Cathay and Cadet "Bonding"

[Northern Harrier]

Cathay is now instituting a de facto "bonding" of cadet entry pilots.

[jed_thrust]

Bonding yes, but with CX's money.

More like "Golden Handcuffs".

[Clear_sky]

They will be trying it on for good reason too. With the recent Hainan Group aircraft order, it is likley some of those aircraft will go to Hong Kong airlines.

Considering some of the CX cadets have already gone to Hong Kong Airlines, I won't be suprised if more shift across in the future for higher pay, more job satisfaction and much faster career progression.

HKD$33000 and no housing. It's not hard to do better than that.

[cxlinedriver]

Under HKG law one can not bond an employee. I have heard that 9 cadets have quit in the last 2 months. After profit share I expect more to jump (good on them!).

So as a work around company propose a 'forgivable loan' of approx HKD1mill. Each cadet 'spends' some of this loan for training. No experience - spend it all, Advanced Entry training they spend HKD500,00 or so, and Transition Training spend HKD200,00 approx. Cadet gets to hold on to the balance. After 6 years service the forgivable loan will have been 'repaid'.

So, yet again, CX management are trying to get around HKG law. I hope this is challenged.

If you want to retain staff, reward them. Don't use mafia tactics.

[Sqwak7700]

What if you take the 1 million and just book-off. Cathay is not a banking institution, so what can they do about it?

Seriously, why don't they just pay people appropriately. Maybe the AOA should use the discrimination order to sue Cathay for not providing this loan to everybody. We need to do something about this. :yuk:

[Clear_sky]

I stand corrected.
HKD$33,000 + Housing between 10-36K per month + Joining Bribe. :rolleyes:

36K Housing for a senior captain. Where do I sign.

[Scoreboard]

See the latest crew notice....local guys starting s/o and upwards are getting housing in the form of an allowance. Hot on the heels of a rumored local captain just resigning

[AQIS Boigu]

If you join with proper aviation exprerience (such as Caribou time with Capt Toss as your squadron leader) you could call this significant amount a "joining bonus" - NOT :=

[JayTee777300]

So let me get this straight...

For example...

- You are Aussie GA guy with reasonable hours/experience (say a couple of thousand and an ATPL/CPL - basically what they were taking as SO's a couple of years ago)

- The only job CX are offering you right now is SO under the new 'Advanced Cadet Entry'

- They send you to Adelaide for the one month 'Advance Cadet Course' and technically LOAN you the money ($550,000) for the training.

- If you decide HK or CX sucks and decide to leave for greener pastures before your 6 year bond is up they expect you to pay the $550,000 training loan back?

Thats AWESOME! Where do I sign up? So at $33,000/mth, that $550,000 = 16 months salary - so if you decide to leave CX before 16 months is up you will effectively be paying CX for the privilege of working for them and leave with less money than what you came with 16 months earlier!

Is this true?

You had better be sure you and your family love Cathay/Hong Kong/being an SO before you come - because if this is true you are trapped here for minimum 6 years!

This is by far the most devious tactic yet by Cathay. Yet in the Notice that management published, they've made it look good with all kinds of window dressing around it such as the whopping $10,000 housing allowance (which gets you something approximates a small public toilet in HK).

If this is true then this is appalling... the word needs to get out on this to make sure the young fellas aren't deceived like CX is always trying to do to everyone else.

(You will note that I haven't talked about the $550,000 you get to keep, because we are talking about bonding here... so if you leave inside 6yrs you will actually be paying $1.1mil even though you only put $550,000 in your pocket! ie. you still end up $550,000 worse off!)

[meanagre]

Cathay has always bonded cadets, this is not new. The 1500+ hr pilot is eligible for CTT program not the AE program and the course is only 8 weeks not 32. At then end of the first year the pilot can draw down 880000 as loan, that need not be paid back if you stay for a minimum of 6 years.

Lets compare this to JQ, that you have to pay app 150000AUD for the training and then work your backside off to pay it back, effectively flying for peanuts.

CX is still the best gig in town...IMHO

[aztec2008]

Conditions get better and you buggers still whinge, unbelievable. If you don't want to be bonded for 6 years don't come. It's hardly unfair with the cash Cathay invests in cadets to want to keep them for at least a few years so Emirates doesn't come try poach guys whom Cathay has paid good money to get up to scratch. Yes, it's different to the way it used to work (housing and A-Scale) but my god, you sound like children. It ain't affecting your conditions so run along and complain about how the money for the new aircraft ordered should have been used in your profit share.

[cxlinedriver]

Not true.

CX have tried to make the cadets think they are bonded, by getting them to sign an agreement of return of service. BUT, this contract is NOT valid as the cadet does not get access to legal advice and an employee can NOT be bonded under HKG Law.

With cadets leaving for better employers (any other airline) after they finish training, the company is trying to trap them with this mafia embrace. A good company would improve conditions to retain staff.

[flyhardmo]

Aztec wake up
Conditions get better and you buggers still whinge, unbelievable.
B scale to C scale doesn't constitute better conditions.

The only reasons conditions got better with the international cadet program was because there wasn't enough takers for the $h!t conditions. Almost all DESO in the hold file rejected Cathays offer. If no body takes this offer then maybe they'll go back to original housing.

It ain't affecting your conditions
You really believe that don't you. What a very short sighted attitude you have of CX management.:ugh:

[404 Titan]

aztec2008

You aren’t even here yet and you’re trying to tell us it won’t affect those already here. I suggest you do a little research sunshine before you open your mouth and post here in future as you're embarrassing yourself. CX has a well documented history of introducing new COS and using it to lower existing pilots COS. There are a lot of past and present “A” scalers who would argue that “B” scale had a huge detriment to their own COS. History is clearly on their side and you’re clearly mouthing off on a subject you have no knowledge about. :ugh:

[12wheeler]

It ain't affecting your conditions

By Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.


Feel free to swap "Socialists", "Trade Unionists", "Jews" for "New joiners", "A-scalers", "B-scalers", "CEP"....etc

:ugh:

[aztec2008]

What I see is B scalers whingeing about C scalers when they did the exact same thing in taking reduced conditions when they joined, double standards are alive and well. Until it does start looking to affect you then what's the point in getting involved, people will take what they signed on for as the conditions at joining were pretty obvious. If this equals enough newbies for Cathay then good on them. Just be happy with what you have and worry about something maybe a little more important.
Of course I will step back entirely if someone can prove to me that a cadet taking the current offer is reducing conditions for current guys, but to this point no one has been able to explain that. Anyone with a conscience would think it's not at all fair if they were reducing someone elses pay for their own benefit.
Flyhardmo, I'm not talking about b-c, that's pretty obviously a step down the ladder, I'm talking about guys who signed up for c to start with.

[geh065]

Aztec,

No, I think what you are seeing is B scalers whinging about a lower pay scale for all new pilots, despite that fact that it has no effect on them either way, something the A scalers are often criticised for 'allowing' to happen when they were around. (Whether this is in fact what happened when B scale was introduced is an old debate.)

You should actually be saying that it is GOOD current pilots are thinking about the T&Cs of new joiners even though it doesn't affect them.

[404 Titan]

aztec2008

You truly are an idiot. Your level of thought is purely on the 1st level of industrial relations. You have the total inability to think something through to its final conclusion which is usually at the 3rd to 5th level. The reality is that it is only because of us, existing CX pilots, warning the likes of you that the iCad deal was grossly substandard and would leave the successful cadet in severe financial stress that the company has had to sweeten the deal. They haven’t done this through the goodness of their heart. They have done it because they have been grossly underwhelmed with suitable applicants. Most sensible people could see this though. The fact is the new deal still is grossly inadequate because:

1. The housing is still grossly substandard and is 100% taxable.
2. The housing isn’t indexed to the Hong Kong Government Rental Index, therefore isn’t indexed for inflation.
3. Once you have completed 6 year of service the “forgivable Loan” will be 100% taxable as it will then be deemed income by the IRD. It won’t matter if you were a long track cadet and used the entire loan for your training. It will be deem income and taxed at the highest rate.

Shall I go on? If you want to be taken seriously sunshine, you had better start thinking past the end of your nose.

[aztec2008]

I thank you for your feedback 404, I truly am an idiot. But yeah thanks geh, that actually explained it fairly well, from my perspective it was all a little backwards but I was looking at it the wrong way. It just seems like that I guess with the personal attacks that go on against the guys in the wannabe forum.

[Green T2]

Aztec,
Your correct about one thing, it's an improvement. But woefully inadequate! Your sign on bonus is about equal to one years worth of income under the former housing scheme payments(entitement 25 years). With a six year forgivable term if you take the bonus. If your beside yourself to serverely short change your housing allowance while working at CX, take the offer. But fortunately many of your compatriates have realized its a raw deal and given it the respect it deserves.

[Brown Nose]

I was wondering who was the one idiot out of 60 icadets that accepted the original sh!t deal. Now I don't have to

[aztec2008]

I was wondering too where all the grumpy old gits were coz I never seemed to see them around HK. It appears they were on their computers spouting nonsensical jabberings because their lives have turned to **** after their wives left along with their youth. Thank god you're the minority (and yes, you are the minority as much as you might like to believe otherwise).

[404 Titan]

aztec2008
Thank god you're the minority (and yes, you are the minority as much as you might like to believe otherwise).
And how do you substantiate that comment? The reality is that the vast majority of CX pilots don’t post here, true, but I can assure you the vast majority certainly talk about it and agree 100% with what has been posted here. You can stick your head in the sand if you like but don’t you dare whinge to us as you surely will when things start getting tough. You have been warned.

[Brown Nose]

.....a couple of corrections to your post my friend;

Not old
Not grumpy
Not a git
I'm in hong kong when not on a trip
Happily married to my first wife
In fact having a lovely HAPPY Sunday afternoon with my family in a substantial house in a great development provided by Cathay

.....certainly better than you will get on your ****e deal

But if you are happy for all us guys on better deals to stop complaining on your behalf for a better deal for you, so be it.

[Mooseflyer]

1 out of 60 (allegeldy) calling someone else the "minority" - that's funny stuff....

[AnAmusedReader]

cxlinedriver, sorry but you are wrong. There is no law in HK that says an employer cannot bond an employee. A bond is no more than part of an offer of employment and if the applicant accepts the offer, he is accepting a bond. As always, CX tries to make the sour taste sweet by calling it a forgivable loan.

[JayTee777300]

AZTEC.

Further to what GEH says and to put things back on a more civil footing, because you think B scalers are against the C scalers, you have it all wrong. I only post on here because I am trying to help all new joiners who come after me.

I don't want to be sitting in the seat beside another guy doing exactly the same job as me for less then 1/3rd the pay - which is what this deal constitutes - (as I'm sure A-scalers never found joy in sitting beside B-scalers earning far less) and sure, I do firmly believe that any lower pay-scale will further erode my own conditions so I guess that means we are all in it together (when management are talking pay do you really think they are saying "Gee... how do we bring these C-scale guys up to B-scale level" or is it the other way round "How do we bring these B-scalers down to C-scale level" much like they have done to the A-scalers over time).

This is not B-scalers vs C-scalers. This is current employees trying to protect new joiners, because we have seen the way the company works. Don't get me wrong... this is a great company with many many great aspects. But in some aspects, with regard to pay, conditions and contracts they can be downright sneaky (just ask any SO's who were told when they joined not to worry about all the DEFO's joining after them, as they would receive bypass pay. Only to have the company dispute the very contract it provided them saying that the section that pretty clearly says "you will receive bypass pay for any DEFO that joins after you" doesn't actually mean you will get bypass pay for any DEFO that joins after you! - but this is a topic for another thread).

So please believe me when I say we are on the side of new joiners, and many good people are doing their best to try and protect the interests of all pilots at CX.

This deal is not an improvement in conditions. Say a company pays $10,000USD a month to it's employees... but due to some financial crisis it decides it doesn't need to hire for a while. So it takes advantage of the situation and says it will now only pay $1,000USD a month. No one comes - but the company doesn't care because it doesn't actually need anyone. As things start picking up a couple of months later it says it will pay $2,000USD a month. Would this be considered an improvement in conditions? Sure it's 100% better than last months offer - but it's only 20% of the original pay deal. This is not an improvement, it's just management being tricky and testing the waters to see who is dumb enough to take the offer. (Of course these figures above are just round numbers I have used to illustrate the point)

[JayTee777300]

So... CX have gotten around this issue of bonding by not using the word "bonding", but instead giving you a loan for something that was provided free before.

I note that the offer is pretty light on details. As we know with CX, the devil is in the details, and what their lawyers think they can win later when you end up in court. There are a lot of questions one should ask about this "forgivable loan" before signing on. Alas the answers are only available in the small print - which I haven't seen, CX won't provide to you until you have gone through all the effort of recruiting and have a job offer (this is what I have been told anyway).

An example of some of the questions one should ask, that I have thought of off the top of my head, that think are important (I will say here the loan is $30,000AUD because that is the minimum loan that applies only to the CTT guys. Cadet and Advanced cadet are $80,000AUD and $160,000AUD, respectively, exchange rate dependant):


So it is compulsory that everyone joining CX take a minimum of a $30k AUD loan to pay for their training, even for the most experienced person? YES
Do you have to repay it if you leave before 6 years? YES
If they leave within 6 years is the repayment amount pro-rated or you get stung for the whole lot?
It mentions that I need to finish a probation period to receive the cash portion, but doesn't mention when the training portion is considered borrowed. Am I up for the $30k from day one of training, or when I am checked to line, or at any other intermediate milestone in the training?
As it is considered a loan, is there any kind of repayment schedule to show how much is payed off each month? Don't know. It is in the small print.
What if I choose to leave mid way through training?
What happens if I fail my training?
What happens if I fail my upgrade later?
What happens if CX let me go?
What happens if I lose my license and CX let me go?
What happens if I have to leave HK/CX for valid personal/family reasons?
What happens if I or my wife/family hate the place?
What happens if my child gets sick in HK and we have to leave? (Yes it happens plenty)
Do I get anything more for my $30k than a worthless P2X rating? No
If I leave and have to pay back the $30k, and I don't have $30k in my pocket, what is they repayment schedule? Do I have to pay a lump sum, pay in one year, or do I have the rest of my life to pay it back?

There a lot of unknowns there and that’s just the ones I could think up immediately. And CX are not interested in giving you time to read it and address any of these questions. Now as you know with CX, if it is unwritten or you just don't know, then you have to assume the worst case scenario. For example: is the repayment amount pro-rated with time? Common sense would say yes. But if I don't see it written I would assume worse case of NO - if you quit at 5 years and 6 months CX will come after the whole $30k.

So they have made a complex deal with lots of intricacies and small print (something you should really have a lawyer look at - because effectively signing a contract with a $30,000AUD downside to it for you), then won't show it to you until after you have spent a lot of your own time, money and effort to get the job. Then when they do they say "here it is - you need to sign and reply in a week".

They are relying on the fact that you will hopefully be young and dumb or desperate enough to sign without thinking to hard and then they have you. I have a new term for it - they used to call it "Golden Handcuffs" because they held you here by buying you a house. Now it's just the plain old "Iron Handcuffs" because they aren't actually giving you anything, but if you leave you have to pay them!

Now I understand CX wanting some kind of "Return Of Service" (ROSO) for training a cadet who turns up at the age of 18yo with zero hours. Many other airlines and militaries do that. But now they are trying to do that with experienced guys who have ATPLS and 1500+ hrs, telling them that 10 dutchess hrs, some sim, and a worthless P2X are worth $30,000AUD. Many of these guys have already served another ROSO elsewhere, or paid for their own training out of their own pocket and served their time flying tractor parts around the outback, now to be bonded again with another $30,000 debit hanging over their head.

It is bollox.

[Liam Gallagher]

All very valid questions that need to be asked; to which I shall add;

- regarding the portion of the "loan" forgiven/ repaid for each year of service, is it declared by CX to HKIRD as taxable income paid to the cadet: if not, why not?

- Should the forgiven loan be deemed taxable income, who will pay such tax, the cadet or the company?

- Should the cadet been deemed liable to pay tax on the forgiven loan, will said cadet be able to afford food?

[Voiceofreason]

Indeed good questions all. Have they actually been asked, and what was the response if so?

[ChinaBeached]

If you go to the other "I'm Naive iCadet" based threads none of the answers will matter. Look at the numbers applying BEFORE this was offered, let alone even knowing the answers to these questions anyway. These kids would still do it for less anyway, hell for free if they thought it would get them into the pants of a jet. They call it "dedicated" and "passionate"....just like a 6 year old is about joining the circus. One child posted that we should all understand his position and appreciate that he is willing to "take one for the team" and "we all have to start somewhere" just like we ("you") all did, and "Can anyone tell me where other cadetships are that I may apply to?". Steam came from my ears. No, I never sold out on myself, colleagues or future you arrogant prat. Want me to write out the application for you, sit the interview for you, or hold your hand as we go onto a thing called the "tarmac"? I worked my arse off, studied my arse off, accumulated more than a few thousand hrs in RHS and LHS of light singles, twins and turboprops in the "hope" of making the grade that CX [then] demanded, only to be told 3 years later a kid will do it for 60% less and with zero flying experience. Didn't reply on that thread as computers don't permit virtual slapping about the forehead. Plus, this comment is more tame than the one I would like to have written.

Others state that the iCadet path is better than FO on a commuter jet in the States or Capt on a ATR in Europe. And, it perhaps it is SHORT TERM. BUT... will the FO RJ job or Capt ATR lead you to better things, better income, better career over 5+ years, going to 20+ years? I dare say it would over a P2X rating and building zero real hours for 3 to 5, maybe 7 years. These guys look short term, not long term and the realities of the decision such as living expenses, family, kids, education, retirement, etc. They look at the smiley offer, not the recent past history of CX's immoral and devious management practices. If it quacks like a duck.....?

Sort of like a $USD 20 cover charge that gives you a "free drink". A free drink you say!!??

This offer & entire situation reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Bart keeps going for the electrified cupcake......