What would you do?

[ct8282]

So, as a youngster I always dreamed of being a pilot. When I was leaving secondary school I just followed my friends onto A-Levels and never really thought much about the pilot dream at this point. I was young, enjoying college life, and hanging around with mates and enjoying life.

Into my second year of A-Levels I decided I wasn't really enjoying the subjects I had chosen and realised that by just following the crowds I wasn't really doing what I wanted. I left college and started on a 4 year apprenticeship working for an industry leading corporate company as a trainee Electronics/Building Services engineer. The course seemed to drag but I got through and then spent the next 4 years as a well regarded engineer within this company.
During this period the itching to be a pilot was growing and growing and I knew I had to do something to try and satisfy the itch. 6 years ago I signed up to the CTC scheme as it was back then and went through the very tough 2 day selection process, stages 2 & 3 as it was then. The first time round I got through to the interview but was put down as a maybe and asked to return 6 months later which I did. Unfortunately this time round my Grandad was dying of Cancer in a Hospice, and so I was not in the best of shapes and failed at the interview stage. I realise now that I just was not ready back then and this obviously showed through in the interview.

Anyway, shortly after this, within 5 weeks, I met a beautiful women who I have been with since who is now my fiancee. I am now a Sales Manager at the same company I was with (been there 12 years now), I earn £45k+ per year, have a sexy M-Sport BMW company car and own my own flat. I assumed that life was just taking it's course and I'd get married, start a family and live out my life. However, the flying itch just does not go away and I am now working towards my PPL, thinking that this might fulfill the ambition and I could get on with life.

Here's the problem. I know that the PPL will not satisfy the itch and that the desire and drive to be a Commercial Pilot just wont go away. I am now 29 years old, far more mature and experienced than I was 6 years ago, and know that I have what it takes to become a Professional pilot. I am already doing my research and considering my options with regards to Pilot training, such as Oxford Aviation, CTC, FTE etc etc.

Here's the conundrum. If I pursue these options and am successful in being selected to any of these training programs I would have to give up my successful career with all trimmings, and as much as my partner is very understanding, I also feel that this would be the end of that too. She is desperate for a big white wedding and kids, something I could not give her for many years if I were to follow my dream. I have become accustomed to the lifestyle I have now, with lots of nice things and luxurys and I would have to give this all up.

So, what would you do? Take the gamble of following the dream, put yourself through months of training with no guarantee of a job at the end, or play it safe and start on a family?

[KAG]

It's already hard for individuals extremely motivated, but for somebody with a sexy BMW, with a fiancee not ready to die for him, with his luxurys, it's just not going to happen.

Start your family. Otherwise I beleive you will lose everything, and when you will find out you won't have enough money to buy new raybans, and the only job available for you is a C210 gig in Africa, you will realize you don't want to be a pilot. At least you don't look like one when I read you. Could be wrong.

[ct8282]

I can assure you I am extremely motivated, and when I set my mind to something I usually succeed eventually. I only start studying for the PPL 3 weeks ago and have nailed 3 exams, Air Law, HP, and Met already. And that's at the same time of balancing a full time job, home life, house work, etc etc. I am very very focused and when I want something I work my ass off and make it happen.

I would imagine that the possibility of jacking it all in to follow the dream is surely enough to prove I am motivated.

I hear what you're saying though. What I would hate more than anything would be to get to the end of my days and regret not taking the gamble and following the dream. Sometimes life is about taking risks. When you look at the most successful people in this world i.e the Steve Jobs, Sir Alan Sugar's etc etc they didn't get to where they are by playing it safe. They both faced bankruptcy and the prospect of 'nothing' but they pushed and pushed and look at them now.

[stevop21]

Instead of looking at FTE, CTC etc... maybe you should consider going modular whilst keeping your job so a) you will have your license and b) you can still keep your job. That way you can make a move into aviation when you are ready and the timing is right etc... and you will not have to leave your current job still getting the paycheck whilst having your licenses ready to make the move.

[Piltdown Man]

Honestly, I'd stay where you are. Yes, flying is a great job, providing you are not at the bottom of the pile. Your potential peer group have pissed (& probably shat) in the pool you have to drink from. In reality, you will need £100,000 or more in cash and maybe, in two years you might land a job flying. But the chance of that is remote. And thanks to the aforementioned, you'll be lucky to get less than half of what your earn at the moment. So thinking of you and your better half, I suggest you stay where you are and go flying for fun. Don't do the boring spam can flying. Instead go racing, do aeros, renovate and fly vintage, fly an autogyro, go gliding (http://vimeo.com/19525187). And I say exactly the same to my kids. Airline flying (at the bottom) is not what it should be and do you know what I can't understand? Why are so many people prepared to risk so much in the way of relationships, money, time and effort for a ridiculous gamble?

Stay where you are. And don't for one minute think that you are "playing it safe." You are just not exposing you partner and yourself to a pointless risk. Be confident in the knowledge you have what it takes but silently snigger to yourself that you are not a prat like those who are just about to give up everything they have, and more, to chase a dream which is unlikely to come true.

PM

[Whirlygig]

Finish your PPL, build hours, fly for fun and learn about ALL aspects of the industry in the meantime. Once you have your PPL, you may feel differently and the job market may be different. No point making a decision now.

Cheers

Whirls

[ct8282]

Some interesting views there peeps, thank you.

Piltdown Man - I see you are a commercial pilot. When did you first land a job as a pilot and could you imagine doing anything else for work??

[KAG]

When you look at the most successful people in this world
The thing is this is not about success.
This is a passion, an idea, maybe the willing to become an aeronautical Nietzsche aboveman (reach an aim, not arrogance).
Watching a propeller should give you the feeling of voyage, watching an airplane would make you want to discover new places.

It's not about success. This activity (not really a career) has been completely spoiled with the stupid flight school pictures/ads. It misleads everybody. If for you a pilot that's rayban, gold epaulets, big hat, big jet, big ego, it's possible you won't make it, or won't enjoy it.
If you dream of Cessna Caravan, of indonesian jungle, oil exploration in Mongolia, then maybe you really want to be a pilot.

We entered in the big jet/big ego and cadet area. Discovering, adventure, passion is still possible, but the image of pilot has changed, and the wannabe aswell.
This incredible activity became a stupid career for the ones who come for the bad reasons, and for the ones who are not passionate enough to go through apprenticeship around the world in real airplanes.

[MIKECR]

I did the late 20's/early 30's career change, it never did me any harm. My now wife(long suffering!:E) is still with me, first child is enroute and im still living within the same 4 walls. I took the modular route rather than the expensive integrated option. It probably cost me less than half of what an integrated course would have cost. I did however take nearly 3 years from finishing my CPL/IR to find a job. The recession didnt help of course but hey ho, I got there in the end. I now have a good job with a decent UK airline. I even have a bonded type rating....a rare thing these days!

[KAG]

What do you see when I say pilot?


A moron in uniform and a jet?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38096000/jpg/_38096347_trav_150.jpg


Or a pilot?
http://www.trektonepal.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/15.jpg

[ct8282]

Not sure what you're trying to get at KAG. You don't know me so please don't presume that you do.

If I wanted to continue living the high life, with plenty of cash, a good job title, a flash car etc etc I would stay where I am. I'm fully aware that pursuing a career as a pilot will most likely bring heartache, frustration, and should I succeed most likely a lower salary than I'm on now for many many years.
I'm in this because I love flying, it's my passion and my 1 and only life long dream. It's not about a uniform, it's about doing what I love, everyday, and earning a living from it.

If I was earning £25k for the rest of my life as a pilot, I would be far happier than I am now earning £45k as a Salesman. Fact.

P.S - That bottom picture is awesome.

[zondaracer]

I think KAG is basically saying that you have to make the decision and what is right for you. If you´re idea of being a pilot is the top picture, you will be disappointed in the long run if you follow this path. If you´re idea of being an aviator is the bottom picture, then full steam ahead.

Notice that I used aviator and pilot distinctly. You pick which one you want to be.

Also, I second hte recommendation of getting your PPL, going modular. Save the money by not going integrated, get your ratings without debt (you´ll thank yourself in the end), give your wife a big white wedding, and if you cant find that pilot job, you can keep working at that sales job if and when your find your break. Life is a journey, not a race, those integrated P2F schemes are the the racers, not for those looking for a journey.

[giggitygiggity]

A moron in uniform and a jet?With all due respect, that is a fairly short sighted view. For some people, the airliner is the dream rather than the Islander, F-22 or even the Spitfire. To some, the technology and gadgetry will be more of a turn on than the adrenaline. I will sit on the fence with regard to my personal preferences, but the ultimate goal many are seeking is indeed the A380 or the 787.

To the OP, a modular course will surely be the best option. Will you have any problems returning to your current career (at a reasonable level) if that becomes necessary in the future?

[BoeingDreamer]

I am a late started, just recently completed all. But when I started I had already been flying 20 years ago, and knew what it was about.

I would say the first step, get your PPL and start building hours, it seems that most people who dream of becoming a pilot discover during this period if they are really passionate for it.

I had full time business, BMW Sport, and a beautiful and understanding wife, newborn baby - and it was manageable, but not easy. Stats from my ATPL school said that there was a high divorce/split up rate in relations during ATPL's studies, and I can confirm it is very hard, trying time and you will have hard times, and ask yourself if it is all really worth it.

(By the way I still have all the above)

You will have to say bye bye to your mates for much of time, and they will wonder if you are a crazy person, and think you are very selfish. This specially during ATPL's and IR training.

I would say Modular is best way to go, first you get all done for half the price, or less, and you can keep your job while training.
From zero to fAtpl, you probably going to budget around £40.000 - £45.000.

But first step, get your PPL, do some flying around getting hours, and then see how you feel about spending another £30.000 - £35.000 on it.

And as some say on these boards, be prepared for no jobs straight away, and if you do get a job it will not be highly paid.
Not easy to decide, but do understand.

[Whirlygig]

Another useful post from captainsuperstorm. :hmm:

ct8282, something you may discover is that all these trappings of luxury are just stuff, things, possessions and they count for squat compared with happiness. You can manage without them.

Cheers

Whirls

[captainsuperstorm]

the truth can hurt! sure if i has my own flight school, I would say go for it, there is (or will be )a pilot shortage all over the world.

whatever we say, guys will throw money at flight schools. get in debt then pay to work! if you can not be happy without a jet job(or a flying job), I am really sad for you!

[ct8282]

Thanks Captainsuperstorm, or should I call you Captainsupertit? Who said that I am not happy? I can't help the fact that flying is my passion, ever since I set foot in a L-1011 Tri-Star cockpit when I was 7 and had my first lessons in a PA28 8 years ago.
You really don't need to be sad for me, but thank you for your concern.

Whirlygig, a very interesting post. There's quite a bit more to my story than I've mentioned in this thread but something I've learned over the last 6 months or so is that all the material things I've been fortunate to own amount to nothing. I got caught up in the material world, earning regular big bonuses and started accumulating expensive luxurys that I just didn't need. In fact, part of my 'new journey' and outlook on life was to sell off some of these items to raise the money for my PPL course instead of using my savings. I can indeed manage without them as you say.

Thanks BoeingDreamer. I know what you mean about saying goodbye to your mates. I'm lucky enough to have some very good friends indeed, and my family are always supportive of my adventures.

Giggitygiggity - I suspect that if things didn't work out I would have a good chance of getting back in to my current commpany, but of course would never count on this as a guaranteed fall back as nothing in this life is a guarantee, eccept for Taxes and Death of course, oh and idiots on forums such as Captainsupertit of course.

[Rico 25]

Dude-you are looking at becoming a commercial pilot in the worst period of aviation bar 9/11 and you still think it's gonna be OK?

I was one of the bush pilots in the Okovango Delta flying C206 s and had a great time but was kicked out the door when the boss started freaking about finances due to a 40% drop in bookings and let a few of us go.If you have money and a good job stay where you are! Even some of the Oxford and CTC graduates are having a hard time getting employed by the big boys. Like someone else said go out and enjoy your flying-get yourself a twin rating, go do aerobatics or else have a go at flying helicopters.

I now have to live with my parents and work at a local factory just to make ends meet-I haven't flown an aircraft for over 2 years now-yes I know sad story!

If I was in your shoes I would stay in your current job and fly in your spare time-if you're still desperate to become a commercial pilot then I would have another look in about 3-4 years and see what the situation is like.

Regards Rico

[BoeingDreamer]

I don't think it is the worst period now, there are companies hiring now.

And to be honest, hate, loathe it, Ryan Air is a good way into the business. Just take it step by step, and try to keep your current job on the way, it will help.

Make sure you have enough more to pay for TypeRating after, but that is getting ahead of yourself. 80% of people who start doing PPL never go on to do the rest.

It is not about your friends by the way being good, you will be the "bad friend" with no time for them, this is the only way you will ever be able to keep your girlfriend, as it will just be time left for her and the flying, not much else for as long as the ATPL's take, for sure!

You will find some good and some stupid advice on these boards, most of all it is up to yourself.
I would still say, if you have no flight experience so far, I would not think further then PPL and hour building, I have heard of guys doing PPL, and some hours after, and never return to flying because they did not enjoy it as much as they thought they would, or they found it damn scary. Try before you buy it all!

[GAZ45]

I’ve spent a long time on this forum as a wannabe commercial airline pilot. I know the route I’m going down, and it’s the modular one. It’s cheaper and you get the same thing at the end of it. There’s lots of arguments for and against modular/integrated, but I’ve done my research, and despite what other people’s opinions may be, I’ve made my decision on what I will do to embark on my dream career. If I was in your shoes I’d make a calculated decision as to when to start your training and how you’re going to fund it and go for it down the modular route!

The one thing I don’t understand about this website though, is the fact it’s so negative. It’s full of people (a handful of which claim to be real world commercial pilots) who will post and re post threads and replies trying to put people like us off a career we want. I’ve given up wasting time on arguing with people like this. It’s easy for someone who became a pilot in the glory days of fully funded sponsorships to look at us with their current lifestyle and slate us for being willing to take a risk on becoming a pilot. The truth is, there’s a need for pilots, and there will be for the foreseeable future, there will always be slumps and booms in recruitment. There will always be new hires and retirements, there will always be lucky and unlucky people. There will always be good and bad jobs within the industry. It’s just life. If we followed most people advice on this forum, there wouldn’t be any pilots (which makes me question some peoples motives for posting sometimes).

I know many people who are current airline pilots, all with different stories. All got hired at different stages of their life after being in different situations. All a mixture of modular and integrated students and all of which are very interesting and motivated people, who don’t have a bad word to say about finally doing the career of their dreams. The fact is, this site, especially this section, is cluttered with out of work or bitter pilots ranting and putting off others who might even consider a career in aviation. The truth is the many pilots who made it and are living out their dreams as a pilot are not wasting time on the wannabes section of pprune. And as for the whole fact of ‘Piltdown Man’ saying you’ll be lucky to earn half of what you’re on now... well yes, maybe for a while, then your potential earnings as a pilot can sky rocket. It’s in the top 10 of most highly paid jobs in the UK for god’s sake.

I’ve got my head guard on and gum shield in ready for being quoted and ‘ripped apart’ by people who can’t stand what I’ve said. Then maybe I’ll change my mind and go and become a cowboy builder earning 50K a year, and to feed my dream of becoming a commercial pilot I’ll buy a glider and thermal my way to the south of France and just play flight simulator for the rest of my life.

[redsnail]

You don't have to quit your job, it is possible to do the lot via the modular way. You keep control of your finances and the pace of your training.
Main thing is that you can time when to do your IR.

Right now? Do the usual and get a medical done, you don't have to go to the CAA, main disqualifiers are diabetes, colour blindness and a strong prescription requirement. (There are other things but your local doctor and optician can tell you what you need to know)
Do some research to see what school suits. Try a trial flight.

One thing to realise is that Ryanair and easyJet are slowing down their expansion. This will have a big impact on jobs in the UK and Europe to a lessor extent. The Middle East and Far East is still hiring but who knows just how many they'll take from the likes of easyJet, Ryanair, Jet2 etc.
There is some bizjet work going but that's for people with a little bit of experience.

It is a gamble. Only you can do your own risk/benefit analysis.
The view is great. :ok:

GAZ - if I may. It's very very easy for me to sit here on my days off and say "yeah, go on, spend tens of thousands of pounds/euros/dollars. It's all good, you'll all get a job". I would be no better than the glossy sales brochures and web adverts you see all over the place. Sometimes, what you may perceive as negativity is in fact reality. Yes, the frivolous posts annoy me too.

Before you dismiss my comments, I am not a sponsored airline captain. I do not have a massive final salary pension to look forward to. I am a self sponsored pilot who is now bizjet captain that had to travel half way around the world to "get lucky". I wish you good luck.

[GAZ45]

Redsnail,

I hope I didn't cause you offense. Your response is the perfect type of response I came to these forums in search of. A non bias look at the industry for us wannabes. I agree I don't want to be fed a load of crap about how many jobs are about, and how I should embark on spending lots of money on this career. But you have responded with an honest, informed opinion and that's what I respect and am looking for. More often than not as I'm sure you appreciate, people paint such an awful picture of the industry, and literally tell people not to bother, that it makes me wonder why they are here and are still pilots.

I hope you understand what I mean, your advice is actualy what I'm trying to embark upon. Doing modular alongside a job!

Cheers

[yardmaster]

GAZ45 - you have hit the nail on the head for me. The negativity on here is so OTT!!!

If a more representive cross section of pilots, like redsnail, were to post in the 'wannabe' forums (but why would most want to?) then there would be a more rounded view of the industry. Plenty of aspiring pilots make it and I intend to be one of them.

It is fiercely tough and competive to get your break as a pilot - just as it is for any "good" career. I'm currently a trader at a hedge fund and have spent most of my career during the financial crisis. I know what a tough industry is.

1000's of aspiring graduates (and experienced traders) couldn't get a job in my firm and plenty were laid off. However the hedgefund industry (after being written off) is recruiting talented people again. It's the same with the airlines.

If you are good enough you will get employed, just like any other industry.

[Piltdown Man]

When a question like "What should I do?" comes up, various answers will be given. If you are considering flying as a career and you are young, rich and single, I'd say go for it. After all, what's money? No one will be hurt if it doesn't work out. And you can always try something else later on. I'd suggest the same to an ex-armed forces pilot. But to an ab-initio who isn't single, who may not have the cash my answer is different. It's a considered approach to risk vs reward. The numbers are not right at the moment to justify risking a relationship, losing a worthwhile job and incurring debt. Frankly I don't care if people disagree with me. But I can see what it's like from the inside, unlike those looking in from the outside through rose tinted glasses. Bitter? Me? No way - flying is a fantastic job. It's the best I've ever had, but I wouldn't enter into it now for the reasons I have explained.

When did you first land a job as a pilot and could you imagine doing anything else for work??

I gave up "work" in 1989. I was a bush pilot in Australia for a year in 1992. I started flying airliners (if you can call a J31 an airliner) in the UK in 1995. Did you notice the three year gap? No professional flying! I'm now trying to imagine doing something else for when I retire. I've got a couple of ideas moving slowly forward. Not one of them is aviation related but that's not because I'm disillusioned with flying. Allow me to rerun my life? I should have stayed where I was prior to 1989 (software industry), learnt to bloody well listen and also to say No! By now I would have retired, have been racing gliders and puling the wings off Pitts S2s for the past few years - But I think that's called hindsight.

However, what I have learnt is that the most valuable thing you have is someone to share your life with.

[The_green_penguin]

.... I only start studying for the PPL 3 weeks ago and have nailed 3 exams, Air Law, HP, and Met already....

I wouldn't go getting smug just yet... They are merely PPL papers. An orangutan could pass those if you gave him the right book. Wait till you try tackling ATPL General Navigation and explaining gyroscopic precession and its effects on aircraft instruments.

[Rj111]

45k is nothing, if there is a market for contracting/consultancy in sales then i recommend you get into that. Contracting allows you the time, flexibility and most of all money, to have a serious crack at the modular route, and if all goes tits up you still have your current industry skills to fall back on.

The problem with this though is similar to what PM said early in the thread.

Who on earth would want to spend 100k to be a F/O (flap operator) just to earn a **** salary. Lets say you earn 30k upon getting a flying job. It's going to take you about 4 years to pay off that 100k you spent! That's 6 years of not earning anything.

Alternatively, you could get your PPL, maybe an IMC, buy a share or even your own Cessna and have a really great time flying.

[ct8282]

Thanks Green Penguin. It's good to know that my intellect is on par with that of an Orangutan. I think I'll steer clear of going any further with this flying lark as I'll never be able to cope with the ATPL tests that's for sure.
I thought my Degree in Electronics was a challenge but by the sounds of it the ATPL theory will be too much for me. Thanks for the advance warning.

[The_green_penguin]

Glad to have given you the heads up....

[ct8282]

Lol. Cheers buddy :ok:

[Mikeair]

Ct,
I found your post (and subsequent ones) very interesting. I too dreamed of the pilot career from a young age but lost focus when in college - couldnt make my mind up about uni then got a career for a blue chip chemical company straight out of college - got used to the money & splashing out on bull**** fancy cars etc.

12 yrs on and im still earning a good wage but have come to realise that im bored and want to be happy - Working under the Liverpool airport flightpath means I can never forget about my 'itch'!

Got my PPL a few years ago and am just taking my time now to build hours - also swotting up on maths/physics in my spare time (need to build confidence in this) and looking over some ATPL DVDs/books to familiarise.

pretty much a slow burner I guess but dont care If i dont end up in an airliner - just being an FI would do me - dont care if Im earning a pittance just want to be flying.

Think it can get quite negative in here sometimes but youve just got to stick with it and do things as/when your ready - there's no denying youve got the itch and theres only one way to sort it out. Even if you give it a go and fail at least youve tried.

If I give it a shot and end up back where I started Ill just be grateful that I can get up at weekends as an amateur!

Good luck and let us know how you get on

[poledancer]

Guys go for your dreams, make them a reality, do not listen to anyone trying to put you off. The point of airlines such as Easyjet and Ryanair slowing their recruitment down yes maybe slightly true, but let's also look at their massive high turnover of pilots, who get their experience get their hours up maybe get their command and move on to the Middle East Emirates etc, more than half do. Their will always be some demand for pilots there. Second thing, the comment about biz jets, Corporate Aviation is not just for in experienced or
low hour pilots. Some of the finest pilots i have ever met are in corporate. fact. I have worked in both sides of aviation, and for those thinking modular good for you.

[Omlaaay]

You only live once.

That's all I'm going to say.
The decision is up to you at the end of the day.
And if whatever you pick, turns out how you wanted it to, then great! :ok:
If it doesn't, then that's not so great, but at least you tried. Just dust yourself off and move on.
Better to try and fail than to kick yourself for not trying, and wondering 'What if?'. :ugh:

Myself, I am a young aspiring pilot still in full time education, my parents aren't really too keen on me going into the Aviation Industry, with the price of training and risks. I know exactly what they mean, it's a big risk and I understand what they're saying. But like I said, only live once. So hell! I'm going to go for it. And so should you, if it's what you really want. :)

Good luck! :ok:

[Poeli]

I'm a bit in the reverse situation as you (still in university though). I always wanted to become a pilot but lately i've been thinking about keeping it as hobby (maybe even enjoy it more) get a great degree and a well paid job so I maybe can buy an airplane with some mates...
Personally I wouldn't give up what you have now-if I'd do it if I was in your position I would go modular. Yes you only live once. And if it goes wrong then dusting yourself off with 80k€ of debts isn't that easy in my opinion.

[Desert Strip Basher]

A lot of fair points here. I would say getting into the profession is tough, but I can't agree that it's competitive and that's the problem. To my mind most of the issue of getting a job is connections (networking) and being in the right place at the right time (timing). Many people have the aptitude to get through to fATPL and the best pilot isn't necessarily getting the job. Hence people can buy their way in-the selection process has been blown apart by Ryanair et al.

To understand the financial difference between modular and integrated look at it this way. Say integrated takes 18 months - cost £85k (including living costs). Modular I'd say is reasonable to complete in 2 yrs around the demands of a professional job. Lets say you can save £700/month over the period and all living costs are already accounted for. Cost of modular training (~£40k) less savings (24x700=£16800) is £23200! You will be £62k better off than an integrated bod, plus you'll have a well paid job during the search for an aircrew position while the integrated bods start stacking shelves. Beyond that the integrated bod probably has to add interest payments assuming a loan is taken out and then because of their rushing and further fanning the flames by paying for Type Ratings etc they've effectively dug their own grave. Final point is the modular aspirant also has a fallback career in case of illness/loss of license. Integrated training at present has to be blind stupidity. If people stopped trying to fast track their way into an airliner (thinking they'll be happy doing that for 40 odd years?!), and played the long game by starting off flying because they love it rather than because they want to get in a 737 asap then some sense might return to the industry. Rant over.