MA and Rolls Royce - Apprenticeship Decision

[AdamLittlewood]

Hello.
I'm Adam! I'm new to this forum. I am currently in my second year of college (so finishing in June). I have decided not to go to university but instead go the apprenticeship route to get my degree and at the same time get paid and have a job at the end of it.
I have currently applied to a few a companies including BAE, AirBus, MA to name a few.
I have only heard back from three, BAE, MA (Marshalls Aerospace) and Rolls Royce.
BAE seemed to have taken my application no further.
I have been to MA for an aptitude test and am waiting to hear back from them about an interview.
I attended a Rolls Royce aptitude test day last week for the Higher Apprenticeship and was offered a place at Derby.

My question to you knowledgable guys is; If I were to also secure a place at MA (which I'm hoping I can), what would be my best option? Rolls Royce or MA?
MA is just 20 miles from me, and Derby is about 3 hours so obviously that would mead moving away. Whilst RR is the larger company that everyone has heard of, I've noticed that MA seem to pop up a lot in this industry. Would I be ignorant to just assume RR was better as they are the bigger company?
From what I can tell both apprenticeships seems to offer the same: Same pay (whilst it's little, it's much better than getting into debt from uni), same duraiton. Both pay for your degree assuming you're at a high enough level, both offer you a job after, and both seem to have similiar amounts of workshop training/ technical training etc.
This isn't just an extention of school, this is a career I am choosing. Whilst I know I am not tied to one company for ever I want to make sure I start off on the right foot and want to make the right decision.
Thank you for reading!

[UKAvionicsEngineer]

Hi Adam,

I think you need to decide what type of engineering apprenticeship you want to get into, because MA is more aircraft maintenance (which could lead to becoming a LAE :D) and RR is all engines mainly. I would rather get into MA myself as iv already completed an aircraft maintenance apprenticeship with BAE and i think if you ask anybody in the trade they would take commercial aircraft over military aircraft anyday. But iv heard RR do offer an attractive salary coupled with good benefits, i dont know what MA are offering so i carnt comment. Which ever route you do choose to go down i wish you all the best :ok: good luck!!

[Sonic Bam]

What do you want to do with your life?
Do you want to work on aircraft in a hangar or do you want to work on gas turbine engines in a workshop or assembly plant? Marshalls does one, Rolls does the other.
Rolls probably has more opportunities down the road a bit if you stick with them but if you get a licence through working at Marshalls then you can go almost anywhere in the world.

[AdamLittlewood]

Thanks for the replied guys!

UKAvionicsEngineer
I thought MA worked on military aircraft as well as commercial, and you said:
'...if you ask anybody in the trade they would take commercial aircraft over military aircraft anyday'
But I thought RRs work was mainly on engines for commercial aircraft too?
Or do you mean they'd be more likely to take someone who's done aircraft maintainence?
The salary offered by both for apprentices is equal. I do not know of any bonuses actually, should have asked that!

Sonic Bam
Ultimately, I'd love to be an Avionics Engineer, I've always had a flare for electronics etc and I'd like to couple that with my love for aircraft.
It seems maybe MA is the best choice for me?

Thanks for the replies

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thoughts:

- Both Marshalls and RR do both military and civil work
- Both Marshalls and RR get involved in avionics and in flight testing, as well as the obvious build / maintenance work
- RR offers much more potential for international travel
- For me, moving away from home with my first job (in my case an apprenticeship at RAE Farnborough, may it rest in peace) did a huge amount to help me grow up, find my own life, and find what I really wanted from my life.
- Both apprenticeships are very competitive, so you may well not have the choice. You are VERY lucky to have been offered a prized RR apprenticeship.
- Both have a reputation for being great companies to work for.
- Both will be a great start to a career.
- Both are much more likely to move you into manufacture, and possibly later design, than maintenance. That doesn't necessarily pay quite so well, but the hours and working conditions are far kinder.
- Don't ask about overtime, bonuses, etc. until you're already employed. Prior to that, it will be seen as showing the wrong attitude.

In your position, I'd accept the RR apprenticeship, whilst at the same time working at the Marshalls interview. If you don't get offered an apprenticeship in Cambridge, you lost nothing - if you do, then you'll have by then had a look at the company, its work, and its attitude to its workforce. THEN you're really well placed to make a decision. Don't force yourself to make one until then.

If you do get offered both, and turn one down - even after an initial acceptance, somebody else will get the job and within a year they'll have forgotten you ever existed, so really don't feel that you have a moral issue there.

G

[FHA]

Good advice form G.T.E. there.
Whatever you do, just bear in mind that it's a long haul: no quick fix in aircraft engineering (so to speak!)
However, I reckon it'll be worth it and the mindset you have for getting a good apprenticeship and an engineering degree under your belt is commendable: great combination. Also, I can't understate how good it is to see decent standards of English and grammar in your post.:D That will do you no harm whatsoever as an aspiring future manager/director/executive.
Hopefully along the way you'll have a few laughs too, as is your right as a young lad!

[AdamLittlewood]

Genghis the Engineer, thank you for that reply. Definitely provoked a few thoughts! I am concerned that as Rolls Royce is so big it may easy to be lost in the crowd so to speak making it harder to progress within the company? I have to consider that it is a career I'm choosing, and I don't want to get stuck in a position where it would be difficult for me to progress. A lot of reading has taught me this type of career is no easy ride.
Obviously I have not secured a place at MA yet, but I am hoping I can do. Although, it would help my decision!

FHA, people who use bad grammar annoy me, I've always made a point of ensuring I don't make the same mistake!
Hmm, this is by far my biggest decision ever. Scary!

Adam

[Genghis the Engineer]

If anything, being in a big company on a structured training scheme can be better, since they'll move you around a lot to gain experience, and also you are probably not reliant upon "dead mens shoes" to advance. This was certainly true for me in MoD/RAE umpty-ump years ago, my Dad at Supermarine in the 1960s, and friends of mine at BAeS when I was doing my thing.

For graduates, I'm not sure it's quite so true, but for an apprentice I think it is.

G

[Pace152]

Hey there,

I worked at Rolls in Derby for a little while as a contractor and it was a very friendly place to work. Rolls really look after their staff and you'd get the chance to be working with cutting edge technology. :ok:

[Velcroworm]

I worked at MA for a couple of years back in the '90s. At the time I could honestly say it was the worst job I ever had. A thoroughly depressing place with some very unpleasant people running it.

Having said that, I had occasion to visit there earlier this year and had a chat with a few folks that I knew from back then and the consensus is that it has improved no end, partly due to the retirement fo the people responsible for making the place (Particuarly Hangar 17) so unpleasant. But walking through the hangars the place looked and felt little different from 1996.

They seem to be mostly doing military contracts these days, and largely on old technology such as C130s, L1011s etc. The large business aviation hangar there is no more, with their involvement in GA mostly restricted to Citations in the newer hangar up at their business aviation terminal, away from the main complex.

Can't tell you much about their training I'm afraid. But make sure you research all your alternatives thoroughly before you make any decisions. Good luck.

[JuergenP]

You need to knock on doors and present yourself personally. Rolls Royce is company with many opportunities beyond aerospace. You have to get yourself known...try and get an appointment at Rolls Royce. Push Push and Push thats the way to get known. Good Luck

[T.R Haychemu]

Adam,

Monarch are recruiting for apprentices I see for Manchester and Luton;

Apprenticeship in Aircraft Maintenance | Job Vacancies | Monarch (http://www.monarch.co.uk/jobs/vacancies/apprenticeship%20in%20aircraft%20maintenance)

I'd definately go for Monarch over MA, if you want to work hands-on on aircraft that is. You'll get licensed, and have an interesting, rewarding career :ok:

[T.R Haychemu]

.....as are Virgin;

Virgin Atlantic - Careers (http://gs19.globalsuccessor.com/fe/tpl_virgin01.asp?s=CenPmSXuHfWInKkWfc&jobid=73252,2321153465&key=86847224&c=983412148302&pagestamp=dbjqroxdaohfoufqwc)

Either of those mate will see you right. If you want to work on engines in a workshop go for Rolls. If you want to work on all aspects of aircraft systems, and fix engines on-wing and replace engines etc.....Virgin or Monarch FTW ;)

[AdamLittlewood]

Why would you pick Monarch over MA? Their apprenticeship is only a modern one wheras the MA one is a Higher and offers a degree?

[T.R Haychemu]

Given the choice, I'd pick Virgin first, then Monarch and then MA - if you want a hands-on aircraft job.

Essentially what you want from an apprenticeship is good training, on good aircraft types, and licenses. A degree is fine, but many Licensed Aircraft Engineers (LAEs) go on to get degrees later, by doing "top up" courses. A degree won't do you any favours at all when trying to get established as a good LAE in this industry - its true value is when you’re already an LAE with numerous years’ experience, looking to move into a management or perhaps QA role.

So placing little value on the degree at your stage, I'd be looking at which of those three employers will give me the better career, working on good types, for good rewards.

I don't know much of Marshall's civilian work, but I believe they do a lot of military work, which may not be able to be counted towards an EASA Part 66 license. Also, they have a reputation for being very poor payers.

Looking at what Virgin/Monarch do, well they are big UK airlines, flying around the world on the likes of A320, A330s, A340s, B747s and Virgin will soon have A380s, and Monarch will provide the UK Gold Care for Boeing 787. All of the above are fantastic aircraft to be experienced on, and should ensure you'll never be out of work - especially if you are given the opportunities for Type Ratings etc following your apprenticeship.

Working for an Airline is seen by many as the 'pinnacle' of aircraft maintenance. There are a few reasons for this, but generally the Pay, Benefits and opportunities for development are the best in the industry (and likely far above MA).

Working as B1 or B2 LAE for Monarch or Virgin, you'll likely end up on over £50,000pa, working 4 on 4 off, with a good pension scheme, Staff Travel (Heavy Discounts/Free Flights).

Those are my thoughts anyway, but I have a feeling a great many of the LAEs on this forum will agree that Virgin/Monarch would be a better bet than MA, and you can get a degree later on when it will actually be of benefit to you.

[Papa2Charlie]

Hi,

Just my two cents but I'd go with RR. The company offers great potential and has a top notch apprenticeship scheme. There are very clear and fair ways to progress in the company and if you have the drive and ambition, you'll go a lon way. On top of that, you'll also be working for one of the leading names in aviation and have Rolls-Royce appear on your CV which is eye catching to future employers.

Also, if you like travel, RR offers great opportunities given the number of operators and future growth of the company with the Trent 700, Trent 1000 and Trent XWB numbers in service due to sky rocket in the coming years.

Cheers,

P2C

[AdamLittlewood]

I am confused slightly about the whole LAE job role. If that makes sense? If I were to go the Virgin route, that seems more like aircraft maintenance rather than engineering? Or am I wrong?

Also, what is the route for Licences. Is it you A licence then either B1 or B2?
And do Virgin/ Monarch pay for all this?

Sorry if there questions seem stupid, but I'm still confused by how the licences work and what sort of job you get from them?
Thanks, Adam

[Papa2Charlie]

Hi,

In short, a license allows you to work on the aircraft and release the aircraft to service. The rating (e.g. A (ramp checks?), B1 (Airframe / Engine), B2(Avionics)) describes what you may and may not do on the aircraft.

If you were to end up with an engineering degree then you are unable to physically work on the aircraft (assuming you don't have a license) and sign off on that work. However, with a degree, your role in the company would most likely be different and be primarily office based. This can range from a trouble shooting role (i.e. directing the work on specific aircraft) to a fleet engineer role which would mean you'd be responsible for the fleet from an airworthiness / reliability / cost perspective.

In reality, both roads have their own benefits. If you're more of a hands on person then go for the apprenticeship role otherwise opt for an engineering degree / technical services role (or an apprenticeship with a company which supports further education).

Either way, pick the one that feels right for you.....more often than not, you're gut will give you the right answer.

All the best,

P2C.

[TURIN]

I have to say it's very refreshing to hear that someone has, potentially, a choice of career routes for a change.

Adam, you sound like you have your head screwed on the right way. If it's a degree you're after, don't go to an airline, they're not interested. If on the other hand you fancy working on multi-type aircraft/engine combinations in a variety of weather conditions then an airline will do you proud. ;)

The Aircraft Maintenance License has taken a beating over the years. The CAA always used to refer to it as an Engineering qualification, however under EASA it is now referred to as a Technician's License. The money's the same, just a name change that has upset a few of the Daily Mail readers.

Having spoken to a few who have done both Degree and License, all said the License was the more difficult. Wouldn't know myself as I didn't do the degree (stopped at HNC as the classroom tedium was driving me nuts):\

Best of luck with your choices, don't let the old lags put you off. :ok:


For what it's worth, BA are also taking on apprentices.

BA apprenticeship (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/09/01/346858/ba-apprentices-needed-to-help-build-third-party-mro.html)

2011 Intake (http://www.skyport-heathrow.co.uk/2011/02/ba-expands-apprentice-scheme.html)

[AdamLittlewood]

Whilst the Virgin Apprenticeship Scheme looks good, from what I can ake out they are only offering you the A Licence, and then you have to pay for your B1 or B2 Licence (which it appears you would need to get anywhere in this industry).
If I went the apprenticeship route with the degree would I not be allowed to work on planes then as I have no licences?
Whilst I am not choosing this career because of pay (I'm choosing it because I would love to design and work on aircraft), it is still an important factor to take into consideration..
Would a LAE with say a B1 licence earn more than someone working in aircraft with a degree? Or are the jobs you would be undertaking too different to compare?

Thank you everyone for all your help, I've definitely learnt a lot I didn't know about whilst I've been here!

Adam

[TURIN]

It depends Adam, an experienced B1/B2 who is prepared to travel and work all the hours possible can earn well in excess of £80,000 and year. Maybe more. Without the License you will not earn anywhere near that. An unlicensed mechanic working hands on will not get half of that. Genghis will give you a better idea of what a degree will do for you but in my experience a degree will not lead you to working hands-on.

Hope this helps. :ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

It depends what you mean by "hands on".

If you want to fix aeroplanes, don't do a degree, it's a waste of time, money and energy.

There are however plenty of people with degrees who are for example spending their lives in a lab - designing and testing equipment prototypes, wind tunnel testing models, managing trials. I spent quite a few years in a flying suit, using what I learned on my degree sat with a Test Pilot, managing flight trials - I certainly didn't anticipate when I graduated in 1992 that by 1995 I'd be earning part of my living strapped into a fast jet, and some of working on an aircraft carrier.

On the other hand, there are also plenty of people with degrees who spend their life sat at a desk in front of a computer, and a proportion of people with licences who do the same.


If you don't want to sit at a desk much, then your best bet is an apprenticeship, but research lab work is one of the things a degree can get you into, and can be incredibly rewarding - and certainly rarely involves sitting at a desk or wearing a suit.

Engineers with a degree and a lot of practical experience probably do have the best choice of jobs. They've also spent a lot of years studying, and that's not to everybody's taste - either a licence or a degree will take 4+ years, and then you need experience as well as your degree/licence before you have much choice of jobs or a decent salary. In either case, you really need to WANT to work in this industry, just to see your way through the training.

An apprenticeship with Rolls or Marshalls should put you very hands on - mostly in build or maintenance. There will be options if you do well to switch to management or labwork, the latter particularly at Rolls. I can think of worse jobs than testing prototype jet engines.

G

[AdamLittlewood]

Whatever I choose I'll be doing an apprenticeship. But what I meant was do I do one that allows me to get a degree, or allows me to become an LAE?
Both apprenticeships will include 4 years experience etc.
But what is better to have?

Adam

[Genghis the Engineer]

Nobody can answer that but you... A degree was best for me, plenty of the other people here are having great careers with licences.

There is no absolute 'best'.

G

[AdamLittlewood]

I can see exactly what you're saying. It seems neither degree or licence are better than the other. I guess really I just need to decide which apprenticeship would offer me the most interest and put me in the best place for a career?
I'm glad to have found this helpful forum :)

Adam

[AdamLittlewood]

Another quesiton I have, but I thought it best to post here rather than start a new topic.
I've been doing some more reading, and would I be right in saying that people who are currently just starting out and obtaining their licences are finding it difficult to secure jobs, or the experience to complete their licences?

Thanks, Adam

[Genghis the Engineer]

Everybody has that problem in aviation - pilots, maintenance engineers, aeronautical engineers...

You need the qualification, but you also need the experience - without which you are a well qualified tea boy. Getting that first couple of years of experience is a real struggle.

G

[boeing_eng]

It is true that currently it’s a fairly tough time to be starting out in the aircraft maintenance industry. Certain companies have cut right back on apprenticeships and I’m aware of some contractors (non-licensed) who have had fairly recent cuts to their hourly rates (something unheard of not so long ago)

However, this is a very cyclical industry and even allowing for the increasing trend to send aircraft to other continents for heavy maintenance, there will always be a good need for line engineers. There is also the issue of the number of experienced licensed engineers who will be retiring in the next 10-15 years (myself included) Currently, there is simply not the numbers being trained in many airlines and MRO’s to replace these engineers and the problem won’t go away!

If you have been offered an apprenticeship with an airline then you won’t have an issue with gaining the experience required for Licenses. Most of the problems of this nature are faced by folks who are starting out self-studying or attending the theory-only JAR147 approved courses.

[T.R Haychemu]

As boeing eng says - If you went for one of the airline apprenticeships with A/B1/B2 licence training, you will get all the experience you need, no worries at all.

It's only the guys who went to university etc to get a degree/basic licence course that struggle to get placements. And it's getting tougher for them now as I believe the DFT want anyone going airside (either on a permy pass or temp pass) to be employed - so being an unpaid trainee with a pass to come in for OJT is going to become harder!

I'm baised I guess, but I'd apply for Monarch/Virgin.
You'll get some of the best training in the industry, a licence, all the experience you require, and if your 17 now, by your mid-late 20's, you should be on £45k+overtime, with a few holidays a year for next to nothing. Not many of your mates will be outside of aviation.

[AdamLittlewood]

Well after hearing what everyone has said and still having not made up my mind I decided to apply to Virgin before I decide that I would like to be an LAE and it's too late.
I have another interview at MA on the 30th :)

A quick look on the Virgin website, and one question to ask.
Do the only train you to an 'A' level engineer. After the apprenticeship must you then pay, and gain the epxerience to become a 'B1/ B2' licensed engineer?

Thanks, Adam

[boeing_eng]

Most companies train their apprentices to A License standard (mine does) Assuming you continue working hands-on in the industry, to progress to B1/B2 level will involve fulfilling the experience criteria (which will basically involve recording the details of the work you have carried out as part of your job) You will also have to pass the relevant exams. The only possible cost to you will be CAA exam fees (although a lot of companies pay for these anyway) Should you choose to attend course/s to prepare you for the exams there may also be cost (but Virgin have an excellent training school and may give you courses for free!)

Hope this helps

[AdamLittlewood]

Oh I thought you had to pay for training and exams and that cost thousands?
Or is that just for people who won't be training with them through the apprenticeship programme?

Adam

[boeing_eng]

Correct....As an apprentice you will not be expected to fork out for any training costs. There may be License admin/exam fees (if you have to sit those with the CAA) but as I mentioned previously, most companies refund these.

The big fees are incurred by those who self-fund JAR147 "ab-initio" approved courses (as they are effectively covering all the costs themselves)