one would think they could tell the press could difference between a no fly zone and actually being deployed to the country...... bet that will suprise the Libyan Air Force to see several Tiffies taxying in :p

[Not_a_boffin]

The things the NFZ are likely to demonstrate are :

1. Need a SEAD capability, which UK is ill-equipped to provide and if the boxheads aren't playing leaves us waiting for the nearest sqn of Prowler/Growler.

2. Depending on what FOB is used, the number of cabs required (even with tanking) to maintain a mere two-ship CAP is going to be eye-watering - my bet is 8 cabs per two-ship station for any length of time. Ark plus GR9 unlikely to be able to do much to support this. Even with FA2, would have struggled to do much more than a couple of CAP stations for any sustained period. BUT

3. That's why you buy bigger carriers with the ability to run multiple CAP stations and do SEAD/strike from the same airwing. Can get closer therefore getting away from the two hours lost transit to station & return. Would still need AAR & probably AWAC, but much less demanding than filling CAP stns.

Sharkey Ward is also giving his opinion, which apart from the (surprisingly!?!) one-eyed statement on AAR, isn't a million miles away.

Fleet Air Arm Officers' Association, FAAOA News (http://www.fleetairarmoa.org/asp/news.asp?NewsItem=1247&Archived=0)

[ECMO1]

If the Italians decide to join they can provide SEAD with their HARM equipped Tornado ECR, same capability as Germany.

[just another jocky]

According to BBC Look East, GR4's from Marham will be providing SEAD and have been working with the French for 3 days at a North Sea range.

[draken55]

Now that the Colonel has declared a ceasefire, I would guess that many Nations on the point of offering HNS will stall to see how things pan out and/or get their politics sorted out.

Training may continue over the weekend just in case!

[Not_a_boffin]

ECM01 - had forgotten the Italian ECR. But didn't they abstain in the UN vote along with Frau Merkel?

Wasn't aware that Alarmed GR4 were fully SEAD capable against any IADS.

[AR1]

bet that will suprise the Libyan Air Force to see several Tiffies taxying in :p
They'll be ok provided they take Amex for the landing fees.

[BEagle]

Ward is still thinking in 1982 terms, I see:

The Harrier GR9 is extremely well equipped for ground target interdiction and, fitted as it is with the Sidewinder AIM-9L/M missile would provide an adequate fighter combat capability and deterrence against Libyan air force pilots.

Provided that the weather stays nice......

Although a Link16-enabled Sea Harrier FA2 force with AMRAAM and ASRAAM could certainly have provided a more than 'adequate' interceptor capability.

[OwnNav]

The Ardvarks from Upper Heyford nearly got him on Op Eldorado Canyon...

"The attacks failed to kill Gaddafi. Forewarned by a telephone call from Malta's Prime Minister, Karmenu Mifsud Bonnici, that unauthorized aircraft were flying over Maltese airspace heading south towards Tripoli, Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and his family rushed out of their residence in the Bab al-Azizia compound moments before the bombs dropped. According to Giulio Andreotti (the 42nd Prime Minister of Italy) and Abdel Rahman Shalgham (Libya's Foreign Minister from 2000 until 2009), Italian politician Bettino Craxi was the person who actually warned Gaddafi."

[AR1]

Worth bearing in mind that one of the F1-11's didn't come back.

[The Duke of Leinster]

orca - correct.

Charles de Gaulle to deploy on Monday according to certain sources.

[MG]

I'm only fixated on the Harrier/carrier issue because that's what the article mentioned!
Secondly, who says we can't launch Apache from a warship? We do still have Ocean and Lusty; even if they are alongside (I'm not sure as to their exact status) we have never lost, nor do we plan to lose, the capability to deploy a tailored air group from an LPD or equivalent.
Finally, just because Gaddafi as said he's going to have a ceasefire, do you think all of those likely to offer HNS will just fall into line and turn us away? Hmmm?!

Not a Boffin: some very good points re the need for a proper carrier and why we need a range of capabilities.
I've just read Sharky Ward's ditty. Why did he bother? We all know that if he was el Presidente, the Forces would all wear dark blue. Where did he get the availability of E3 from? And aren't SKaSACs in theatre? If so, how come they can be called on and not the E3s?? Is it time for his tablets yet?!

Now, all, can we just, for once, pretend that we don't have Harriers anymore and talk about what we do have? Capable Tornados and Typhoons.

[Neptunus Rex]

Gaddafi's so-called ceasefire will last as long as it takes to get his troops, tanks and artillery close to Benghazi. He would then launch a pre-emptive strike at dawn with ground-attack aircraft and everything else at his disposal. He will then call for a second cease-fire.

All the committed UN forces need to be close by, on immediate readiness and with a 24-hour CAP. Anything less just will not do.

[draken55]

MG

My earlier post mentioned that Ark has gone (no engines, six months to bring back, CIWS removed etc) and Illustrious is in refit. Ocean might be available. Ark had worked with Apache last Autumn Ocean had not.

The point about the Colonel's ceasefire was that it delayed the UN taking action. If he is daft enough to carry on he will be clobbered. If he sits tight or withdraws to his heartland will the UN still take pre-emptive action to degrade his AD capability anyway?

So whilst the threat of action has had an impact, he has thrown the ball back into our court with the risk of now having to maintain a NFZ for some time or try to force the issue on Regime change. Note that Germany has already said no thanks to any involvement as has Tunisia. And whilst Italy appears willing it wants it's MP's to give formal approval to the use of airfields. Spain and France are as far away as Cyprus. I have no idea what Malta is thinking but it might stay quiet until things pan out.

Lets just wait and see if Tornados and Typhoons depart and where they end up at;)

[Easy Street]

Part of a post I just made on the Libya NFZ thread:

At 7nm per minute:

Sigonella - Tripoli 280nm = 40 mins
Luqa - Tripoli 195nm = 27 mins
Sigonella or Luqa - Benghazi 330nm = 47 mins
Souda Bay - Benghazi 280nm = 40 mins

Given that Tornado used to take part in Op TELIC from Qatar, over 1 hour's flying time from Basra, you can see that land basing is perfectly feasible in this case. Operating in concert with Nimrod R1, it brings a decent SEAD capability to the table, as well as the overwatch and low-collateral precision attack currently being practised on Op HERRICK.Sorry, carrier fans - this conflict in no way proves that we need a carrier-borne attack capability. Especially when it was based on a short-ranged aircraft with no SEAD capability and no long-range weapons for IADS rollback.

Air defence is a different argument and being carrier-based would allow quicker regen times and a decent QRA location. But, as stated many times above, an AIM-9L- (or even ASRAAM-) equipped GR9 would not constitute a decent air defence capability when compared to any radar-equipped aircraft. Move along.

[mr fish]

one wonders if SENTINEL retirement will be given a second thought??

[MG]

Easy Street - thank you for that, you put the point well and certainly better than I attempted. This really is the wrong action with which to try to raise the carrier argument. Try another one Sharky, it doesn't work this time.

[downsizer]

Whats the problem with ALARM equiped GR4s? Or don't we do that anymore?

[draken55]

President Obama made it clear that the UK and France and others will be in the van on this one. How long might we have to provide a NFZ if the Colonel does as he is told? What impact could this have on the RAF?

With Libya land basing is feasible but as of now, we do not know where Tornado and Typhoon will be based with certainty? Could be right to assume Crete and Italy but we do not know for sure. Easy Streets flight times reflect the best case scenario.

There is no carrier argument. We are building two! The issue was would Ark Royal have been useful and in view of events can we still do without any Strike Carrier capability for a period of 10 years. In my view when deleting Ark Royal we took a risk and will get away with it this time. However looking ahead, Illustrious could offer more than just a platform for helos if at least some GR9's are reactivated for use in the intervening period with QE becoming available circa 2015 and POW with "cats and traps" later.

And please no more about how we are broke and Defence needs to share the pain. If HMG wants to play at the top table it now needs to find the cash! If it continues as if nothing has happened since October last we are simply asking for trouble.

[draken55]

MG

"do you think all of those likely to offer HNS will just fall into line and turn us away? Hmmm?!"

The Mediterranean island of Malta grants use of its air space to enforce a no-fly zone on Libya. Prime Minister Lawrence Gonzi however says that Malta "will not be used as a military base for the enforcement of the no-fly zone."

Italian MP's should vote to allow the use of bases but nothing is ever certain until it happens!

[MG]

There's still no compelling argument for the use of our retired carriers and their non-air defence Harriers to implement a no-fly zone. Yes, of course they would have been of use but they wouldn't have been essential and the job would have always needed HNS, regardless; the enablers were always going to be shore-based. The carrier argument, as I have said on every post here, is misplaced in this situation.

[Not_a_boffin]

The carrier argument is entirely relevant here. Just nothing to do with Ark, Lusty or Harriers.