ec-120 or r44?

[eeeaddict]

For a private operator doing something like 100-150 hours a year what would be a better choice? Flying would be on a "just for fun basis", I hear eurocopter takes AGES for repairs but that would be fine in this case. How much would insurance be in a ec120 because I couldn't find it listed anywhere.
Thanks pprune'ers! :)

[krypton_john]

That's kinda like asking "Ford escort or Audi RS6?" :-)

[PotentialPilot]

You could pop a PM to John R81 or wait for him.

[FLY 7]

There are other options - B206, EN480B, H500, Gazelle....

Insurance is normally % of the insured hull value, with a factor for the pilot(s) experience, intended use, estimated hours, etc - c.6% would be typical, I suppose

[HillerBee]

Insurance on a Turbine is usually lower than for a piston. When we went from R44 to EC120 the insurance was only twice the R44! The price of the EC120 was 4 times that of a R44.

For the rest you just can't compare the two machines.

[puntosaurus]

The sort of questions you need to be asking if you really want to decide on the merits of the two machines is do I need five seats ? Do I need baggage space ? Can I afford the price difference ?

However, anyone thinking of actually buying a helicopter has already crossed a line where it's not really about the helicopter any more.

Of course you can compare the two machines.

[eeeaddict]

H500 I love the look but no baggage compartment, and bad legroom at backseat, bell 206 ugly, and they stopped production so parts will soon be more expensive, enstrom might go bust any time so kinda wana stay away. Does anyone know the doc of the ec-120?

[206 jock]

bell 206 ugly

And the R44 is a looker? Boy, you need to go to Specsavers.

Ah, the perspective of youth.

http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/454/dbe/454dbe4b-6a87-4e0d-8c0d-5ff7b6ca9569

[eeeaddict]

lol im not a troll, just saying that r44 is a lot cheper than a jetranger (to buy and run) so I can take the hit in the looks department, the is an amazing machine though

[Never in Balance]

I'm with 206 Jock. How could you possibly call the 206 ugly????

[bolkow]

indeed, I have never seen an ugly 206, I coauld watch them all day, and I am not known for gazing fondly at ugly specimens of any kind.

[eeeaddict]

lol it's a relative thing, a 206 is kinda ugly compared to a eurocopter, also I don't really like 60's styling (call me crazy)

[krypton_john]

Which EC?

IMHO the B206 is not ugly but less pretty than an EC120/130/135, just as pretty as an AS350 and prettier than an EC145.

Also much prettier than any Robbo or MD.

NZ$0.02 worth anyway.

[Bell_Flyer]

eeeadict - can't say I agree with you about the Bell 206 being ugly. Look what I found on another thread.

http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu102/Doctor_Spock/Girl206.jpg

Final conclusive evidence of the beauty of the 206's.

[HillerBee]

Definitily NOT ugly :D

[krypton_john]

That Bell needs urgent inspection regarding partially deployed air bags.

[vaibronco]

With the same budget of the EC120, I would take into consideration an older model of 350.
Maybe not so good looking, for sure a better performer.
I met an owner personally, a private non expert pilot.
He got scared few times.
Extra power means safety, especially if you're planning your trips with some passengers and you're not used to manage low power approaches and take-offs.

[ecureilx]

And look what I found when looking for a R44 :p :p


http://www.angelesbeachclubhotel.com/fade_img/helicopter/heli1.jpg

PS: hope the owner doesn't claim copyright issues .. :)

[toptobottom]

krypton_john's right - there is no comparison! They're like chalk and cheese :confused:
A 5 seat modern turbine with glass cockpit, compared with a 4 seat piston designed in the 80's?!

One looks gorgeous, the other is butt ugly.
One sounds like a helicopter, the other sounds like a tractor.

You pays your money, you takes your choice - the R44 is great at what it was designed to do and for the market it was aimed at, but is a class apart from any EC machine.

[206 jock]

Sorry ecureilx, that looks like that R44 is suffering from BOBFOC to me (Body Off Baywatch, Face Off Crimewatch).

To the OP, when you get to some sort of resolution to your strange dilemma, why not add the R66 to your fantasy list? It's like a light turbine and an R44 got married and they had a baby together:p

[toptobottom]

206_jock

The R66... hmmmm... sounds like a helicopter, goes like a helicopter, looks like a tractor :}

And BTW, the 206 is a great looking machine - a classic. Nowt wrong with 60's design if it works - just like the Gazelle :ok:

[Flyting]

Why not just rent.... For the little flying you're going to do you could chose which machine you'd like to fly according to what you want to do?

[John R81]

If you are seriously looking at just these 2 then you are where I got to 3 years back. I looked at most of the other options - Jet box (maintenance issues for anything I could afford); A109 (fantastic price - high maintenance) and Hughes (sporty little thing, but uncomforable and claustraphobic - particularly for any rear seat passengers). Others may disagree with these comments, but that was my conclusion.

I reasoned the higher purchase cost (using interest cost as a proxy) was balanced out by cheaper service costs and retained value of the airframe. So far has proved right. Other benefits - cheaper insurance - I did not foresee when choosing.

Plan on 100kg (not litres) per hour fuel burn but if flying 110kt / 4-up then I actually achieve better than that (the book is 120kg/hr at MCP - never have I burned fuel at that rate!).

So in addition to costing me less to own I have a 5 seat turbine with smooth ride, great views and it is comfortable for 4 hr flight from Redhill to Scottish Highlands, 4POB and luggage.

Happy to share service data if you PM me. The modern design means less breakages and when they do occur the workshop hours to do anything are low.

EC120 has its limits - Hughes 500 certainly has more excess power at MTOW, for example, - but fly within them and she is no trouble. Only negative I have heard but not personally experienced is lead time for parts from Eurocopter.

[Hughes500]

Slap a luggage pod under a 500, theres your baggage. They are the only small turbine that really will do a vertical at max all up weight with power to spare. EC 120 certainly doesnt. Also have a cruise speed of 130 kts ( some will go faster) uses 110 litres an hour. Therefore your extra speed means less fuel less component times and therefore cheaper to run ! Just compare R44 fuel burn with the £ 1.80 a litre cost v .60p per litre for jet. Thats £ 120 ish for the R44 for 110nm v £ 65 for 130nm in the 500 Plus 500 will hold its money, have owned 7 of them have sold each one for more than I paid for it, try that with a 120 !
There is absolutely no comparision as to which is the most fun to fly !

[krypton_john]

Hughsey, how many kt do you lose with the pod?

To me the 500 has it hands down in most regards, but there's no escaping - that back seat is a claustrophobic torture chamber. Just as well it's a fast trip.

Hmmm... here we go:
Oceania-Aviation | Home (http://www.oceania-aviation.com/Home.aspx?AircraftId=40)

[thechopper]

Would you buy a Porsche to sit in the backseat?:suspect:

[krypton_john]

Heh, I know what you mean. But these purchases need to be justified and it is easier to do so when they are more practical.

[Tarman]

There is no comparison in the looks dept.(R44 is pot ugly)
The baggage hold / quality of interior etc in the 120 is in a different class.

But . . . . I have never come close to running out of pedal in a 44.
I almost put my right foot through the perspex in a 120 trying to transition to the hover. (and we weren't that heavy)

In my, limited, experience the 120 is underpowered, not for a low time pilot.


Tarman

[claudia]

john r81- some negatives for ec120 are fcu inspection at 10 years 27500 euros- gearbox inspections at 10 years and airframe inspections at 12 years very costly then turbomecca engine inspection at 15years simply horrendous-a 500 or 206 or 480 does not have any of these horrors

[krypton_john]

206 has TT strap horrors every two years.

[claudia]

krypton john. agreed a real pain with the 206 but petty cash compared to the bills eurocopter and turbomeca will produce for those inspections.

[John R81]

And in the meantime... [edited to add: all relates to EC120 - SP thought it wasn't clear]

(All actual bills for my EC120)

A 6 month inspection for £243 (including parts)
A 50-hr for £715 (including parts)
A 50-hr for £ 275 (including parts)
A 100hr (plus some additional work re igniter cable replaced, oil cooler replaced due to stripped thread, aircraft re-weighed, replacement skid shoes and some corrosion treatment) £3,860

Yes she has some expensive episodes which you mention; but you paint only one side of the picture. Save up during the 10 years because the intervening service cost is nothing compared to an R44.

I am interested (never having owned a Hughes 500) - is this comparable to your service cost? I know it is substantially cheaper than a 206 or an A109 or an R44 because I did the research. I didn't bother with the 500 because although it is a nippy fun ship, I want to take passengers incomfort so it wasn't for me.

In truth, we all love the ships we fly and want to defend them. I don't say "you were wrong" choosing a 500 - if that's what you want then it is the best ship in the world for you. Don't "rag-off" on the 120 because it isn't a 500. It is something else, and it is fantastic at being what it is.

Work out what your needs are, match a ship to that and you will be happy forever.

[claudia]

yes, r44 makes no sense at all when you consider the depreciation factor over the 12 year life. ec120 is without doubt the vastly superior machine as you have outlined. just a pity that some day turbomeca will spoil the party-£££

[CRAN]

Claudia,

How much is the Turbomeca 15yr inspection?

CRAN

[John R81]

Claudia -

These "big bills" are an issue if you don't know they are comming and you don't factor them in (saving for them). The overall cost of running an EC120 we appear to agree is lower than a 44. So as the 500 doesn't have these big bills, what are the general running costs like? If you pay 5k for a 50 hr then it might be more expensive overall than an EC120.

Can you (or any 500 owner) post comparative bill details for 50 / 100 / 6 month for the 500? It is the only way we will all know.

[victor papa]

John R81, I would also like to see the figures. Yes the 120 like all EC models have the 12 yr or on some 9 yr but man you do very little up to that point. The 500hr/2yr is the big inspection but I was told by someone recently that the 500hr/2yr on his 120 cost him less than the 300hr on his R22 so yes? The 120 is not maintenance intensive and yes she desrves to at 12 year get a good airframe and flight control check and as for Turbomeca, if you look after your Arrius it will look after you with very little maintenance up until the 3000hr??? I think overhaul or the 15yr inspection. You do have 15yrs/3000hrs to save for it don't you? Don't look at just that, look at the overall period and the 120 is great! Also, she does have a big baggage compartment, take 5 people and quite a lot of fuel-just remember she is below 2 ton class and she was not designed to take all at once just because she can! She is the baby model-1 thing at a time! You will love her if you get to know her and that fenestron is sweet if you learn and understand it and fly accordingly-no rocket science!

[Hughes500]

For a 500 looking back at mine

50 hour £ 650
100 hour £ 1200
annual £ 7500

All the above is assuming no component changes and normal ags plus some normal wear and tear parts ( based on 300 hours on a 30 year old machine)
Worst ever annual was £ 18k but that included turbine change and fitting of a filter barrier system plus £ 4000 of rectification work

[claudia]

I paid €242,347 plus vat in 2002 for an arriel calendar inspection -a friend paid €360,000 in 2009. Both engines 1700 hours from new and running perfectly. Starter generator and fcu was not included. I have no reason to believe that an arrius would be much less if indeed less at all. Can anyone with first hand recent experience with an arrius inspection comment. ?

[wes120b]

I've been flying an EC 120 for 5 years. I even took my check ride for my private pilot in it at 75 hrs. It's not a hard heli to fly. Aside from the high cost of the 500hr and upcoming 12 year we have, the ec120 is a fabulous helicopter. Keep in mind I've only flown 1 hour in a bell47 5 hrs in a 206, 3 hrs in a 350b Astar, and 55 hrs in a 1968 369a Hughes 500. Never been in a twin. yes, it is underpowered with full fuel and 3 people, but it is a solid machine and I highly recommend them. Message me if anyone wants more info. I fly it and am heavily involved in the maintenance.

[ryanboxer]

R44 ten times cheaper, EC120 ten times more comfortable both pretty reliable

[Hughes500]

Claudia
That hurts !
Allison engine
hmi at 1750 hours £ 25k
3500 inspection £ 20k
4500 hours £ 30k
Compressor at 3500 £ 25k
FCU £ 7500 at 2500 hours

[Dennis at Enstrom]

"H500 I love the look but no baggage compartment, and bad legroom at backseat, bell 206 ugly, and they stopped production so parts will soon be more expensive, enstrom might go bust any time so kinda wana stay away. Does anyone know the doc of the ec-120?

I won't comment on the helicopters (I'm sure PPrune would rather I just buy an ad), but as an Enstrom employee I feel compelled to comment on that statement.

Enstrom has been in business for 51 years. We've produced over 1100 helicopters sold in over 50 countries around the world. Aircraft are currently in production, and we have a healthy orderbook. We recently beat out all the other major OEM's for two large military training contracts in Asia. We are adding employees, and increasing production rates. The CAAC is here finishing up Type Certification of the 480B in China, we just certified a new ag-spray system, PDS, seating configuration, etc.... I could go on, but you get the point.

Nothing in life is ever certain, but I would say the odds of Enstrom going bust aren't any better or worse than any other major OEM going under. I have a feeling we are all going to be around quite a while.

Fly Safe!

Dennis Martin
International Sales/Program Manager
Enstrom Helicopter Corporation

[griffothefog]

Dennis,

Please do us all a favour and revamp your website, its out of the ark...:{

Personally I like the brand, but your advertising leaves a lot to be desired :ugh:

Good luck...