QANTAS AIPA 7.30 report

[The The]

So the first strike action by Qantas International pilots in 40 something years? And the best thing Qantas can do is roll out Olivia to speak on the Company's behalf?

So where is Joyce, Strambi? Bueller? Bueller?

Executives in hiding? Do they sense a management backdown? Should it just be Olivia who needs to update her CV?

[unionist1974]

Well go for it boys and girls if thats what you feel . Me I sense Mr O has laid another trap for you . Only my opinion and not worth a lot to you folk . Or is it ?

[600ft-lb]

Me I sense Mr O has laid another trap for you . Only my opinion and not worth a lot to you folk . Or is it ?

You seem to think people care about what a retired perma-AME thinks, otherwise you would stop posting.

[What The]

Not the Oldmeadow boogie monster!

Mate if you seriously think that he has any tricks apart from extracting ridiculous sums of money from Qantas then you must sleep with a light on.

I know no one who even considers him to be other than another overpaid consultant who this time does not have the silver bodgie and the fat Jew to aid his cause.

I believe he is a major cause of the problems that Qantas face today. When you paint people into a corner and they feel they have no other option, what outcome do you expect.

[The Kelpie]

Wirth was Wirthless talking with seeming authority on historical Qantas Industrial relations

I suspect Mr Joyce is putting his affairs in order before next Friday, he and Bruce have got some serious explaining to do.

CC reported they were tucking into P class on the A380 yesterday to Singas. Might be P block in Canberra Jail in a couple of weeks if they don't start telling the truth!!

LOL

[unionist1974]

yes , retired mmm but still connected , but know the beast you are about to face , still was not always that bad to us simple AMe's. Take Care , remember a certain ex PM his is best mate , who happens to be sponsering Mr Combet . Go think , if you can1

[Angle of Attack]

It was a good article for the pilots, QF came across as hopeless, they commented on a pay rise but it was way overshadowed by the outsourcing of jobs. Almost looked like a semi backdown by the managers, Olivia has zilch credibility even Joe Public can see that she is a 20's something manager fresh from uni. Even made me slightly embarassed by her ramblings! lol!:ok:

[unionist1974]

Yes another soldier lost in battle , but paid well for the short time she will be there.

[Angle of Attack]

Haha yeah hardly call her a soldier though, my bet she is GONE from her position extremely soon! :E

[blow.n.gasket]

Really AofA?
The impression I got was it's about a 26% pay rise.
Stay on tune guys.
Push the message that this is all about Aussie jobs for Aussies working for an Aussie Icon.
Refute,refute,refute the Company's spin over the 26% pay rise, 'cos that's what's going to stick in the average joes mind.

About JetConnect, wasn't it President Jackson who agreed in writing with Qantas as part of EBA7 rollover documentation that the Association "recognises the role of Jetconnect"

Tell me this isn't a "shot ones foot off "moment already?

As for the EBA7 rollover, tell me didn't EBA8 the EBA that shall not be spoken off ,have an agreement that any aircraft ,including the 787 with a red rat on the tail would be flown under the Terms and conditions of that EBA.

As for the indecent haste President Jackson binned the Qantas Sale Act Case, a case who's very essence was the proving and hopeful prevention of Qantas and it's entities from off-shoring.

So President Jackson is in reality just playing catchup.

Get with the program guys you really need to get on top of your media game if you are going to have a chance to get your message across to the average travelling public.

I give it a fail from a media point of view for a first shot across the bows from President Jackson to Qantas management over the upcoming PIA.:(

[Popgun]

The alleged 26% pay increase needs to be strongly and publicly refuted...there will be no empathy and support from Joe Public if they think this action is being considered over what would be an obscene grab for $$$$$!

[Angle of Attack]

The 26% pay rise was quoted a couple of times whereas the offshoring of jobs was quoted a lot more,...so yes really.
:ugh:

[unionist1974]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm , giys and girls refer my earlier post , but best wishes with your campaign .
In Solidarity.

[33 Disengage]

First round to the pilots!

You came out of your corner strong; QF corporate, the best they could put up was a junior publicist reciting the 26% mantra.

Prove me wrong - state in the national press how you calculate the 26%, Qantas. Then let the pilots show how you are attempting to deceive the public.

Unfortunately it's the same game plan that we have seen before. When it's all over, there will be a few middle managers deciding 'to pursue other opportunities', a CEO and a chairman shown to have poor judgement, Qantas brand will be further damaged, and the general public will still prefer to be on an a/c with QF pilots at the pointy end.

[blow.n.gasket]

Realy Aof A.
I had a couple of mates who have nothing to do with aviation watch the 7.30 report and got them to call after the event about what the media piece said to them "Joe average traveling public"

The response was as follows " It's just like the '89 dispute with Ansett pilots who were after a huge pay rise, what's it this time 26%?
No more starry eyed 28 yr old dreamer crying about a romantic
career in aviation of a bygone era.That won't cut it with the public today and will leave you open to company claims you're not in touch with reality"

Just a few points from 2 ordinary Joe's.

They didn't "connect" with what the Union had to say.

They are who you need to convince, not 2500 Qantas pilots.

Sounds to me like you need a better Media advisor.
That's assuming you actually have someone.

Better luck next time.

The Vox Pop from industry outsiders was Olivia Worthless won this round.:ouch:

[Jabawocky]

Ateast the RAAF have C17s now......

History has a bad habit of repeating itself :uhoh:

[unionist1974]

bng , very good post , I agree with you as said earlier guys , be aware of who you are taking on Julia would love a good distraction , but as ever i am not in this, so your call .
In Solidarity.

[Kharon]

The fellah who set his feet on fire to keep his hands warm ?.

Good luck guys.

[Bates Motel]

To show the Co. and public the pilots are serious about their jobs, simply drop the pay claim and concentrate on what's of the utmost importance, jobs for aussie pilots now and in the future.

The creative accounting they've used to arrive at 26% is all they've got. Take that away and they've got nothing.

It would also serve to avoid any misinformation that paints pilots as greedy silvertails.

[ozbiggles]

I would simply ask the PR idiot next time
Q. So are you saying that a pilot on 200K will get a 52K pay rise?
PR idiot Answer; Ah....well....nooooo....but when you ummm add up the ummm all the extras ummm, well....
So its not really 26% is it?
Ah wellll noooo....but.....

[What The]

Who cares what the public thinks. The public think what the media want them to think. This has been proven for many many years.

What I care for, is what Qantas pilots think. That will be the determining factor. Personally, I have had enough of the lies, deceit and blatant disregard for all of the employees of QF by management who have no idea how to relate to people.

What do we have to lose? If I lose my job, so does the CEO, CFO, CP etc.

ENOUGH of the touchy feely, bring it on!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I call it a 0-0 draw.

[surfside6]

Qantas in worst industrial dispute in decades

Reporter: Conor Duffy

Qantas pilots are preparing to take industrial action for the first time in 45 years.

Transcript
LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: 7.30 can reveal that thousands of airline travellers may face disruptions in coming months, with the pilots' union threatening industrial action against Qantas for the first time in 45 years. The union says the fight's over the outsourcing of jobs, but Qantas says it's about pilots demanding a 26 per cent pay rise. Conor Duffy reports.

NATHAN SAFE, QANTAS PILOT: As soon as I could recognise the shape of an aeroplane in the sky, I knew I wanted to be an airline pilot. And I was very lucky at age 20 to become a Qantas pilot. It was probably the happiest day of my life so far and I hope that the saddest day of my life so far isn't the day that I have to leave Qantas.

CONOR DUFFY, REPORTER: With 90 years of tradition and an enviable safety record, Qantas has long been considered the career pinnacle for Australian pilots.

But now its long-haul pilots who fly internationally and on some domestic routes are on the brink of filing for industrial action.

RICHARD WOODWARD, AUST. & INTERNATIONAL PILOTS ASSN: 1966 was the last time that we took industrial action and to push to this point is really, really sad for all of us.

OLIVIA WIRTH, QANTAS SPOKESWOMAN: We remain hopeful that we can continue negotiating with the union rather than them take this very drastic measure to take action against the airline.

CONOR DUFFY: For 28-year-old second officer Nathan Safe, the idea of speaking out against Qantas was once unthinkable.

NATHAN SAFE: I wasn't born the last time Qantas airline pilots struck and in 1989 I was six years old, so it's not something I'm personally familiar with. However, I think we all feel that it's getting to the point where we have to look at going down that path.

CONOR DUFFY: That 1989 strike action by Ansett pilots was one of the most dramatic industrial disputes in the country's history and left thousands of travellers stranded.

The then Hawke Government called in Air Force pilots to help break it and the company eventually prevailed.

JOHN BUCHANAN, ECONOMIST, UNI. OF SYDNEY: That dispute was only ultimately resolved with immense government support for the employers. You'll remember the Defence Department put the Air Force at its disposal.

RICHARD WOODWARD: People actually accused me of being in 1989. Qantas pilots never went on strike in 1989. We were flying all through that. It wasn't anything to do with us. So for us to get to this point shows you how serious we are and how concerned we are about the future of aviation.

CONOR DUFFY: The Qantas pilots say it's fear of losing their jobs that is motivating them today. Qantas set up a company called Jetconnect which employs New Zealand cabin crew and pilots and now operates many of the flights between Sydney and New Zealand. The unions are challenging that arrangement in Fair Work Australia.

NATHAN SAFE: It's difficult to see your career path evaporating day by day and to avoid not getting a very disheartened about all of that.

RICHARD WOODWARD: A young pilot joining today may not have a career in 10 or 15 years time because the companies decide to send those aeroplanes overseas, repaint them or pay 'em 30 or 40 per cent less to do the same job. So we're just trying to hold the line. It's about Australian jobs for Australian pilots flying on an Australian icon.

CONOR DUFFY: Qantas management says Jetconnect has operated more almost 10 years without redundancies. They say this argument is all about pay and accuse the pilots of seeking a pay rise of 26 per cent over three years.

OLIVIA WIRTH: We haven't made a pilot redundant since 1971. During the Global Financial Crisis, when times were tough and we made around 20 per cent cut in management, we didn't make any pilot redundant during this time. We're obviously very committed to providing job security for all our employees, not only our pilots.

CONOR DUFFY: 7.30 can reveal the pilots union's management committee has authorised its President, Barry Jackson, to file an application for protected industrial action with Fair Work Australia. It's expected to be lodged sometime in the next week and pilots will then vote in a secret ballot.

Given the depth of feeling at this 300-strong off-duty pilots' meeting last month, the union leadership believes it'll comfortably attract a majority.

NATHAN SAFE: It's basically coming up to a point where it's almost do or die for us. If we want to stay in the jobs we're in, doing the job we do, a job that we do do very well, then we need to take a stand.

OLIVIA WIRTH: We remain committed to the negotiations. We would ask the union to come back to the table and we remain hopeful.

CONOR DUFFY: Late today, the pilots' union finalised the terms of its application for projected industrial action. While it doesn't include strikes, 7.30 understands it does include stop-work meetings and work-to-rule actions that could delay flights.

RICHARD WOODWARD: We've got no intention of disrupting the travelling public, absolutely none, but we may actually do minor disruptions. If we do that we'll certainly give the public plenty of notice and we'll tell 'em when we're going to do it and why we're going to do it. We'll make sure we explain to everyone.

OLIVIA WIRTH: Obviously any industrial action taken by the union which would impact Qantas international operations would not be good news for the airline or for the passengers. We would be very disappointed if any of these actions impacted on disruption, impacted on the Qantas brand and ultimately impacted on people's intention to travel with Qantas.

CONOR DUFFY: Any further decline in market share would be a massive blow for Qantas international. The last decade has been tough and the national airline's international market share has fallen.

JOHN BUCHANAN: In the markets they served 10 years ago they had around a third, and the Qantas core carrier now is down to 20 per cent, with Jetstar delivering another seven or eight per cent. So, in very tangible terms they just don't have the market share they used to in their traditional routes.

CONOR DUFFY: The negotiating teams for the pilots and Qantas will meet again tomorrow and management will be hoping industrial action can be stopped before the busy Easter period.

[Black Condor]

Who cares what the public thinks. The public think what the media want them to think. This has been proven for many many years.
I seem to remember an Ansett pilot saying the same thing once.
What do we have to lose? If I lose my job, so does the CEO, CFO, CP etc
Keep telling yourself that.Do you have a mortgage?
be aware of who you are taking on Julia would love a good distraction
Carbon tax debate,what carbon tax debate?

Personally,I would prefer that you guys win but you will need public support to stop the government supporting the airline.

Best of luck

[FGD135]

Can you tell us why it ISN'T a 26% pay rise?

[framer]

Bates Motel is right.
Drop the pay claim completely. I think thats the only way to have the media look at it from the right angle, otherwise they will just go round and round in circles with whether or not the pilots deserve a 26% payrise and the real issue will be lost.

[hcmcmcclown]

Nathan Safe you must have the patience of an oyster......8 years and still a second officer...And that is supposed to be a career path!!

[dragon man]

The only reason pilots wernt retrenched during the GFC was because they made us take annual/long service leave. As for the executives for every 4 weeks leave they took they were given half of it back again as a defacto bonus. Hypocrites!

[Mr. Hat]

The question is:

If you don't stand up now when do you stand up?

[h.o.t.a.s.]

I agree.

-Drop the pay claim entirely, provided the job security claim is met. (A significant pay cut over those years in real terms, yes, yet what is job security really worth?)

-Drop the payload bands, come up with a fleet pay proposal.



Take away their ammo!!!!!

[RENURPP]

Why not use the modern media to get your side across?

T w itter, face book, email, if some one put a story together and you distribute the facts via modern media the public will learn the story WITHOUT interference from the "mainstream" media.

If it's being/been done before it wasn't very effective as I am in a couple of QF pilot address books and haven't heard a razzoo.

Quite frankly, there are not too many that need convincing on pprune, you would be better spending 1 minute forwarding your argument to your address book.

(why can't we use the words t w itter or face book on here?)

[rowdy trousers]

If Ms Firth is the best they can do, there is probably not too much to worry about (what's with the hair - is that the latest fashion, or she just couldn't be bothered putting a brush through it?).

Here we have not much more than a gen. me uni. graduate giving a history lesson on QF industrial relations - if it wasn't so arrogant it would be funny, she's been here 5 minutes and will be gone in another 5, while for the majority of pilots it is a life time committment.

PLEASE AIPA use our resources to engage a PR consultant to take Ms Firth to task, how hard could it be? The 26% crap has to be de-bunked if there is to be any hope of getting the media and public on side.

[astroboy55]

So when wirthless says 'we have not made a pilot redundant since 1971'....where are copies of the QF memo's from 09/10 that stated 'unless $8m can be saved, these 87 pilots will be made redundant? WHY HAVEN'T THE MEDIA BEEN MADE AWARE OF THIS!!!!!!

[rmcdonal]

Nathan Safe you must have the patience of an oyster......8 years and still a second officer...And that is supposed to be a career path!!
8 years and I can't even get into Qantas. As a SO he makes more then I can as a 10 year training Captain where I am. Even if he took a 26% pay cut he would still be on more then me.
Don't get me wrong, I would love for Qantas to start moving again, at least then the rest of us can have a chance to get in.

[Keg]

The media have been. Sometimes they report it. Other times they don't.

[Jack Ranga]

Drop the pay claim completely. I think thats the only way to have the media look at it from the right angle


Yep, that's the way to go, no payrise and actually going backwards. Eventually you can drop your pay altogether and fly the A380 for nothing like your GA brothers :ugh: Wait til the carbon tax gets a hold on your paypackets. :ok:

I doubt very much whether ATC had public support when the lies spewed forth from Clown Castle in Canberra. This battle will not be fought on public opinion, it will be fought on the bottom line. When share holders start seeing the damage done to that bottom line, then and only then, will your (mis) 'management' come to the table.

P.S. I think some of the public are smart enough to know that a 26% payrise is NOT what this dispute is about.

[Shark Patrol]

To you guys saying "drop the pay claim to zero". Have you heard the term "negotiate"?

[rodchucker]

Jack agree, but it makes the debate every time from the Rat, so take away their oxygen. Target that issue in national press to highlight the errors of their arguments. Take it head on, make it big, make it loud.

If you cave in, they have their first win.

As an outsider I wish I could see more PR from AIPA.... PLEASE go on the front foot with specialists. If you guys cannot win this one you will never recover.

If it is true that Jstar cadets are grounded stick the knife to AJ and BB while you can because I can see the wirthless spin coming now..." see the system works, we stopped it in its tracks when we were not happy".

Get on the front foot as the informed public will be behind you if you win the hearts and minds and it is the public that will keep the pressure on the pollies.Maybe Senator X should ask the Rat Board ...what the phark is going on in your company that we as legislators have to hold this enquiry?

[megle2]

Round 1 to Qantas
Method - What Ever It Takes - its all in the book ie Graham Richardson
Push 26% pay rise
Press will run with that
Joe Public will switch off over unreasonable pay demand

Pilots can blab on about real reasons but after 26% is mentioned no one is listening

To regain control you will have to kill the 26% Qantas weapon

[Wandering]

Now I am wondering, Qantas PR person quoted you demanding 26 % pay increase. What percentage ARE you asking for?

[astroboy55]

pay increase....2.5%

year on year increase, including travel benefits etc, 3.2%

Your real question should be...what are the 60 odd claims QF have made against us?

[Professional Amateur]

"Your real question should be...what are the 60 odd claims QF have made against us?"

What are the 60 odd claims then?

[OneDotLow]

Without going into the details :

AIPA have asked for a 2.5% headline rate (less than CPI) in order to trade that money for longer term job security. There is more to it than that though, as AIPA have also asked for a change in travel entitlements and job security.

Due to the management "cutbacks" that were made a few years ago and the associated package renegotiation, people who have been in the company as little as 1 year can now boot a 25 yr pilot (and his family) off a flight under the staff travel scheme. Being a job where pilots spend a lot of time away from family, and sometimes try to offset this "lost time" by taking family members away with them, the situation has now reached the point where they can no longer take family away for fear of leaving an 8 yr old daughter or 11 yr old son in Bangkok alone, because they can no longer get a seat in the cabin (or a jumpseat - but thats another issue).

So AIPA have asked for one firm economy seat (upgradable space avail) each year per crew member in order to guarantee that their family will not be left behind under these circumstances. QF have 'interpreted' this at the FULL FARE cost of a first / business seat for each crew member once per year. I guess this is their worst case scenario, but this is a large part of their 26% pay increase claims.

The fact is that in terms on money, AIPA have asked for 2.5%, and are yet to negotiate any increased efficiencies by us which will lead to savings for QF.

The second part of the claim is for job security. AIPA have said that if QF want to take a QF service and replace it with a JQ service the next day, then they have to pay QF rates to the crew or negotiate with AIPA. There is nothing to stop them from starting up JQ/other entity flying a route 12 months later. This also applies to code sharing.

In addition, if QF want to start up an overseas QF basing using overseas crew (a la Jetconnect), then they have to pay QF rates to these pilots to lessen the incentive to start the base. Legally, AIPA cannot stop QF from starting these basings, but they can ask that they are paid no less than QF rates.

QF have simply gone and costed the entire QF group getting a pay increase to QF mainline wages and placed this in the costings of AIPAs claim.

QF mainline pilots are quite happy to fly to more efficient rostering rules, and to only have a 2.5% pay increase in the current EA (EBA), but this will need job security provisions to be inserted into the contract in order to preserve the jobs long term.

It is dodgy accounting no matter which way you look at it. But then again, QF are pretty good at that...

[Transition Layer]

hcmcmcclown,

Nathan Safe you must have the patience of an oyster......8 years and still a second officer...And that is supposed to be a career path!!

FWIW, Nathan is actually an F/O on the 737. Hard to believe, but journos occasionally get the facts wrong! :hmm:

[Keg]

Professional amateur, Qantas have refused repeated requests to provide that list of items to crew. The question I asked on the forum provided by Qantas has been denied twice- and argued away with the normal QF spin- and ignored the second time.

The QF log of claims was made available by AIPA on the proviso that it not be released more widely than employees. So whilst we can talk in generalities of such things like QF's desire to make redundant pilots on a decreasing fleet- and thus getting rid of a lot of very experienced F/Os and Captains on the 767 in a few years despite that QF supposedly 'value' experience according to the new posters around the place- instead of doing what is currently in the award, the reality is that QF pilots simply can't provide the minutiae on PPRUNE.

Onedotlow has provided a good summary. What he's neglected was that the QF summary was that the 'seat' that Qantas costed was a London return even though the reality is that most 767 drivers would use the seat for a Perth return, most A330 drivers would use it for somewhere in SE Asia or perhaps to the US.

[hcmcmcclown]

I am guessing that he will have a long and rewarding career in the RH seat of the 737 after publicly denigrating the company he works for....A brave young man with no concept of consequences.

McClown

[mcgrath50]

I am guessing that he will have a long and rewarding career in the RH seat of the 737 after publicly denigrating the company he works for....A brave young man with no concept of consequences.


Assuming he was acting as a representative of the union this would be illegal (albeit very hard to prove as all HR decisions are subjective).

Good on him for having the balls to do what is right and be a LEADER. Surely will make a good captain one day!

[dragon man]

I believe the 26% comes from AIPAs claim for 2 pay types 767/330 and 747/380. Both would be on the higher of the present pay rates of each category. Because AIPA hasnt said how long it would be for this to be phased in Qantas has said it would be immediate and therefore a 26% pay rise.

[Keg]

dragon man. Nope, even if the pay rates were brought in immediately (which is not part of AIPA's claim) I think it's something like 14% over three years. The additional 12% QF are using is by misrepresenting the travel claims. QF has admitted to using the travel claims to come up with their 26% figure when answering questions from crew on QF's question and answer forum.

The base line pay claim is for 2.6% per annum and a readjustment of some of the scales that would see some crew get a bit more than that.

[rodchucker]

As much as I don't like to admit it, the Rat spin doctors have tied you guys into knots on the pr re the pay issue if we cannot get consensus here.

It needs to be rapidly fixed if you are to keep them to the main game rather than diversions/waffle.

Surely some PR guru can fix this easily?

[Keg]

The biggest issue is the dispute isn't about pay- although even here that's all many outside of the dispute can focus on. The issue is job security.

The other lie told by Olivia Wirth was her comment about pilots coming back to the negotiating table. The pilots have never left the negotiating table. We continue to negotiate with the most recent meetings being within the last fortnight and another previously scheduled meeting happening today. It's typical of the Qantas 'spin' though. If she's prepared to lie about whether we are still talking to them do you reckon she's prepared to lie about the pay claim too?

Again, this is not about money.

[Vindiesel]

Safey has been on the AIPA committee for a few years now and has been a short haul pilots negotiator. Suggesting he is some sort of naive idiot is pretty wide of the mark.

[FGD135]

You will not pick up any public support over the "job security" provisions you are seeking.

I can't think of any corporation that offers any kind of guaranteed "job security".

It is just not possible for any corporation to offer job security. Only if they were a charity would such provisions be possible - but even then, there could still be no guarantees.

To ask for "job security" is to ask the impossible. Such an ask will help the PR machine to identify you with the "greedy" 89'ers.

Just a suggestion.

[Datum]

'Job Security' is not implying a guarantee to keep pilots employed no matter what; it's about putting a stop to the blatant offshoring of Australian jobs and the undermining of an established/experienced workforce which helps contribute to the overall strength of the company!

[FGD135]

'Job Security' is not implying a guarantee to keep pilots employed no matter what; it's about putting a stop to the blatant offshoring

Ok, but you will need to find a way to stop the PR machine from referring to it as "job security".

The PR machine will push the view that by demanding job security, the Qantas pilots are demanding something that no other worker in Australia enjoys.

[rodchucker]

Qantas have made the pay issue the public battleground because that is where they want to fight,to avoid the other issues in the public domain.

I say again, kill their oxygen and bring it back to the REAL issues.

This battle has two fronts in the meeting room and in the media.
Both are equally important if it cannot be solved behind closed doors.

For the life of me I cannot understand why these Execs constantly want to fight with everyone. They have so many fronts they must be wondering when they can get back (accept a leap of faith with that assumption) to actually running the business provided they can walk out after the next Senate hearing.

Borghetti must be loving this.

['holic]

The PR machine will push the view that by demanding job security, the Qantas pilots are demanding something that no other worker in Australia enjoys.Funny you should mention that. While it's unacceptable for Australian workers, it's ok for NZ employees to have a job security clause in their contract - as per Jetconnect.

[ozbiggles]

Well a good journo might put to the PR ..... girl what the pay claim without the staff travel is. I would love to see her spin on that.
But how disgusting that someone who a few weeks ago was singing the praise of the companies pilots would stoop so low as to this.
I guess thats her job......I hope she is proud of herself.

[Jabawocky]

Borghetti must be loving this.

If he plays his cards right and gets the A330's working well, there will be a lot of folk like me watching to see what happens and most likely booking VB well ahead to ensure any critical travel is not going to be affected.

Retard Vehicle will get more hours this year :)

[MrWooby]

Spokepersons need to have credibility, Wirth has none. Qantas needs to have its act together regarding PR, operational aspects need to be addressed by a senior pilot (with grey hair), commercial issues by a senior manager. Having a Gen whatever with no airline experience as your spokesperson doesn't go down well in the media.

As for timing for any action, it couldn't be better. Virgin launcing its business class in a new aircraft, Qantas bleeding passeneger because of industrial action. Surely its time for management to realise that engaging with your employees and actually negoitating a win-win outcome is better than the style of management that has existed in the Dixon & Joyce days.

[point76]

Agree that the issue for Qantas ,Qantas Group and all Airline pilots in Oz should be the offshoring of Australian jobs ( rather than asking for job security which will never happen - just look at Telstra or the banks ).That is ,the crewing of VH registered aircraft by pilots of any background living and working overseas and on a 'foreign' contract and then flying into and out of Australia.In the process any expansion of Aussie jobs and future promotions are lost and the downward pressure on pay and conditions intensified ( which seems to be the main intent ).
Also, putting a career PR person not long out of school with no real Airline background on TV to answer serious questions about an Airline and Airline Pilots that have been around for a very long time was simply treating the pilot group with contempt and doesn't do anything for QF's relationship with its drivers.

[Fris B. Fairing]

For the life of me I cannot understand why these Execs constantly want to fight with everyone.

To quote "Yes Minister":

"Ministers love activity Bernard. It's their substitute for achievement."

[unionist1974]

don't you guys get it , they could not care less about Wirthless , killed your claims , all about a big pay rise in the minds of the punters i talk to.

[breakfastburrito]

unionist1974, there is now a perfect storm brewing with the Jetconnect FWA case, Senate inquiry & the NZ cadets contracts. These are very difficult facts for the company to spin, as they strengthen the unions claim that this is about jobs & safety standards, not money.

I have followed the financial shenanigans in the US very closely, and have seen how the well oiled propaganda machine swings in behind its paymaster, in this case, the financial industry. The lies, spin & bullsh!t is unbelievable considering the fraud, looting & plundering of 99.9% of the US populus that continues to this day.

The media here will be no different. I would expect no support what so ever from the commercial media. No matter how minuscule the claim by the pilots, there will be zero in the way of balanced reporting from the Murdoch papers (hard right wing) or commercial TV. In short, there is virtually zero chance of favourable coverage in the commercial media, of which is the sole media diet for the vast majority of the Australian public.

A little history if I may:
“In March, 1915, the J.P. Morgan interests, the steel, ship building and powder interests and their subsidiary organizations, got together 12 men high up in the newspaper world and employed them to select the most influential newspapers in the United States and sufficient number of them to control generally the policy of the daily press in the United States.
“These 12 men worked the problems out by selecting 179 newspapers, and then began, by an elimination process, to retain only those necessary for the purpose of controlling the general policy of the daily press throughout the country. They found it was only necessary to purchase the control of 25 of the greatest papers. The 25 papers were agreed upon; emissaries were sent to purchase the policy, national and international, of these papers; an agreement was reached; the policy of the papers was bought, to be paid for by the month; an editor was furnished for each paper to properly supervise and edit information regarding the questions of preparedness, militarism, financial policies and other things of national and international nature considered vital to the interests of the purchasers.
Congressional record, Vol 54, Feb 9, 1917, p. 2947

This is an age old game, why would it be any different now? The airline is the paymaster (advertising).

[megle2]

U1974 - it seems obvious that they don't get it.
The 26% is the only thing Joe Public took in, a 26% payrise, wow.
Whether its a fact or not, matters not!

[ACT Crusader]

Good post breakfast and while the "perfect storm" you mention might be brewing due to the currency of those 3 matters coinciding with Pilot negotiations, the complexity alone of the issues raised in the 3 matters will not get any air time from any of the mainstream media. The likes of Ben Sandilands might write his regular pieces but industry insiders and genuinely interested parties/individuals will only read that stuff and digest the broader issues.

Trying to explain a JetConnect issue or make traction out of it is nigh on impossible. Unless there are illegalities (which I'm not aware of any) involved then it will be a very difficult sell for the AIPA. It's not impossible if they target one issue (not sure the broad banner of job security or even offshoring is it) but in any negotiation there is always a message that both sides can use to their advantage.

[clotted]

Nathan Safe you must have the patience of an oyster......8 years and still a second officer...And that is supposed to be a career path!!
I was talking to a Qantas mate today and this guy apparently is a B737 F/O and has been for a while. Don't they work under a different EBA to that which is the subject of this dispute? Wouldn't that make him ineligible to participate in any PIA and vote in any possible EBA settlement? My mate also said that he is an AIPA committee member. Wouldn't it have been better for them to get a different front man who actually is covered by the EBA in dispute?

[TIMA9X]

But how disgusting that someone who a few weeks ago was singing the praise of the companies pilots would stoop so low as to this.
I guess thats her job......I hope she is proud of herself.Yeah it's sic:yuk: but you gotta say, these guys at the top don't play for the same team each week, they choose to moonlight with another team with a "shareholder" back line, to ensure the bonus incentive packages. This is not the same team that delivers the product daily, the ops side of the business, the heart of a good airline. Most realists, including shareholders surely must be getting the message, there is something not quite right with QF J* ops staff morale .....

Sadly, I missed the 7.30 report but after reading this thread, it got me thinking, it's just like the BA/Go marriage back in 1998, BAs LCC answer to Easy Jet & Ryan. Result, Easy buys Go a few years later. In fact, at the time Robert Ayling the then CEO of BA, was the driving force behind the setup of Go, and destroying staff morale, Result, later ousted and replaced by Rod Eddington, ex AN.

Sir Rod did a sterling job repairing the poorly tarnished staff morale at BA by seeing Go as "cannibalising the core business," He announced to sell the Go business, which ended swallowed up by the rapidly expanding Easy J via a investment fiance firm. (sound familiar?)
Periodical Publishing Awards - Customer Magazine of the Year 2000
Telegraph Travel Awards - Best Low Cost Airline 2001
Business Traveller Awards - Best Low Cost Airline 2001
The Guardian and Observer Travel Awards - Best Low Cost Airline 2002
Business Superbrand 2002
Sale
After returning a profit within 2 years, the incoming BA chairman Rod Eddington decided that Go had become a liability for BA, since it was cannibalising the airline's core business. It was clear to him that BA's priority had to be in restructuring its own full-service operations. In November 2000, British Airways said that Go “simply does not fit in with our full-service strategy” and that it would sell Go, valuing it at £100 million. In March 2001, British Airways gave private equity firm 3i negotiating rights to buy Go and on June 14th 2001 the deal was sealed. 3i owned 43%, with Go’s Management team, the City and Go people owning the rest; Barbara Cassani said, “Our people deserve the credit for Go’s success and that is why I want them to become co-owners of the airline.” On 16 May 2002, easyJet made an announcement that it was to buy Go for £374 million to expand its own operations. By December 2002, easyJet and Go operated under one Air Operators Certificate (AOC) and in April 2003 the airlines operated as one, fully under the easyJet brand. In November 2003, Barbara Cassani published a book titled - Go, An Airline Adventure.I like the line; It was clear to him that BA's priority had to be in restructuring its own full-service operations.

Some say, AJ & Co are simply copying the "Ayling management style," Sky Pirates, take the money and run!

When I think about it, we could all learn from the BA/Go marriage, management style, out dated, it has all been done before. Judging by what I have read on here, it's Déjà vu really.

2m.42 secs in on this video is probably why they got Wirth to do the 7.30 report, AJ answered badly for a CEO, in my view. Apologies for the re-post, but I think well worth a look again, I believe there is a lot more support for pilots than some on here believe.
.
f63e_OwE_4g


all my bold...
:ok:

[VR-HFX]

Firstly the board appoints someone who is clearly not up for the job and then he gets on national television and lies. Basically the shareholders get what they deserve.

Clearly JetConnect is an Australian controlled company.It has been proved.

The man is incompetent. He is a liar. He is a liability by any measure.

[TIMA9X]

Qantas workers pay fight (http://www.smh.com.au/national/ready-to-take-off-qantas-workers-launch-pay-fight-20110309-1bo1y.html)

me thinks AJ has some more work to do after reading this.
Qantas check-in staff at Sydney Airport have had enough. The 800 workers and their 600 colleagues in Melbourne are preparing to walk off the job in protest over the airline's refusal to grant them a 15 per cent pay rise over three years.
.
only 15 percent. wow.

Just downloaded the 7.30 report, the pilots were not damaged too much, Wirth not convincing at all, I believe she doesn't fit the role The journalist got the facts wrong re the 89 stuff .......etc

[AnQrKa]

The hero of QF32 was the Airbus. Most drivers worldwide would have returned it to terra firma.

"The most serious near disaster QF has ever faced" was probably the accident in BKK. The real hero of that accident was the golf course. Had it been SYD/HKG/SIN etc it would have been much worse.

[titan uranus]

ANQ...
At last, a realist with courage!
Spot on post.

[73to91]

The 26% is the only thing Joe Public took in
but not the staff on the ground!!


Spoke to my neighbour yesterday who asked did I see the 7:30 Report? He said that many staff (QF Head Office – office employees) were talking about it and don’t believe the 26% increase and that management are all liars however; the thing that bugged plenty of them is the talk about pilots wanting the staff travel benefit improvement. They believe that that is crap.

He said, they said (the other staff) that most thought that pilots always got a higher priority than most but asking these guarantees was wrong. Some were saying, what about cabin crew then what about other people on the ground who work long shifts and don’t see their families on say a Saturday or Sunday morning and the wife (or husband) has to do the sport shuffle?

They said that the major problem with staff travel benefits is the newer category for the new breed of managers, which is just wrong. Followed by the fact that it's harder to get to places these days because of JetStar and they hardly fly anywhere.

So if you multiply a small number in the office talking about the staff travel benefit x 100’s of small groups – the pilots might start to lose some support on the ground as well?

[Jetsbest]

All those staff similarly affected by the "new breed" of managers with unbeatable staff travel category (all agree it's wrong!) can do something about it, just like the pilots are trying to do, when their next EA discussion comes up!:rolleyes:
Why should they be annoyed about a group of employees who are prepared to make trade-offs to regain some of the relativity lost through changes to what management always said was "a privelege, not a right". Grow up people. :rolleyes::=

[noip]

AnQ

Riiiggghhhhttttttt .......

Sure you aren't missing a W from the front of your name?


N

[ozbiggles]

It is interesting that both anqrka and titan agree with each other so much .... and joined pprune within a month of each other too.What are the chances of that?....where there is smoke

[myshoutcaptain]

Next time you're in WA , pick up the West Australian and flick through the jobs - Cert 3 from TAFE , no experience , drilling holes in the ground >$120 000.:sad:

[AnQrKa]

NOIP/ozbiggles,

A little precious are we not.

Which part don’t you agree with?

There have been many cases of seriously disabled airliners surviving through the skills and training of non QF pilots. I am not suggesting QF pilots are not well trained or experienced, but MOST other fliers are also.

Its nice to see the back slapping on TV of the crew involved but it is creating a false image that QF pilots are unique.

TID edit

[teresa green]

Forced to listen to John Laws whilst getting a haircut this morning, he talked about the current problem and gave QF a bit of a shellacking over its past performance. He was in sympathy with the Pilots, and so would be not a bad idea if one of you blokes give him a call, and give him a few home truths, bearing in mind Gillard would rather be on the right side of him, rather than the wrong side, he would/could give the public a bit of insight. Now this would upset Joyce and his cronies more than a little bit, and would probably force one of the bosses out of his office rather than throwing poor little Gen Me to the wolves. Worth trying. (Oh, and call yourself Alan!):E

[33 Disengage]

Anqrka - I am not a pilot but do work for QF. Is every QF pilot's ability head and shoulders above every non QF pilot? No. As a group are they very well skilled? Yes. Did the crew of QF32 do a very good job? You bloody bet they did!! Are QF pilots being poorly treated by management? Yes they are!

Being from Europe you probably don't understand. In Australia we believe in a thing called 'a fair go'. 'A fair go' doesn't involve the management of your company failing to negotiate 'in good faith', decimating your job prospects, removing previously agreed benefits by stealth, not maintaining ones renumeration in regard to the cost of living, or lying to the Government re any of the above.

Please pass on the above to your mate, Titan!

[maggot]

Hey ANQ;

NOIP/ozbiggles,

A little precious are we not.

Which part don’t you agree with?

There have been many cases of seriously disabled airliners surviving through the skills and training of non QF pilots. I am not suggesting QF pilots are not well trained or experienced, but MOST other fliers are also.

Its nice to see the back slapping on TV of the crew involved but it is creating a false image that QF pilots are unique.

TID edit

Your bitterness if preventing you from realising that no-one is claiming this... Our beef with this matter is one minute AJ is patting us on the backs on TV then a few months later he's at our backs again, this time with a knife.

[noip]

An

You made a generalised, armchair statement about situations that were considerably more complex than you allude to.

No-one is saying QF mainline pilots are any better than any other pilot group from other First level airlines. They all strive to better themselves.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but if you think that on a world-wide basis, most other pilots are well trained or experienced, you need to get out more. Hence - would most pilots have returned the aircraft to terra-firma? Absolutely, they ALL would have. Not necessarily in one piece, or on the runway with a good touchdown and without an over-run or immolation though. A large number would NOT have achieved the outcome.

Just like the Hudson River. A great result in both cases by dedicated professionals that had luck, skill and great decision making on their side.


N

[Jack Ranga]

The hero of QF32 was the Airbus. Most drivers worldwide would have returned it to terra firma.

Ya reckon?

[Zapatas Blood]

"No-one is saying QF mainline pilots are any better than any other pilot group from other First level airlines."

Maybe not directly. But there are a lot of posts here from people who clearly allude to such an idea. And the media are gulping it up too, for the ratings.

And what exactly is a first level airline?

[Dale Hardale]

Jack Ranga -

QF pilots are the only crews who could have recovered this scenario??? That's bollocks.

I agree that most 380 pilots would get it back on the ground. The aircraft saved them.

[breakfastburrito]

Aircraft or crew saved the A380 situation? This would be the textbook definition of a hypothetical question. This question is unanswerable in any meaningful way. The scenario cannot & will not be replicated. Good engineering & good crew performance saved the day. That is the only conclusion that can be drawn.

One thing we can say, is that given some recent accidents, Adam Air, Yogyakarta, Taipei (SQ) & Turkish, QF1 amongst others, that crew performance does make a significant difference to the outcome. QF crews have had some tricky scenario's recently, and they have met the challenge. I would expect crews from many other other high standard operators from around the world to also meet these challenges, but it is not a forgone conclusion that every crew sitting in an RPT high capacity jet world wide can deal with every problem to a safe outcome. If it were, there would be no accidents.

[simsalabim]

I really hope it doesn't come to flight cancellation/delays but if it does the Australan media will smash the pilots. I can see the scenes now at airports around Australia with the A Current Affair reporters interviewing frothing at the mouth , angry overweight Yanks complaining that this "would never happen back home".
The incorrect public perception of pilots is that of an overpaid elite , jetting around the globe staying in 5 star hotels.The right wing conservative media will follow this line. I can see Mel or Kochie out at SIT now turning the whole thing into some obscene spectator sport not unlike their coverage of the Qld floods or the CHC earthquake.
Only one thing to do. Totally ignore all media coverage. If pilots are seriously concerned what Laws, Jones, Hadley , Grimshaw et al report then you may as well hoist the white flag now.

[manfred]

If pilots are seriously concerned what Laws, Jones, Hadley , Grimshaw et al report then you may as well hoist the white flag now.

Don't know about the rest but as alluded to in Teresa Green's earlier post, this link is to John Laws comments on radio this morning.

2SM - John Laws - Sydney's Talk, News and Entertainment Station (http://www.2sm.com.au/laws.html)

It's brief and right at the end of the audio highlights for the 10th of March but he does seem to be sympathetic to the pilot's cause, mentioning Job security and nothing about the 26% payrise line from management.

[noip]

Unless my memory fails me, I think you will find that John Laws has a pretty accurate pipeline for information and understanding of the Mainline pilot issues.


N

[Millet Fanger]

Engineers were in the same position last EBA; company against us, in the media spreading BS, handing out notes to pax saying what bastards we were. We won because we stayed united, had a good media message, and our demands were reasonable.

The pilots have a better case now than we did then. You aren't asking for a big pay rise but fighting a company that is off-shoring your jobs!

[Mstr Caution]

Noip, I believe thats still the case.

[unionist1974]

Whatever the LAME's achieved in their last dispute does not mean they will repeat that this time , nor the Pilots. Please stop this belief that things can go on as they where ! and get better. the world has changed for the better or the worse , for me the worse . I am an old unconstructed trade Unionist,sorry but i call it as I see it. Start too plan to protect for the future . Please!

[bushy]

If Qantas can employ people on overseas awards then other workers will be next. There is a free trade agreement with NZ and America may be next. All australians can be undercut by overseas workers if they get away with this one.
All you need is training in NZ (or soon in the USA) and a company regsistered there so you can use their employment conditions and pay scales.
Isn't that scary.
That appears to be what Qantas are trying to start
Joe public will be VERY interested in that.

[ACT Crusader]

Well media reports that the AIPA have cooled on lodging their application for a PiA ballot until at least next week when further meetings occur. The report I read noted that the AIPA came out an said the 2.5% increase trying to distance itself from the 26% figure. Not a bad ploy publicly. Maybe they've been reading some of the posts here :)

[aveng]

Truth is the first casualty of PIA, just ask the engineers. Seems to me your biggest problem is not what Qf will do but what JQ pilots flying the same machines for less money (A330) will do. That is what QF will use against you, you will seriously need to get them on side.
The next trojan horse will be the 787, why else would jetstar be getting them first if not to dictate the wage rate to all pilots and possibly engineers.

Good luck to you and stay together.

[AnQrKa]

“Is every QF pilot's ability head and shoulders above every non QF pilot? No.”

How obvious.

“As a group are they very well skilled? Yes.”

As are all airline pilots.

“Did the crew of QF32 do a very good job? You bloody bet they did!!”

As would most other crew. Don’t underestimate the power of using ur rat cunning to get the thing on the ground to save ones ass.

“but if you think that on a world-wide basis, most other pilots are well trained or experienced, you need to get out more.”

Actually, I have been out a lot. Probably more than you. How many airlines have you worked for outside Australia? What do you have to measure QF pilots against?

“QF crews have had some tricky scenario's recently, and they have met the challenge.”

So have crews from other airlines. Again, this is the type of comment that goes under the heading of “no one is saying that QF pilots are any better . . . . but gee whiz blah blah blah”. You all love implying it.

Unionist1974 is bang on the money. Be very carefull fighting the previous battle as the landscape has changed dramatically. The 787 will be a game changer industrially for both sides.

[breakfastburrito]

“QF crews have had some tricky scenario's recently, and they have met the challenge.”

So have crews from other airlines.
Did I not say that? Its very easy to selectively quote to change the intent 180 degrees:
QF crews have had some tricky scenario's recently, and they have met the challenge. I would expect crews from many other other high standard operators from around the world to also meet these challenges,

I've looked back carefully through this thread, I couldn't see anyone banging on about "we are the best", until you turned up with:
"The most serious near disaster QF has ever faced" was probably the accident in BKK.
Page 3 (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/444976-qantas-aipa-7-30-report-4.html#post6295457)
I presume you are quoting AJ with "The most serious near disaster QF has ever faced" from the 7:30 report, not pilots on this board. So right from the start, your comments have been designed to hijack this thread, using a management quote. Not sure what you agenda is here, but its not to assist pilots in a pay dispute with management. Do you actually have anything constructive to add to the debate, or are you just here to sh1t stir? I don't see any solutions or suggestions to help pilots, just bile. Prove me wrong.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

There are clearly some management types on this thread trying to upset the apple cart. Have fun with them guys, during the LAME dispute 2 years ago when all was settled Kevin Brown made mention that the first thing he did at the end of each day was to log on to Pprune and see what was happening. I got the feeling he was losing focus from the things that really mattered like 1000's of passengers sitting around terminals costing them squillions as the LAMEs got their point across.

Just another thing to watch out for. I read a fair few comments and suggestions from good pilots about how to handle the press, what actions should be taken and other points about how to run a well prepared dispute that is predominently about job security. Some of the suggestions are well intentioned but fatally flawed because of certain sections of the fair work act. Be safe in the knowledge that your leadership team will make decisions based in legal advice and input from others with experience in such matters. Make sure you are lead by one General into this battle, if you all go seperate ways it will get a little messy.

cheers
Steve

[Jack Ranga]

QF pilots are the only crews who could have recovered this scenario??? That's bollocks.

Did I say that? No, once again we have a prooner who cannot argue a point so then twists what was said (or typed) to suit their own purpose.

What I highlighted was:

The hero of QF32 was the Airbus. Most drivers worldwide would have returned it to terra firma.

And my response:

Ya reckon?


I would quite happily post you a number of airlines who I would have no confidence in the A380 scenario.

Once again, Dale Read The effing Post, comprehend it, and then argue your point.

[TIMA9X]

wYwLeJ3Oz_w


Qantas Pilots still call Australia home. What's wrong with that?
For me, this is the thrust of the issue with QF management. As the issue grows I am sure "Joe public" will pick up and support this simple message, if the media run with it.:hmm:

[Keg]

Great video. Can I encourage people to share that around on Face book, Twitter etc.

(Stupid PPRUNE for editing book face to be FacePPRUNE the first time. It appears that Twotter with an I also becomes PPRUNE. Fair dinkum, what a joke.). :rolleyes: :ugh:

[Capt Kremin]

Great work Tim. Share this around guys.:D

[The Kelpie]

.......and the answer to the question is that Wirthless got the decimal point in the wrong place when she wrote Alan's script.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Captain Dart]

It might be time to resurrect 'The Chaser's' version of the QANTAS advertising anthem, which apparently hit a nerve, part of which went, I think:

'I still call Austraalia (fifty-one-and-a-half-percent) hoome...'

[The Kelpie]

PMSL

I had not seen that before. F***ing Gold!!!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[bucko70]

LISTEN UP. John Laws on radio today Tuesday 15th March after the 10 am news. He is VERY interested to hear about the goings on at QF HQ and QF pilots being squeezed out of the flight deck- so here's your chance!
2SM 1269 Sydney

[Mr. Hat]

Media Links to J Laws.

2SM - Listen Live - Sydney's Talk, News and Entertainment Station with John Laws (http://www.2sm.com.au/listen.html)

[AnQrKa]

Noip,

"No-one is saying QF mainline pilots are any better than any other pilot group from other First level airlines"

and yet your first response to my post was

"Riiiggghhhhttttttt ......."

So if you are not saying that QF pilots are the best then why such a sarcastic response?

[flamingmoe]

[QUOTE]The hero of QF32 was the Airbus. Most drivers worldwide would have returned it to terra firma./QUOTE]

Apparantly "the Airbus" EICAM was sending misleading info, requiring intervention by the crew, at times skipping checklist items that they knew would cause further problems, that "the Airbus" obviously did not.

Credit where it's due!

[Keg]

Anq, let's review your comments:

Comment 1:

Most drivers worldwide would have returned it to terra firma.

Comment 2:



“As a group are they very well skilled? Yes.”

As are all airline pilots.

So far you've made assertions that 'most drivers worldwide' would have gotten QF32 back on the ground; and, 'all airline pilots' are very well skilled. Whilst we can't really test your first assertion with any degree of objectivity (short of simming it with a representative selection of 'most drivers worldwide') we can only go on subjective arguments.

Given how airline pilots world wide continue to find new ways of pranging perfectly serviceable aircraft I'd suggest that your point 2 is somewhat flawed. Indeed I'd argue that the standards amongst first level carriers are quite similar but that's a very different thing to 'all airline pilots'.

[AnQrKa]

"Given how airline pilots world wide continue to find new ways of pranging perfectly serviceable aircraft I'd suggest that your point 2 is somewhat flawed. Indeed I'd argue that the standards amongst first level carriers are quite similar but that's a very different thing to 'all airline pilots'."

Air France, Continental twice, American twice, Fedex, UPS. These airlines have all had accidents in the last 2 years. Are they "first level".

[TIMA9X]

.......and the answer to the question is that Wirthless got the decimal point in the wrong place when she wrote Alan's script.GoAnimate - Jossell and Worthless - Qantas pilot - Watch animation (http://goanimate.com/movie/0Ed8x1s802xA?utm_source=linkshare&uid=0KA9p4VEAfYk)

Some evidence that she may have got the decimal point wrong according to this link above. :)

[Keg]

You're the one trying to make the point Anqrka, you tell me. It appears from your most recent statement that you're agreeing that QF pilots are better than those other 'first level' airlines that because we haven't done had those prangs AND we've managed to recover some situations which could have gone quite differently. Yet previously you decried that all airline pilots around the world are the same. You can't have it both ways. Either QF drivers are as good as other first level carriers, or all airline pilots are the same. Patently the latter comment isn't true. So would you agree that QF drivers are as good or better than other first level carriers?

You're a strange cat- one who it appears likes to slag out QF drivers at every opportunity. Yet you're strangely inconsistent about the point you're trying to make.

[Martin VanNostrum]

"RICHARD WOODWARD: People actually accused me of being in 1989. Qantas pilots never went on strike in 1989. We were flying all through that. It wasn't anything to do with us."

Perhaps if you had helped the domestic pilots in 1989 and hadn't flown domestic passengers in 1989 you wouldn't be in this situation now.

[Capt Kremin]

Martin... they didn't unless it was authorised by the AFAP. Get your facts straight before you post nonsense.

and while we are at it.. get a life!:mad:

[Conscious.pilate]

Oh dear Martin.
Perspective is everything.
The Qantas pilots have survived another 21+ years exactly because they stayed out of Australia's greatest IR disaster.

[Keg]

Perhaps if you had helped the domestic pilots in 1989 and hadn't flown domestic passengers in 1989 you wouldn't be in this situation now.


Lol. A couple of parts to this one. Kremin has already dealt with one of them. The other issue is one of 'help'. Having spoken to a few people who were on the COM at the time, my understanding is that AIPA tried to 'help' AFAP back then. They told AFAP that they had put the gun on their own feet and were about to give themselves both barrels. AIPAs advice to AFAP was ignored.

[Captain Dart]

Not all QANTAS pilots stayed out of the dispute; some were in it momentarily as Australian Airlines pilots...then they deserted their mates and went back to work...(or were invited into the country by the Prime Minister) and then they were accepted as QANTAS pilots :suspect:.

Let's see how the Sky Gods handle the forthcoming stoush; if there is one.

P.S. it might have been an 'IR disaster', however not one of the airlines involved exists today; but I'm still a pilot!