Jetstar cadets grounded

[Muff Hunter]

Heard on the grapevine today that the checked to line jetstar cadets have been grounded UFN!!!!!

Interesting leading up to the next round of hearings at the senate!

[The Kelpie]

I hope Jetstar is going to continue to pay them.

Is that due to the very heavy landing in the Gold Coast.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Low and Fast]

Kelpie

Can you fill in the gaps?

[The Kelpie]

No but intend to find out.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Mstr Caution]

Must be a different reason!

MR stated at the Senate Inquiry he had complete faith in the J* Cadet program.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

I hope Jetstar is going to continue to pay them.

Really? Maybe just enough to pay back the bank.:uhoh:

FRQ CB

[Popgun]

If true, then it will be great to see experienced guys sitting in the hold pool given a start date...hopefully on the Aussie EBA...

[Mr. Hat]

Put the champagne away guys I'm sure the BB AJ duo will find other ways.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Can somebody please enlighten me? Given that the scheme was only announced a few months ago I assumed that none of these guys could have been line checked already.

Does this also mean that there are a bunch of kids sitting on the ground at their flying school wondering what Jet Star is doing with their 'hard earned' cash?

FRQ CB

[The Kelpie]

CB

That is exactly the position.

Trying to find out if Oxford / CTC have suspended recruitment / training?

More to follow

The Kelpie

[WannaBeBiggles]

Does this affect all the cadets or only the ab-initio guys and girls?

[The Kelpie]

The only cadets that are undertaking line training at the moment are graduates of the Advanced Cadet Program. If confirmed to be the case it is these that have been grounded.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[shnee]

Would part of the reason for grounding the cadets be, because the ops manual states. All initial intake pilots require: 1500hr total time, 500hr on multi-engine aircraft & 250hr PIC.

However saying this, there is a clues that states: In some circumstances the Chief Pilot may determine that a pilot is sufficiently qualified and experienced for recruitment with less than the qualifications and experience.

So, if all of this is stated in their ops manual and no other internal company memos have been released which overrides the ops manual, are Jetstar operating illegally?

This is just my two cents worth, and I would hazard a guess that they have put in steps to side step the ops manual and legally(not safely) operate the cadets in Australia.

Now, I'm not going the man I am going the ball. Having seen and talked to the cadets I personally believe the Jetstar cadet system is rubbish, and if Jetstar do require and cadet system then it should be modelled off say that of Qantas. Where after gaining you CPL you go off and fly for a regional for two years, then you come back to Qantas and fly as an SO.

Safe flying.


Shnee.

[Mr. Hat]

...or is it can't work in NZ because of min requirements and can't work in Aus because not being paid in accordance with Aus IR laws.

Suddenly they are grounded. Bet you that wasn't the plan.

Senator Xenophon you are spoiling the party with all this legal stuff!

Are the illegal overseas FA's next?

[Artificial Horizon]

I haven't heard anything about this, but if it has happened I would think that it would be because of issues similar to those outlined by 'Mr Hat'. The cadets are all New Zealand employees and are 'based' in New Zealand but have been temporarily based in Australia due to the NZCAA saying 'no' to them flying here until they have 500 hours on line. Rumour I heard was that Jetstar were forging on with the cadet scheme despite misgivings from the NZ CAA as CASA had approved it, Jetstar knew talks were being held between CASA and NZCAA but carried on anyway until told they had to stop, I am guessing they have now been told to stop. :=

[Mstr Caution]

I'd say AH & Mr Hat are probably on the money.

I dont think J* Flt OPs would have pulled the cadets off line themselves, some other entity has told them to.

Whether that's QF safety, CASA or QF Legal, is yet to be disclosed.

Like I mentioned in another post M.R stated in the Senate Inquiry his complete faith in the cadet process.

MC

[The Kelpie]

MR is a shiver waiting for a spine waiting to run up.

He will do or say whatever BB tells him too.

I think CASA should be looking at him and deciding if he is indeed a 'fit and proper person' to hold this office.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[c173]

anyone confirm? ive heard its not true from a cadet thats on line now

[DashQ]

So I've been in the hold pool since mid 2010. How many of us are there and is it time to move on? Is there a limit to the amount of time we can be in the pool before having to re-interview?

[Muff Hunter]

It's offically a problem with the dodgey NZ contract.

The checked to line cadets cannot operate in OZ until they have an OZ contract or are employed on the EBA.

Got this from a mate at JQ who looked up one of the cadets on rockape and saw that he was SOC.......

What the fark are these idiots doing at this sorry excuse for an airline???:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[bubble.head]

This is such a story for mainstream newspaper!

[QFinsider]

That is a classic...

Makes the terms of the Senate inquisition even more juicy. Get Brucey and the other wee man in there and answer a few more questions...

I hope Ben sees it!

[The Kelpie]

It will be interesting if JQ try and get them to fly on the EBA because the rate for a Junior FO is a lot less than the rate for a narrow body FO with allowances on the Modern Pilots Award 2010.

The JQ EBA was entered into before the 2010 Award was introduced and I would imagine that the award takes precedence given it reflects the minimum wage and conditions allowed to be paid by employers in Australia.

More to Follow

the Kelpie

ps. I also have it on extremely good authority that Jetstar recruitment and Oxford were told of the dodginess of the NZ Cadet Contract back in November last year by one of the applicants for the cadet programme and chose to ignore it.

A bit of advice offerred to the current cadets: If the company intends you to continue flying for the time being, get employed on the Award and refuse to move off it at the end of your line training....and join the Union NOW!!!!!

[The Green Goblin]

Why don't the unions just put out a memo to all members stating that they are not to fly within 100nm of an aeroplane that is crewed by non EBA Pilots doing domestic sectors, or Pilots with less than the prescribed minima in the ops manual.

[mcgrath50]

and join the Union NOW!!!!!

You can't until you are employed by a company. The Jetstar (and even Qantas guys) aren't officially employed.

Although I do agree the unions (AFAP and AIPA) should do more to grab the entry level guys post CPL before going off to their first job, would stop the non-unionisation of GA companies as well.

[The Kelpie]

The Jetstar (and even Qantas guys) aren't officially employed.



I don't understand. Can you explain please?

[Mr. Hat]

Ok this to me looks like a big company blatantly breaking the law. Wilfully pushing ahead with something that is actually illegal and only stopped because there happened to be a Senate Inquiry into the matter. What other gems are awaiting?

Suggest the Senate Inquiry be broadened to other parts of the industry.

I don't know who accountable but there must be some people in government that need a close looking at: FWA, CASA, Albanese.

We've also got people telling fibs in an Inquiry. At the same time there's Jet Connect and not long ago it was price fixing and cartels. Foreign FA's doing domestic sectors on overseas money.

Then QF international guys are rolling up their sleeves for a fight whilst engineers around the group are pushing eachother out of the way to have a go

Is it just me or have the QF shareholders got a legitimate gripe here. (Yeah I'm one of them and not too impressed!)

[The Kelpie]

Here Here Mr hat

We should widen the enquiry or have a new enquiry about off-shoring and how it circumvents the Migration Regulations, the very legislation that is in place to manage Australias growth in a controlled manner.

I feel that the Pandoras box has been opened and AJ and BB are trying to shut the lid, Quickly!!!

More to Follow

the Kelpie

[Mstr Caution]

Agree with you Mr Hat.

Adding to your list that a pilot body also unanimously had a no confidence vote of their CEO.

I was also speaking with an QF international baggage handler who said PIA was likely mid year when their EA expires.

[metrosmoker]

Your revelations are mind blowing kelpie.


You have the good authority, the big news, revelations that are going to bring the airline to a holt.
And all you come up with join a Union.
Great work. Your a genius!

[The Kelpie]

No metrosmoker, I actually feel that these guys are victims and they made a mistake getting involved with such a scheme. I am merely offering advice on what they can do next as I fear their world is about to fall apart!!

[no one]

Metrosmoker, surely having them (and all pilots) join the union is not a bad thing.
If everyone was in it then conditions would have to improve, or at least not go further and further backwards.

[The Green Goblin]

If the cadets are kicked out in the street, this is not what I want to hear. After all, they are just like us - just a little more green.

Perhaps the union should pursue a hiring guarantee once they are able to hold an ATPL or meet the minimum hour requirement.

If this is not offered, then a class action should be instigated to recover their training costs (hopefully out of executive renumeration).

GG

['holic]

Sorry Metrosmoker, you're/your/yaw the genius :D. Apart from bringing the airline to a holt (would that be Harold?), now is exactly the time the cadets need to join a union.

I'm sure with Jetstar's proven track record of looking after their employees best interests they'll be fine ....... but, you know, just in case.

[Mstr Caution]

Since there is a consistant standard across the group, these guys & girls would have done the same or similar testing as a Qantas Cadet to get onto the J* course.

They would now all hold a Commercial Licence, Multi Engine Command Instrument Rating & ATPL theory subjects & the A320 endorsement.

These qualifications are the same as those attained from the Qantas Cadet Commercial Program. (except for the jet endorsement)

So, put them in Mainline as Second Officers perhaps the A330 & for screwing them around J* can pay for their A330 endorsement & wages until such time as no pilot surplus exists in mainline.

Or like GG said a class action to recover their costs.

Joyce created the problem, he should fix it or pay them back.

[The Kelpie]

Hey MC I said give them a hand out, not a free ticket to stardom.

They are young and must learn to handle the consequences of their actions. Simply handing them a mainline position would send out the wrong message and would piss off those QF cadets that were, and still are out in the cold.

More to follow

The Kelpie

[Hugh Jarse]

Mstr Caution,

There is NOT a consistent standard applied across the group for stage 1,2 and 3 recruiting. While QF, JQ and the regionals all sit the same screening, the criteria is "adjusted" to suit each airline.

So, just because a candidate passed the JQ screening does not necessarily mean that he/she would have been deemed acceptable to other "group" airlines. It depends upon the "weighting" of scores.

The only component which is standard across the group is the sim ride. That's assuming JQ haven't "tweaked" it in the last 3 years since I left the group.

[Mr. Hat]

Line of the year:

I'm sure with Jetstar's proven track record of looking after their employees best interests they'll be fine ....... but, you know, just in case.


Put them in QF? No, join a union let them fight it. Then off into ga/military like the rest of us. Sorry if thats harsh but its the reality we dealt with.

Im sure they'll get a job in J* eventually - more than likely under EBA conditions.

Then again, the Senate Inquiry might direct them into ga/military as mentioned above. There ARE no short cuts there IS no such thing as a low cost airline. Everything has a cost. You pay to minimise risk.

Is this industry about to get a monumental wake up call? About time.

[OhForSure]

MSTR CAUTION:

With the very utmost respect, there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO correlation between QF Mainline cadet testing/selection process and JQ's. I know this for CERTAIN.

The testing company is different. The skills testing is different. The interview process is different. The candidates they are after are different. The cadet training program is VERY DIFFERENT.

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

The testing process is different by a country mile.

You can be the brightest most adapt pilot on this blue planet but if you aren't happy about paying $37K or whatever rip-off price it is now for the rating then you're next to useless.

The Jetstar selection process is yet another disgusting scam. They have a fake HR department just to make it seem legit.

[Fliegenmong]

Oh Dear....all these calls for joining a Union:=.......I was led to believe that Unions and Union Bosses were very bad.....very bad indeed:sad:......Tony Abbot & the Libs repeatedly tell me so ;).....(OK they forget to tell us the AMA are essentially a Union, but that's a different story.....:rolleyes:)....strange times indeed

[mcgrath50]

To clarify,

Qantas Cadets and Jetstar Cadets are not employed by either airline or the group. They have signed a contract but it is merely a set of rules (don't be stupid, turn up to classes, don't turn up drunk, respect everyone etc. etc.). The job at the end is merely a promise dependent on economic conditions and personnel performance.

Therefore they can't join the union as far as I understand.

The testing for the Jetstar Cadetship is largely handled by the training organisations, for Qantas it is handled in house using the same process (although as someone already said possibly different weighting) as the DE guys minus the sim.

[maggotdriver]

From Wiktionary

Noun
coalition (plural*coalitions)
A temporary group or union of organizations, usually formed for a particular advantage.

Sorry, I put coalition in commy red!

Party
A political group considered as a formal whole, united under one specific political platform of issues and campaigning to take part in government.

Don't ever forget that they don't usually vote for their individual constituencies and cross the floor as allowed by the constitution but as a UNION! ;)

Sorry for the thread drift! If they are in breach of the Australian regs (ignoring Ops Manual requirements), any chance of CASA being required to investigate after a cair report?

[OhForSure]

Mcgrath50 has hit it on the head.

JQ Cadet testing is merely excercies organised by the training organisations themselves. They have changed the process a few times already. QF Cadet selection is very similar to Direct Entry selection but with a greater emphasis on acedemics, personality and motivation.

[4dogs]

mcgrath50,

My copy of the contract states that the employer is Jetstar Airways Limited [NZBN: 1263469] and the job is as a Cadet Pilot.

This NZ incorporated company is a wholly owned ($2?) subsidiary of Mother Qantas, see:

View All Details (http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/1263469/detail?backurl=%2Fcompanies%2Fapp%2Fui%2Fpages%2Fcompanies%2 F1263469%3Fbackurl%3D%252Fcompanies%252Fapp%252Fui%252Fpages %252Fcompanies%252Fsearch%253Fmode%253Dstandard%2526type%253 Dentities%2526q%253D1263469)

The burning question is: what are the contractual arrangements between the two wholly owned subsidiaries, one Australian and one Kiwi, that puts the cadets on the flight deck of Australian registered aircraft?

Did AFAP (as respondent to the Jetstar EBA) agree to the displacement of Jetstar Oz pilots or did nobody care because it only affects Jetstar Oz FOs?

There are several ways to achieve the result, all of which involve consultation with the pilot group, if Jetstar was of the corporate mind to engage with its staff. Given that AJ is a member of all the subsidiary boards and "the directing mind and will" of the wholly owned subsidiaries (all the other Directors are his employees!), that would mean that he was willing to engage with his staff... :eek: :eek: :eek:

And to declare my hand, I believe that the cadets need industrial representation because the egregious exploitation of their willingness to break into the game far outweighs their naivety into taking up the opportunity.

Stay Alive,

[The Kelpie]

Simple really 4dogs. The board of Jetstar Australia did a deal with the board of Jetstar New Zealand - ie AJ had a conversation with himself. This tells me this is his brainchild and he is responsible. Perhaps the Senator could ask him when he fronts up next Friday what is going on.

Is Paul Daff, one of the listed directors of Jetstar Airways (the New Zealand one, not the real one) not Jetconnect CEO?

You know the guy who does not, as CEO know whether Jetconnect has a bank account?

I wonder if he knows whether Jetstar New Zealand have a bank account?

Interesting!

More to Follow......I am sure!

The Kelpie

[mcgrath50]

4dogs,

Not the impression I was given but then again I haven't seen the contract so I bow to your knowledge. Are you talking about both the advanced or ab-initio?

I still stand by my point for the QF cadets though, that one I know is correct :}

If their contract is an employment one is union membership possible?

[The Kelpie]

McGrath50

I know AFAP have a level of membership for unemployed pilots so I guess that suggests you do not need to be employed to be a member of a union.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Long John Silver]

From a confirmed source: The cadets will now be based in Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane/Gold coast.

So now we have people flying Australian routes on a permanent basing who are not on the EBA and outside the seniority system.

The pilots up in Darwin waiting for a slot to get home have been screwed. The pilots on the hold pool waiting to get in have been screwed. ALL CURRENT FIRST OFFICERS have been screwed as they will lose all their overtime and day-off payments to these low grade salary cadets.

In a few years, once these cadets have had a ridiculous amount of ICUS they will be given commands ahead of all first officers on separate lower pay scales. Then ALL CAPTAINS will be screwed because they will start to lose their overtime, day off and preferred base allocations.

The sky is falling people.

[breakfastburrito]

Long John, I am not trying to sound abrasive here, perhaps now you understand how mainline pilots feel. This has been their scenario for the last 10 years. I'm on your side, as further division is exactly what the company wants, as proven by the new crack they have just opened up on you. This is why we need to work together, not at each others throats. This is why mainline pilots are going to vote on PIA.
The sooner everyone realises that the enemy is not your fellow pilots, but management, the sooner every pilot stops getting screwed.

[Long John Silver]

breakfastburrito I can totally understand your sentiments regarding JQ. I also totally agree that we all need to stand together on this one.

My concern over cadets is not about the individuals themselves, I'm sure most are very decent people, probably just like all the rest of us, just a little younger, less experienced and a little naive.

We do need to stop pointing the finger at other pilots and remember how hard it was getting into this gig. Most of us had to apply everywhere and take whatever opportunity presented itself. That’s just the way this industry has been. So we can't sit on our thrones from on high and condemn the pilots below us as they grapple to get a foot in the door. Would we really be any different if we were in their shoes now? (perhaps we would have studied IT or accountancy...)

It’s management that we all need to focus our collective efforts on. Its management that have continually pushed to erode the meagre T&C’s that we currently have. It’s management that are compromising safety by placing low time inexperienced pilots behind the controls of Australian airliners. It’s management who will try to conquer us by dividing and pitting us against each other.

And where does the leadership for this fight need to come from? It needs to come from senior captains in Qantas, Jetstar, AND Virgin. We are all going to suffer the same fate in the end. And its senior pilots in these companies who need to lead the charge.

So far there has been a JQ FO sacked over taking a stand, and on the 7:30 report I saw a QF SO taking a stand. The captains who have the most industrial clout, the most experience, and the least to lose need to stand up and realise they carry the leadership on this issue for future generations.

As my dad used to say, "always leave something in the tank for the next guy".

[denabol]

Just noticed this on Plane Talking.

Jetstar ‘sham’ pilot cadet scheme in turmoil – Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/03/10/jetstar-sham-pilot-cadet-scheme-in-turmoil/)

Seems that the cadets get a free bank account opening holiday in NZ and then stay here to be screwed.

I warned my kids not to take lollies of strangers. This is worse?

[breakfastburrito]

Good pick up denabol. Are management thick? The Senate inquiry was announced on 30 September 2010, the Jetconnect case was live, the spotlight was on them and they went ahead & blatantly attempted this scam - in broad daylight with everyone watching!! They treat the law, employee's & the Senate with utter contempt. This would have to be the most despicable act yet, who is going to lose their job? Not Bruce, not AJ, some low level functionary.

[Popgun]

Great article by Ben. I hope Senator X et al have the evidence to skewer these crooks and return Aussie jobs to Aussie-based pilots under Aussie terms and conditions!

[The Kelpie]

Dale

The name of the Jetstar HR guy is Keith Abbott. Two B's and Two T's in Abbott.

aka 'The Fall Guy'

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

Just had some feedback from a colleague the four Cadets in the news are confirmed to be on no salary but allowances only.

Those that are presently on the Ab-initio or advanced Cadetship at Oxford should be OK if the program gets canned because Anthony Petteford kindly told the Senators that his company gave a money back guarantee. Those at CTC, I am not sure because they have no such guarantee.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[mcgrath50]

Careful Kelpie, if you read carefully AP's wording, it seems to me he is only referring to the MPL course and/or the courses run in the UK.

The Jetstar cadets aren't students at Swinburne (ie; the flying fees go to swinburne who then pays Oxford) so I would doubt they are eligible for the refund.

[The Kelpie]

McGrath50

I try my best to make sure everything I post on here is factual.

The money back guarantee or 'Skills Protection Plan' is offerred to all Oxford Integrated Students both in the UK and here in Australia. That is the reason they do the Selection Process to identify those where their risk of having to pay out is above a certain level. These guys get rejected!

This is off the OAA Website:


Skills Protection Plan

Our unique Skills Protection Plan (SPP) is specifically designed to help support your career ambitions to become an airline pilot.The plan helps to minimise the risks traditionally associated with undertaking the necessary training. It brings a new dimension to professional pilot training for self-sponsored students, offering safeguards never previously available - providing you with both the confidence and the support needed to embark upon an Integrated course of airline pilot training and at no extra insurance cost.
The SPP has incorporated into one package, 3 key measures which collectively reduce many of the risks inherent in undertaking any form of professional pilot training. By linking it exclusively to our APPFO Integrated course, SPP also ensures that students can complete their training virtually free of significant financial risk and with a high level of confidence in their ability to complete the course successfully.
In developing SPP, we have set out specifically to help protect our customer’s financial investment by transferring training and financial risk from an individual student over to Oxford Aviation Academy. By doing this, we believe we are acting ethically and at the same time demonstrating our faith in our SKILLS ASSESSMENT process coupled with the quality of our APP FIRST OFFICER training course.

Key Features (javascript:ReverseDisplay('mcrm_overview'))
1. Skills Assessment Our 2-day Skills Assessment process ensures that only candidates with the necessary skills, aptitude and personality are offered places on our APPFO course. If you achieve the required standard during SKILLS ASSESSMENT, you can safely apply for APPFO training with a high degree of confidence in your suitability for an airline pilot career.
2. Skills Funding
Success during Skills Assessment does not just gain you the offer of an APPFO place. It also gives you access to the bespoke OAA & BBVA funding scheme, especially tailored to meet most of your training costs whilst freeing you of repayment concerns until you are established in your airline career.
3. Skills Guarantee
No matter how comprehensive our Skills Assessment, there can be never be a 100% guarantee that every trainee will achieve the very high standards required during training. Skills Guarantee ensures that the risk of failure due to lack of ability, however slight, does not deter good quality individuals from deciding to embark upon the airline pilot training. As a self-funded trainee, Skills Guarantee means that your financial commitment from training failure is virtually free of risk. This guarantee from OAA means that we could potentially refund to you your training costs should you fail to reach the required standard at any stage during your ab-initio training due to lack of ability. Skills Guarantee is a unique and highly valuable guarantee from OAA and is a reflection of our faith in the quality of the Skills Assessment process itself and the APP FO training programme which follows




The below is a quote from the Oxford FAQ's relating to the JQ Cadet Programme o the Jetstar Website.


Will the OAA ‘Skills Protection Plan (SPP) guarantee apply to both the Jetstar APPFO Cadet Pilot and ACP Programmes?
Yes - OAA will apply full Skills Security guarantees to both courses of training.


I know what you are gonna say, this relates to lack of ability. So, if you are stressed because your Hard Earned is about to get flushed down the toilet your performance suffers and hence your ability!!;)

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[mcgrath50]

Good research Kelpie :8 I'm very surprised and must reluctantly pat Oxford on the back for that one!

[The Kelpie]

McGrath50

I believe that there may be some small print but it doesn't say so on the sales spiel.

If this all goes tits up don't let us down Mr Petteford, after all this is what you told the Senators!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Mstr Caution]

This guarantee from OAA means that we could potentially refund to you your training costs should you fail to reach the required standard at any stage during your ab-initio training due to lack of ability.


It doesn't say the will refund you, only potentially.

It only applies up to the ab-inito stage of training.

Regarding "ability", OAA have put candidates thru the 2 day skills assessment process. They have therefore already determined that a candidate has the "ability" to complete the course. If a candidate fails to meet the required standard they will "potentially" identify other issues as the reason for lack of standard. ie: Confidence, Distractions, Commitment, Medical, Blah Blah Blah

Besides the final decision on the SPP is at the discretion of OAA.

[The Kelpie]

Guys Check this out


Jetstar hissy fit reveals two tier pay scale for new pilots (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/03/10/jetstar-hissy-fit-reveals-two-tier-pay-scale-for-new-pilots/)

March 10, 2011 – 4:52 pm, by Ben Sandilands (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/author/bensandilands/)


In an angry response to the earlier posting (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/03/10/jetstar-sham-pilot-cadet-scheme-in-turmoil/) on Plane Talking Jetstar has revealed plans to put new pilots onto a two tier pay scheme by transferring graduates from its sham New Zealand cadet scheme onto an Australian ‘modern award’.
The Australian and International Pilots Association says this would mean a lower pay scale for pilots doing the same work , as their is already a current EBA covering Jetstar pilots under which it would expect the carrier to employ new hires.
This is what Jetstar says about our earlier report.
Jetstar wishes to respond to the posting dated 10 March relating to our Cadet Pilot Program.
Jetstar stands by its Cadet Pilot Program, which was launched last year, and rejects recent criticism with respect to the employment arrangements of our Cadet Pilots.
Today’s Plane Talking posting takes a grossly sensationalised position.
Jetstar is currently finalising and is merely days away from offering Australian (Commonwealth) contracts for its Cadet Pilots that is in line with the modern award.
For the record, three Jetstar Cadet Pilots, each out of our training program based in New Zealand, have just concluded their line training with Jetstar and have been ‘checked to line’ by our airline, the background and basis for the Plane Talking posting. All three took place in the past six days.
The three are temporarily unable to fly within Australia until the finalisation of an Australian (Commonwealth) employment contract. The matter is likely to be rectified within days, due to a delay in finalising the workplace arrangement.
The putting in place of an Australian employment mechanism – and delays in this process – is the sole reason for this short term delay experienced by our three Cadet Pilots from re-entering our operations.
Contrary to what was stated in the posting, these Cadet Pilots are receiving full remuneration at this time. They will not be out of pocket whilst waiting for their Australian workplace contract to be finalised.
Jetstar will employ these Pilot Cadets under an Australian (Commonwealth) contract that is in line with the modern award.
We wish to make it clear it has always been our intention to have an Australian employment agreement in place for our Cadet Pilots.
Further with respect to clearance for Jetstar Cadet Pilots to fly, this is the responsibility of Jetstar’s Check and Training organisation within the airline (through delegation).
All of our Cadet Pilots are on existing Individual Employment Agreements (IEA) in New Zealand.
But according to the testimony given by Bruce Buchanan, the Jetstar Group CEO, to the Senate inquiry into pilot training and airline safety on February 25, Jetstar’s intention with the NZ scheme was to employ the graduates on a New Zealand award under which he claimed they could earn up to $NZ67,000 a year.
This now appears to have been replaced in haste with a plan to employ the pilots in Australia, a move which will however mean that those earnings will be taxed in Australia and attract a superannuation levy.
The Jetstar response continues to insist that this was a New Zealand training scheme, even though the only connection the cadets had with New Zealand was a New Zealand bank account and tax file number that they were flown to New Zealand by Jetstar in order to open and acquire.
One could easily come to the ‘sensational’ conclusion, as the pilots association has, that this is a sham.
Shortly before Jetstar reacted to the story the pilots association released this reaction to the grounding of the cadets.
QANTAS MUST COME CLEAN ON CADET SCAM
There are disturbing revelations that the Qantas Group has set up another sham employment scheme to evade the Australian industrial relations system and pay cadet pilots in New Zealand dollars.
A group of Jetstar cadets face an uncertain future after being stood down without pay, pending ‘operational clearance’.
Despite being Australian citizens, when they were first recruited the cadets were asked by the Qantas Group to go to New Zealand for three days of observational flying and to open New Zealand bank accounts.
They then did their endorsement training in the UK and their line training in Australia whilst being paid in New Zealand dollars.
Now that they have completed their training, the cadets have been left to their own devices on a basic living allowance and are awaiting an Australian contract based in Australia.
“The Qantas Group must give these young cadets some assurance of what is in store for them and quickly,” Australian and International Pilots Association Vice President Captain Richard Woodward said.
“The company needs to show faith and reassure these cadets that it intends to stand by the commitments it made.”
“We want them up in the air again as soon as possible, on full pay, under the Australian Jetstar Pilots Agreement.”
Captain Woodward said it was also important the company clarify exactly why it was basing its cadet training in New Zealand yet clearly operating it out of the UK and Australia.
“It’s an absolute disgrace that a company can consistently market itself as the national carrier and then go out of its way to avoid Australian workplace laws by placing its Australian cadets on New Zealand contracts and paying them in New Zealand dollars.
“That includes basic entitlements Australian workers take for granted, like the 9% compulsory superannuation contribution,” Captain Woodward said.
The news about Jetstar training its cadets in New Zealand is only the latest example of the company trying to undercut Australian pilots and avoid Australian workplace and superannuation laws.
Last year Qantas gave its New Zealand subsidiary, Jetconnect responsibility for the majority of all trans-Tasman flights and Mr Paul Daff, Head of Jetconnect, has confirmed in recent court proceedings that an additional 28 flights per week will be transferred from Qantas to Jetconnect in May 2011.
Employment conditions at Jetconnect are inferior, with pilots earning almost one-third less than they do at Qantas.

[The Kelpie]

Contrary to what was stated in the posting, these Cadet Pilots are receiving full remuneration at this time. They will not be out of pocket whilst waiting for their Australian workplace contract to be finalised.


More spin.

full remuneration on a contract based on scheduled flight hours equals nil if you don't fly.

Not be out of pocket means they are on overnight allowances and accomodation.

This is Bruce Buchanan trying to backtrack and get out of his Contempt allegations towards the Senate.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[framer]

Keep it up Kelpie,
Your work may change the future of Australian aviation.

[The Kelpie]

I need some help.

My usual legal 'friend' is unavailable and I don't know what an Australian (Commonwealth) Contract is?

I have googled it, but to no avail.

More to Follow

The Kelpie


ps I understand Jetstar may be trying to learn my identity. Guys you are very cold at the moment!!!

[Capt Kremin]

Is this it?

Fair Work Australia (http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/modern_awards/award/MA000046/default.htm)

[Chadzat]

Kelpie,

they must be discovering that the truth hurts! :ok:

[The Kelpie]

Kremin

That is the Modern Air Pilots Award 2010 - the minimum terms and conditions for pilots in Australia. It is the same document that the Bush Pilots are on although there are different salary scales for Aircraft.

I think this is what Jetstar mean but I am not sure as this is not an Australian (Commonwealth) Contract per se.

As I say the Award is the minimum but it is still a lot better than the NZ Cadet Contract. One feature is that it does not recognise 'cadet pilots' you are either a Captain or FO. I bet you it will be 'casual'!!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Capt Kremin]

That is the Award the cadets will be put on.

[Slasher]

Despite me having long given up Oz aviation for good, I must nonetheless
say you do excellent work Kelps. The filth and maggots that is ****star Oz
management deserve the fullest exposure.

All the best to you.

[The Kelpie]

I always give the 100% effort to my 'work' and hope that I can support 'friends' when possible in the hope they will help me (despite my anonymity - for obvious reasons)

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[h.o.t.a.s.]

From the Crikey Blog.


'A Jetstar cadet training scheme which has been criticized as a sham that evades the costs of complying with Australian industrial laws, the superannuation levy and taxation obligations is in disarray this morning..."

A fantastic summary of the situation.

The part about the lost taxation revenue has to be one of the smartest and fastest ways to get the Pollies backsides into gear to make this 'low act' practice much more difficult, and much less worthwhile from a management bonus driven perspective!

[astroboy55]

i wonder if the ato and pollies realise that the jetconnect sham is also a means of avoiding super and tax....

there's alot happening at the moment...and scabstar and qf are under alot of pressure about workplace contracts/safety etc...

could we as AUSTRALIAN workers finally be about to have a win??

[rmcdonal]

As an interesting aside to the Cadets going on the award, you should have a read of a talk give by Sue Bussell (Qantas IR) at the UNI of Sydney last year.
http://sydney.edu.au/business/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/67020/Laffer_Lecture_Sue_Bussell_190410.pdf

At about page 7 she discuss how Qantas played a roll in keeping the Modern pilot award to an absolute minimum so as to keep Australia competitive with internationals flying in OZ.

The recent review of Modern awards was an opportunity for the distinction between asafety net and conditions bargained in individual enterprises to be tested.
The Qantasgroup played a significant role in the review of the aviation industry awards. Although it might appear that an easy approach for Qantas would have been to stand back from the process because raising the industry standard would impact on our ‘low cost’ competitors more than on Qantas mainline, our view was that the long term competitiveness of the industry in Australia required that aviation industry awards remained as true Industry minima. Otherwise, we would have become potentially less competitive with international
carriers operating to Australia, and we also needed to protect our subsidiaries Jetstar and QantasLink – QantasLink provides services to regional Australia and has some community service obligations. The challenge was significant with some unions taking a very different
approach to the concept of a safety net being a minimum standard. We had to provide comprehensive data and the initial decisions of the Tribunal were then subject to a Ministerial request for review. However in the end, under very difficult circumstances the Tribunal got it right for this industry. There was no evidence of any individual being worse off and the awards provide for a fair minimum standard safety net that is a foundation – not a replacement - for collective bargaining.

In the longer term, the issue with modern awards will be the extent to which unions pursue arbitrated award variations to raise employment conditions outside of the bargaining stream. To the extent this does occur – if it occurs - the more the safety net will circumscribe the real scope for enterprise bargaining and hence the scope to tailor employment conditions to the needs of particular enterprises. If the Hawke/Keating
Labour Government and every Government since then was right – that the move from standard industry wide arbitrated outcomes to bargained enterprise level outcomes provided a key lever for economic reform and growth – then we need to be very careful that the safety net remains just that - an underpinning minima, not a vehicle for establishing new standards and benchmarks.

My Bolding.
Try not to throw your coffee at the screen.

[maggotdriver]

I'm sure there's more pilots than me knowledgable on this but from memory there's a significant difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Deliberately setting up a sham operation to reduce tax implications must be getting perilously close to the law. It would be nice to see some people charged over this.
Mr Kelpie, as you should be known out of respect, thank-you for your work. :ok:

[The Kelpie]

For the record, three Jetstar Cadet Pilots, each out of our training program based in New Zealand, have just concluded their line training with Jetstar and have been ‘checked to line’ by our airline,

What about the fourth?

Is this the one who was reportedly involved in the 'very heavy landing' in the Gold Coast a few weeks back? Is this why there are not four cadets checked to line?

Jetstar’s Check and Training organisation (through delegation)
who is this? I am curious about the use of the term organisation rather than department.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Angle of Attack]

This is getting better by the second....
I feel the Qantas Group management as a whole has just shifted to the defensive, they are being mauled on all sides by their pathetic decisions, and as they are all now hopeless 20's something UNI grads with as much life skills as a mature mosquito, they are about to implode! Thought they were too smart for their own good, and it looks like it will be so! :ok:

thanks Kelpie for the updates!

[Muff Hunter]

i wonder if jetscab will have to back pay their cadets seeing they'll soon be on the modern award

what the fark are these morons doing......??:mad::mad:

i sometimes worry about the state of our industry, but with these complete d1ckheads running scabstar and making an absolute mess in the process our chances of our indusrty returing to it's glory days are in sight......

kelpie, you are a star, and i wouldn't worry about sh1tstars management trying to reveal your identity, between the lot of them they couldn't organise a lovely night in gentlemens establishment let alone anything else!!:ok:

[breakfastburrito]

This is surely the nightmare scenario for you AJ & BB, with literally everything blowing up in your face and a very smart senator with a fine grasp of the nuances leading the Senate inquisition. Will you appear? The good senator has your measure, and your dirty little secret plan.
You boys are so deep in the hole, but yet you still keep digging.

[the-flying-z]

I wonder if they will accept the public humiliation and close all future training on the program that they have "stood by" so vigorously? :D:D:D

[noip]

Today has been like having a corporate box at the Roman Colosseum.

I only hope that tomorrow it has not evaporated to a wistful dream.


N

[The Kelpie]

I wonder if they will accept the public humiliation and close all future training on the program that they have "stood by" so vigorously?

Politically this will be very difficult to do because so far in the Senate Inquiry the evidence has concentrated on the assertion that cadets are the way to go for improving safety (even though this is a matter of opinion). If the airlines, particularly Jetstar withdraw them voluntarily now it will be seen to be as a result of the recent commercial revelations, something they infatically deny is the driving force behind the initiative in the first place.

It would be much more preferable now I would imagine for the airlines to allow the Senators to introduce minimum experience requirements, at which time the Cadet programmes become unfeasible.

We will just have to wait and see.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[gruntyfen]

Thanks Kelpie for bringing us Cadetgate.

If Today has been like having a corporate box at the Roman Colosseum lets hope next Friday is as entertaining. It might be like shooting fish in a barrel for the senators.

[the-flying-z]

I'd say dynamite fishing in a barrel could be expected!

[mister hilter]

Kelpie not sure if you've had a response, but my understanding is that FWA is a catch all for terms, conditions and wages for all workers Australia wide (ie a minimum acceptable standard).

Next on the list would be an industry particular award (aviation in this scenario).

And finally an EBA, which would be work place/company specific.

Each one may improve on the previous, but the FWA is the absolute minimum acceptable and if any employer tried and succeeded in getting an employee to sign it would be overturned (in theory anyway)

The Australian (Commonwealth) Contract I believe means it is binding nationwide and does not mean there are separate, contradictory contracts depending on where a cadet/pilot is based. Thus someone based in BNE is not on an Australian (Queensland) Contract, nor is someone based in SYD on an Australian (New South Wales) Contract, which may have different rates of pay/city specific allowances etc, etc.

[The Kelpie]

Mister Hilter

Thanks for the info.

More to Follow


The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

Seems that this has now hit the broadsheets. The Australian.


We're not trying to sidestep IR laws on training: Jetstar
rejected accusations that its cadet training scheme is a sham designed to evade the Australian industrial relations system and pay trainees in New Zealand dollars.

The Australian and International Pilots Association has written to the federal ministers for finance and workplace relations asking for investigation into whether Jetstar's cadet scheme flouts Australian workplace and tax laws.

The move comes after three cadets from a New Zealand-based training scheme were stood down operationally after they completed their line training. The association says the advanced cadets were asked to go to New Zealand for three days of observational flying, during which time they received Kiwi bank accounts and tax file numbers.

They then did their endorsement training in Britain and their line training in Australia while being paid in New Zealand dollars.
"They've always been resident in Australia, always been flying in Australia, they've never been resident in New Zealand," AIPA vice-president Richard Woodward said, noting that New Zealand legislation prevented the cadets from flying a jet in that country.

Captain Woodward said one of the cadets was sitting in a Sydney hotel room on allowances and no pay, and another was at home with his girlfriend while they waited for operational clearance.

"It's a total sham," he said. "One of the cadets was bright enough to ring the tax office and say: 'If I'm flying an Australian-registered aircraft and I'm an Australian citizen, should I be paid Australian wages and be paying Australian tax?' The answer was yes, so he was a bit concerned."
Jetstar denied it was not paying the cadets and said it was always the intention to switch the pilots to Australian contracts when their training was completed.

Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said cadets were trained by CTC in Hamilton and were on New Zealand individual employment agreements during training. He said cadets were being paid in full while unable to fly in Australia.

He said a delay in the paperwork was because the system was new but future transitions would be "much more seamless". "We hadn't to this time finalised an Australian contract for our cadet program," he said.
Mr Westaway said the cadets had been flying in Australia because the airline's check and training organisation was predominantly positioned here.

"The other thing to keep in mind is the type of flying in New Zealand is completely different to the type of flying in Australia and you have complexities in the New Zealand aviation landscape with respect to Queenstown and Wellington flying," he said.

Now what Simon doesn't know is I have a set of secret agent x-ray spectacles, they cannot see underwear through clothes (although I wish they could) but what they do detect, very well is spin and BS!

so lets break his comments down:

Jetstar denied it was not paying the cadets and said it was always the intention to switch the pilots to Australian contracts when their training was completed.

Is that so!! well lets just leave that one on notice until next Friday when The Senators ask Bruce Buchanan the question in person.

Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said cadets were trained by CTC in Hamilton and were on New Zealand individual employment agreements during training. He said cadets were being paid in full while unable to fly in Australia.

Oh Simon you speak with such intimate knowledge of the subject matter. It is my understanding that these were in fact Oxford Advanced Cadets that were trained in Australia by Oxford Aviation Academy. The only reason that these cadets did their A3320 endorsement in Gatwick, UK and not in Hong Kong as planned was that Oxford did not have the capacity in their Hong Kong training facility to take them (all 4 of them!!). Oh and answer me this. If the Cadets did their training in New Zealand with CTC, Why did Jetstar have to fly them across to New Zealand before they left to do their A320 endorsement in the UK for the sole purpose of getting a tax file number and opening a bank account if they were already there and had been for a number of weeks?

You also acknowledge Simon that the Cadets were on Individual Employment Agreements whilst training in New Zealand. Norwithstanding that I believe the training took place in Australia and the UK, you seem to acknowledge that they were employed during training. I will come back to that one later, I have more to say on this subject.

He said a delay in the paperwork was because the system was new but future transitions would be "much more seamless". "We hadn't to this time finalised an Australian contract for our cadet program," he said.

BS. Jetstar have had 9 months to sort out the plan for the Cadets since the scheme was launched. I will, if necessary later post a copy of hard evidence disproving that this was Jetstar's intention.

Mr Westaway said the cadets had been flying in Australia because the airline's check and training organisation was predominantly positioned here.

Maybe be so but in doing so you broke the law. You want Pilots to work in Australia the law says you must pay them in accordance with Australian Law. The real reason you did not have them do their line training in New Zealand is that the NZCAA will not give Jetstar a concession and require 500 hours of RPT flying before you are able to act as Flight Crew on High Capacity RPT something the cadets an indeed many other Direct Entry recruits will not have (if such a thing still exists!

You want to have a New Zealand Airline and pay NZ dollars, get an AOC in New Zealand and get a Check and Training DEPARTMENT in New Zealand. As an aside, I am still suspicious about the reference to "Check and Training Organisation ".

"The other thing to keep in mind is the type of flying in New Zealand is completely different to the type of flying in Australia and you have complexities in the New Zealand aviation landscape with respect to Queenstown and Wellington flying," he said.
Cannot comment, never been there. Maybe that is a safety angle. Hmmmm. Other than the fact that most A320s fly up around FL380 most of the time maybe they did not want to expose the cadets to challenging approaches just yet? Perhaps a confidence issue there. Speak to your Chief Pilot MR, he will put your mind at rest, he is 'very confident ' in the Cadets abilities.

Simon, I was once told that "if you are going to be a liar,be a good one" you I am sorry to say are not.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[breakfastburrito]

Kelpie, great work.
Queenstown, QF has dedicate Queenstown approved crew, I believe requiring an additional sim annually, so yes this is flagged as a "challenging" port due to terrain/short/30m. Wellington doesn't have any additional restrictions, but it is short (1814m) & the wind / terrain shape can create mechanical turbulence that would make it high risk for a 200 hour cadet.

[tiger19]

keep up the good work Kelpie

[mcgrath50]

Mr. Kelpie,

I hope everything you are posting here you are submitting as well to the relevant senators and government departments!

[The Green Goblin]

Good work Kelpie, perhaps you are the most important person in aviation right now.

When you finish with the mexicans, it's time to poke your nose into CASA :)

Keep it up!

[Artificial Horizon]

There is only one certainty in my mind at the moment, and that is that Jetstar have not deliberately been trying to avoid Australian IR laws. They have simply stumbled into this ridiculous situation through shear ignorance and arrogance. It was always intended that these cadet pilots would be based in New Zealand, when this was first proposed many of us raised the issue of the cadets not being able to fly in New Zealand due to the 500 hour limit. Jetstar said that this did not apply as we were flying to CASA regulations even in New Zealand. It was only when a few Captains based in NZ said that they would be unable to fly with cadet pilots in NZ due to the dodgy legal ground that Jetstar finally admitted that the 500 hour rule would apply. To remedy this they came up with the plan of a temporary basing in Australia to allow the cadets to achieve the 500 hours minimum and said that this was always the intention. Speaking to some of the cadets however this was never communicated to them. Now by doing this Jetstar have really dropped themselves in it as now they have been told that they can't do this whilst the cadets are on NZ contracts so their solution is to chuck together an OZ contract to put them on. The next hole they have dug for themselves will obviously be when all those pilots stuck up in Darwin etc start throwing their toys out of the pram due to these new pilots being offered the 'choice' bases straight out of training. What I can't believe is that the EBA pilots will be willing to fly with non-EBA pilots on normal revenue domestic sectors within Australia. They said they wouldn't do it with Jetstar NZ pilots, perhaps they need to do the same here!!

WHAT A SHAMBLES :}

[The Kelpie]

Guys

Does anyone know why AIPA are dealing with this and not AFAP?

Jetstar have a cunning plan and I need help. I privately need access to an AIPA rep certainly before the Cadets sign up. If there are any on here please PM me. (Must have an official AIPA email address).

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[breakfastburrito]

There is only one certainty in my mind at the moment, and that is that Jetstar have not deliberately been trying to avoid Australian IR laws. Really?
Recently spoke to one of the current group of 4 Australian cadets about to start line training with JS .They are all from the 'advanced' cadet stream and have 500+ hours. Basically it seems they all had to sign NZ contracts and will be nominally based in CHC or AKL.They have been promised they can fly back in Oz but will have to take LWOP from Jetstar NZ and be based in Oz on a temporary contract at NZ rates!
Once again BB is treating the profession of pilot with contempt but is he trying to be too clever by far? This attitude he has to his current and future pilot group WILL come back to bite him!
Is jetstar about to operate illegally in NZ? (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/434274-jetstar-about-operate-illegally-nz-2.html#post6078359)

[Capt Kremin]

AIPA are running this because most Jetstar pilots are now with AIPA and frankly, the AFAP doesn't seem to have much of a clue.

[Muff Hunter]

the afap are invlolved in this as well....

seems like jetstar management are pissing everyone off!

[Sunfish]

Kelpie, please take copies of any "paperwork" or computer files you have and give them to a friend.

Get them off site for safety sake.

[The Chaser]

ABC are giving it a run as well.

Jetstar trying to avoid workplace laws, union says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/11/3161149.htm?section=justin)
Jetstar trying to avoid workplace laws, union says
Posted 1 hour 26 minutes ago

The pilots union has accused airline Jetstar of training cadets overseas to avoid Australian workplace laws.

The International Pilots Association's Richard Woodward says Jetstar advertised the cadet scheme as based in New Zealand.

Mr Woodward says apart from three days in that country, they train in the UK and Australia, but are paid in New Zealand dollars.

"I think it's basically a sham, because none of these cadets spent more than three days in New Zealand ... only to do some observation flying on aeroplanes, get a bank account, and get a tax file number," he said.

"They've never been resident in New Zealand, they've always been in Australia, and they've always been flying registered aeroplanes."

Mr Woodward says they have now been stood down after finishing their training.

"We're getting a strong indication that Jetstar's going to try and give these young fellows an individual contract and most likely try and pay them under what's called the modern award, which is the minimum award conditions for a pilot in Australia," he said.

"We certainly wouldn't like to see that. We think that if you checked out as a Jetstar first officer, you're a Jetstar first officer, you should get the same pay as any other Jetstar first officer."

Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway has denied the allegations.

"Jetstar has an accredited pilot cadet training arrangement with two of the world's leading providers of pilot training, one of which is CTC group - which are a UK-based entity - which has a large training academy in Hamilton in the north island of New Zealand," he said.

"Jetstar has a large airline operation in New Zealand, our pilots, our cadet pilots will operate aircraft in New Zealand."
If Queenstown and Wellington are 'an issue' for low timers, what of the other 'challenging' ports in Australia?? .. thinking narrow and/or shortish runways, topography? Seems inconsistent!

[The Kelpie]

Sunfish

Don't worry I am very carefull!!

More to Follow

the Kelpie

[jackson's_joyflights]

April 4th Advanced Cadet program is still going ahead at Oxford at this stage.....

[Mr. Hat]

Is the Inquiry on again today or have I got my dates mixed up? Thought I saw it in the Australian.

Just need to go and get some popcorn..

Can someone post a video link?

[ruprecht]

This IS fun to watch.

:O

[Jack Ranga]

Are you on it Jacko? You're a brave man!

[The Kelpie]

No the recall Senate Hearing is next Friday 18th March.

More to Follow

the Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

All

Thanks for your PM's I now have a number of contacts in the AIPA office. I will make contact later today.

Thank you. If my posts dry up today please do not worry I am still here just a little busy.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Kelpie, you Sir are a legend! Your hard work and voluminous information gives me, for one, a lot of hope, thank you :ok:

[Popgun]

Go Kelpie! This is pure f@$king gold! I know a lot of guys who are starting to get optimistic now that there might be a real chance of turning this disgusting situation around.

I second the caution to be careful on here and to make sure you have copies of documentation somewhere safe.

I can back up the AIPA representation stats...62% of Jetstar workforce is AIPA represented.

PG

[Capt Kremin]

I think the first question to Buchanan should be, "If it was always the intention to base these cadets in Australia, why was it necessary to fly them to NZ to get a tax file number?

The ATO takes a dim view of organised tax scams. I think Bruce should be taking advice.

[rodchucker]

So if I get this right, CASA are allowing Jetstar to do something in Australia that NZ regulators wont allow? Has there been any explanation from CASA as to why? Reminds me of that movie about the smartest guys in the room.

Not for a minute should anyone accept that this situation was "stumbled into". I suggest that it was carefully planned but ineptly executed. Perhaps CASA decision making was the key and the NZ guys (regulators and pilots) showed they have the bottle to stand up to what they were presented with as a fait accompli.

If these cadets were flown over there specifically and only to get tax file numbers and bank accounts, someones arse should be in a sling because that is not the way the world works except in twisted minds.

Kelpie well done but take care my friend there is a lot at stake here beyond executive bonuses.

The industry and the travelling public owe you a lot and if Jetstar are really trying to find you, then it shows they have more to worry about than what is out there at the moment.

Let the truth prevail.

[Slippery_Pete]

Whatever happens, we have to make sure these cadets don't sign up to some B scale crap.

The AIPA, FWA and us as fellow pilots have to make sure they go onto the EBA and Jetstar get penalised for breaking the law and blatantly lying at a senate enquiry.

[Popgun]

I hear that AIPA is attempting to negotiate a 'B Scale" for the cadets...in the guise of a contract that would be equivalent to the Aussie 2010 Award..and separate from the Aussie EBA...

...which would then allow them to hold the prized bases of SYD, MEL and SEQ keeping more senior EBA pilots from ever returning from places like Darwin. :=

[Keg]

AIPA started talking to these guys about three days ago. Somehow I don't think they've even gotten to negotiating anything on their behalf just yet.

[Slippery_Pete]

I hear that AIPA is attempting to negotiate a 'B Scale" for the cadets...
If that's true, it's an absolute disgrace. The AIPA and AFAP should be working together to ensure no "B scale" is ever introduced and to ensure everyone gets paid equally.

If they get a B scale going, it will just encourage them to close direct entry and hire only cadets - it will be another nail in the coffin.

[astroboy55]

I hear that AIPA is attempting to negotiate a 'B Scale" for the cadets...

I highly doubt it....AIPA are actively trying to stop this kind of thing happening.

Have faith in them......despite all the rumors and stuff that gets spread, they are trying to maintain careers and conditions for Aussie pilots, in both QF and JQ.....

[havick]

sorry for the slight thread drift..

Does AIPA only represent airline pilots? I'm a helicopter rescue pilot, and in view of our last EBA negotiations (we actually did quite well) I would rather be a member of an organisation other than the AFAP.

Quite a few of the pilots in our company are also scratching their heads as for better representation in the future. Fortunately we had some good EBA reps in the company for the last negotiations.

[OneDotLow]

AIPA's constitution dictates who they can have as members. At this stage I believe it is only employees of the QF group. You may want to call their office though as it was extended to include JQ and Qlink a while back.

[maggotdriver]

"The other thing to keep in mind is the type of flying in New Zealand is completely different to the type of flying in Australia and you have complexities in the New Zealand aviation landscape with respect to Queenstown and Wellington flying," he said.

Kelpie, great work.
Queenstown, QF has dedicate Queenstown approved crew, I believe requiring an additional sim annually, so yes this is flagged as a "challenging" port due to terrain/short/30m. Wellington doesn't have any additional restrictions, but it is short (1814m) & the wind / terrain shape can create mechanical turbulence that would make it high risk for a 200 hour cadet.


The Senator asked the CASA fellow something like, "These cadets joining Jetstar may have 300 hours and as little as 200 hours. Doesn't that worry you? The low level of experience?

CASA replied, "No, Its a only hand-eye coordination thing"

So when are we going to drop the special requirements to operate into these places as it is only a "hand-eye coordination thing"

Isn't the very fact that these requirements exist as well as different requirements for command compared with FO logically conclude that experience does count? Indeed it's in their own requirements stipulated in their own manuals.

[Fruet Mich]

Hilarious!! Great stuff Kelpie, I'll be tuning in next Friday to watch the shananagins! BB is going to make a complete cock of himself! If there was something I learnt in my previous life as a sales rep is it's always hard to remember a lie, always tell the truth. His contradictions and lies will be exposed. Great stuff, I guess it's carma ay.

[Mr. Hat]

How about the good Senator look into the constant creation of B scales and opening of shutting of companies as a method to circumvent negotiated and agreed upon EBAs. Somehow I don't think thats the idea of an EBA under our IR system. If it is why have a system or framework at all?

One for the head of FWA to speak on perhaps. He/she has a few questions to answer I think...

[Popgun]

Quote:
I hear that AIPA is attempting to negotiate a 'B Scale" for the cadets...
I highly doubt it....AIPA are actively trying to stop this kind of thing happening.

Have faith in them......despite all the rumors and stuff that gets spread, they are trying to maintain careers and conditions for Aussie pilots, in both QF and JQ.....

Getting the cadets onto the Aussie EBA is obviously AIPA's preferred option.

I was told, however, that AIPA thought it highly unlikely they could achieve that goal and that successfully negotiating a 'B Scale' would be an acceptable second prize as it would at least mean that the Cadet group would have an Aussie contract and be able to be formally represented by AIPA...

As disturbing as that scenario sounds...it comes directly from an AIPA source.

PG

[framer]

Kelpie;
I've been trying to follow this from the kick off and am starting to be overwhelmed by all the revelations.This makes me think that some others who haven't been following it so closely will get lost in this thread. Do you think you could make a 'summary post' and list;
1/All the outright false statements made by management at the inquirey
2/Any contradictions etc that have been uncovered in the last week or so,

onto one page so as to build a quick and easy picture of where things are at?
My motivation for asking you to donate your time to doing this is that I imagine some influential people are aware of this thread and influential people are often time poor. I would hate them to miss something :)
Ps Maybe it could even be the first post of a new thread so as it's not hidden away on page 10 of the thread.
Just a thought, Cheers, Framer.

[framer]

PPS The thread title could be "Summary of a Debacle" or similar.

[Artificial Horizon]

AIPA would be bloody crazy to accept a 'B' scale for the cadets. What is wrong with just saying 'no', if the company then go ahead with the 'b' scale thing anyway at least it is not with the 'support' of the union.

Once a 'b' scale is introduced, the fight to retain the EBA is over. :ugh:

[Muff Hunter]

a b sacle on the current award is probably more than a first yr f/o anyway!! not that it makes it right

[KRUSTY 34]

A line from There's something about Mary... "...F#ck it, I'm going down there..."

Got the day off, as does a good mate in Qantas. Won't be missing it for quids! See you there boys and girls! :ok:

[Oldmate]

Yep. Me too, day off, going to go and watch.

[Mstr Caution]

Framer,

I hear where your coming from, requesting a summary to date from Kelpie's treasure trove of background info.

However,

I'd much prefer to hear the info he/she's collected at the same time AJ & BB do at the senate inquiry.

MC.

[Dekka]

Maintenance added to Senate pilot training inquiry list | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/maintenance-added-to-senate-inquiry-list/story-e6frg95x-1226019272434)

[SkyScanner]

I was told, however, that AIPA thought it highly unlikely they could achieve that goal and that successfully negotiating a 'B Scale' would be an acceptable second prize as it would at least mean that the Cadet group would have an Aussie contract and be able to be formally represented by AIPA...

Don't think so Popgun, your source is wrong.

[Ultralights]

"Even though I would like to think I am going to be chief executive for the next 25 years, it will probably be a decision for the next chief executive about where the heavy maintenance of those aircraft will be done," Mr Joyce said.

and here is the root of almost all of the current problems...

[The Kelpie]

Posted in reply to post on the Senate Inquiry thread but more appropriate here given that Senate Inquiry thread is about safety and pilot training and this one is about Ts and Cs.

Basing the cadets in SYD/MEL/BNE/GLDY is a big two fingers to the remainder of the pilot group to assert authority and as a knee-jerk backlash as punishment for some cadet program documents, and other internal documents being leaked.

It is part of a wider strategy to gouge a negotiating position with the Unions. Soon the company will approach the Unions and offer to move the cadets out of these bases once they have completed their base training to appease the rest of the pilot group in exchange for accepting the introduction of a B Scale.

This, i would suggest has been a planned ambush from day one. The company will use the plight of the cadets to push the urgency of the unions to agree with the introduction of a B scale, possibly in an entity other than the one that has the EBA.

The unions must resist this pressure as the introduction of a B Scale will have a long term effect on the future of Air Crew terms and conditions. If the Senate Inquiry increases the required experience to pilot an airliner or if the company subsequently moves these cadets 'to meet the ongoing needs of the business' these and future cadets will be unlikely to have a part in the airline life at these bases anyway until later in their career. However, the B Scale concession will live on and continue to erode Ts and Cs.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[4dogs]

Folks,

I think that this whole debate about "B" Scale for cadets started from misinformation and risks gaining a life of its own.

I am very reliably informed that no such position has been contemplated by AIPA.

On the other hand, AIPA was first out of the blocks in publicising this whole disgraceful "cadet" scheme and it is very much a matter of seeing what Jetstar comes up with - other than their current stance of big round eyes with teeny weeny pupils staring into the harsh light of being sprung!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Stay Alive,

[Artificial Horizon]

I don't know, but I am hearing rumours that it now means that these cadets are getting paid more than fully fledged Jetstar New Zealand First Officers, so in one badly planned move Jetstar have pis*ed off:

Jetstar NZ First Officers!
Jetstar Australia First Officers, particularly the ones based in Darwin!!
All pilots in the 'hold pool' who positions are now in threat by the influx of cadets!

I know of a couple of Jetstar New Zealand FO's who were pretty much forced to take the NZ contract on the promise that an OZ base would be available to them within the first year under some new transfer agreement. They were then told it was legally impossible due to agreements under the EBA. It would appear now that these EBA 'agreements' are easy to circumvent when the company deems fit!!

Good on ya Jetstar!

[Artificial Horizon]

Thats been the response from a few of the FO's, apply for the cadet scheme, get a MEL, OOL, BNE or SYD basing and a payrise!!!

[The Kelpie]

What is the word from the Unions?

Last I read they were strenuously objecting to a new contract and were insisting on the use of the EBA.

Is the new contract the EBA?

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Artificial Horizon]

Not according to the company email, it is a new contract in line with the Modern Award. So either the unions have given up on the EBA or J* has done this without their consent or approval.

[Oxidant]

or J* has done this without their consent or approval.

Oh, you suprise me!:yuk:

[Mr. Hat]

J* has done this without their consent or approval.

..how strange, completely out of character.

[KRUSTY 34]

Gidday Kelpie.

WRT the NZ Contracted Aussie DEC F/O's and their line training in OZ whilst being paid Kiwi dollars etc, etc... (Crikey! My head's spinning), that I mentioned on the other thread. I gleened that info from a workmate who is friends with one of the affected pilots. He assures me that it is correct and it was confirmed by this chap just a couple of days ago. Rumour network, so slight grain of salt, but I have no reason to disbelieve him.

I've sent an email to the Federation, but I'm sure if it's happening they would be aware of it. Mind you, there is also AIPA and the JPC, so if it is happening one would be very surprised if they weren't all over this. Considering how this bastardised practice was allowed to perpetuate in the first place though, nothing would surprise me!

As far as Cadets now being on Australian wages and conditions, and being paid more than DEC F/O's on inferior NZ contracts: My advice to these DEC F/O's who allowed themselves to be exploited, you lay down with dogs and you will get fleas! :rolleyes:

[The Kelpie]

Cheers Krusty

All seems very quiet from the AFAP camp although I understand that a briefing note was posted on the private section of the Union website relating to the situation before the 'real story' of an alternative contract to the EBA came out

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[The Green Goblin]

Can someone please post the AFAP's briefing note here.

Pay your fees, and you can view it too.

As it was written on the 16th of March, it's a tad out of date now.

At least I know my union is against cadets flying in Australia whilst not under the EBA.

Now what?

[Popgun]

Email from AIPA received today:

Jetstar Cadets
Recently questions were asked about the Jetstar cadet pilots and their status. It must be noted first that these pilots are all Australian residents, born and bred Australians – some of them have never been in New Zealand before. It seems that on commencement of this program the young pilots were sent to New Zealand for 3 days and asked to set up a New Zealand bank account and secure a New Zealand Tax File Number. Once this was done, these pilots were sent to the United Kingdom for their A320 training and when they arrived back in Australia they commenced their line training with Jetstar in Australia.

The current legislation in New Zealand precludes pilots flying a High Capacity airliner with less than 500 hours, so for so-called New Zealand based crew they were not entitled to operate in New Zealand. These pilots have been stood down and will be advised of their contract requirements shortly. AIPA has recruited these pilots and is supporting them through this harrowing time. AIPA is keeping a close eye on developments and we are keeping all relevant parties, including the Senate Inquiry, informed. It would be interesting to know what Jetstar would have done if this was not brought to the attention of the Senate Inquiry and the media.

[Jet Man]

I hope they're being paid whilst stood down.

[Artificial Horizon]

'All Australian Residents!!!!!' what a load of bullsh*t!!

[The Kelpie]

AH

All of the 4 cadets are Australian PR or citizens. The AIPA statement does not extend to other DE FOs into either JQ Aisa or JQ New Zealand who are undertaking line training in Australia. Line Training is Line Operations which is by definition work, and given the existence of the JQ EBA should be carried out under this document. It is possible that some of these individuals employed by other JQ entities will not have the right to work in Australia and this should be reported to both the Union and the Immigration 'Dob in line' if there are grounds for suspicion.

[Artificial Horizon]

Kelpie,

I just thought that the statement is a little misleading when it says 'all cadets are Australian residents, born and bred in Australia' when I know for a fact altleast one of them is from the South Island of New Zealand.

[ANCDU]

Didn't Qantas train Jetconnect pilots on Australian sectors? Surely these guys weren't being payed $AUS while they where doing this. Whats the difference with the Jetstar case? Airlines all over the world train other airlines pilots on revenue sectors often so they can gain the required experience during an introduction of type.

Just to clarify, i don't agree with what is going on at all, and i don't have a lot of sympathy for these cadets either, am actually a bit peeved union dues are being used to help them. Its not as if every other pilot in the industry didn't warn them!

And Kelpie, great work, i don't think you will ever have to buy a drink when there is another pilot in the room!

[The Kelpie]

AH

ah right. As you will be aware New Zealand citizens have the right of residency in Australia so likely to be no problem with immigration, just the issue of complying with Australian employment legislation. Which the NZ contracts clearly do not.

Cheers

Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

ANCDU

Thanks for the support.

Yes it happened at Jetconnect too.

Perhaps the union could look into the opportunity to claim the validity of the Qantas EBA for the Jetconnect Pilots given their initial days on the job are effectively as Qantas pilots flying VH Reg Aircraft, from an Australian Base, flying Qantas owned aircraft, wearing qantas uniforms, paid by Qantas etc etc. with a NZ contract that is clearly invalid in Australia ! Hint hint :ok:

The big question for Jetconnect pilots is "what contract am I actually employed under?" you might be surprised that what you thought was your contract legally is not!! But that is what the jetconnect FWA case is partly about.

The NZ contracts were signed prior to commencing line training and, given that when line training started in Australia these NZ contracts may be held to be invalid and therefore a pilot, on commencing work would effectively be a contract under performance. In this case I would suggest that this would automatically default to the collective agreement in place in the absence of any other legally enforceable contract in Australia being in place.

Oh and don't forget backpay!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Artificial Horizon]

So I was having a read of the Pilots Award 2010 and it states that the minimum wage for a full time pilot employed by an airline on narrow body jet aircraft is $71,397. I assume this is what the cadet pilots are now getting paid, or in other words approx. $99,000 new zealand dollars which is around $35,000 per annum MORE than a Jetstar NZ First Officer!! :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: Bruce, Bruce, Bruce.... And here I was thinking that part of the reason for starting a cadet scheme was because you couldn't fill the FO positions in NZ without a significant increase in the FO's wage so you thought the answer was to employ cadets on $42,000 NZD to solve that problem. What a ****

[The Kelpie]

AH

Know the award. 71k is the base salary, in addition there are plenty of additional payments for various things. I reckon base is around 77k plus super plus a reasonable level of allowances.

The new contract is being issued under a different entity 'jetstar group'

The unions must stop this now as it is clearly not in the spirit or compliant with the obligations of the EBA

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[The Green Goblin]

Can our union just instruct it's members not to train them unless they are on the EBA?

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

WHAT THE? My Union is spending my dues on this?

Methinks this should stop until the cadets are >50% unionised. Of course, I respect that there may be more at play than I know; perhaps the professional unionist know of a broader strategy... but I am not yet convinced.

FRQ CB

[DirectAnywhere]

The "broader strategy" is clearly to get them on the Australian EBA. AIPA (or the AFAP or whoever they choose) is unable to represent these pilots in negotiations unless those pilots nominate them to negotiate on their behalf, which, I believe, includes membership of the applicable association.

[Muff Hunter]

i'm told that all JQ Cadets that are checked to line are now AIPA members.

[mcgrath50]

Methinks this should stop until the cadets are >50% unionised. Of course, I respect that there may be more at play than I know; perhaps the professional unionist know of a broader strategy... but I am not yet convinced.


Think big picture. It's either get them in the union and get them on the EBA or leave them in the cold to accept whatever they are first offered which will be a crap B scale.

It's damage control. They don't deserve our help, but by getting onto the EBA we are helping ourselves.

[4dogs]

Folks,

I'm sure I will be corrected if I am not reading this properly...

The JetConnect training was conducted on the basis that they were returning to operate in NZ after CTL, which they did and which was consistent with normal practice of providing line experience for start-ups.

Jetstar (Westaway?) said that they always intended that the cadets would be transferred onto Oz contracts - which suggests that there was no intention of them leaving the country a la JetConnect.

Despite the intention to get them onto Oz contracts, there was never one available until the cobbled together Modern award version was offered on Wednesday.

No consultation occurred between Jetstar and AIPA (or AFAP??) before the Modern Award contract was offered to the cadets.

No AIPA dollars were spent on the issue other than the brief time spent recruiting the cadets. However, once recruited, they are entitled to be represented as fully as any other member and dollars will be spent reinforcing the basis on which all members' interests are protected now and in the future.

Bringing them in from the cold was a far better strategy to provide legal 'standing' in any industrial activity, compared with just talking about it.

There is nothing other than the reaction of the workforce to constrain how an employer chooses to employ people - nothing legally forces Jetstar to employ pilots on the EBA.

Have I got that right?

Stay Alive,

[The Kelpie]

4 Dogs

You are not far off the mark with that summary, however I would make the following comments

The JetConnect training was conducted on the basis that they were returning to operate in NZ after CTL, which they did and which was consistent with normal practice of providing line experience for start-ups.

You are correct, however the undertaking of Line Training is done during normal Line Operations in Qantas Aircraft on Qantas routes from a Qantas base. Whilst you say this is normal practice you are still carrying out work in Australia for an Australian Company that should be remunerated at the rates prescribed by Australian Employment Legislation or the relevant EBA if appropriate. The NZ employment contract is invalid in Australia. Additionally, while Qantas seeks to bring it's pilots from all over the globe and have them undertake their line training in Australia this is effectively reducing the need for Australian based Qantas pilots who ar remunerated on the EBA. If allowed to continue with this strategy, Qantas will only employ Training Captains and all FO requirements will be resourced by pilots from other countrys undertaking line training.

Jetstar (Westaway?) said that they always intended that the cadets would be transferred onto Oz contracts - which suggests that there was no intention of them leaving the country a la JetConnect.

Don't believe a word that Westaway says, he couldn't lie straight in bed!!! The only reason that he said that is because Jetstar got caught out!!! The information passed to the Oxford Jetstar Cadets was clear that the intention was to employ under a NZ individual contract for a period of 6 years despite the original CASA approval allowing cadets only to operate from certain Australian bases. Whilst the contract did contain provisions for LWOP to take up an Aussie base the intention was that this would always be at the rate of pay in the NZ contract. The inquiry has already seen that CASA approved the cadet programme with conditions as to bases at which Cadets may operate from and it seems that this may be the subject of suspicions of foul play as those bases have now effectively been deleted. I understand McCormick has been asked to report back to the Senate Committee on this point.

For a Cadet to take up LWOP would mean that thre would need to be a vacancy at one of those bases. In addition to the many Jetstar Pilots who through the Seniority system are entitled to bid for alternative bases the information I have is that there is also a healthy holding pool of pre-assessed and interviewed pilots waiting to join Jetstar Airways Limited but they are constrantly being advised by email that there are no vacancies in the Australian Operation but feel free to express interest in the New Zealand and Singapore operations where vacancies do exist.

There is nothing other than the reaction of the workforce to constrain how an employer chooses to employ people - nothing legally forces Jetstar to employ pilots on the EBA.

No. Jetstar Airways Limited are bound to employ everyone on the EBA. The new contract is being offerred by a different Company 'Jetstar Group', another 'franchise operator come Sham company' in the Qantas Group Franchise.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Boney]

Sitting next to a certain person very high up in the food chain on a flight recently, (not management) I was told there is NO J AUST HOLD FILE.

It simply does not exist.

You go to the interview and if sucessful are told you can bend over and start straight away in Sing or NZ or wait for an Australian base on the imaginary Aussie hold file.

A good mate of mine had been waiting for an Aussie base since March 2010 but recently started some where else.

J are laughing all the way to the bank because they make money by charging people to be interviewed anyway so they don't care if you are on the imaginary hold file for 17 years before moving on with your life.

What an industry!

[The Kelpie]

Boney

I have evidence it does indeed exist!!

Guys, all of the evidence is out there to nail these guys but it is widely disseminated so that the whole picture cannot be proved easily. Each one of you are in possession of information which you feel is insignificant, which considered in isolation may be the case however do not underestimate the power of that piece of information to complete the jigsaw.

The Senate Inquiry is receiving all of these pieces and putting them together and getting a very clear picture of what and who is causing safety in the Australian Aviation Industry to be compromised.

It is a similar principle as to why the US government did not see September 11 coming, many deprtments had snippets of information that they did not share and consequently whole jigsaw was not pieced together to reveal the threat until it was too late.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Iron Bar]

Slight clarification re JQ seniority. The Pilots agreement
refers to Seniority being a "major consideration"
in the allocation of promotions, base assignments and
so on. So in actual fact there is no "strict" seniority
system. They do what they like.

Thanks to Kelpie etal for insightful contributions.

[4dogs]

The Senate Inquiry is receiving all of these pieces and putting them together and getting a very clear picture of what and who is causing safety in the Australian Aviation Industry to be compromised.

While I wholeheartedly agree with the principle you espoused, the problem is that we are dealing with a highly complex industry in which none of the Senators has direct experience. The gathering of data and the intelligent analysis of it requires expert advice - unfortunately, the confidential caveats placed on many of the "snippets" means that the available technical expertise is effectively isolated from the data.

I have no doubt that the good Senators have identified that there are threats to the existing safety levels - but the problem for them is to identify suitable solutions. And that is not easy....

Stay Alive,

[killa loop]

Straight from 4 corner

MARK JOHNSON: Matt Hicks is a, you know, a very competent operator with 15 or so years in Qantas having flown a 767, 747, A330 and A380 and he was working I would say close to his limit. And I would not have liked to have seen someone with very low hours trying to do that job on that day.

[Flt.Lt Zed]

The latest 'Flight' magazine includes a progress report on the accident investigation of B737 ET409 near Beirut. The report indicates the dissparity of experience between captain [20yrs.10,000hrs] and copilot [673 total hours].
This situation will often lead to a copilot unwilling to criticise the captain and vice versa a captain unwilling to heed criticism from an inexperienced co.
The Jetstar cadet scheme will replicate this situation with possible dire outcomes.

[MrWooby]

Possibly Flt.Lt Zed, however steep cockpit gradients aren't as much of a problem in western airlines compared to middle east and asian carriers. Western pilots are much more inclined to speak up if they believe something is wrong regardless of experience, and western captains are much more inclined to listen. They don't have the loss of face culture which permeates asian culture.
another factor is GEN Y, these creatures are definitley more inclined to speak up.:ok:

[The Kelpie]

Following management's refusal to put the cadets on the EBA and in the absence of a union agreed contract are the cadets (all now AIPA members I understand) still grounded?

Thanks

Kelpie

[Roller Merlin]

Next lot of cadets are already training on the line in JQ

[ThePaperBoy]

Previously it has been J* management's plans to water down conditions which has annoyed me - not the cadets. However, I'm tolerating the cadets less and less.

Chatting to a J* cadet last week, the naivety really blew me away. The cadet's comments went along the lines of "I don't think the conditions will stay that poor for long. After all, if they don't improve we will all leave and they'll need to find a lot of replacement pilots".

I think there will be more than enough warm bodies to jump in the right hand seat after you depart. That is if you leave - no one else will touch you.

[Dekka]

QANTAS recruitment page:

2011 Qantas Cadet Pilot Programs

Qantas Pilot Recruitment has recently completed the final review of its Cadet program requirements for 2011. After careful consideration we have informed our Industry Partners of our intention to suspend all proposed Cadet programs for 2011. We acknowledge that this message will disappoint candidates interested in Cadet opportunities for 2011 however the decision has been based on numerous internal and external factors which we believe warrants the suspension of all courses.


he he he :ok:

[The Green Goblin]

Considering there are guys who have been in industry placement since 2007, I think their loyalty should be getting them up and running.

Some of these guys have left the regionals to fly bug smashers to gain command time and others are pretty close to regional commands in turboprops.

Also considering the best thing about the QF cadetship was seniority, some of these guys have been screwed big time since it was removed in 2009.

GG

EDIT:

Lets also not forget the hypocracy. The QF cadets used to spend at least 2 years in industry placement flying regional airliners such as Metros before they would be let anywhere near the backseat of a 747.

How can a program which costs more, yet offers less allow Jetstar cadets to go straight to the front seat, when only a few years ago QF management would not let this type of thing happen?

[glekichi]

A whole group of cadets training in 2008 went directly onto mainline jets. If there really are guys still on industry placement that is very poor form.

[rmcdonal]

If there really are guys still on industry placement that is very poor form.
Yup, one group went into industry placement, and the following group went directly into mainline.
The first group are still in industry placement, some now even hold commands in the regionals.
My understanding was that they needed a bunch of pilots at the time and group B were ready to go, where as group A were spread around the country.

[The Kelpie]

The QF cadets weren't even on industry placement they were just put out there to fend for themselves until things picked up. Still waiting!!!

[The Green Goblin]

The QF cadets weren't even on industry placement they were just put out there to fend for themselves until things picked up. Still waiting!!!

That would have been after about 2009 Kelpie, love your work though.

You know the funny thing? These Qantas cadets were considered hard work to get up to speed on Metros, Saabs, Brasilias etc by the likes of Skippers, Airnorth, Pearl, Macair etc YET Jetstar cadets are considered the ducks nuts and go straight to the front of the class.

Go bloody figure :eek:

[astroboy55]

You know the funny thing? These Qantas cadets were considered hard work to get up to speed on Metros, Saabs, Brasilias etc by the likes of Skippers, Airnorth, Pearl, Macair

Im sure everyone would like to believe that, but it is not the case in all instances. there definitely were a few instances.

Funnily enough, there were plenty of GA guys and gals that were considered extremely hard work to get up to speed, infact some failed where the cadets succeeded. Again, not the case in all instances.

However, that is a discussion for another time and place. The jetstar cadetship is a crock and should be outed as such. I for one have never supported the direct transition to the window seat of a jet, and never will. As someone who went through the cadetship, I would have no hesitation in stating that I was not ready to step into a jet after the training. It was not sufficient. No amount of 'sim' or multi crew training time is. Only real world time in real aircraft can prepare a person. even then, there are many individual traits and behaviours that can preclude a person from being suitable. I know this, you know this, lets hope the Inquiry also takes this line and instigates changes so that arrangements such as the jetstar cadetship can no longer happen.

[The Kelpie]

GG

Yes from 2009 would be about right. These guys are still out there, some flying in GA and some not at all. Either way contaminated or so the story goes.

I guess the recruitment files disappeared into the ether with the MH and the Qantas HR department. The records of these cadets will be buried in some archive room by now!!

Wonder if Qantas remember they still exist??

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[melbourneuniboy]

Do you have any figures of how many of the Qantas cadets actually missed out? Or is it being blown out of proportion?


Essentially those graduated 2009 and 2010 are not with Qantas mainline or any of the traditional industry companies.

They are either working at flying school, normal GA companies or outside of aviation.

Those who graduated 2007, 2008 (and maybe even years before that) are working doing Industry Experience.

Wonder if Qantas remember they still exist??

Well the manager of them at the moment has that rolled tacked onto the end of her other role and seems to be focusing more on her original role.

[The Kelpie]

2 intakes from the Commercial Stream at Parafield plus a couple of intakes from both Swinburne and Griffith on the Ab-initio stream.

I guess possibly 20??

[DUXNUTZ]

As a one-time contestant on the wheel of fortune (QF Cadetship) i find it amazing that Qantas have let their last two years worth of courses hanging and maybe a turn of good luck i didn't go down that path.