Tornado F3: 25 Years of Air Defence

[BEagle]

I'm just reading Squadron Prints' excellent new book Tornado F3: 25 Years of Air Defence. Little did I realise how astonishingly capable this weapons system has become, particularly with Link16, AMRAAM, ASRAAM and the skills of the aircrews employing the jet to its best advantage.

Regrettably there will always be spotters who don't understand that the ability to fly 9G turns or ponce around at airshows have little bearing on the capability of a pure air defence weapon system.... Or those who think the jet is still lumbered with Blue Circle radar and SkyFlash.

With uncertainty still ongoing in Bahrain and Libya, surely some government brain cell must realise that retiring the highly effective F3 would be the height of folly at such a turbulent time?

We'd almost retired the Vulcan in 1982 before we realised that we still needed it - don't let the same thing happen with the truly excellent F3!

Incidentally, a £2 contribution from every sale of the book goes to the RAF Association's Wings Appeal :ok::ok: !

[EOSM37]

Little did I realise how astonishingly capable this weapons system has become


.....................................http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing021.gif

[F3sRBest]

I'll be getting my copy! Yes, it's not a Combat Airshow jet but it actually became one of the best weapon systems (note systems not ac!) that we had. And am proud to have been a part of some of that.

[sooms]

Beagle,

Bit late now I'm afraid, I think most of them are already bean tins or razor blades..:{

[Finningley Boy]

I'll be getting my copy! Yes, it's not a Combat Airshow jet but it actually became one of the best weapon systems (note systems not ac!) that we had. And am proud to have been a part of some of that.


Personally, I always thought it a quite scintillating airshow performer. Highlights though, rather than the solo slots, are the formations at Coningsby and Leuchars. The formation display at Leuchars B.O.B. in 1995, sticks in the mind particularly, largely due to the high speed zoom climb finale. Solo in one direction, main formation of 4, the other way!!:ok:

FB:)

[BEagle]

sooms, from Hansard:

European Fighter Aircraft

Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what his most recent estimate is of the date on which the RAF Typhoon will take over responsibility for Quick Reaction Alert from the RAF Tornado. [27578]

Nick Harvey: Typhoon already undertakes Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) duties at RAF Coningsby and in the Falkland Islands. On current plans Typhoon will begin to take up QRA duties at RAF Leuchars, in conjunction with Tornado F3, during December 2010 and will take over complete responsibility in April 2011 when Tornado F3 retires from service.



Surely even the mononeuronic Fox must realise that the Libyan situation demands a rethink at this late stage?

I've just been reading the part about the QWI course - WTF is the RAF going to do with all the highly trained QWI(AD) WSOs now that Typhoon is going to be the only air defence asset left?

[Tourist]

Astonishingly capable compared to what!?

Compared to how it started I suppose....

It is all very well to mention it's AMRAAM etc, but if you can't get above airliners without a zoom climb, then you are a bit ****e!

[glad rag]

A well, bye, bye to the flick knife :(

[BEagle]

It is all very well to mention it's AMRAAM etc, but if you can't get above airliners without a zoom climb, then you are a bit ****e!

What complete and utter rubbish. But it's the sort of ill-informed drivel which has constantly bedevilled the F3's reputation.

[F3sRBest]

Tourist....... please note....


Regrettably there will always be spotters who don't understand that the ability to fly 9G turns or ponce around at airshows have little bearing on the capability of a pure air defence weapon system....

;)

[Tourist]

I do, however, know just how spacky they are when trying to come and embellish..........;)

[F3sRBest]

embellish?

Care to embellish?

Don't suppose you were in 1Gp in early 03 were you? ;)

[soddim]

Having flown or worked with the F3 from its' inception until almost its' demise and experienced the weapons system and performance issues from blue circle through many radar and weapons upgrades I would like to reassure Tourist and any other misinformed readers that I would not have liked to fight against an F3 for real in any other aircraft during the last few years.

That is not to state it is the best AD aircraft but it is now certainly a very capable one.

[Sandy Parts]

bit worrying when we offered up 'embellish' and were asked "where are you?" perhaps not the stretched MRCA's fault - thought somebody was keeping an eye on UK airspace?...

[Out Of Trim]

Sadly BEagle,

I fear our government has no fuctioning brain cells left. Therefore, they will probably try and deploy the capability just after they've been scrapped.

On their current form and also on the form of the last useless government; I'm not holding my breath! :(

[Tourist]

I honestly never thought I'd see the day when people on pprune would actually have departed so far from reality as to try to pretend that the F3 is good. It may have it's good points, but the simple fact is that the airframe does matter otherwise we would just stick weapons on a c130 and be done with it.

In particular, soddim, are you mental?
"I would not have like to fight against the F3 for real in any other aircraft during the last few years"

Are you seriously suggesting that if you had your choice of aircraft, the F3 would be it?
F22? F15? Latest su27 variant? F18? Any of the European toys?

One of us is mental, and I just checked and I appear to have no pencils up my nose.

[ghostnav]

Tourist - do us all a favour and go play with your teddy bears!

The F3 has provided outstanding service to this nation. It has defended it from the USSR and any terrorist who might have decided to use an airliner as a bomb. It has also done amazing service in the FI - perhaps you have never been there!

It was the FIRST UK aircraft into Saudi Arabia in 1990 and its capability now is much beyond that it was designed for.

Your childish comments reflect your level of intellect and as many of my colleagues died flying the damn thing, I will treat any future comments you make on this forum with contempt.

[thunderbird7]

...and also had to ask the Russian Knights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Knights) to descend to the F3's service ceiling so they could intercept them when they came to the UK for the first time, if I remember correctly. :rolleyes:

First to the Gulf? More haste less speed :)

[Geehovah]

Oh so much uninformed comment

In an air defence aircraft you need a capable weapons sytem, a good long range missile and decent snap up capability. More speed means more range. The F3 does speed well.

If you have a radar that now works, AMRAAM, good SA from JTIDS and a back up IR weapon second to none, you have a capable platform. Even F22 doesn't get into a knife fight in a phone box! You can still shadow an aircraft at 60k from 40k if needed.

If we'd had the cash/vision to fit HMS when it was available we'd have had an even more capable platform. The days of blue circle were long gone in 1990!

Maybe anyone posting in this thread shoud admit whether they have ever flown an AD aircraft. At least that way we sort the wheat from the chaff.

Its a shame even now the aircraft is retiring it cant throw off the 1980s myths.

[Rigga]

Mind the door on your way out.

[Geehovah]

First to the Gulf? More haste less speed Having been involved with the first deployment I can reassure you that the reason the F3 was sent rather than the F4 was because it had a more capable weapons system. I also say that as an ex F4 Nav. There was, indeed much haste to bring it up to speed but we deployed a jet able to hold its own. Back-stop CAP was not glamourous but would have been crucial had Iraq not capitulated.

[Ali Barber]

I used to demo rad alt height hold as a poor man's GR version in the absence of NVGs to follow the GRs in on an escort job. The bunt downwards was a bit eye opening, but so was the pitch up. Obviously lacked credibility in a turning environment, but was an example of thinking outside the box (bullsh1t business term). Don't know what the final tactics were, but Link 16 picture, AMRAAM equipped, escorting GRs as low as they were, perhaps mixed in the formation. Could be an eye opener for an aggressor. It sucked when it came into service, but going out, it proved its worth.

[Tourist]

ghostnav

Laughable.

Defended against the USSR!!!??
Oh yes? how many did you shoot down?

FI?, a lot more time there than anyone else on this website.

And your comment re your friends dying makes you beneath contempt in my book. We have all lost friends, but most don't try to make forum capital from it you cnut.

Geehovah
Happy to admit that I have never been AD, but I am aware of simple physics.
The worry is that the F3 folks think that AD is something to do with shadowing. Since that is all the F3 has ever done, I suppose it's natural that you have forgotten what it is actually for.
Killing from 20K below is a mite trickier, what with physics playing their part.
Never fight from the bottom of a hill. It has been true since neanderthal times, and is still true.

Go on, somebody tell me again that it is better than an F22 or F15.

[BEagle]

If you're referring to the occasion when 2 x Fulcrum flew to Farnborough, thunderbird7, then you're talking almost as much bolleaux as tourist - who clearly hasn't the faintest idea about air defence... If 'sticking wepaons on' an inappropriate air platform is the fishead way, then thank heavens they don't have anything other than helicopters to bugger about with these days.

The MiG 29 event occurred on 30 Aug 1988; the politicians had decided that the Fulcrums had to be escorted into Farnborough, so the plan was for a VC10K to carry the journos to film the event as the F3s joined with the MiGs. Due to the limited speed range of the VC10K, the max IAS permitted was relatively low and we also needed to maximise the time available for the journos to do their stuff...

We joined up with our F3s, then turned in to escort Anatoli and his wingman. All went fine, except that one F3 wouldn't get out of the b£oody way and as a result it was quite difficult to position the VC10K in such a position that the BBC, ITN, UP, API, TASS and Flight could get their shots. It was also fairly obvious that the F3 leader had little experience of leading such a mixed formation down through the Ambers and over to Farnborough. We had to ease out as he led us all into cloud :hmm: (the Russians had earlier rejected the idea of the VC10K being in close formation), so then had to catch them again once we broke out below...

But the press got their photos and we made the lead story on the 6 o'clock news, so it was a DCO as far as we were concerned. And having Janice Lowe from Flight squirming against my shoulder to get her shots was...rather nice :ok: - and she sorted us out with some Filofaxes (this was the 1980s...) and hosting in the Flight chalet when we later went to the show!

[Tourist]

Ali

No aircraft that has never done it's job can be said to have "proved its worth"

Go on then BEagle, instruct me on the error of my ways. Tell me how the world is indeed banana shaped......:rolleyes:

At least the FAA has always known that our aircraft are mostly ****e with occasional good aspects. Anything else is just delusional in the UK forces, though at least more recently when a Typhoon comes to embelish you don't get bored waiting..............

[BlindWingy]

Wrong. In 25 years nobody had a go at us, not even the Argies. An excellent deterrent and an excellent success.

[thunderbird7]

If you're referring to the occasion when 2 x Fulcrum flew to Farnborough, thunderbird7, then you're talking almost as much bolleaux as tourist..

Maybe, ;) but it was worth a cheap shot! :rolleyes:

Why let the facts from someone involved get in the way of a good story? :)

[Geehovah]

Geehovah
Happy to admit that I have never been AD, but I am aware of simple physics.
The worry is that the F3 folks think that AD is something to do with shadowing. Since that is all the F3 has ever done, I suppose it's natural that you have forgotten what it is actually for.
Killing from 20K below is a mite trickier, what with physics playing their part.
Never fight from the bottom of a hill. It has been true since neanderthal times, and is still true.

I guess you just said a little too much to retain credibility.

[Tourist]

Go on then, explain my error.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

"20 years of proudly holding our fire"

(or so it says on the F3 on the 78 Sqn/1564 Flt Chuff Chart)

:E

[Lima Juliet]

Tourist

The worry is that the F3 folks think that AD is something to do with shadowing. Since that is all the F3 has ever done, I suppose it's natural that you have forgotten what it is actually for.

Back in Oct/Nov 99 I locked up an Iraqi MiG declared 'hostile' on JTIDS just inside the no-fly zone about 5 miles from the SkyFlash Launch Success Zone (LSZ). Late Arm was made live and next action was to ditch the tanks when the MiG turned around and went back over the line - my LSZ and excitement shrinking with it! Did the F3 do it's job that day? You bet, sweetlips...and the RIVET JOINT and E3 High Value Assets (HVAs) they were were trying so very hard to shoot down were never threatened. Saddam even rewarded one of his MiG drivers a pair of Silver Pistols for getting close to some HVAs on a previous sortie - so the stakes were high during Op Southern Watch right up to Op Telic in 2003.

This sortie was not unusual and you be wise to remember that not 1 friendly aircraft has been lost whilst F3 has been conducting Offensive Counter Air (sweep or escort) during it's Service; just because it never brought down an enemy aircraft is not a measure of failure in Air Defence (the clue is in the 2nd word!).

Anyway, BEagle, I agree with you, it is an excellent book that I will be proud to show my Grandchildren in 20 or so years time to say "this is what Gramps did". See you at the Cenotaph in my bowler hat in 10 years time and I'll buy you a beer for all the go-go juice you pumped into my aluminium pursuit ship over Saudi, the Adriatic and the Falklands in the past :D

Aye

LJ

[frodo_monkey]

Happy to admit that I have never been AD, but I am aware of simple physics.
The worry is that the F3 folks think that AD is something to do with shadowing. Since that is all the F3 has ever done, I suppose it's natural that you have forgotten what it is actually for.
Killing from 20K below is a mite trickier, what with physics playing their part.
Never fight from the bottom of a hill. It has been true since neanderthal times, and is still true.

Go on, somebody tell me again that it is better than an F22 or F15.

No one is trying to say that it out-turns an F22 or F15, you mong! The point others are trying to make is that a good (eventually, massive teething issues notwithstanding) weapons system made it possible for you to enter a fight with more SA than the other guy, and SA is the difference between winning and losing in a fight...

And you obviously don't know simple physics if you don't think you could get a kill from 20k below the other guy! Its certainly more difficult, but is possible. Best you retire to a Cockers P and reminisce about when the FAA had aircraft :}

[Lima Juliet]

Also, I've been above Block 5 in a F3 without a pressure jerkin (very stupid if the canopy pops or both engines flame out) and you don't need to 'zoom climb' to get to Block 4 in the old girl above .85M (which happens to be above most airliners between FL340 and FL390) - that was with no tanks and a 2x2 load out and a gun. I remember a Flt Cdr (who did not remain one for long) going to Block 6 having gone a bit mad as runner up in the Thrust SSC competition to become its driver (instead it went to the equally mad "dead dog"!) - the engines did "complain a bit" on that particular sortie!!!

But I believe I may be entering the realms of "protesting too much", so I'll STFU and invite you to do the same.

LJ

[BEagle]

Leon, I would be happy to accept the beer!

I recall the first AAR trips with the F2 - not very inspiring. Particularly when we did a trial with one in 4-tank fit at FL150 and found that 20 deg AoB was a mite excessive. Other trials supporting the Warton Lightning and Tornado ADV prototype once caused the Lightning mate to remark "I'm not sure who's supposed to be fighter and who's supposed to be the target!". But things moved forward apace and the true ace in the pack was Link16. As Chris Colville (a squire and a gent) remarked, it was "The biggest advance in air defence since radar".

I managed to persuade 'Them' to approve a UOR for the VC10K and TriStar to be fitted with Link16 for OP. ENGADINE in 1999 and it worked exactly as advertised. But we didn't have enough jets fitted with it, unfortunately - although I did once fly a VC10K3 with Link16 and serviceable RWR, plus a navigator who was capable enough to use it. Even over the North Sea, the extra SA was astonishing and we were still watching a fight going on when we were on final approach to Brize (though we were on conditional radio silence, so passive only!). Link16 used with ASRAAM will lead to a totally silent death for many an opponent, given clever tactics from the E-3D - and a BVR shot with AMRAAM even more so.

The lack of knowledge about other peoples' capabilities has always been a problem within the non-FJ community. After my tour on the tin triangle, I realised that much of what we thought would have defeated a semi-active AAM was in fact a load of utter nonsense - we didn't even know about beam look-up firings or search attacks and thought that a fighter had to lock-on to be able to fire.... Most of us thought that being able to out turn a threat was all there was to it...:\

A pity that the RN gave up the FA2 SHAR - that was another top interceptor and with Link16 and a full AAM fit would certainly have been a highly capable fleet defence interceptor, if a little short-legged. Whereas the GR9 was virtually useless as an interceptor.

Perhaps someone will see the sense of bugging out of the F-35 programme and will instead press for the acquisition of F-18E/F/G for the RN's cocktail party carriers?

BTW, I think I know the chap who lost out to Dead Dog in his attempt to secure the Thrust SSC seat. Didn't Bastard Bill try to hang him for busting the RtoS after that zoom climb? Until someone happened to ask whether the Lightning RtoS had included reheat-rotation take-offs in Bastard Bill's day - whereupon it all went rather quiet....:rolleyes:

[Lima Juliet]

BEagle

Your recollection of BB is correct but the silence was not as deafening as it was for the Fighting Cocks Flt Cdr's tonka engines!!! :eek:

You can hold me to that beer in 2021 (or sooner!)

LJ

[CrazyMonkey]

I have been red air for the F3, albeit not so recently, so I am bemused somewhat at what Tourist writes when he appears to have no credibility in the AD role (as he admits). Sure, the F3 flies a profile that requires it to get in block 4 at decent speed before it can ID but that doesn't seem too different to any F-jet I've towed for (including US).

As for warfighting, it did its job v well as history tells. Why would an Mig or export Mirage ever want to challenge an F3? It wouldn't because it'd lose. Comparing it with an F22...silly really, two different beasts, of different generations and also on the same side, Duh! Wake up Tourist, you admittedly sound like a knob who has no AD background or understanding of the threat. Jealous maybe? Compared to a Russian Mig, are you out of your mind? Your views are about 25 years out of date, when the Tornado ADV had no radar, JTIDS or long range BVR missile capability; it demonstrates your naivety.

Tourist, if I have ever served with you, I am embarrassed at having done so. Your lack knowledge of control of the air power or general air power awareness indicates a prejudiced point of view that I would associate with a novice. The scary thing is, some people reading this may think you know what you are talking about...

...I'll happily buy the book and recognise the great service the F3 has performed over the last 25 years. The Typhoon, I am sure, will perform equally as well.

Monkey

[Tourist]

Crazy monkey

Exactly where have I compared it to a Mig?
Su27 recent variants yes, and it is sadly lacking.

You say silly to compare it to an F22 because it is a different generation, but that is exactly what I was objecting to. It is being suggested that for the last few years it has really come good.
No it hasn't, because things have moved on, and in the last few years the competition has vastly outstripped it.
It was a dog when created, and it is now just what it should have been then, but too late.

If it is as good as you all say, then stop wasting money on this Typoon which you seem to suggest is uneccessary if F3 is a winner, or accept that it is dross that only third world nations would be impressed by.

The proof is always in the export customers.
Especially ones that don't require a bribe............
Exactly how many countries are sitting back saying "Oh if only we could afford the F3"

Frodo Monkey

Where did I talk about turning with an F15?
I am talking about the whole package. Name one single aspect where the modern F3 is superior to a modern F15, let alone an F22.

Re fighting from 20K below, I never said it was impossible, but you are obviously at a massive disadvantage, as you perfectly well know, and that is a crap way to start a fight.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Deleted because I do not wish to demean myself!

[soddim]

Tourist you are a complete ass.

I tried to give you first hand an opinion from one who has flown the aircraft for 25 years and all you could do was use your uninformed opinion to call me 'mental'

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

[Politely_amused]

If anyone ever wanted to see how far the RAF jet community had disappeared up its own ass.... then look no further.

:ugh:

[soddim]

And what, I ask, Politely_Amused is your experience of AD?

[bakseetblatherer]

LOL a funny thread derail, the hook was flung and many bit>
Is a good book, and an interesting read. Well done to all you guys that contributed... even happier my ugly mug was in a couple of times ;)

[Tourist]

I am enjoying the incongruity of being told that I don't know what I am talking about by members of the RAF AD community.

I am RN. You know, that service that has been shooting down enemy aircraft since WW2 on a regular basis? And I am not just talking about Harriers. The fleet has many people who have actually shot down aircraft from ships.

The RAF helicopter guys have been doing their thing week in week out for real since they were set up. They know their capabilities. Not what they think they can do, but what they can actually do.
The AT fleet ditto.
The GR fleet ditto
The Rocks have also spent the last few years getting themselves very dirty.

The AD fleet has never, ever actually found out if it can do what all the sims and exercises make them think they can do. No missile has left a rail in anger. Those that actually do their jobs know that reality and exercises are very different.
You are the guys that do not know what you are talking about.
Nothing in well over half a century, and you talk about defending us from the USSR!!!

First I am told that the airframe limitations are unimportant due to the combat systems, then when I suggest using a C130 I am told that it does, in fact, matter.
I am told that the F3 is the match for anything out there, but everyone says we need Typhoon.

You are embarassing yourselves.

[handleturning]

If this thread was 'F3 best air superiority fighter in the world' then I might understand the responses. However, Beagle started a thread about a book that's been published to mark the aircraft going out of service.

At the end of the day, whatever your views on the platform a lot of good blokes (colleagues of most of us on here) dedicated many years (and, as always, their lives in some cases) to making the best use of poor procurement by MOD.

Maybe if you don't have a positive input to make you should show a little respect and leave this thread to those who do.

[F3sRBest]

Tourist,

This started as a harmless renminiscing thread by BEagle which those of us with fond memories of the F3 werehapy to share and you have completely spoiled it. Please go and take your teddies somewhere else.

You clearly haove no concept of the integration of military capability to deliver an effect through a weapon SYSTEM and not just a fancy platform.

[F3sRBest]

snap to handleturning lol :D

[dakkg651]

Tourist.

It wasn't in anger, I know, but an RAFG Phantom did get a genuine AIM9 kill during the Falklands War!

[BEagle]

You are embarassing yourselves.

No, it is YOU who is an embarrassment to your service. You clearly have no understanding whatsoever about the deterrent value of the AD force and are just showing yourself to be a complete ignoramus.

Back to the thread topic, the quality of this book is excellent. I've just read the section about Red Flag and the kill ratios obtained by the F3 force against the best the USAF had to offer were exceptionally good.

[Wrathmonk]

Slight thread drift perhaps but I have amended (in bold) Tourists earlier statement to read :

The Vanguard submarine fleet has never, ever actually found out if it can do what all the sims and exercises make them think they can do. No missile has left a rail in anger. Those that actually do their jobs know that reality and exercises are very different.


Surely it's all about deterrence - be it AD/QRA or big buckets of sunshine. I'd rather have a big stick and not have to use it than try to fight with a small one.

[typerated]

I always found it interesting that the Germans upgraded the Phantom when we replaced our F4s with the F3.
Somewhat ironically it seems that the Luftwaffe F4s might just outlast our last F3s.

While acknowledging that the F3 became a potent machine I wonder if we would be saying goodbye to RAF F-15Cs if we had bought them in the 80s?

[glad rag]

Excellent Wraithmonk :D

As an ex O's bloke, I always appreciated the subtle irony of the flash's [most probable] homing method in actual use.
Still makes me smile when you read some of the stuff being posted by so called "knowledgeable" posters..

[flighthappens]

I've just read the section about Red Flag and the kill ratios obtained by the F3 force against the best the USAF had to offer were exceptionally good.

Obviously you are aware that at RF there are aggressors who play the job of the bad guys. Part of their role is to not use the full capabilities of their platform but to provide the most accurate representation of threat systems.:ok:

So to say it is against the best the USAF had to offer is misleading at best and willful misrepresentation at worst.:= Some of the Best, yes, but with playing a game by a very different set of rules to what they would choose...

Thats not to say that an F3 cant do a good job, from what I have heard, good radar, relatively quick, AIM120 and AIM132, Link16 = happy days...

[Cows getting bigger]

Deci ACMI '88-89ish. The scenario, a bunch of GRs doing a low level run with F2s providing top cover/escort. The opposition is a package of F15s loitering somewhere in the stratosphere.

Loooootenant Chuck watching the carnage in the ACMI - "Geee, its raining F15" :)

Chuck was right, a small number of GRs got through whilst the entire F2 package was sacrificed.

Roll on a few years to a similar scenario. A bit of learning has taken place, the CONOPS has evolved and the RAF now have F3s. Looooootenant Chuck's humour is nowhere to be seen.

For those of us who have been around a short while, it is fair to say that the F3 was better than the F4 and the Typhoon is somewhat better than both. Someone else hit the nail squarely on the head - as part of the system the F3 was a rather important and capable cog.

[Tourist]

Wrathmonk

Fair point, but modified slightly by the fact that all the bombers from all the nations are in the same boat.
Plus of course Trident is a big stick, and the F3 is at best a limp twig.

Honestly, you'd think I had slagged off the aircrew not the aircraft from the vitriol I have received!

[Sandy Wings]

The F3 took it's time to develop and this was for many reasons, but as it retires, it is a capable AD platform. I will raise a glass to it and enjoy this well informed book by the guys at Squadron Prints.
:D
:ok:

[Heathrow Harry]

Not wishing to pour oil onto a fire but when did the RAF last shoot down an aircraft?

I have a nasty feeling it was 1945.....................

(and the guys who were in Korea were flying with the US or the Oztralian's)

[rab-k]

If it wasn't for our politico-military masters it would've been back in 1991.

IIRC an F3 about to bounce an IQAF MIG had to 'yield' to a Saudi F3/F15 (I forget which) driver whose being attributed the 'Kill' was seen to be of greater political value in terms of the 'coalition'.

From Wikipedia

The Tornado ADV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado_ADV) has been criticised for its lack of "true" fighter performance. It is true that the Tornado does not have the close combat performance of an aircraft such as the F-16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16). However, it was designed as an interceptor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interceptor_aircraft) rather than as an air superiority fighter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_superiority_fighter). Its primary purpose was to carry a large number of missiles and fly them far from base over the North Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea) and Northern Atlantic; once on station it needed to have good endurance, and then be able to engage and destroy targets at long range. These targets were envisaged to be formations of Soviet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) bomber aircraft, the engagement of which would not have required significant air combat manoeuvrability. For this reason, dogfighting capabilities would always be a secondary consideration.

[Big Tudor]

when did the RAF last shoot down an aircraft?

Being pedantic here, 25th May 1982. Granted, it was another RAF aircraft.

[Heathrow Harry]

it is amazing when you think about how much we've spent on ADGB over 65 years

[Red Line Entry]

rab-k,

think you'll find that's an urban myth. The F3s went for anything that they had a chance for - blew off 18 drop tanks in all so it's a pity that they never got close enough to get a missile off the rail.

[rab-k]

Magic Mushroom (6th Dec 2004, 16:39)

Navaleye,
You're correct. The RAF F3 had committed and was about to engage when it was hauled off to enable a Saudi F-15 to engage the target for 'political reasons'. I know 2 of the F3 aircrew involved (one of whom is now on E-3Ds) and they were exceptionally frustrated as they were in a far better firing position and then the Saudi almost missed the engagement!!
Regards,
M2(Link (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/154569-last-raf-kill.html) to past thread)

Same thread also mentions last RAF a/a kill as being that of Fg Off Tim McElhaw of 208 Sqn on 22 May 1948, who shot down two Egyptian AF Spitfires which had attacked an RAF base having mistaken it for an Israeli one. (McElhaw was also in a Spit').

thread-drift...:=

[Cows getting bigger]

when did the RAF last shoot down an aircraft?
Being pedantic here, 25th May 1982. Granted, it was another RAF aircraft.

Being really pedantic here, 63 Sqn RAF (Regiment) claimed an Argentinian Dagger kill on 29 May 1982. ;)

[moggiee]

Magic Mushroom (6th Dec 2004, 16:39)

Navaleye,
You're correct. The RAF F3 had committed and was about to engage when it was hauled off to enable a Saudi F-15 to engage the target for 'political reasons'. I know 2 of the F3 aircrew involved (one of whom is now on E-3Ds) and they were exceptionally frustrated as they were in a far better firing position and then the Saudi almost missed the engagement!!
Regards,
M2
I was stationed at a certain North Yorks F3 base during GW1 and my boss was out there on the F3. He also related that exact same story to me when he came back - although I can't be certain if he was the driver of the aircraft in question.

[Tourist]

I am willing to accept that this is true.

In 25 yrs, and supported by only the largest and most powerful deployment of air power ever seen from a coalition of most of the west, the F3 nearly managed to shoot down one third world aircraft.

That's a hell of a record, money well spent:rolleyes:

[Geehovah]

I am enjoying the incongruity of being told that I don't know what I am talking about by members of the RAF AD community.

I am RN. You know, that service that has been shooting down enemy aircraft since WW2 on a regular basis? And I am not just talking about Harriers. The fleet has many people who have actually shot down aircraft from ships. Tourist, you beat me. I had you down as a rather vocal first tourist spouting the crewroom banter.
Can I offer a word of advice from someone who may have seen a few more scenarios than you and has looked closely at the campaign in the South Atlantic? .......... And might I add, that includes experience of contingency missions in the Falklands campaign and a couple of tours down there. Put your name down for a course at the AWC. That way when you offer comment on the Forum on RAF capability, it may be informed by fact and not myth.

[theonewhoknows]

Tourist

I don't often post, however, I have to tell you that you are the biggest ****** I have ever read on this forum. See You Next Tuesday.

I hope you get to read this before its deleted.

Please retort.

[dash2]

Tourist,

I appreciate that you don't like the F3 but please don't forget that you can only shoot down what's flown against you.

Our other airborne platforms (until the Typhoon came along and Shar excepted) did not have credible A-A capabilities. To that end we needed an A-A platform, rightly or wrongly that platform was the F3. It would probably have cost just as much to field a different platform which would have been stronger in some respects (almost certainly in airframe performance) but weaker in others (perhaps SA levels). In my experience, outside the visual arena, the F3 can compete with any (sub Raptor/Eagle) fighter and is certainly the match for a Hornet in the A-A environment.

Please don't let your distaste for a platform cloud the issue that a vital role needed to be performed. The crews of the F3 completed this task to the best of their, and their jet's, abilities and are rightly proud of their role and jet.

Regards,

Dash2

[Geehovah]

Well said Dash 2:ok:

[Tourist]

Dash 2

You just had to go and be reasonable and ruin my fun!

I don't actually have anything special against the F3.
It is like nearly everything we get. Flawed but we make the most of it usually through the efforts of the operators.
That said, I think it is very important to be realistic about our kit.

It was the statements "Little did I realise how astonishingly capable this weapons system has become" from BEagle, and "I would like to reassure Tourist and any other misinformed readers that I would not have liked to fight against an F3 for real in any other aircraft during the last few years."
from soddim that I decided not to let pass.

In "the last few years" the F3's competitors are the F15, F22 and Su27, and not one single poster on here has given one metric to support the argument that it is superior to any of them. Capability is all about comparison to competitors, and it only has an astonishing capability compared to it's own far from illustrious beginings.

It is just farcical to pretend that just because the F3 is all we have had for a long time that it has become some kind of legendary fighter. We all know, even F3 crew, that if we were able to change the procurement decision back then we would have tried to get F15 under license.

The rest is just the noble art of Crab baiting:ok:

[Clockwork Mouse]

Tourist, are you in long trousers yet?

[Geehovah]

A famous quote from a F1369

This officer has reached rock bottom but continues to dig..............

[BEagle]

The rest is just the noble art of Crab baiting....

Which marks you out as just another sad internet troll. Please take your inane ramblings elsewhere and leave this thread to the grown-ups.

Incidentally, Tornado ADV and F-15 were designed for totally different mission requirements.

[soddim]

Tourist you seem to be a compulsive digger of bigger and bigger holes. You clearly have no first hand knowledge of this subject and yet you spout insulting criticism at every post you make.

Do us all a favour and restrict your inane and rude comments to something you know something about.

You are the sort of chap (presume not female?) who should not be allowed on an adult chat forum.

[Tourist]

soddim

play the ball, not the man.

Defend your statement "I would like to reassure Tourist and any other misinformed readers that I would not have liked to fight against an F3 for real in any other aircraft during the last few years"

Why?
Because it would be unsporting like seal clubbing?

[Tourist]

BEagle

"Incidentally, Tornado ADV and F-15 were designed for totally different mission requirements"

Yes.
The F15 was designed for the Air dominance mission.

The F3 was designed to support british industry by bodging a bomber whilst ignoring the devastating effect on our operational capability for 25yrs

[BootFlap]

By the way, I would like to say goodbye to the 'F%g Chariot' from a 'Bona Mate'. No fuss, no slurs (bar the obvious banter at the start), but well done fellas. An uneviable task with little recognition; never been an Air Defender but even I as an avowed 'muddy' is more than happy to give you due regard. See you on the flip side fellas, hopefully we all get something that keeps all our skills alive. Best wishes, and God Speed!:ok:

[soddim]

If you were a fighter pilot, Tourist, you would have to have some kind of death wish to face up to a weapons system including the latest missiles and a good radar plus the avionics to provide situational awareness of the kind a Tornado F3 crew have enjoyed for the last few years. That should make it clear to you that there would be considerable risk to your well-being no matter what you were flying.

Yes, there are better fighters around but I bet none of their pilots would relish the opportunity to expose themselves to the risk either. Yes, they would do it if they had to but I bet they would not volunteer.

You should also understand that the days when superior skill and cunning always allowed you to survive air combat are long gone. Nowadays any young man with the latest technology and the ability to use it can completely ruin your day.

The point you need to understand before you annoy any more people who know what the F3 is like from first hand experience is that the aircraft and weapons system started out completely useless as a fighter but many people worked very hard to improve it for many years. Unfortunately, people like you have heard of its' early reputation and assumed that nothing much has changed. People like me know what the changes have been and what it is now capable of and I try again to explain to you that it is now a very capable system - nobody is saying it is the best fighter around but it is nevertheless bloody good at its' job today.

Finally, I would suggest to you that you accept that any knowledge you have of the F3 is at least outdated and more likely just plain wrong.

[Tourist]

soddim

I have no problem with anything you have just said.
A far more reasoned statement.

But I would be interested in knowing what the answer would be if you asked a cross section of the worlds fighter pilots to rank their worst nightmare opposing aircraft scenario.

Do you believe that the F3 would be in the top 5? or 10?

[soddim]

I would imagine in the top 10 but crew training, ability and specific scenario might well promote it to the top 5.

Unfortunately, it still lacks manoeverability - not so important any more - and it still lacks specific excess power except at low level.

[ghostnav]

@Tourist

You are of course free to provide your opinion on the Tornado F3. However, as someone who, I presume, has never flown it operationally, your opinion is not worth s@@t; no more than me giving an opinion on the RN's boats and their ability to steam at 25 kts and make tight turns avoiding rocks or the seabed.

I can only conclude that your ignorance of the aircraft is based on the fact you always wanted a backseat ride in the Tornado F3 but you were never given one.

Not a bite - I just get hacked off with the ill informed!

[500N]

"no more than me giving an opinion on the RN's boats and their ability to steam at 25 kts and make tight turns avoiding rocks or the seabed."

I like your choice of words considering the RN's record of running warships onto rocks and Subs onto sand banks.:O:ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Quote:
I've just read the section about Red Flag and the kill ratios obtained by the F3 force against the best the USAF had to offer were exceptionally good.

Obviously you are aware that at RF there are aggressors who play the job of the bad guys. Part of their role is to not use the full capabilities of their platform but to provide the most accurate representation of threat systems.

So to say it is against the best the USAF had to offer is misleading at best and willful misrepresentation at worst. Some of the Best, yes, but with playing a game by a very different set of rules to what they would choose...


Not quite correct I'm afraid. On a RED FLAG in the mid 90s I was Red Air with the Aggressors in the F3 - they made us fly Soviet tactics simulating AA-10a Alamos and AA-8c; "tethered goat" would be an understatement! However, on the last day the Aggressors told us we could use JTIDS and our normal tactics. I fired out all missiles and bagged 2x F16, 1x F15 and a F4G Wild Weasel (2 shot kills using ACMI missile simulations). The debrief was pretty bloody and the USAF 1-star asked the US to 'stay behind' and the Brits are 'cleared off' - there were some pretty miserable Eagle drivers on the Las Vegas strip that night! Also, I got a real kill on that day that landed us in some deep poo-poo and a diplomatic tangle - but that's not for revelation on this forum!

Fast forward to COPE THUNDER in Alaska in the late 90s - Red Air but able to fly our own tactics. Kill ratio average about 6:1 in F3 favour against F14, F15, F16, F18 and F111. All 'machine kills' with tapes to verify them. On one day a disgruntled Eagle driver accused us of 'cheating' for leaving a pair on the ground on strip alert to join the fight halfway through - the Boss laughed and asked if the Eagle driver had ever heard of QRA!!!

Finally, when did the RAF last score aircraft kills after WWII?

1 May 82 - Mirage IIIEA of FAA Grupo 8 shot down north of West Falkland by Flt Lt Barton RAF using Sidewinder (4.10 pm). Lt Perona ejected safely

1 May 82 - Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down over East Falkland by Flt Lt Penfold RAF using Sidewinder (4.40 pm). Lt Ardiles killed

21 May 82 - Chinook CH-47C of CAB 601 destroyed on ground near Mount Kent by Flt Lt Hare RAF in 1(F) Sqdn Harrier GR.3 using 30mm cannon (8.00 am).

21 May 82 - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 badly damaged on ground near Mount Kent in same attack by Sqdn Ldr Pook and Flt Lt Hare RAF in 1(F) Sqdn Harrier GR.3's using 30mm cannon (8.00 am). Destroyed on 26th in same position by Sqdn Ldr Pook using CBU's

21 May 82 - A-4Q Skyhawk of CANA 3 Esc also shot down near Swan Island in Falkland Sound in same incident by Flt Lt Leeming RAF in No.800 Sea Harrier using 30mm cannon (3.12 pm). Lt Marquez was killed

23 May 82 - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 flew into ground near Shag Cove House, West Falkland attempting to evade Flt Lt Morgan RAF in No.800 NAS Sea Harrier (10.30 am). All crew escaped.

8 Jun 82 - Two A-4B Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 5 shot down over Choiseul Sound by Flt Lt Morgan RAF and a third by Lt D Smith in No.800 NAS Sea Harriers using Sidewinders (4.45 pm). Lt Arraras, Lt Bolzan and Ensign Vazquez killed.

You see that's the problem with you fish-heads, you have very short memories like a Gold Fish (granted these kills are coming up for 29 years ago).

LJ:ok:

[Heathrow Harry]

Those air to air kills were in a Sea Harrier which belonged to the RN

That's why I asked "RAF" - a number of RAF types had kills in Korea but they were on attachment to the RAAF and the USAF - I know, my uncle was one of them

ground strikes are not "shot down" ("shot up perhaps"?)

- you could also include hits in Egypt and Iraq on that basis

The fact is that the RAF has not actually shot anyone down since August 1945 - some of their pilots have managed it but flying someone else's kit -

[dakkg651]

And here's me thinking that since 1914, kills have always been awarded to the pilot and not the aircraft.

Did all that suddenly change in 1982?

Navy snobbery in trying to play down the involvement of RAF Harrier AND Sea Harrier pilots during the Falklands War does it no credit at all.

Tourist is just carrying on this pathetic attitude. :ugh:

[Fox3Fox2FoxYou]

With just over 20 years on the jet when I left the mob, I couldn't resist adding my tuppence worth to the thread. To keep things in perspective, Beagle's 'how astonishingly capable this weapons system has become' quote (and I've yet to read the book) is probably coloured by what I imagine is a fairly sympathetic and even affectionate description of a jet that inspired a wide range of emotions from the folks who flew and maintained her. Ex-F4 crews hated it to begin with, while Lightning drivers were initially impressed by the radar (z-list onwards). Astonishingly capable? No. Very capable? Absolutely.

There's still a lot of dated folklore around - yes, the F3 lacks high level performance, particularly when you load it up Mike fit with TRD, Phimat, and 8 rockets - but it gets there when it needs to - it just uses a lot of fuel. Shame it's a pig in that fit at height, but it doesn't stop it doing the job - for Tourist, it gets high enough quickly enough for AMRAAM employment unless you think the Space Shuttle is the threat. The high ground is still important, but you don't need to camp there. It was used for DCA CAPs in GW1 because it had no jammer - a prerequisite for OCA over Iraq. The Stage 1 radar came in with a lot of UOR tweaks just in time for the campaign, a step change but still behind some US radars of the day (it was actually better than many F16 and F18 radars for a while).

The jet was deemed fine for Deny Flight until Scott O'Grady got shot down, and even then it continued flying over Bosnia (still no jammer) until Deliberate Force kicked off, when the CAOC withdrew it to CAP over the Adriatic. Much baiting from the Harrier mates on 4 Sqn until the night-time Banja Luka strike. NVG capability (4 Sqn hadn't worked up on gogs yet) over-rode the lack of a jammer and the F3s went back feet dry to sweep as part of the gorilla, followed by support for the mission that went looking for the downed Mirage crew. Only slowed down the GR7 mates' banter though.

Southern Watch saw the jet fitted with TRD and Link-16, and the yanks regularly made the F3s DCA Commander (the UK was streets ahead with JTIDS implementation, and the USAF liked how we used it). Sadly, the yanks seemed to know more about the jet's abilities than most of the RAF - too many R1 crews thought they had an Eagle HVAAD CAP all to themselves when it was actually a combo of 2 or 4 F3s with 4 or 2 F15s covering the U-2, the package and the tankers, AWACS et all, because we could keep a handle on where everyone was - not all F15s had data-link at the time. GR4 corporate knowledge was a little better, but not always.

For Telic 1, ASRAAM had arrived but AMRAAM wasn't fitted. While it's true the air threat never materialised, no-one expected that to be the case - particularly in light of the (rarely mentioned) MiG25 and MiG23 activity in the week before the campaign started. There's a lot of hoop spouted about what the F3s actually did in Telic, and I've often heard it said they were never in harm's way. Truth is, CAPing in Balad SE's overhead, committing against reported helos north of Baghdad or flying shotgun for the single GR4 over central Baghdad because he had no wingman never even made it into the MISREPs because it was seen as routine compared with what the muds were doing. Likewise the SAMs and Triple-A. Lots of respect for the muds who were too busy to even know the F3 was there (which means the fighter guys are doing their job). 11 Sqn demonstrated an awesome ALARM capability but didn't deploy (MoD politics played a part).

Bit of a ramble to put the record straight, so I'll finish by saying how I rate the jet.
F3 v MiG-29? Done it and he could never get close enough to turn and burn (and I'm talking SkyFlash and ASRAAM).
F3 v SU-27? Ditto - big ac that is not as easy a tally as you'd expect, but if he can't even find you before you've timed out... and the Slammer makes it easier.
F3 v SU-30? Rather not meet him by choice - but would if had to.
F3 v MiG-25? Gets a mention from Southern Watch - difficult target at Mach 2.5 but not impossible (Eagle had the same concerns) - easy meat if he came down off his perch, no threat to the F3 if he stayed high.
F3 v airliner? For Tourist - takes burner and care to VID, that's all.
Helicopters? Played with everything from a Gazelle through a Chinook to the Hip and Hind - takes patience is all.
Finally, it's a nonsense to compare with Raptor etc but the F15, F16 and F18 might be more valid comparisons. Latest variants' weapons systems arguably have the edge in general and the airframes have always outperformed the F3 , but just go back a few years to when the F3 finally got AMRAAM (politics delayed it by nearly 10 years) and it stood up well to its contemporaries in terms of weapon system performance. Proof was in the Red Flag A-A debriefs. Leon J is not exaggerating - I was there when the F3 achieved the highest recorded Semi-Active kill ratio in Red Flag - independently verified. And that was pre-AMRAAM and JTIDS.

Top 10 or top 5? First 5 years of service - neither. Moved top 10 with Stage 1 and then top 5 with Stage 3 and associated weapons suite. It's a travesty that it took so long for the F3 to achieve its potential - MoD amateur politics bears the blame - everything on the jet today was meant to be in the Mid-Life-Upgrade that was cancelled after GW1. Some subsequent upgrades / mods that were tested (and cheap) never saw the light of day because they were 'capability enhancements' that might have impacted Typhoon procurement...

After all that I think I might actually buy the book - see if it tells it like it is, warts and all. :cool:

[BEagle]

Navy snobbery in trying to play down the involvement of RAF Harrier AND Sea Harrier pilots during the Falklands War does it no credit at all.

Yes, it's the 'gunner, not the gun'.

If your read Mog's excellent book Hostile Skies, perhaps the best book written about the 1982 South Atlantic air war, on p303 he describes how, during the cruise home, FONAC had sent a signal stating that 'there will be a large amount of press coverage when the aircraft arrive at Yeovilton and that all the pilots are to be dark blue; no crabs allowed'.

The signal was later countermanded; however, the only RAF pilot on the final disembarkation had no kills to his credit.

[Cows getting bigger]

HH, I'm pretty sure that there is a very proud (ex) member of the RAF regiment who would beg to differ with your "don't count" argument. Equally one or two Harrier pilots who happened to be showing the RN how to 'do it' in 1982. :)

[flighthappens]

Not quite correct I'm afraid. On a RED FLAG in the mid 90s I was Red Air with the Aggressors in the F3 - they made us fly Soviet tactics simulating AA-10a Alamos and AA-8c; "tethered goat" would be an understatement! However, on the last day the Aggressors told us we could use JTIDS and our normal tactics. I fired out all missiles and bagged 2x F16, 1x F15 and a F4G Wild Weasel (2 shot kills using ACMI missile simulations). The debrief was pretty bloody and the USAF 1-star asked the US to 'stay behind' and the Brits are 'cleared off' - there were some pretty miserable Eagle drivers on the Las Vegas strip that night! Also, I got a real kill on that day that landed us in some deep poo-poo and a diplomatic tangle - but that's not for revelation on this forum!

:D However I'm sure that for every story you have about handing it to the yanks that there is an F-16 driver simulating a Mig29 who got in and took out a four ship of F-3's with archers...

As I was saying generally the red air side is handcuffed to a specific threat simulation. Take the gloves off and fight red flying with blue tactics, weapons and SA and red air would generally do better (no matter what the platform F-15/16/18). So what beagle said about an F3 getting good kill ratio's at a flag should hardly come as a surprise (given that generally they would have been flying Blue).

Not disagreeing with you, as has been mentioned, I don't want to try to take on any fighter with a good radar, Link, and Amraam... doesn't sound too good for the bad guys long term health prospects...

[draken55]

Beagle

"when the aircraft arrive at Yeovilton".

For younger readers this event in July 1982 marked only the return of 800 Naval Air Squadron from Operation Corporate. HMS Invincible and her Sea Harriers from 801 Naval Air Squadron stayed on in the South Atlantic until relieved by HMS Illustrious and 809 NAS as did all the RAF's Harrier GR3's from 1(F) Squadron which had disembarked ashore.

SHARS and Harriers were the only fixed wing aircraft available until a full length runway was made suitable for Phantoms in October 1982 after which Invincible and the SHARS returned home.

So no more Navy/RAF conspiracy theories please, at least on this point:bored:

Back on thread though, I am sad to see the F3 go. It had become a tried and tested platform and I still think two pairs of eyes are better than one:ok:

[Wrathmonk]

Heathrow Harry

I am amused by how you rate a force (i.e the RAF AD force) as to when it was used for the reason intended. By that I assume if it hasn't been used as intended then it is a waste of money and why should we have bothered? As mentioned earlier by that reckoning the nuclear deterrent was, and remains, a waste of money. Personally I'm rather glad that the presence of the UK AD force (and the nukes) over the years has meant they have not had to be used in anger. But at least they were there, ready and capable, should the need arise.

In some ways it's no different to your home / car / health / pet insurance. Costs a lot of money but you'll be bloody glad you have it when you need it.

[Willard Whyte]

Many of the EX F3 mates seem to be getting rather touchy. A slight against a lump of metal is not a slight against the lump of flesh twiddling knobs and shouting on the radio.

How much of the F3 capability can be put down to the crew, and their training, and how much to the aircraft?

Would our AD capability have been better served in a different airframe, all other things being equal?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

As a USAF Colonel once told me,
"if you guys (RAF) had our airplanes, we'd still be a colony"

[Willard Whyte]

F3WMB, my point exactly.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

There's not much as pleasureable as being asked to leave the debrief room so the General Commanding a USAF Air Force can explain to his wingman why he's just been killed by an F3 crew (with a stupid callsign) in his shiny new wonderjet, again.:ok:
Make the best of what you've got, and make them fight your way. I never liked telephone boxes anyway.

[Fox3Fox2FoxYou]

Attitude and training made the difference, but the jet was not as bad as (the uninformed) generally make out. Most of us would rather have had US hardware but made the best out of what was often a frustrating but equally often satisfying jet.

[Heathrow Harry]

Wrathmonk

I never said it was ALL a waste of money - on that basis anything unused is a waste of money which is obvious idiocy

All I was pointing out is that the facts I stated aren't exactly the headlines the RAF uses - I was amazed myself TBH

The Navy would be in much the same boat if they hadn't sunk the Belgrano

What is food for thought is was ALL that money and effort well spent........

[Lima Juliet]

Fox3Fox2FoxYou

Just a minor point for your otherwise excellent post. We had the best SA6 jammer on Deny Flight and Decisive Edge from late 1995 into 1996 for 'Feet Dry' operations in Bosnia - the TRD or affectionately known "turd".

IIRC it was, and still is, one of the most effective SP Jammers on the market (apart from the ****e packaging and the lead weight counterbalance!).

All the best

LJ

[Fox3Fox2FoxYou]

Leon,

Deliberate Force happened before the TRD was cleared. Post-Deliberate Force, I think 29 may have deployed with it on Deny Flight, and yes, it was almost certainly the best jammer of its day against a variety of threats. The RAFs reluctance to develop it properly was nothing short of criminal - unsurprisingly, an AN/ALQ TRD with half the drag was fitted to the F16CJs in Southern Watch and Iraqi Freedom. The F3 was still dragging around TRD in a fat modified BOZ pod with a PHIMAT on the other wing as combined counterbalance and extra chaff dispenser. The tight-fisted approach to the whole thing (capability enahancement black-balled again) led to one TRD (instead of 2) and a freakin parachute in the pod so we could recover every decoy.:ugh:

[Wrathmonk]

HH

What is food for thought is was ALL that money and effort well spent........

An impossible question to answer as it relies on hindsight! If we could all see into the future and make our procurement decisions based on the hindsight we gain from being there then life would be sweet. However, to have a stab at it I would say yes - the F3 force has maintained QRA in UK and the FI and ensured the relevant airspace has been kept secure for years. Just because they haven't had to resort to using their available weapons does not make it a crap platform or a waste of money!:ugh:

And no, I'm not from an AD background.

However, do you consider your car/house/health/pet etc insurance to be money well spent? After all, in broad terms, the military is one huge insurance policy. When we're needed we can do no wrong (post-Falklands for instance) and it's all money well spent. But when, in Joe Publics eye, there is nothing going on it's a different story. Rudyard Kipling got it right (http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/tommy.html).:ok:

[F3sRBest]

Fox3Fox2FoxYou

11 Sqn demonstrated an awesome ALARM capability but didn't deploy (MoD politics played a part).

I disagree....

RAF politics played a huge part

But do agree...

XI(F) Sqn demonstrated an awesome ALARM capability

:ok:

[RedCoaster]

I too am pulled into the debate but as the author of the book, I feel some responsibility.

F3F2FY,


probably coloured by what I imagine is a fairly sympathetic and even affectionate description of a jet that inspired a wide range of emotions from the folks who flew and maintained her


It is factual and honest without, I hope, retrospective 'talking-up' or too much nostalgia. Every word was cleared for accuracy by the MoD and I hope that you'll find the radar and weapons system description 'warts and all'. Pretty much everyone who contributed came up with the same independently formed conclusion: It was a bit rubbish to start with, got a whole lot better and ended-up very capable - by which time the aircraft's reputation had already been made and reinforced by those who were ill informed and / or had an axe to grind.

Read it and see, even if you hate the text - the pictures are gorgeous and £2 from every book sold goes to RAFA...

[Engines]

Leon,

Sorry, got to come in here. The question is: 'when did the RAF last score aircraft kills after WW2?'. The answer is 'none' except possibly from RAF Spitfires in Israel in '46 or 47.

The RAF scores an air to air kill when an RAF aircraft does it. That's an aircraft on the RAF military aircraft register, operating under RAF command. Fact. Not open to discussion. Now, if you WANT to go down the 'kills are awarded to the pilot and not the aircraft' route, let's just unpack the Battle of Britain, or perhaps not? Any takers?

There is NO Navy snobbery, or playing down the role of RAF pilots in the Falklands - on Sea Harrier they were bloody good squadron members playing key roles. 1 Squadron were recognised and applauded by the Navy as the professionals they were. My unit picked an RAF guy out of the water after he was shot down, and he remains a true friend to this day.

The problems start further up the chain when inter service 'willy waving' starts. We ough to do our best to be better than that. However, the facts are there - no RAF air to air kills since WW2. It's inconvenient for some in the RAF but true.

best Regards

Engines

[BEagle]

The problems start further up the chain when inter service 'willy waving' starts.

True.

As for the silly air-to-air kills stats - so what? When did the RAF (or the RN, for that matter) last drop a bucket of sunshine on an enemy?

It's called deterrence - and that's why the F3s didn't need to kill anything in GW2. The deterrent effect of the F3 air presence was in part sufficient to keep the Iraqi air force on the ground.

[1.3VStall]

Engines,

For the sake of accuracy I have to point out that you are wrong. 92(F) Sqn shot down a Jaguar over Germany in the 1980s;definitely an air-to-air kill!

[Lima Juliet]

Engines

Now, if you WANT to go down the 'kills are awarded to the pilot and not the aircraft' route, let's just unpack the Battle of Britain, or perhaps not? Any takers?

What's your point fella? We're pretty open about the vital role the Fleet Air Arm (FAA) played in the Battle of Britain. Take a look at this official link to the Battle's Roll of Honour from the RAF's Air Historical Branch:

The Battle of Britain - Home Page (http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/roll.html)

You will clearly see the names of 56x FAA pilots who fought in the Battle - no cover ups and all annotated with FAA in brackets with RN Ranks. Again, IIRC some 4x FAA pilots became aces during the battle out of a total of 188. Of the top 10 aces from the Battle some 5 were Brits, 2 were Kiwis, 1 an Aussy, 1 a Czech and 1 a Pole - no FAA in the top 10 though.

Also take a look at this:

Although the naval pilots were fully integrated operationally into the RAF they wore naval uniform and guarded their Navy identities. Gardner had the flag hoist of Nelson's "England Expects" signal at Trafalgar painted on the side of his Hurricane. In general, they got on very well with Bader - "He wasn't the most diplomatic of people" Gardner said. He had very strong opinions and stuck to these no matter who he was talking to, a senior officer or otherwise. What he said had to go and that was that". In all, 56 Fleet Air Arm pilots flew in the Battle of Britain, 23 of them with the RAF. Nine were killed.

Taken from the Battle of Britain Memorial website - again it paints a positive picture for the FAA (which until May 1939 was the "Fleet Air Arm of the Royal Air Force"!).

Also, 804 and 808 Sqns in the FAA were units that fought independantly of the RAF, just like 1 Sqn in the Falklands.

So your comparison is a good one in my view and whilst we, the RAF, do not detract or claim that FAA pilot's kills in the Battle belong to the RAF, then I believe the RAF have equal claim to our Pilot's kill claims in the Falklands War - and IIRC the RAF pilots were there because the FAA were short of pilots just like the RAF were short in 1940? Sadly, because the FAA pilot numbers were considerably smaller than the RAF in 1940, then historians and authors tend to blob them up as "RAF kills", just as they do for the FAA for 1982.

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

We can also add:

RAF exchange pilots with the USAF in Korea:

Flight Lieutenant John Nicholls (later Vice Chief of the Air Staff in 1977) got the first in December 1952 (damaging three more).

Squadron Leader Max Higson from No.43 Squadron destroyed at least one MiG-15.

Flight Lieutenant Daniel who flew with 334 FIS at Kimpo was credited with damaging two MiGs during his six-month tour during 1952.

Flight Lieutenant RTF Dickinson, shot down one MiG-15

Flight Lieutenant John Granville-White shot down one MiG 15

Flight Lieutenant Graham S Hulse shot down three more MiG 15s

No 208 Squadron took its revenge after four of its unarmed Spits were downed by the IDF/AF. That can't be confirmed, though Tim McElhaw of 208 (later OC 14 in the Canberra era) certainly got two Egyptian Spit Vs on 22 May 1948, and on 7 January 1949 Flight Lieutenant Brian Spragg of 6 Squadron, flying an RAF Tempest, shot down an IDF/AF Spitfire IX.
Sadly, the stories of these are pretty sensitive but covered in depth here: IAF v RAF (http://www.spyflight.co.uk/iafvraf.htm)

There is also persistant reporting that a Venom mate got a kill during the Suez op (perhaps on 5 November, perhaps Flying Officer Dave Williams of 249 Sqn, his victim being a Meteor), and that a Hunter got a manoeuvre kill against a MiG-17 during the Confrontation and that a Javelin crew got a Malaysian C-130 in 1964.

So, plenty of combat action outside of 1982's kills.

LJ :ok:

[handleturning]

I hope you boys are getting this out of your system. Not dragging my arse to Leuchars next week to hear everyone bang on about how good they used to be.;)

[Willard Whyte]

All this willy waving, they'll get frostbite and drop off you know.

[theonewhoknows]

You are obviously another See You Next Tuesday.

Go on, say something.

[ghostnav]

F3F2FY

Excellent posts!

I have ordered my copy of the book; even though I am a 20+ year vet on the jet, doubt if I will get a mention. Perhaps you ought to write a book with your interesting insight into the operational aspects of the aircraft.

[BEagle]

RedCoaster, that is indeed an accurate summary of the book's qualities. I had no real idea how much things had moved on with regard to the F3 Air Defence System's capabilities until I read your excellent book.

And boy, would I have liked to have flown 800KIAS+ at errm, '250' ft!

Two main factors show up time and again - the development of tactics and the use of Link16. AD force tactics have always been the province of hard-working QWIs, hence the old 180x0 AIM7EIII/AIM-9G attack/re-attack thing we learned at CGY on the F4 became the 150 ARA when I was (briefly) on 56 at WTM. A much better tactic - and that was just one example. Even as cr@p as I was, a bit of knowledge and some synergy regarding A/A gunnery techniques helped me to a 52% score on one APC trip - not bad for the old F-4! Tactics and technique, skill and trickery!

But Link16 must be the ace in the hand, surely? Being able to see what was going on at (some distance) from the fight must have given you a tremendous advantage?

I've campaigned long and hard for link-enablement in tankers. As far as the tanker is concerned, it gives the crew some SA and reduces the danger of fratricide. Not just for the tanker - I'm pretty sure that a switched-on crew watching the F-15/BlackHawk activity during OP.BOLTON might perhaps have stopped a tragedy. Equally, when an F-14 mistakenly plugged in to our jet during GW1 and wouldn't disconnect when told (we had a large CF-18 attack formation inbound and the F-14 had mis-id'd his tanker), we could have given him a snap to his assigned tanker. A minor use of Link16, but trying to persuade others of the mission-critical need for Link16 in a 21st century tanker is, well, not always easy! And, of course, the tanker acts as a relay for other users, whilst contributing high time and position quality and its own specifics to the network without the crew ever needing to lift a finger.

AD is a system, not a jet. That means everybody from the clerk who pays the cook who feeds the groundcrew who service the jet, the people who operate the jet, the jet itself, the missile system, the tactics, the AWACS team, the Link, the tanker-wanquerres - everybody and everything.

But sad spotters still think a 'good' fighter is something which flies 'cobras' at some airshow.....:\

With the latest chunterings about a 'no fly zone' in Libya, one last hurrah for the F-3 force with a push to a Mediterranean base must surely be a possibility, even at this late stage?

[Engines]

Leon,

I think we're in danger of agreeing loudly (sort of).

At the squadron/practitioner level, there is respect and willingness to recognise professional fighting people. Official records always record the truth scrupulously.

However, at the 'political' level, there is no doubt that the Battle of Britain is ALWAYS credited to the RAF - and rightly so. And in the same way, the Falklands was a triumph for the Navy and the FAA.

But the FACT is that 'the RAF' (an RAF aircraft under RAF command) hasn't shot down an enemy aircraft since 1945 (possibly 46). I have to point out that the same is not true for the FAA. The main reason for this is that most of the wars that have presented air to air combat were in places that meant that FAA fighter aircraft were the ones involved. I don't suppose anyone wanted it to be that way, and it wasn't some 'RN snobbery' that made it happen that way - just geography and timing, plus a good bit of human failings.

Yes, we were, the Fleet Air Arm of the RAF, and proud of the fact.

Let's just cap this by paying tribute to all those who flew and fought the F3. Not an easy job, but done well and bravely.

Best Regards

Engines

[Lima Juliet]

BEags

You are so on the money about JTIDS, but sadly the great "Networked Enabled Capability" (NEC) Holy Grail has never materialised in the UK Forces. Why? Because each DEC (or CAP these days), Program Team and FLC has its own agenda. Sadly, I saw more NEC working with my US cousins than I ever did with my own Forces. Time and again it would be the F3 and the E3 "on the net" in a UK COMAO with everyone else completely "cluedo". Things got a little better when Typhoon came along, but Nimrod, VC10 (mostly), Tristar, Puma, Merlin, Chinook, GR4, Harrier, Jaguar, C130 and Hawk were conspicuous in their absence!

Also, the integration of JTIDS in F3 was superb (took a couple of years to get right though): no separate displays (ala F15), data-link tracks incorporated on TAC Display and RADAR Display with the ability to text message between assets including secure voice up to Secret.

:D

[Lima Juliet]

Engines - "Broadly", I believe we do agree...

:ok:

[BEagle]

Leon, one problem with the VC10 was perhaps that not all variants are Link16-enabled? So the chances of getting the right variant for a COMAO were perhaps limited - unless, of course, the organisers had mandated that Link16-enabled tankers were required as an essential part of the COMAO.

But, as our CSROs always used to remind us, the only way to survive is through knowledge, equipment and will. You can provide the best kit there is and know what it's cpapable of, but if you can't be ar$ed to use it, then what's the point? I saw this time and again when checking VC10K captains - those who couldn't be bothered to switch on the RWR, let alone run the BIT checks, would always be asked for an explanation during the debrief. I just hope that the same thing isn't true with Link16....

[Fox3Fox2FoxYou]

BEagle and Leon,

Spot on with your comments about JTIDS. The real shocker was the cancellation of the full fleet LINK16 implementation in the early 90s. Hence we had yet another mini-fleet within a fleet by the mid-90s, where the Coningsby guys had TIDS and were loath to share it when the rest of us needed it. I started as a sceptic because I felt AMRAAM was more important, but I became a convert after one trip (still wanted the Slammer though).

The greatest travesty of all was the RAF giving up the lead on data-link employment and not rolling out the 'lite' terminals that were being developed across as much of the inventory as possible. Every RAF fast-jet, helo and tanker should be on the net, but the RAF threw away the chance through a mixture of ignorance and prejudice. NEC? We not only missed the boat - we sank it and are still treading water.

[Scruffy Fanny]

To all those people who have been writing utter uninformed drivel here is something to ponder whilst you type away. A few weeks ago 111 ( F) Squadron intercepted and shadowed a Bear "H" off the UK coast - at night at low level. Through his NVG;s the back seater could see the Bear and the Lights of the UK in one frame. That sums up the F3- defending the UK- Not as some of you have put it " a waste pf money" . No doubt you have sat in your warm bungalow typing away your vitriol oblivious to the fact "someone" is looking after you. Frankly those who knock the RAF crews doing QRA 24/7 need lining up and shooting. For the record i flew 1200Hrs + on the F3, and sure it wasnt the best but it did the job it was designed for. The guys who fly it today get far less time in the cockpit than i ever did and i take my hat off to them- Oh and Tourist who ever you are, were you by any chance an only child, or bullied at school??

[Heathrow Harry]

To add to the Korean total my uncle, John Lovell, had a PLAAF MiG15 kill flying an F-86Fwith the 25th Fighter Interceptor Squadron , 51st Fighter Wing on 27th June 1953 - John Lovells flight commander was John Glenn

Jock Maitland was also on loan there

[Tashengurt]

Can I just say I'm sad to see the F3 go. Having squipped on both 43 and Tremblers including GW1 I spent many many happy days on those Squadrons.
I don't know if was good bad or indifferent but it was what we had at the time and those times were good.
Just regret I never pressed for a gash trip in one. Bugger!

[forget]

LJ. ... a Javelin crew got a Malaysian C-130 in 1964.

They were on our side. Wouldn't that irritate someone? :confused:

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Before JTIDS, I always found the Victor tanker crews worked very hard to keep the air picture. They'd often come meet you off an intercept (if you were their only customers), and head towards the next fight whilst you tanked; all no comms as well. Nicest plane to tank off also I thought, especially at night.

[maxburner]

''Also, the integration of JTIDS in F3 was superb (took a couple of years to get right though): no separate displays (ala F15), data-link tracks incorporated on TAC Display and RADAR Display with the ability to text message between assets including secure voice up to Secret.''

Thank you! I did my best.:O

[soddim]

With this thread back on civilised exchanges of information from those with first-hand knowledge of the F3 it might be appropriate to pay tribute to the professionalism and dedication of those who worked so hard to improve the ugly duckling. In the words of Spon Clayton 'You can't polish a turd' but they proved him wrong. Their efforts and the money prised from a reluctant treasury provided the taxpayer with an excellent machine for the air defence of UK.

Well done!

[Geehovah]

Amongst all the clap trap in this thread if anyone wants to read a single post which gives a true reflection of the F3 then re read Fox3Fox2FoxYou (http://www.pprune.org/members/352420-fox3fox2foxyou)'s post #86.

A great summary.:ok:

Having been involved in the jet from almost day 1 (Tornado F2) through implimenting the UORs for GW1 and then formalising my own mods (catch 22) in Air Def, this is the best summary here.

One of these days I'll write a book as to why MOD will never be able to take a reasonably capable design (for an interceptor) and produce a world class platform. The F3 is almost the perfect example. At all stages of its service we had technological solutions to its deficiencies (although Foxhunter taxed some very sharp minds). All we ever lacked was a touch of vision, appropriate priority and a lot of money.

[Corporal Clott]

Geehovah

Wise words on the money front. You only have to remember the F-15A to F-15C modifications. F-15A was a piece of sh!t (apart from the basic airframe) until the F-15C upgrade - lots of $$$$ spent on avionics and then a world beating combination.

Cpl Clott

[Lima Juliet]

Forget

LJ.
Quote:
... a Javelin crew got a Malaysian C-130 in 1964.

They were on our side. Wouldn't that irritate someone?

My apologies - I should have typed "INDONESIAN" :ugh:

LJ

[XV277]

W
There is also persistant reporting that a Venom mate got a kill during the Suez op (perhaps on 5 November, perhaps Flying Officer Dave Williams of 249 Sqn, his victim being a Meteor), and that a Hunter got a manoeuvre kill against a MiG-17 during the Confrontation and that a Javelin crew got a Malaysian C-130 in 1964.


There were also the occasions when Hunters went after Yemeni Migs attaking ground targets in Aden (or was it Oman?) in the 60s - I beleive some camera film showed gun strikes, but the Hunters were restricted from crossing the border to prosecute the kill. As to whether these MIgs made it home safe or not I don't know.

[Bevo]

Corporal Clott;
F-15A was a piece of sh!tThe first deliveries of the F-15A to combat squadrons was in 1976. MAC started delivering F-15C in 1979. The only initial differences between the two was the addition of 2,000 lbs of fuel in the wings and provisions for conformal fuel tanks (CFT). The avionics were identical. Later the F-15C received additional up-grades (and continues to do so with AESA radar in some).

In 1979 I would have taken the F-15A over any fighter in existence! A piece of sh!t - I think NOT.

[maxburner]

Bevo - well said. Early F15s had engine difficulties, but they were a very capable aircraft from the outset. They just got better through the years.

[Lima Juliet]

F-15A...my Sqn Boss flew them and in the 90s he said that it was not much better than the Lightning. He also said that until the F-15C came in it was not much better than an airshow jet.

LJ

[Bevo]

Well Leon, each to his own opinion. Mine is based on having logged 1850 hrs. in the Phantom (178 combat missions in SEA from Korat Thailand and a tour at RAF Lakenheath), a flight in the Lighting at RAF Coltishall in 1973, 525 hrs F-15A/C , 260 hrs. in the F-14A, and 223 hrs. in the F/A-18A (Navy exchange tour with VX-4) and flight time in “other” aircraft as the Red Hat Squadron commander from 1985 to 1989.

I enjoyed flying the Lighting and thought it was a great handling aircraft. Good performance, although some of that performance came because it wasn’t handicapped with a lot of fuel (my flight lasted all of 0.7 hrs.) HOWEVER, I would never have traded the F-15 for a Lighting going into combat.

The Eagle had at least as good performance, even better flying qualities, more fuel, and the head-up display, cockpit controls and avionics in the F-15 were a generation ahead of anything in the Lighting.

[barnstormer1968]

Bevo.

While it was nice to hear that you liked the performance of the lightning, it must be born in mind that its avionics and capabilities SHOULD have been less that the F15's as it was a much older aircraft in design.

As I am curious, how would you rate the F14, F4 and F18 in comparison to the F15 in the AD/interceptor role (at the times you flew them, and not referring the the super hornet etc).

[soddim]

I saw at first hand the OT & E effort when the F15 was introduced at Luke AFB and the rate of progress in achieving the required capability was exponential. There were problems but dollars and contractors efforts were poured into the various fixes and, once the air-to-ground role was ditched, it became a difficult opponent to beat in an F4.

I was therefore very disappointed when a UK team visited to evaluate the aircraft as an alternative to the proposed F3 and reported back that it was less suitable.

I formed the opinion that they were telling the senior staff what they wanted to hear instead of the obvious truth.

Much later the commons defence committee asked a senior air force officer whether if we went to war he would prefer to be flying an F15 or an F3. When he answered F3 he was asked why and replied 'because it had an exceptional ECCM capability'. Yes, he was right - at that time it was the easiest radar in the western world to jam - you didn't even need a jammer to get into the F3 radar and wipe out plots.

Yes, we progressed ourselves after that but we could have had a better capability a lot earlier and saved a lot of defence budget money.

[Bevo]

barnstormer1968:
it must be born in mind that its avionics and capabilities SHOULD have been less that the F15's as it was a much older aircraft in design. Yes I am aware of the difference in design date on the Lighting, I was not sure Leon was as I was answering his post.

... how would you rate the F14, F4 and F18 in comparison to the F15 in the AD/interceptor role (at the times you flew them, and not referring the the super hornet etc) At the risk of major thread creep here is my comparison of the aircraft you mentioned.

The F-4 was of course not in the same league as the other fighters you. I flew F-4C,D,E,J,S versions and the RF-4C. The most updated version was the F-4E with Loran. Some folks have claimed that their first aircraft was their love. Sorry, the F-4 was not mine. I did not have the opportunity to fly the German F-4F with APG-65 radar.

I flew the F-15A/C before the F-14A or F/A-18 and my first impression of the F-14 was that it was a step back from the F-15. The HUD on the F-14 was not very good and I usually only used it to find the target using the TD diamond. The AWG-9 radar had a tremendous amount of power but was not as sophisticated as the F-15/F-18. The F-14 was designed for fleet air defense and the primary mission was to intercept Russian bombers before they could launch long range missiles against the carrier. In that role it was a good aircraft as the variable sweep geometry allowed it to loiter on CAP but still dash when needed. The AIM-54C missile had long advertised range, however, for any long range shot you still had to illuminate the target for an extended period of time before it went active so the effective range (for a high Pk) was much shorter. In a turning fight the F-14 was very underpowered as the P&W TF-30 had so much bleed taken to prevent stalls that the thrust to weight wasn’t much more than the F-4. Also, you could always tell the speed of the F-14 by looking at its wing sweep. I would have liked to have flown the F-14D with the GE-F110 engines. A little story: on returning from a flight at VX-4 one day and exiting my F/A-18 I heard what sounded like the largest light bulb in history shattering on the ramp. Turns out the armament folks had dropped an new AIM-54C (dry) while loading it on the F-14 next to me and what I heard was the radome shattering. About $1M in development missile gone. Not a good day for the CO.

The F-15C – F/A-18A is an interesting comparison. The F-15 had better thrust to weight but the F/A-18 had better high AoA capability. The HUD, cockpit controls, and radar were very similar and my transition to the F/A-18 was relatively easy because it was so similar to the F-15 in cockpit layout and controls. The radars were both Hughes designs and were very similar, however, the F-15 had a larger antenna and I always had the impression that the F/A-18 design pushed the receiver to obtain similar ranges to that of the F-15. This seemed to result in more false targets. The track-while-scan implemented first in the F/A-18 was nicer and not installed in the F-15C at that time. And the multiple displays allowed more flexibility and more data to be displayed. It is interesting that although the radars were both Hughes the F/A-18A at the time did not include “mother code”. As a result if two F/A-18s were locked on to a target at the same time and one launched an AIM-7 the missile was confused and would not guide. This was updated later but it is interesting that it was not included in the initial design.

There is lot more to these comparisons but this is a quick overview.

So for the interceptor role against bomber targets the F-14/AWG-9/AIM-54C was the best. In an air defense role it would have been a close call between the F-15 and F/A-18A with the edge going to the F-15 in my opinion.

As an aside the current F-15E export versions retain tremendous AD capability with an IRST added to the AESA radar and great range and increased thrust from the GE-F110 engines. I would love to have flown the Su-27 also but didn’t get the chance.

[Bevo]

soddim
Much later the commons defence committee asked a senior air force officer whether if we went to war he would prefer to be flying an F15 or an F3. When he answered F3 he was asked why and replied 'because it had an exceptional ECCM capability'. Yes, he was right - at that time it was the easiest radar in the western world to jam - you didn't even need a jammer to get into the F3 radar and wipe out plots.Interesting. I am sure not in a position to comment as I know very little except what I read about the F3. And given the passion of this thread that is probably just as well. :)

[Ali Barber]

Would that be the "full and comprehensive ECM suite comparable to any modern day western fighter"? Don't think we were even at Z-list then. The man was a **** of the highest order.