OATS JAR QUESTION BANK

[Exam Taker]

CAN ANYBODY OUT THERE LET ME BUY STEAL OR BORROW THE OXFORD AIR TRAINING BANK OF JAR ATPL QUESTIONS. KNOWING THE SYLLABUS IS NOT ENOUGH - A KNOWLEDGE OF THE AMBIGUOUS AND SILLY QUESTIONS THEY ARE ASKING IS OF CONSIDERABLE HELP. THANK YOU IN ANTICIPATION.

[taildragger2]

Hey ET.
You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours! When you get hold of the Oxford Q+A send em on to me and I'll get the PPSC lot to you. I need all the feedback I can get just like you!
..................Tailwinds............TD2

[thecoltster]

This could be interesting and helpful, as I can exchange a set of questionbank Q's in exchange for anyone elses(they're not's OATS though), let me know if you want to swap copies,

I've got some pokemon cards if your interested also!!!

COLTSTER

[This message has been edited by thecoltster (edited 12 February 2001).]

[Fille]

hey,

I have a few notes that I think will come in handy, from the ATPL tests. It covers most of the subjects, and I would be intrested in exchange some questions and feedback from previous tests.

I have got three tests to go, and I have too say I´m getting bored!

Fille

[pugzi]

If you want it, then you may be luckily enough to find a generous but imoral soul to give them to you.
Oxford do one day crash crammers (that are good) in most subjects, AND they give you the feedback! BONUS. All for a small few of £100 I think.
Just be carefull, there is such thing as copy right fraud AND advertising for purchasing using this site is banned.


Good luck

[scroggs]

If you want OATS' question bank, I suggest you talk to OATS about buying a copy. I am well aware that a certain amount of copying and exchanging goes on but, in view of copyright rules, I can't let Pprune be the marketplace for this. Please don't push it - I've had to delete one post from an advertiser looking for your money.

[TheDrop]

Amazing how screuwd the system is ... the CQB is "secret", yet some larger schools manage to duplicate it, and sell it. Either online, via books, or via the advertising effect of attracting new students, knowing they have "it".

The education is very good in the ATPL schools, but it wouldn't look good if all students passed the exams, would it ? So, the JAA have to build in some stupid questions that noone can answer correct.

Because of these stupido questions, several companies make a living of gathering and selling "notes", "preps" or whatever they all call it.

How about if I say these companies are stealing off the copyright of JAA ? The "CQB publishers" are just ripping the JAA CQB !

[TheMagus]

To the best of my knowledge nobody is selling questions from the JAA question bank.
What OATS are selling is, as far as I know, the result of feedback from students who have done the exams.

If OATS have made the effort of getting feedback from their students and compiling a question bank from that, then they have every right to be upset if people go around selling the stuff.

[TheDrop]

Oh, sure, they are memorizing questions and writing them down, but the author is really the JAA.

What I am really saying is that the only reason there is a need for this questiong selling business is because there are so many questions that are either wrong, outside learning objectives, impossible to understand, type specific, going into too much detail (not covered by any ATPL books) et cetera.

If these questions were taken out of the CQB, you could concentrate on learning the stuff - now, the only way to get through ATPL is using a shadow question bank and cross your fingers that you won't get too many of the wicked questions.

Imagine students are using time and capacity for JAA (mis)interpretations rather than the subject in itself.

[Keith.Williams.]

I'm afraid you are completely missing the point about feedback TD.
It should be viewed as a resource rather than as an additional burden.

The introduction of the JAR exams represented a step increase in terms of degree of difficulty. In the first few months the pass rates were pretty dreadful, with no students passing in some subjets. This was partly because of the increased degree of difficulty, but mainly due to the fact that the FTO's intrepretations of the objectives differed from those of the examiners. The collection of feedback enabled the FTOs to modify their courses and this, together with a period of fairly liberal upgrading of results, enabled things to improve to a more acceptable level.

Their in-house examination centre gave OATs an advantage in terms of collecting feedback, so their database was initially far superior to those of the other schools. But the migration of students and feedback between schools has gradually corrected this situation, such that most of the schools now have quite good feedback lists. Unfortuantely most of these lists still do not include any written explanations of the answers.

A further problem is that the lists tend to be handed out only during the consolidation phase of the courses, so students do not see them until two or three weeks before the exams.

For students to gain maximum benefit from feedback, it should be used throughout the course. This will enable them to build up their knowledge and understanding gradually, rather than trying to correct weaknesses in the last few weeks. In residential courses, each lesson should start and end with a brief period of question and answer practice using realistic questions. In addition to this, the self-assessed exercises and assessed exercise in both residential and distance learning courses should be based on feedback questions. Finally, those students who fail the exams are most likely to improve their performance by practicing with the largest possible number of feedback questions answers and explanations.

[Cron]

Some time ago now Gedi set up a bulletin board, sectioned appropriately, for postings of questions to be made by ourselves for ourselves.

From memory there was one contributor apart from myself. The initiative died This approach is still surely workable?

Discuss

[pugzi]

Keith Williams

Am I getting you right here. Your suggesting teaching the students just upon the questions, so that they can pass them.
Wow, you clearly have no concept of instructing or testing standards in a general view (not just airline testing).
That is narrow minded, sorry for the tone.
What if there was a problem a student encountered in real life, but there was never a question about it. How is he supposed to deal with that. "oh sorry, i dont know what to do, never got tested on that".
I've taken it to the extreme, but apart from the America FAA testing system, not one other eductational organisation IN THE WORLD gives the questions for you to learn, that must surely say something!. To gain knowledge that way is flawed.
You give students the whole spectrum of knowledge, and if it's good enough, they will pass the test.
You certainly dont get a rounded knowledge by looking at just the pecularities of the JAA questions, those are the oddest questions and testing in the world. This makes it even more vital NOT to teach the student that way!.
Sorry, to sound a bit etchy, I have been around long enough and taught long enough that understanding, not remembering is the key.
At Oxford they give you the feedback near the end, for exactly this reason. Understand first, then look at the questions to TEST KNOWLEDGE, not to test you on your ability to remember questions.

[TheDrop]

Pugzi,

I would like to comment,

I agree with you that it shouldn't be necessary to look at the questions. The problem is that the education is so good they have to make a lot of "stupid" questions for the tests to make some students fail. If all students pass they take it not as a good education, but as a too easy test.

I don't know what subject(s) you are teaching, but a lot of the stuff today IS really massive memorizing, like IFR system minima (80 different RVRs total to be memorized). In this case you can't talk about understanding, but only raw memorizing.

For other stuff you don't know what level of detail the questions will be just by looking at learning objectives. This was causing most of the problems in the beginning af JAA ATPL testing. Who ever knew that not only did you have to know all the GPWS modes (fair enough) but you also had to remember what number they have in the table, like 1,2,3,4a,4b,5,6a or 6b ! If a pilot gets a "Terrain, terrain, pull up!", I am sure the first thing he will do is wander what number that mode is - NOT ! No-one would be able to guess that from the learning objectives, without seeing the questions first.

The ideal system would be easier tests, less memorizing of "unnecessary" stuf that no-one ever uses anyway (who cares - other than the relevant constructors - about the dimensions of the stripes on break-in points or what paint is used for runway markings, really !). On this case there would be no need for 3rd party question banks, because if you just read the book, followed the courses and studied for yourself, you would pass the test.

Just my 10 P worth is not enough here, I think I used for at least one pound here ...

[Keith.Williams.]

Pugzi,

You are correct in suggesting that your tone is a bit over the top.

I think you need to read my post again. I have never suggested that students should just learn the answers to a limited range of questions. Had you ever been one of my students, you would have found that I go to great lengths to ensure that students actually understand the subject. An ex SFT student for example, who once came to PPSC for some POF consolidation was heard tp cry "I can actually understand POF", after one of my lectures.

The point of my previous post is that there is little point in handing out feedback questions only during the last few weeks before the examinations. This leaves the students with very little time to get into the same mind set as the examiners. It is an unfortunate fact that the current exams are often such that it is entirely possible to have a good understanding of the subject and still fail the exams. Just look at the examples of the battery life questions that have appeared in pprune recently. Anyone with more than a cursory knowledge of the subject would find it difficult to pick the required answer, because they would see the faults in each option.

[Megaton]

Keith's absolutely correct. Actually understanding the subject will not always help you with the JAR questions. You've got to know which answer the examiners thinks is correct. It's a case of suspending reality for a few weeks with some of the questions!

[TheDrop]

I wished some of the JAA QCB authors were here to comment. Or those that decide on how the questions should be ...

It would be interesting to hear their point of view.

[pugzi]

Keith and The Drop

Your right, I'm sorry.
Like you, I'm passionate at what I do, and like you I teach for understanding. It is the only way. Then tinker with the knowledge to satisfy the oddities of the JAA.
I get similar exaltations from all students, and it's why I teach. I live for the day the eyes open and you see the peeny drop!.

Sorry to have got your back up.



:rolleyes:

[TheDrop]

Sorry, Pugzi, but I can't make out what you are saying. Could you put it another way, where a non-native English can follow ?

Thanks,