MPL - the good, the bad (and the ugly)...

[Albanian Seahorse]

Hi everyone,

I'm trying to learn about the MPL... so I've made a list of the good and bad things I can think of, and maybe you can add to it??

If I'm wrong, or if you disagree, please say :)

The Good
- Training will be for an MPL in a specific aircraft, with a specific operator. Assuming the operator doesn't go bust, you'll have a job afterwards.
- From what I've read, training is more focused and relevant to the job you'll be doing after training (i.e. commercial airline pilot). So, you should be even better prepared for what you going to do (although I'm not implying that conventional training routes don't prepare you).
- After logging 1500 hours - around 2 years of working for an airline - you can convert the MPL to a full ATPL, and can therefore apply to any airline anywhere.

The Bad
- Because you're tied to one aircraft at one airline until you get your 1500 hours, the airline can use and abuse you all they want, cos you can't go elsewhere!
- If the airline goes bust before the MPL is issued, you will get a CPL/IR. So you must still pay to upgrade to a frozen ATPL, and no job guarantee.

Questions
- If the airline goes bust between getting your MPL and logging 1500 hours, you will be left with an £80,000 MPL tied to one aircraft at an airline that now doesn't exist. Is that you bugg@red??
- How employable are you with an ATPL gained from an ATPL + 1500 hours. Specifically, how employable compared to someone who trained for an ATPL the conventional way, who has also been employed for ~2 years (i.e. similar training cost, training time, time employed and hours logged)?

Please reply with your thoughts... yes you are answering my questions but I hope many more can get something useful from this thread:ok:

Thanks!

[jersey145]

If the airline goes bust before the MPL is issued, you will get a CPL/IR. So you must still pay to upgrade to a frozen ATPL, and no job guarantee.




Depends if the airline has an agreement with the FTO to fund the conversion. Good question to ask at the interview!


How employable are you with an ATPL gained from an ATPL + 1500 hours. Specifically, how employable compared to someone who trained for an ATPL the conventional way, who has also been employed for ~2 years (i.e. similar training cost, training time, time employed and hours logged)?




Depends on the employer. If you have to embark on a P2F TR to get a job with a new operator, then as long as you have the cash, they will want you, after all they can 'drop' you after line training should an 'unforseen crm or training issue' raise its head. They've got your money, you have the TR, but alas no job.
If an operator actually gives a damn who they employ and has rigourous standards, then the licence should make no difference. It will be you as a person and your competencies and traits they will be interested in. ie you as a person and operator. Number of hours maybe, depending on what they specify. A CAA issued licence is a CAA issued licence. If you can achieve the demanding starndards set out by the CAA to achieve your licence and TR, there should be no difference.

[CharlieFly]

As far aware and please anyone with more info please correct me, it's as follows.

The MPL is a course that currently you can only do with a 'sponsor' airline as you are type-rated within the course, and therefor need to know what aircraft you are going to be flying.

Should you sponsor airline drop you or go bust before the training, you need in you contract with the FTO that you can convert to the APLT course - OAA standard condition and should come with a refund as the MPL course is more expensive.

Should your airline drop you or go bust after completion of your course but before you have converted to an ATPL then you are still employable by any airline that flys the aircraft that you are type rated on as a first officer. You are not tied to the original sponsor airline as you payed for the course.

once you have an ATPL you are as qualified as if you have done the CPL/IR and therefor could go and fly a single pilot aircraft subject to relevant type rating.

[stuckgear]

after all they can 'drop' you after line training should an 'unforseen crm or training issue' raise its head. They've got your money, you have the TR, but alas no job


maybe drop you into a hold pool of MPL's to be taken up as and when you are needed?


- After logging 1500 hours - around 2 years of working for an airline - you can convert the MPL to a full ATPL, and can therefore apply to any airline anywhere.



what guarantees of annual utlisation will you be getting ?

[zondaracer]

- After logging 1500 hours - around 2 years of working for an airline - you can convert the MPL to a full ATPL, and can therefore apply to any airline anywhere.

The Bad
- Because you're tied to one aircraft at one airline until you get your 1500 hours, the airline can use and abuse you all they want, cos you can't go elsewhere!


Some airlines may have you locked in on a contract after doing MPL for much longer than 2 years and you may end up well beyond 1500hrs, or worse yet (undoubtedly but possibly) less than 1500hrs. Check the contract.

Another bad that I can think about is the entire lack of P1/PIC experience

[Superpilot]

Are you saying that a MPL pilot would not be able to log P1/US time?

[zondaracer]

I wasn't referring to P1/US. You can still get that, but you still need 100hrs of real PIC, not P1/US, to get your ATPL

[Albanian Seahorse]

Thanks for your replies :)

A couple of points I have then...

what guarantees of annual utlisation will you be getting ?

I don't know - I guess no guarantee - but I understand ~750 hrs annually is typical (???) and it would surely be in the interest of the airline to use you as much as possible.

Another bad that I can think about is the entire lack of P1/PIC experience

I wasn't referring to P1/US. You can still get that, but you still need 100hrs of real PIC, not P1/US, to get your ATPL

Indeed this is true, and the ATPL issued after reaching 1500 hrs is only valid for multi-crew aircraft. Which leads me nicely to a question I forgot to ask in the first place: would this limit you in any way? I can't think of a single commercial pilot job which isn't multi-crew. But, just for examples sake... say you already had >100 hrs P1 SEP, or were prepared to pay for this. Would this restriction be lifted?

Should your airline drop you or go bust after completion of your course but before you have converted to an ATPL then you are still employable by any airline that flys the aircraft that you are type rated on as a first officer. You are not tied to the original sponsor airline as you payed for the course.

Although you have no ties, I understand that the MPL training is focused around the operating practices of the sponser airline. And whilst I can't imagine that much variation between operators, would this be considered a disadvantage? Or is it the case that you were CAA certified before, so you're as good as anybody, and I'm just splitting hairs here?

And finally, I can certainly see a need to go through the small print carefully before signing anything!

Thanks for your help everyone :ok:

[MJR]

As a far as I am aware P1/US time can only be logged on completion of a successful flight test.

With regard to flying multi-crew aircraft as an FO all time is P2.

[zondaracer]

Seahorse, an ATPL is Specifically to act as captain/commander/pic/p1 for multicrew transport operations. There are single pilot Commercial ops, albeit more common in the US, but an MPL alone wouldn't suffice. Examples include small cargo, aerial firefighting, crop dusting, air taxi, sight seeing flights, skydive ops, banner towing, and other jobs considered aerial work as there are too many to list.

[Superpilot]

Guys, you're totally out of it. A FO flying a multi-crew aircraft can log all time as P1/US where they are the PF, providing that entry is signed by the P1 or the Chief Pilot certifies the logbook confirming all P1/US time.

You can still get that, but you still need 100hrs of real PIC, not P1/US, to get your ATPL


100 hours P1 is a requirement to commence a CPL training course, so not really one to worry about.

[zondaracer]

Superpilot, I hear what you are saying but we are not talking about CPL/IR, we are talking about MPL. I don't know the ins and outs of the MPL but how many hours PIC/P1 does one have at completion of the MPL?

Also, coming from the US, I'm used to seeing guys with several hundred hours of PIC and 800 (soon to be 1500) hrs before going to a regional airline. That's what I mean by real PIC, single pilot night IFR etc...

[BigGrecian]

I can't think of a single commercial pilot job which isn't multi-crew

That's very short sighted of you there are hundreds of single pilot commercial flying jobs!

Trouble is that most people consider commercial flying to only be airlines....which it isn't.

Honestly the problem might be long term, single pilot jets have all ready come and many more will come well within many young wannabes pilot's lifetime.

I wonder what transition arrangements will be available for multi crew licence holders only...

[zondaracer]

BigGrecian, i think your post is spot on. How many times have we heard lately about not just single pilot jets, but single pilot AIRLINERS. Embraer is working on it, and Ryanair mentioned it. Will it become a reality? When will it become a reality? I don't know, but if and when it does, what kind of job outlook is there for a MPL holder on a single pilot jet?

(for the record, I firmly believe in two pilot aircraft airliners)

[stuckgear]

it may be interesting to consider how carriers under other regulatory bodies may accept a MPL/ATPL conversion. After these guys get their 1500 hours in two years [sic] and then start look at career development prospects in other countries (ME/Asia etc).

[jersey145]

Well EK has a success rate of only 42% in terms of pilots being offered enployment. Figures circa 42% from their roadshow. So thats less than one in two anyway. What are they asking for? ATPL 2500hours and at the mo on aircraft above 30 tons. On the application you need to fill in FTO exam pass % and date or first? IR. well any prevoius MPL holder who has an ATPL can fill those in with accurate answers when the time comes. Again, they have an ATPL, thats what the airline wants. I don't see them saying no to the MPL anywhere. Apart from the fact they want an ATPL. So post 1500 with the LST done and all the numbers in the correct CAA boxes.... hey presto!

Interesting that both EK and QR have cadets at a certain FTO who provide ab-initio training for them, and also do MPL training for a certain UK airline. But if they wanted to distance themselves from the MPL activly, what are they doing there? answer... they like the product of the training. Oh and its the same trainers that instruct MPL......

For any wannabe reading...pilots don't like change or stuff that is new. Always been that way, not going to chance as far as I can see. I have flown for a while with a very vocal opponent to the MPL. Now he loves, well sees the benefit, of the training system. He is a convert. All that talk of off-loading them for being a breach of safety....yawn...was fun listening to him go off on one though. I mean if airlines want 200 hour ab-initios..............why not make the training relevant.

I will say it again....do your research first......oh and Pprune should always be taken with a large pinch of salt. Its a great place to vent ones anger.

More details of MPL on the GAPAN site. look for the document." so you want to be a pilot".

[Adios]

Jersey145,

No, it is not "the same trainers" teaching MPL as CPL/IR. An FI must have 500 hours multi-pilot flying experience to instruct MPL. That knocks out many very good IR instructors at the big FTOs. Oxford ran an advert for MPL instructors when they started the Flybe scheme and I'll bet you'll see another advert in 6-12 months when they get the larger EZ scheme underway.

[Swede80]

The MPL is only restricted to the sponsor airline until you are line cheked. That means that after line check (normally 40 sectors), you can switch airline or type all you want.

[onebyone]

100 hours P1 is a requirement to commence a CPL training course, so not really one to worry about.

Just thought i'd mention that this is not the case with JAA CPL. According to JAR-FCL 1.160 and 1.165 the requirement is 70 hours PIC/SPIC, which means you'd need a bit more PIC hours to get your ATPL license (or even B737 rating). I' got my CPL license with 75h PIC, and i'm currently building hours to get to 100h minimum.

[Albanian Seahorse]

Once again, thanks for all the input.

First, apologies for my ignorance about single pilot commercial flying...every day's a school day :}

The general opinion seems to be that once you have an ATPL, that's it. It doesn't matter what route was taken, if you've ticked all the boxes, you're as qualified as anyone else is. Certainly makes sense.

But, before I lay that one to rest, one final question: Imagine you go for a job, and you're competing against an identical candidate. You both have ATPLs and similar hours/backgrounds. Only difference is he trained the traditional way, and you trained the MPL way. Would anyone expect any backdoor prejudice for/against you, the MPL trained candidate?

What I have in mind when I ask this is the sort from prejudice you get by UK employers over which university a candidate attended. Graduates from Oxford and Cambridge are seen preferentially to identical candidates with the same qualification, but from a different uni, even though they are technically qualified to the same level. I hope you get my point.

Otherwise, I'm only confused by one further thing: it's the talk about hours PIC/P1/US. Presumably, to convert an MPL to ATPL, it doesn't matter what those hours are, because the ATPL will have a multi-pilot restriction?? Or have I got that wrong??

And finally, what hours requirement would be needed to lift that restriction?? And with that restriction lifted, are you then left with an unrestricted ATPL, and free to apply for an pilot's job anywhere? (Subject to the appropriate type ratings etc etc)

Thanks in advance... :ok: