jQ A330 on ground OOL

[teresa green]

JQ cabin crew refused to staff A330 this morning OOL to Japan, and who can blame them. I can see the A/C still there, nothing been reported, anyone know?

[1a sound asleep]

JQ11 GOLD COAST TO TOKYO (NARITA), DEPARTING MONDAY, 14 MARCH 2011 shows cancelled on JQ . Sorry no other info

[Keg]

Brave if true. DFAT says Japan is OK but to defer non essential travel. QF says it's OK- and let's be honest, they've proven recently that they don't mind pulling the pin if they have doubts and given the recent loads they'd probably be thrilled to not have to fly a half full jumbo to/from Japan. There is no risk to anyone in Narita.

The nuclear risk whilst real for those working at the power plants affected isn't really a big deal for the rest of Japan- unless you're a journo looking for a doomsday story.

If you're after a more informed point of view, try here (http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/).

[Ken Borough]

----slightly off-topic but I understand that a ½Star A330 service between SIN and MEL was cancelled yesterday. JQ may not be travelling too well, earthquakes etc notwithstanding?:E

[MrWooby]

Sorry Keg but I tend to agree with the cabin crew, I would not flying to Narita at the moment. Yes the radiation risk is low, but do you really want to be landing and staying at a hotel which is within 200km of a possible full meltdown. Also more possible aftershocks on the way. It just isn't worth the risk. Tea and biccies with the chief pilot sure, but if you refuse to fly I can't see them doing much to you.

[RENURPP]

Do they need to overnight in Japan?

Where they rostered to overnight?

[Sunstar320]

They have less than 90mins on the ground in NRT but that would still make it a 21hr duty if they were not to overnight. I have heard of Asian crew doing these long hours before though.

[teresa green]

I live just to the south of the airport, with a good view of runway and terminals. And she is still sitting there, no engineers. Good luck to the cabin crew if they took that stand, they have every right. I hope the Pilots consider their own health and support them. How much truth is coming out of Japan? If you get crook or injured neither JQ or QF will give a continental. AIPA you should be seriously looking at this.:=

[Ken Borough]

In view of the news now coming through at 1400EDST, they may have made the correct decision but perhaps for the wrong reason (emotion-based).

[1a sound asleep]

2.05pm There are serious concerns of a complete nuclear meltdown after the explosion in the Fukushima Number 3 reactor.

Read more: Live updates: Nuclear emergency declared in earthquake-struck Japan | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/world/magnitude-quake-strikes-japan/story-e6frfkyi-1226019903430#ixzz1GXXUWt9S)

[40Deg STH]

Just a thought. What about those poor passengers who need to get home to their families and search for children?
I'm rostered to NRT. CX is operating 13 flts a day to NRT since saturday.

[breakfastburrito]

40Degrees, are they shuttles or overnights? There are also operational risks with Guam/Saipan as the DP ports (Tsunami) inbound from the south. There is a long time of exposure to the the possibility of all your available airfields becoming unavailable.

[Keg]

So no one's read the link then? :ugh:

[Jetstarpilot]

every Hombre for himself as far as this little black duck is concerned.... I don't get paid enuf to be a charity pilot:cool:

[The Kelpie]

Keg

Yes read it, and although the article suggests risks to be extremely low, given the choice I would choose abstenance every time as the situation is just too unstable over there at the moment and the story changes hour to hour.

The effect of the chenobyl fallout many years ago still affects many. Many people are ignorant of the subject of nuclear energy-myself included, I will leave that to the scientists!!

I think that the employer Jetstar should provide the facts about the risks (if indeed it did that) but the choice of whether you expose yourself to any risk has to lie with the individual. Think I would rather face a disciplinary panel that take the risk.

What I am suggesting is that it is a personal decision in my opinion.

More to follow

The Kelpie

[MrWooby]

Yes Keg, read the article. Also read news reports that major after shock is expected. Do you really want to be in the Mecure hotel if that occurs. As the articles states, there is little risk of radiation exposure. But are you really so sure of the situation that you would risk your health for a few dollars profit for Qantas.

[40Deg STH]

Jetstarpilot, your pay is your fault!!:ok:

Some will be overnights

[Mr. Hat]

How much truth is coming out of Japan?

Loss of face could be a factor in how much is being reported. Its a possibility and something to consider.

Another one to consider is that ultimately the airline wouldn't give a damn if there was a radiation risk. All they want is bums on seats and ops normal.

Had it been a volcanic ash issue it may be different. Thats a threat to the machinery and thats a different story entirely.

Sorry guys I've got my cynical hat on today.

[The Kelpie]

The Volcano has erupted again - This morning (Australian Time)

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Howard Hughes]

Hey Jetstarpilot, great illustration of cause and effect!;)

Possibly the greatest post ever on PPRuNe!:ok:

[teresa green]

One of mine is rostered on NRT, and I had to stop Mrs. Green ringing the company and giving them a earful, (I tell ya, you don't need the AIPA, my missus makes em look like Alice in wonderland) her "boys" (this constitutes every pilot she has ever met,) is in danger as far as she is concerned, and I imagine most of your families would feel rather uneasy also. A unusual situation.

[breakfastburrito]

The Pentagon was expected to announce that the aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan, which is sailing in the Pacific, passed through a radioactive cloud from stricken nuclear reactors in Japan, causing crew members on deck to receive a month’s worth of radiation in about an hour, government officials said Sunday..
NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/world/asia/14plume.html?_r=3)

[X_class]

To put the radiation dose in perspective: That is less exposure than the passengers/crew would get from a return flight Sydney to London.

[zlin77]

Having been in NRT on Friday afternoon and zooming down 10 flights of stairs to exit our hotel, I can appreciate that some people may not be too keen to visit at the moment.......disregarding radiation issues and continuing aftershocks, it possibly won't be the easiest layover for a while, tap water no longer suitable for drinking, panic buying cleaning out supplies of essentials from shops, intermittent power disruptions with rolling blackouts, some rail services not operating, some intermittent. One of my friends in NRT has had her house declared unfit and is in a community centre on a temporary basis, another has had no running water since the quake, although NRT was not badly hit, it is affected!!

[positivegee]

I was in NRT on Sat. night. @ ~ 10pm the terminal was shaking a bit and the locals were running for cover (all the signs above the check-in counters were shaking back and forth).

At about 3am I awoke to a tremmor that I thought was pretty bad that lasted about 10 seconds, about half an hour later, another tremmor hit (I was on the sixth floor) and I timed this one at about 20 seconds.

I remember hearing that the longer a tremmor lasts, the more chance of buildings collapsing!

I couldn't sleep after that one, wondering what to do if the walls started crumbling around me; things went through my mind like "should I get dressed ready to evacuate", "do I need to review the escape exits?", "If I write a will now, will it be valid if it does get found?". Pretty scary stuff really.

At about 1030am, another big tremmor hit (6.2 apparently) and that really shook the joint. I was very glad to get out of there and wondered if any crew would be willing to fly back there with all of the safety concerns.

The earthquake threat is bad enough to stop me going back, but add the threat of deadly radiation exposure...that just tops the cake!

[golow]

Over 26 flights were cancelled due to lack of staff the last time I looked yesterday. Out of Coolangatta the Auckland and 1 Sydney flights was cancelled as well as Tokyo.
Running an airline with no pilots and cabin crew.
No one wants to go an extra inch for this mob now.

[Keg]

Yet the QF flights have all departed. Admittedly, I don't know if there were crewing issues for those flights.

[40Deg STH]

Well I just hope that the Japanese tourist market remember what Jetstar and their crew did for them in their hour of need.
Just to give you an idea, the Jetstar crew hotel is operating normally and food service is normal, only the snack shop is closed.
Cathay operating normally to ALL Japanese ports and putting together a team to go help with rescue operations.Qantas also operating to NRT.
I was there the day before for a 7.2 and the Japanese remained calm, shame a group of Australian crew couldn't.
Note to self,, "Never give my seat up to a Jetstar FA on the bus to NRT station"


I guess, you pay peanuts......etc

[neville_nobody]

Jetstar is a Business. It is about making money. It is not the ADF, the Red Cross or Médecins Sans Frontières. Crew should not be expected to take undue risk just to help with Jetstar's PR. I think Jetstar pilot summed it up pretty well.

More to the point say all the pilots went above and beyond the call of duty and helped out in a major way and Jetstar received amazing publicity. Where would all that good will be come EBA time?

Jetstar has to learn that they reap what they sow. If they go all out to screw their employees to the letter of the law don't expect much in the way of intrinsic motivation when you need it most.

If Jetstar was Southwest however, I think you will find that people will be more than willing to help out. That is the difference.

Of all these Cathay crews that are operating into Japan how many are actually overnighting?

[40Deg STH]

neville, lets avoid thread drift, but Jetstar crews did except well below industry norm.
And yes, There are overnights

I guess they are payed less than the ADF:D

[teresa green]

A little harsh 40deg. Its gone from bad to worse up there, and most aircrew know that the airline they work for don't give a Ratz what happens to them, and especially what happens to them in the future. Imagine trying to extract some compensation from them if you get a dose of radiation (the worst possible scenario) but then again anything is possible up there right now. And to put it bluntly many crew are in the child bearing age, and it does not bear thinking about if it caused a child that was not quite right, again the worst scenario, but this sort of thinking is at the back of their minds, and who could blame them.

[40Deg STH]

Fair enough tereasa, was not me who made the excuses of EBA or payscale.
I feel pay and conditions should never a part of the reasoning.
Imagaine QLD floods.........Cant help, I'm afraid I'll drown
VIC fires..........Can't help, I'll get burned.

Australians always pull together to help who ever is in need, or I thought. Maybe I have been away for too long.
My mates wife is in Tokyo 8 months pregnant and young son, imagine if we didn't fly there and they could not leave!!
I for one am going

[Gate_15L]

To put the radiation dose in perspective: That is less exposure than the passengers/crew would get from a return flight Sydney to London.


Tell you what X-Class,

you go overnight into NRT and operate. Tell us all how the Iodine 131 and Caesium 137 tastes.....

There is NO safe maximum level of exposure for man made ionising radiation.. it might also be a small dose, but for how long? Iodine 131 has a half life of around 8 days, Caesium 137, about 30 years....

The J* crew have every right to refuse to overnight into NRT.
The situation at Fukushima cannot be underestimated. There are FOUR nuclear reactors there, 2 with severe cooling problems and power problems supplying the cooling system pumps.

Having read that they are having serious trouble trying the keep the core submerged in water and that some of the fuel is exposed to the air, would give me more than passing warm fuzzies of concern.

Tokyo is 200 km away to the south and there are reports that the wind is expected to change direction to a Northerly, blowing any radionuclides towards Tokyo. The French Embassy has also recommended that their nationals leave the northern Tokyo area as the situation at Fukushima is highly unpredictable.


But it's alright, because according to J* management, it's completely safe.

(Things to think about if your overnighting in NRT and the fallout heads your way...

Avoid Fresh milk. Any milk produced around the fall out area may contain Iodine 131. Actually make that any dairy...

Consider taking Iodine tablets, talk to a GP first. By taking normal iodine tablets, this protects your thyroid from taking up the radioactive Iodine 131 isotope, which decays giving a beta particle, hence giving off beta radiation.

Take off your outer layer of clothing before entering buildings and leave at the front door if in a fall out area. Cover your mouth and nose while outside with anything that will lower the amount of dust you breath in

Canned goods are probably the best and safest to eat, as is any bottled water.
)

Good Luck!

edited to add.. any dairy... be safe kiddies!

[The Kelpie]

Ask Bruce and his family to accompany you. J* managment will soon do a u turn


oops I forgot. he has an appointment with a certain committee of Senators on Friday!!

[Ken Borough]

oops I forgot. he has an appointment with a certain committee of Senators on Friday!!

So! It's only Tuesday afternoon so BB could do at least two return trips Australiua/Japan before he's due in Canberra. Perhaps he should visit his troops up there to show some support and solidarity? :yuk::yuk:

[Mstr Caution]

But it's alright, because according to J* management, it's completely safe.


May I suggest J* use excuse number 27.

"The cancellation of some of our services has been an industrial issue & not a safety issue"

Ken, I don't think BB is available.
Excuse number 49
"I have to attend my sisters baby shower"

[33 Disengage]

I guess this is why I saw 3 ads on TV last night for Jet*. When it's all turning to sh!te the only thing management know to do is spend money, try and prop up the brand.

[Oxidant]

Ken, I don't think BB is available.



Still waiting for BB (In Christchurch) after he postponed his visit after the Sept. quake. “Didn’t want to put unnecessary people into the area.........."

(But, more than happy to put four plane loads a day, into the airport!)

[Hugh Jarse]

Gate 15L,

Don't forget Strontium 90, which affects the bones and bone marrow. This is a further element resulting from fission.

My father and his mates were in Hiroshima with BCOF shortly after the bomb was dropped. Years later he succumbed to Myelodysplasia, a type of leukaemia associated with radiation exposure (or benzene).

He attempted to prove to Vets Affairs that his time in Japan (and Strontium 90) was the cause, but they attributed it (of course) to benzene. He was involved in transport. Benzene is (was) found in petrol.

The trucks he drove and worked on were diesel.

Personally, I would not be allowing myself anywhere near the stuff, for any amount of money.

The problem with allowing yourself to be put in harm's way is that problems may not manifest themselves for many years. Then you have to prove the cause!

[Capt Kremin]

I doubt QF will be slipping in NRT in the near future.

[limitedrisk]

The flight out of Auckland to Goldcoast via Queenstown was cancelled due to lack of techcrew. A mate said he saw Simon Westaway reporting on NZ TV, stating the cancellation was due to pilots not coming in on their days off to cover sickness. So now it's a poor pilots fault who is having a day off!

Perhaps Mr Westaway the cancellation was due to lack of resources such as no one on standby to cover the pilot sickness. Perhaps a lack of resources? Perhaps an unwillingness to put the money into the business? Perhaps if you spent the money required to make it a legitamite operation it would no longer be viable?

Perhaps Mr Westaway you need to tell the truth.

[teresa green]

I hope JQ does not slip either. My young bloke is going and I am dead set against it, and his mother is almost a hospital case. Double up your crews JQ and turn em around straight home. Think of your family fella's, think of your future. Its no longer safe. AIPA where the :mad: are you.

[Capt Kremin]

AIPA is working on it. Expect an announcement presently.

[Trent 972]

tg says - AIPA where the http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif are you.
Quote (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/445572-jq-a330-ground-ool-2.html#post6304949) teresa green
I tell ya, you don't need the AIPA, my missus makes em look like Alice in wonderland
We're all waiting for Mrs Green to sort it out.

[Icarus2001]

OH & S is a funny thing...

Neglect to wear your hi vis joke vest and you are accused of putting people in danger.

but...

Operating to and overnighting in a city with 11 times the normal level of radiation is okay.

Guys this is a safety issue. In Australia we have government departments to deal with this stuff. Pick up the phone and ask some questions.

Your employer is required to provide you with a safe workplace at all times.

[denabol]

According to the ABC reports and others the Japanese government has admitted that the early figures given for radiation levels outside the reactor complex were actually 1000 times higher than indicated because the press releases all put the symbol for micro sieverts after the numbers instead if milli sieverts.

It is now being officially described as harmful to health to be within 30 kilometres of the reactors. A cooling pond in reactor 4 is on fire after an earlier explosion, and No 2 also blew at at dawn. That's four reactors going bang.

Radiation levels are rising sharply near Tokyo, but not a threat to health, which apparently is official talk for run for your lives.

[puff]

Why not just run them through Naha and overnight the crew there - just do a Naha-Tokyo-Naha shuttle?

I would not want to be anywhere near the place personally !

[teresa green]

Trent, Mrs Green is ready to kill. Being a retired Nursing sister, she knows the consequences, I have already stopped her giving B and J a earful, and Old Abeles in 89 got a hearing from her, that he would have taken to his grave. Never stand in the way of a female when her family are threatened. And she is 50 kilos ringing wet.

[EPIRB]

Interesting article here Red Alert: Radiation Rising and Heading South in Japan | STRATFOR (http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20110315-red-alert-radiation-rising-and-heading-south-japan?utm_source=redalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=110315&utm_content=readmore&elq=1d5a9d544b3044b984bb2abdf69938b0)

[nitpicker330]

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Was there a J* crew slipping NRT already - what about them?

UTR

[40Deg STH]

Pleasing to hear a common sense solution of KIX has come about. As tereasa said, a heavy crew would have worked too.
Good luck to all the pax arriving home to Japan to begin the huge job ahead, my thoughts are with them

[Mr. Hat]

I thought I heard on the news that Air China aren't flying to Japan due to the radiation risk.

Always said Australia was a dictatorship in disguise. At least you know what you are getting in China!

[Ken Borough]

A mate said he saw Simon Westaway reporting on NZ TV, stating the cancellation was due to pilots not coming in on their days off to cover sickness. So now it's a poor pilots fault who is having a day off!

What an appalling response! What does this goose (:yuk::yuk:) say about Jetstar's planning and rostering practices? Then again, perhaps they just operate by the seat of their pants. It's hard to believe that the travelling public have to listen to such cr@p on top of the inconvenience of not travelling when they thought they were.

[nitpicker330]

CX have now stopped all overnights in NRT.

They were advised by Airbus/Boeing that any contaminated aircraft would be permanently stuffed!!

[A37575]

don't get paid enuf to be a charity pilot .
Every pilot has his price...

[whatdouknow]

I am sure that worksafe laws in every state suggests that you have the legal right to refuse tasks that you believe are unsafe... just do not refuse any reasonable (safe) task.

then it is up to the government authority to make a decision, if you have some facts about the issue's actual safety, no inspector would rule against you.

I heard that the US Navy were 160kms offshore off Japan about 4 days ago and the instruments on their fleet measured Radioactive material above safe levels, they left the area as soon as it became apparent.

the company must provide a workplace that is as safe as practicable.

[Black Condor]

The problem is that no one in the airline or anyone for that matter knows if the crew hotels in Narita or anywhere in Japan were damaged by the previous quakes as they suspect some buildings in Christchurch were back in Sept last year leading to their collapse this year in the subsequent quakes.

There is also the legal aspect that if injured would the airline have some get out of jail card because you knowingly and willingly accepted the duty to fly to Japan under the current circumstances?

You had the right to say no but you went anyway!

Good on those cabin crew who pulled the plug.

Then as someone also said the added risk of radiation not only of the immediate area (if that's not bad enough) but on the food that you are eating while in Japan.Who knows how or if the milk,meat,vegetables etc ..not to mention water has been affected.

If in 5 years time you contract some form of cancer how could you know or prove that it was as a result of exposure to some form of radiation while in a Japanese slip port?

I'm sure the airline would be doing their best to deny any responsibility.

[73to91]

see that this mornings SMH (Thursday) report that QF are going via HKG Qantas flights to Tokyo will stop in Hong Kong | Radiation fears (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-adds-hong-kong-stop-to-japan-flights-due-to-disruptions-20110316-1bwn1.html)


Qantas is adding Hong Kong stopovers to six flights serving Tokyo's Narita Airport after an earthquake and nuclear-power plant emergency disrupted transport links in Japan.

Tokyo flights linking Sydney and Perth will stop in Hong Kong through to March 19, according to a statement on the airline's website. There are no plans to cancel any services, spokesman Simon Rushton said.

The airline added the stop so it could swap crews in Hong Kong as there are intermittent difficulties in transporting staff to hotels in Tokyo, Rushton said.

The move is a precautionary step to ensure that employees don't have to work double shifts on the 10-hour flights between Australia and Japan.

[The Kelpie]

Well what about the Australian Government this morning advising Australian Citizens to get out and withdrawing their rescue teams?

[Skynews]

If KRudd is to be believed, they are advising Australians to leave to reduce the load on the Japanese infrastructure not due to nuclear issues or danger to people due earthquake damage in Tokyo. His comments reflect that if there is no real purpose to be there, don't be there.

[The Kelpie]

K Rudd is a polly and will be respecting the wishes of the Japanese Foreign Minister not wishing to create panic.

If it was for infrastructure reasons, Why would they extract rescue workers? Rescue Workers are the very people who are trained to deal with such things

[Skynews]

I haven't seen any reports indicating they are recalling rescue teams, apart from ensuring they are clear of the "danger zone" which the Japanese have20km and the US NRC are advising their citizens should be 80 km.

Conflicting info a real problem. Even well respected international organizations are offering conflicting advice.

[The Kelpie]

Re Rescue Teams

It has been announced but is going to be made more public over the next 24 hours.

[40Deg STH]

Maybe its too many longhaul flights across the the pacific and up to Europe ( and i just got back from one and off to the US tomorrow). When I get back, I'm off to Tokyo to help with the recovery. My family support me as do my friends. I am wish more people would do the same.
When I see fellow crew make their comments I am ashamed!!!
I have friends in Japan and as a person, CANNOT let them fend for themselves. Its not about EBA's or how much I earn, its about HUMANS.
No more excuses. Next time there is a flood or fire, you want help, just think back to where you were for others.

[breakfastburrito]

40Deg, I will give you the benefit of the doubt with the jetlag, but your post is bordering on a "rant", and appears to be unreasonable. I don't see people suggesting that we abandon people in Japan. Questions, quite legitimately need to be raised in the manner of assistance to endanger the fewest. I gave you the hint, when I asked about shuttles vs slip for Hong Kong based operators. Shuttles from numerous locations in Asia could accomplish the goal of getting people out of Tokyo, minimising the exposure of crew to potential radiation hazzards. It would appear that initially j* did not plan for this, causing a great deal of concern by the crew.

Now that both j* & qf are operating into Tokyo, as shuttles, why are you still re-posting about crew abandoning others? They aren't. Radiation exposure is a legitimate concern, particularly for those who may wish to have children in the future. With very little information or knowledge, and the possibility of being stuck in the city for an extended period of time why did j* put them in this position in the first place, when a multitude of alternatives existed? Cost. Is it the crew or the company that is the problem here? I don't see you posting any questions about j* (mis)management of this situation, you drop it all back on the crew.

[40Deg STH]

bb, fair call. Just re read my post and your correct. Its just too many years of Pprune posters who are all about "me me me".
I'm close to the situation, as I have good friends with family there. Your right, I hope all goes well.
Maybe we should just send Julia and Kev up!! I would love to see that and throw in Bob H for good measure!
Remind me to get more sleep and not look at Pprune:p

And I thought I answered your question about turnarounds or overnights, they are only doing turnarounds now.

[Advance]

The FACTS are here;

http://eq.wide.ad.jp/files_en/110328radioactivity_1900_en.pdf

They are updated regularly and there is other information and the latest radiation levels by prefecture here;

Important Information from Japanese Government (http://eq.wide.ad.jp/index_en.html)

Go down to "All Prefectures" to get the English language version and be aware that Narita airport is in Chiba prefecture.

You will find current radiation levels, whilst slightly elevated, (0.077 microsieverts per hour) are still much lower than many places in the world have each day every day and well within exposure limits for the year if you stayed there full time.

So if JQ crews are refusing to fly or overnight Narita then sack them; they are not behaving rationally at all. The actual flight itself each way will expose them to radiation equivalent to many days stopover in Narita.

[breakfastburrito]

14 days since the thread was started, 9 since the last post, what do you hope to gain by attempting to revive this thread?

[fender]

Advance, Who died and made you the expert.
There are conflicting bits of information coming from many sources and I for one would be taking the worst case scenario.
I can see it on my tombstone now,
"He gave his life for Jetstar, what a guy."

[Keg]

So if JQ crews are refusing to fly or overnight Narita then sack them; they are not behaving rationally at all.

:rolleyes:

Tremors are still occurring thus disrupting operations at airports and slip hotels. Electricity is intermittent. Food supplies are intermittent. Many restaurants are closed. I suspect the issue that J* and QF management are more concerned about is well rested crews and not impacting on the Japanese recovery efforts.