Now Lion Air wants to make money out of jobless pilots from India

[vdaff]

Just found this on face..book!

LionAIr Indian pilot programme 2011


What is the required experience to apply to the program?
Valid C.P.L
Multi engine instrument rating
F.R.T.O.L
R.T.R
Current Class one medical
Passport with minimum one year validity.
Willing to relocate outside India.

What is the maximum age for applicants?
First Officer 35 years old

After Type Rating which company I would be employed for?
Lion Air. Asia’s fastest growing Airlines. It has highest number of Boeing 737-900ER in world.

Will Lion Air guarantee a job?
Pilot passing the Lion Standard, are assured to be hired.

What are Lion Air standards?
Lion Air Standard mentioned is passing Simulator check and Passing Class 1 medical upon reaching Jakarta, Indonesia.

Once selected from when can I expect salary?
After being evaluated by company check airman on simulator and passing Class 1 Medicals in Indonesia , Crew member would be paid a Monthly Salary.

What salary can I expect after getting successfully evaluated?
After getting evaluated successfully you would be entitled with a monthly salary of 2000; Two Thousand U.S Dollars

What kind of contract do I get (permanent/temporary)?
First employment contract for 36 months. Thereafter, the contract will be renewed on mutual agreement.

How can I obtain an Indonesian work permit? How long it takes?
The Company, Lion Air will act as sponsor for your employment and residence in Indonesia including spouse and children. Usually it takes 2-3 weeks during which you would be completing your necessary ground training

Accommodation
Company will provide accommodation, either at base Jakarta or at outstation

Transportation
Company will provide transportation for Flight Duties; Simulator and all other ground training.

Uniforms
Company will provide crew uniform

Travel
Air transportation on Lion Air network at the beginning and end of contract. Closest to India would be Singapore to Jakarta. In this case crew member is responsible of arranging Visa to Singapore.

Will I get a chance to upgrade as captain?
Opportunity to upgrade as a captain would be given upon meeting company requirements and standards.

What all routes will I be flying as pilot in Lion Air?
You would get a chance to fly all over Indonesia. Also international flights into some of the world’s busiest airports like Singapore and Vietnam giving lifetime exposure

Personal travel
Company will provide 2 (Two) FOC ticket per year to each crew member valid for Lion flights

What is notice period for Resignation?
Resignation on 180 days notice

What bases are available? Will I get my preferred base?
Currently in Jakarta; Indonesia only.

How does the roster look like?
Bi-weekly basis, follow CASR (Civil Aviation Safety Regulation)

Number of flying hours per month/year?
Average 100 hrs per month, max 1050 hrs/year

How many annual leaves will I get?
28 Annual leaves. You will be entitled for 14 days after 180 days of completion of service.

How many paid sick leaves I would get?
5 sick leaves per year.

What is the course price and duration?

The B737NG type rating course is mainly delivered at TRTO designated by Lion Air. It will be 4 weeks course. Cost of the program is INR 25, 00,000 (TWENTY FIVE LACS).Training price includes accommodation and return tickets for type rating and simulator assessment with Airline.

What is the penalty of early termination of contract?
Any termination at the initiative or caused by the behavior of the pilot will lead to a penalty of 100,000 USD.

To whom I would be giving my course fees? Who will take care of all documentation?
Interested pilot would have to deposit course fee to MSD Aviation in the following phases :-
1. 5 Lacs on being selected for the course in order to sign the contract
2. 10 Lacs before going for type rating course
3. 10 lacs after getting endorsement on License.



We pay 30 lacs for our pilot training then 25 lacs more for this Lion air type rating just to earn 80k per month. The lucky ones in India are earning over 2 lacs for the same airplane and got the job with only a CPL.....:ugh:

[jackcarls0n]

Not sure if this is authentic information or not. Couldn't find any information on the internet about it. Seems quite a fishy contract if it is the case. But still a lotta people would go for it i guess.

Mathematically, money wise it is worthless.

[PPRuNe Towers]

A sleazeball has already had two attempts at placing this ad booted off the site for slavery reasons.

6 months notice? $100,000 usd 'fine' for baling out?

The desperate and naive will get exactly what they deserve.

Rob

[sfa_trainee]

Anyone who enrolls ...deserves to go through thru the consequences..:ok:

[capt.xyz]

seems like a big fraud is going to happen , no info on internet or Lion Air website , also Lion air was inducting earlier with CAE or Eaglejet and now this crap...looks like they need despo pilots who wanna spend anything to buy a job!!!

[vdaff]

I saw this from a face..book fan page of msd aviation
here is their website MSD Aviation is India’s first organization in leasing flight crew internationally. (http://www.msdaviation.com)

For your information there are few guys who are currently in lionair through this programme. Really feel sorry for them:mad:

[DragonFly-ing]

ah,the good old MSD Aviation... := that's a no no i think.
Certainly when i heared that this Kush Bhasin who workes as F.O. in Lion is a contact person in all this for Lion/MSD... I bet he is getting some Lacs from all this. how disgusting... his own colleagues are disgusted of him being affiliated with this. But that's how the cooky crumbles. He is even putting promotion for it on his own Face...book page. :mad: . Ah well. if you are stupid to fall for this, then indeed it's what they deserve..... :ugh:

[jetjockey696]

This sounds very fishy.... be careful guys. I know Lionair is hiring from CAE and Eaglejet only.. NO ONE else.

I think this facebook advertisement is false. I think someone is taking advantage of pilots who are desperate for jobs. Desperate people are prime targets for conmen.

I expect the mention PERSON (KB) is trying to get some money out of this. I expect he friendly with management and trying his charms to bring in pilots to earn some cash..too much cocky is not good in aviation.. i like to know what he has done to be hated so much by his friends....

Guys Pls.. dont be used by cra*(y agencies. I have been a desperate pilot too.. for many years..I learnt there are many cra*&y agencies, all looking to line there pockets with your money.... try Eaglejet or CAE aleast.. they have a proven contract with lionair. But at the end of the day, all agencies are there to make a profit...it business.

Good hunting...

[poker_pilot]

Is This Only For Indian Nationals????????????????????

[capt.xyz]

its only for money holders....try contacting them , i m sure they wont say NO.

[DragonFly-ing]

I am afraiid it's quite real....
the website works and has a quoute PDF as mentioned above in the first post.
and his face...book is up and spamming on every Indian newspage as well.
:oh: painfull as it is... he put it on the 'jobless indian pilot association'...
Hurts to see this. He will get his duty paid one day i think.:ok:

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/627/kushmsdaviation.th.jpg (http://img29.imageshack.us/i/kushmsdaviation.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

wow....

[vdaff]

I actually took this from the "unemployed Indian pilots" page on face..book. That person who posted this is a FO with LionAir.

pls people dont belive this, if you really want to waste your daddy's money to work for lion air at least go with CAE or eaglejet.

[tekchandv]

the title of this thread shouldn't be Lion Air trying to make money.. :)

[tekchandv]

I had registered on CAE, but the never seem to reply! the CAE website status just says that you have already applied for this if you no longer want your application to be considered to click here..

[niksmathew24]

Hey guys,

I gave a call on that number on their website. Its only for Indian nationals and they claim that they're the only one's allowed to do the recruitment for Indians. CAE does it only for EU nationals and not for Indians. The Indian biz is looked after by a pilot from 9W who claims to have lots of hours on the 737. As far as the job guarantee is concerned, there is a job confirmation and you sign the contract with Lion Air for 3 yrs. But the million dollar question is, do you want to prostitute yourself for this? 25L for a mere 2000$/month with an increment of 300$ every year?? :ugh:

Paying for your TR/SSTR is the standard set in the Indian industry now a days. But you must ensure that you get a decent salary with it. If not, please don't degrade the standards for others who are also in this industry and for the many to come.

Nick

[DragonFly-ing]

Niksmathew24 :
CAE does it only for EU nationals and not for Indians. The Indian biz is looked after by a pilot from 9W who claims to have lots of hours on the 737. As far as the job guarantee is concerned, there is a job confirmation and you sign the contract with Lion Air for 3 yrs.

As I believe, this Kush B (name stated above) did arrive in Lion with a P2F scheme himself. I believe it's CAE since they live in the housing provided for CAE guys. Here in Indonesia there is already some wild stories about this chap. Even in the flag carrier GA there is talk about this guy. I just hope nobody let's himself get ripped off, since rumors are he is the contact person in all this and the company set up in Delhi is actually his old hometown. :rolleyes:

I hope he is doing a good deal for himself, as maybe his flying career will end if someone kicks his ass too hard if they find out he is ripping off his fellow Indian friends who seek a job.

disgusting to see the package like this. i mean : '6 months notice for terminating the contract'? Then you can never apply for a job in between, because of you tell the new company 'sorry, i am applying now, but you need to wait 6 months until I come available' ... and that's only after the 3 years you must spend in Lion... who has a pretty disputable management themselfs.

Good luck......:=

[b.777-200]

I called up on the numbers given on website the guy over there is siddharth kasana he is the owner of the company he told me that everything is fair as we are the only agents in india to provide pilots to lion air !! he told me he had posted the link of the contract on the website. and abt kb what i heard is he is abt to join flag carrier GA

[DragonFly-ing]

edit/posted 2 times

[DragonFly-ing]

It's all up to the Indian CPL holders to decide if they want to sell out there souls to this Kush Bhasin , siddharth kasana and MSD Aviation...

Everybody in Indonesia knows about the lucky 4 that wanted to go from Lion to GA (Garuda) last november 2010.

The chief pilot 739ER (Andi 'the crook' Mufty) was even so sick to stop this exodus from expats that wanted to leave Lion in a new and aggressive way. He found out that the selections/screenings for Garuda were in Singapore, so the Lion chief pilot went to Singapore (of course fully paid by Lion Air) and rented a NG Sim in the oxford aviation building, the same building as where the Garuda screenings that day were held. There he waited and 'caught' some guys from Lion that wanted to do selections. Back in Indonesia they were forced into sky rocketing fines or they got the choice to get fired (lawsuit, fines the whole hoebla was released on those guys if they decided not to cooperate). This was mostly a scare tactic from this 'not so 100% healthy' mind. Before most expat contracts stated a 10.000 USD fine if you left before the contract. Most people that went to garuda happily paid to Lion... because Garuda gives you good hotels and provides double the paycheck on the end of the month (around 6000 USD a month for F.O.) .

Then Lion, short of pilots since everybody that enters the company wants to leave, except for some :} heads, went back a step and offered some guys to stay in the company with NO fine if they kept it quiet or if they wanted to go they must pay (i heared this from other eagle guys here, so 99% sure) 28.000 USD + 10.000 USD that was stated in the contract. Totalled up to 38.000USD. after some time it went down to, i believe 28.000 USD.... and then some guys decided they dont have that money and stayed in Lion and some guys paid the freaking 28.000USD raised there middle finger (i hope) to Andi Mufty and left to Garuda.
This is how it goes in Indonesia. :D

So I don't know what kind of deal this Kush Bhasin has with Lion, but if he is leaving to Garuda soon, as you heared from MSD/his colleague siddharth... maybe he made a deal with Ertata (stated in the PDF contract between MSD aviation and Lion as signer from Lion side) and Mufty from Lion that he can leave himself if he tricks at least 3 indian cpl holders in joining Lion for 3 years and with a 100.000 USD bond with 6 month notice.

Furthermore, as pprune towers stated above, slavery in this kind must not happen, but will because of the many rich (parents) Indian cpl holders who are dying to sit and die, oeps i mean fly, in the right seat. :ok:

also there is some interesting stories about Lion in :
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/320496-eagle-jet-international-fist-officer-training-11.html
page 11 and 12 from PKLUCKY888 . this will also give some light shed on the management and things going on in Lion Air.

The last months there has been multiple rwy excursions from lion in Pekanbaru (in february). 2 in a row. And some high speed RTO's and a tailstrike last december. But all these quietly kept out of the news of course. Some L1 and R1 windows on 900ER's have ASH debris on it because lion like to fly through ash clouds and get good money from tickets if other airlines decide to cancel a flight due to ash clouds and volcanoes. I don't know if Boeing or the authorities like this but that's up to them to screen Lion.

To get back to this MSD Aviation... good luck for anyone who wants to sign this deal with their blood..... :sad:

[Boeing7xx]

Kasana? there was a Siddharth Kasana in Spicejet who recorded Capt. Banerjee smoking in the flight deck and released it to the news channels, he got knocked out of SG & joined IndiGo. If this is the same guy. Stay away. Very far away. He has issues which need medical assistance.

[flyforwings]

Hi everyone...

i called on that number (given on the website) and went to meet the guy over there..its right, the guy over there is Siddharth Kasana.He claims to have hours on 737 aircraft.

After reading all the posts and the conversation with him,i think that this prog. is not fake.I read the contract which we would be signing.It would be on stamp paper of 100rs.

Its true that we are spending 25 L and getting only 2000USD a month.I really appreciate what dragon fly has told us about lion air.I think he is working for the same company or have worked..The stories he is telling is what no one out side of lion air can know and these stories were not found anywhere on the internet..

What my concern is that if we spend 25L do we get what we are told for.I don't care what Kush Bhaisn or Mr. Kasana is getting out of the whole deal..
Today i know so many of us will be ready to pay 30-35 lacs for jet airways as we are sure we will get what we are paying for.

MSD guy also gave me an option of getting type rating on my own..He said but you need to do base and fam flight on your own..in that case he claimed he will send me without charging me anything..

I have been applying to CAE and Eagle jet from a long time..CAE : i never got any reply...Eagle jet ask too much money and gives no salary/appt too..

I searched website of lion air in and out and never found any thing about CAE/Eaglejet/Msd on their website.I dont know if they really post pilot hiring agencies on thier TICKET SELLING website...

I will be going to their mahipalpur office by Tuesday again..I need to study the contract with someone who has legal knowldge..

Lets try to get some useful info about msd aviation rather than info about kb or ks...

Any idea when is jet result coming out?????????

did anyone apply for spicjet??any response back on exam dates???

[vdaff]

But dude I rather Pay Jet Airways 30 lacs and get a high salary and stay in india than paying 25 lac to this guy and getting only 2000 dollars per month and also 3 years bond with 6 months notice and a fine of 100 000 dollars if you want to get out :eek:

I dont know what you saying is real or not but this one sh....t contract and its clearly sucking out money and life of the poor jobless pilots like me....

[b.777-200]

by reading and thinking you cant decide that whether this program is fake or not, u have to check the background of the company. I never heard abt this msd aviation. The direcors of the company must have some solid background. Even i m very much desperate to get a job anyhow but i dnt want to get cheated. we should enquire about the company.
Lets try to get some useful info about msd aviation rather than info about kb or ks

what i can judge is KB and KS they both are partner in this company so we need to get information abt these guys because KB is just FO in Lion Air nothing else and that to on P2F scheme as dragonfly stated. This gut KB is consistently adverstising abt MSD may he is getting something out of it. I think this scheme is fake.

[capt.xyz]

Getting a stamp paper of RS.100 and its endorsement costs Rs.120/- only...its the easiest thing to do , go to a stamp vendor , he will issue you a stamp without even seeing ur I-CARD , you cant decide its genuine or fake on stamp paper thing , this MSD is very new company and Mr. Kasana has swapped lot of companies in his carrier as on his facebook account , y?


Jet Airways
Co-Pilot · July 2010 to present

Arik Air
Co-Pilot · March 2008 to July 2010

Indigo
Co-Pilot · January 2008 to March 2008

SpiceJet
Co-Pilot · July 2006 to January 2008

Y???? and the big thing is no one in jet airways know him as a pilot....there are many jet pilots whom I inquired..none knows him.

My suggestion.... Be aware!!!
its your hard earned money , if it was CAE or Eaglejet , we know that these are renowned companies and they have lot of ppl placed in different airlines in different parts of world...MSD ..new chaps...found a gud way to earn money..!! Y wud a company will give his HR contract to a newbee co-pilot who merely has 1000 TT....LOL

[b.737.ng]

On Friday I went to MSD Aviation office in Mahipalpur...Their office is on second floor on NH-08 where there are many hotels..

I asked them to give me details on what basis they are charging us 25L for this course..:ok:

The guy Kasana told me that this prog will give TR 737NG...Rating endorsement on our license..base training..and Indonesian License..

He said to get base training i.e touch and go a 737 Aircraft ,they need to arrange a 737NG aircraft for a max of 2 trainee pilots with an instructor at one time...He said for this flight the insurance of Aircraft and pilots is very high as its a trainee flight..he also added that this fam flight and touch and go flight would be of 1 hour duration..:rolleyes:

He explained the process of getting Indonesian license..We would have to fly some 15 hours with instructors in Indonesia on a SE aircraft for which MSD is paying..This was written in contract that MSD is paying for all this..:DHe said that lion air used to give validation to expat pilots which is valid for max of 2 years...But as this contract is for 3 years so we need to have Indonesian license...:*

In the contract its written that if after singing the contract and we are not given a job...MSD is liable to pay us salaries for next 36 months...which gives a relief that something is good..:D

Kasana said that Kush has already resigned from lion air and is already serving his notice period..He joined some airlines in India...:bored:

As b.777.200 said..its very important to know about the background of the directors...What we would be spending is something very big...we just cant give 25L to anyone like this...

I emailed CAE...I got a response from a someone named Gomez.She said right now they are only hiring EU nationals for Lion Air prog.For Indian they only have IndiGo prog..

I would suggest to meet these guys of MSD and see the contract..I think most of us over here havnt seen the contract and we are just saying on what we know about the two guys..

I agree with flyforwings that what we need to care is we get what they are claiming to give us.

I just hope all this is not fake.:ugh:..If this prog is genuine and not fake I think its not a bad deal for guys who have money and need to get hours..I think this prog is mix of CAE and eagle jet prog..

If there is anyone else have been to their office and can shed more light on the contract please post..

[DragonFly-ing]

What 777-200 said :
I called up on the numbers given on website the guy over there is siddharth kasana he is the owner of the company he told me that everything is fair as we are the only agents in india to provide pilots to lion air !! he told me he had posted the link of the contract on the website. and abt kb what i heard is he is abt to join flag carrier GA

This is what SK said about his colleague KB or did somebody else? because b.737.ng who went to the office heard he is going to an Indian carrier from the same guy? I hope he did not lie to Lion himself of where he is going, because lion would sure like to get 10.000USD + some fine for bailing out before/early. He joined himself around January/February 2010..on a 2 year contract. But no 100.000USD bond of course ;) he is giving that to you guys as a good deal instead. :p . Well everybody here is happy to hear he is out anyway, hope we don't suddenly hear him on the radio from rwy 25R, that would be some missed cash for Lion again.

To confirm about 737ng above. We are talking about it on BBM etc. it is true about the Indonesian license and 15 hours SE to get the license. And the maximum validity is indeed 2 years if not on Indonesian license. So this all is correct I presume, i never denied this, only the people involved gives the guys here some suspicion. And everybody is having a laugh how the terms and conditions are so different to us eagle guys/cae. Yes indeed there was no paycheck, but lion is paying in my knowledge everybody on the end of the month... and it's more then 2000USD, and no 100.000 USD bond of course. We are not nuts. Did he explain why there is a 3 year/100.000USD/6month bond. It is not like Lion gives you a free Typerating for it....:rolleyes:

[b.777-200]

I just hope all this is not fake.:ugh:..If this prog is genuine and not fake I think its not a bad deal for guys who have money and need to get hours..I think this prog is mix of CAE and eagle jet prog..

How will you decide that this program is fake or not??? even if i have money i will not give it to anybody without having their track record just because i am so deperate to sit in the cockpit:=. U have to pay all the money to this MSD Aviation as written.

WHAT WILL YOU IF THEY DONT PLACE YOU IN LION AIR??? WHAT THEY NEED TO DO IS JUST SHUT DOWN THEIR RENTED OFFICE THAT THEY HAVE OPENED 2-3 WEEKS AGO!!:D

@b.737.ng keep the good work going for advertising abt MSD aviation !!!

[kalienator]

Honestly i truly hope the million dollar babies quickly sign up and leave !

Its because of them that every one wants to take our money....helloooo what about the compensation we discussed ....when do we start that .....

indigo
deccan
paramount
now
msd

They are not getting any passengers , so what the hell lets make some money out of pilots.....indians only.....wow...i think the whole world is aware....

We cant keep spending money like this ....back to back ...first flying , then ground school then medical , then exams ..now even the airlines ....

even the airlines......airlines and media have made a mockery out of pilots in india .

I am dumbfounded and miserable in profound grief after reading such articles ...such airlines or institutions should be rather criticized and banned by some regulatory authority to even operate in indian skies....they operators should be arrested on charges of indirect extortion and jailed for atleast 10 yrs .

this is as bad as doctor trading organs rather than treat patients.....

There is boom hire pilots on merit ! infact pilots with more than 500+ hrs at single engine cpl level should be given min preference who tried to buy there way through ....

else we are going to listen to stories like apples and nose wheel landings for the rest of the booming blooming days in this sector.

i truly hope that this msd thing works out for people who are here for fulling their "passion and child hood dream"

cheers!!!!

[Fly Zone TRA]

from what i learnt this MSD aviation charges atleast 1000/- bucks for d forms as well. So even if thedy get 100 desperados a month they make 1lakh. Which is not a tough target considering d number of ppl lookng for a job at d time. However does anyone realise that so much of training will again take enough time for u too b drained out of your wealth even b4 u get a job! & as its already visible, airlines in india have already started hiring. So I'd rather prefer that instead of putting a heavier loan burden on my parents.
Even at 15lakhs for jet, out of which u get 7.5 lakhs back and 25lakhs for this lion thingy Jet is still saving us 10lakhs so i'd rather work hard for that.
I checked d lion air site. All of theeir recruitment forms are in indonesian & i never found any mention of even a single hiring programme in India let alone about MSD aviatioon at all.
D forms available on d MSD aviation site are simple ones that any one can build on their ms-word.
plus the conditions our too close to slavery. Even if we overlook that , one thing that irks me badly is that WHY would any airline in d world make a deal and hire recommendations from those pilots who themselves are leaving the company in no time? (considering SKs already left & KBs bout to leave). So even though i'm excited about the opportunitty..I'm still skeptical and would like t be on d safe side unlike earlier when the same people got scammed off 25lakhs atleast each by ASA

oh btw, does any1 know anything about that Royale blue place which opened up in delhi? I was thinking about taking some Gd classes but dont know much about them so thought i'd gather some info before i meet one of their intructors cz apparently frm what I've heard their teaching centers different from their office. And u need to take an appointment if u want to meet an instructor for detailed counselling. If any1 has any idea regarding their address or phn number, kindly pm me. Thanks in advance.

[b.777-200]

I hope nobody get cheated through MSD aviation!! As dragon-fly said there are already some wild stories abt Mr kb in indonesia and abt Mr sk there is no track record of his good will. he worked for arik air in nigeria :D after he left indigo in just two months sounds suspicious.:=

[capt.xyz]

I agree totally with b.777-200 , i contacted few fellows of Mr.Kb , who r my mutual friends, even his friends r saying he is a big fraud.....so brotherly advice , don't fell in to these guys traps , rather work and study hard , there r lots of jobs coming in India rather than getting screwed up in Indonesia like Mr.Kb got screwed there .
:=

[sonsal]

any news with this MSD aviation????it is fake or really got the power to send indian pilots to lion air, but whatever condition is, 25 lacs is huge money and its not worth it.

[DragonFly-ing]

any updates on the ''good deal'' package from our Indian colleague Kush Bhasin and PT Lion Air Indonesia .. Looking forward in seeing the guys arrive in the mix of 140 hours a month flying captains in here. *if Indonesian dgca is reading, they don't care, as long as the 'cigarette-money' income stays secure under the table.* it's quite silent the last week... I think he is hiding under a rock before he jumps to Garuda and let his project MSD aviation ''recruiting friends'' :eek: to leave the new guys with a slave contract under the hood of the crooks in management on ''lantai 6(66)'' the devils lair ..... :} ....

[azax]

So now to Lion Air.

Currently the airline operates around 47 737’s, with 2 or 3 900ER’s being delivered every month in their “controlled expansion plan”. Just as a pointer as to what is to come, the USA FAA and Boeing are more than happy to let the Lion pilots come into the USA to pick up the new aircraft to take them to Indonesia, but Lion Air are never allowed to fly into the USA because the safety and attitude concerns of the Lion Crews, are rightly, blacklisted, and from Europe and America. Indeed, the only way the Lion delivery pilots are evern allowed to fly out of America, is that Boeing “employs” them as pilots working for them in a loop hole in the regulations.

So far this year, Lion Air have had more than 5 runway evacuations. The aircraft do not carry charts/ maps. There are “photo copies” of “photo copies” provided, however, often these are unreadable- would someone from Jeppesen please take note! Even when they are eligible, they are out of date. There are even a couple of instances of Lion Aircraft landing at the wrong airport, or turning up at the airport and landing on the wrong runway.

There is a complete disregard for flight time limitation; one instance of a pilot going more than 160 hours over. Another instance of an ex-pat pilot P2F pilot, when refusing to exceed his 110 hour per calendar month limit, being called more than 5 times by one of the deputy chief pilots (Sooleiman Makartot/ Rio Franky), and eventually being given the ultimatum of flying or being kicked off the “course”.

The regulations governing Indonesian aviation are CASA. I have toilet paper that means more to me than it does to the Lion management. By the way, if you do venture to Indonesia, you will need to carry loo roll with you a lot (along with Jep Charts)….that is if you can find a loo vs. a fly infested hole in the ground, surrounded by an inch of water that has trickled down someone’s backside. Great.

Scheduling is via SMS Text message and an online system called Geneva via their web based crew portal .The online rosta is about 10 percent accurate, it is always revised via SMS as the scheduling is done that night for the following day, so you are on constant standby and can never plan to do anything. I have received texts at 2am and 3am for a flight at 6am to Singapore. I refused, and then, I still would get a bang on the door from the irate driver telling you to hurry up. This happens once or twice a month to most of the expatriate crews that I have spoken too.

Currently there are about 80 expatriate pilots at Lion through CAE and Eagle; Lion plans to have more than 100+ by the end of 2010, as well as opening up their ageing 747-400 aircraft to the Eagle and CAE schemes, flying to their one and only destination, Jeddah. Accommodation is provided for CAE in Harmony Apartments, the Eagle pilots are told about the Harris hotel, and then are expected to find their own feet from there. Being told about the hotel is your indoctrination and introduction to the company and possible the only thing you will hear that makes sense from Ms. Meylda, the secretary to the Head of Flight Operations, “Captain” Filemon- whatever that title means!

Let me, at this point, point out that it is not just the First Officers who are paying to fly, there are indeed Captains on these “courses”. I am still trying to figure out what kind of airline in the world has their Captains and First Officer paying to fly for them! Madness.

You would try to leave knowing this wouldn’t you, if you had been stupid enough to come in the first place! Ha. Lion Air’s MD Rushdi Kirani (excuse the incorrect spelling sir), originally invented the ticketing system and software in use through the whole of Indonesia. He then opened up his own airline, and surprisingly, all the flights at Lion are full…sheer coincidence. Anyway, back to my point about trying to leave. The immigration office has “ties”/ bribe money to stop you leaving at the airport. On entry into Indonesia, you are initially given a tourist visa, and then, on completion of your “ground school” which was sitting in a classroom while the examiner told us the answers, you are then issued with a KITAS and work visa. This is in your passport, along with a “single entry” visa. So, if you want to leave the country now, you can’t, unless you have written permission a month in advance. Now imagine the scenario that a loved one dies, and you need to leave the country. I would almost say imagine leaving the country for a holiday, however, in your contract, holidays are banned, much like freedom of speech is with the gag clause. You are only allowed to leave to renew your licence/ medical.

It is my understanding that Indonesian law forbids working for free and that there is, like in most countries a minimum wage that needs paid. Not so the case with the P2F’s. Rumours, this being PPRuNe, are that the Head of Training is pocketing this small amount of compulsory salary money from over 80 of us now, in collaboration with a certain secretary, to an offshore account in New Zealand…

Back to the flying. All the communication from ground personnel and the majority of the flight attendants is in Bahasa which keeps you in the “loop”- the few that do speak a little English, it is well below standard. The Line training Captains English is good, however when you are released after training, the majority of line captains speak very simple English, indeed, there are a few Captains that do not speak one word of English which makes for an interesting game of Charades while flying a 70 tonne jet at 41,000ft with no map.

NOTAMS and Weather. I am not going to even bother telling you about the token documents you receive, SOMETIMES. Crew briefings. Say what? Best, get yourself a smart phone and check out the weather and Notams on that if you still plan on coming. Many of the places we fly to don’t have internet access, fire cover at the airport, or civilisation. Indeed, flying into Papua I think it was, there was a scantily clad man with a bow and arrow firing it at another scantily clad man with a bow and arrow…on the taxi way.

Lion, trying to maximise profits, as if having the staff paying to work for them was not enough, now aim for a quick turnaround or “fast track”, however, this just results in sometimes violent arguments erupting either between the flight crew, flight attendants, baggage handlers or dispatchers. Someone is getting it and its not pretty. No training was received about this new policy, merely an email (in Bahasa) telling you to, in so many words, haul ass. Since this “new” policy, there have been many incidents; indeed, one of my colleagues had an emergency diversion due to a fire in the cargo hold, whilst another had an explosion on landing.

You would think that, the authorities in Indonesia would do something- but the corruption is so bad that a blind eye is turned to nearly everything that is not white washed or bribed away.

Indeed, I really could go on….for hours about many other aspects of this unsafe and dangerous operation. I just wished to share my experience and hope that others will take heed. I am certain this will not stop the P2F madness from continuing, or will it stop the well heeled ME CPL IR’s from gaining experience in this way.

[azax]

does anyone know about this TRTO?

this is where MSD is planning to send the pilots for training.

[stiffy_pro]

MSD is sending pilots to the PremAir, Seattle

[cynicalczar2001]

i just got offered to go into lion air thru msd....i dunno if its legit tho...apparently im gona b put in batch 3...wonder how batch 1 and 2 went....or is there even a batch 1 and 2???
would really like to hear from a person who's already gone thru msd him/herslf....

[flyinghigh89]

just for the info..did they tell u when is the third batch leaving??

[fly.low]

i read their bond, and some points just dont make any sense.
For Eg: The Crew Member agrees that at no stage either during or subsequent to the termination of this Agreement, will the Crew Member claim that he was an employee of LION AIR or MSD AVIATION and bring any personal grievance or other claim on the basis that he is or was an employee of MSD AVIATION or LION AIR.

[flyboy111]

@ azax


Thanx alot buddy for the information i can totally believe you cause LION AIR is know for their poor saftey standards that is why they had that crash which came on AIR CRASH investigations

also i definately think MSD aviation is a FRAUD cause if you look at it they ask

you to give them a RS1000 Demand draft am guessing if all the unemployed

Indian pilots apply aprox 6000pilots ....... they make a cool RS6000000 i.e

$135000 hahahaha and if converted into indonesian rupiah hahaha i guess u just won the indonesian lottery @1,156,680,000IDR

So id say indian pilots go for it ull make it a little better for the rest of us who want to work in India

[vdaff]

Just saw their Facebook page and they are already looking for people for the 5th batch....so 4 batches have already gone for training and cant belive people even paid this much money for this:mad::mad:

Go to their facebook page there are even photos of the guys in the programme..
Gosh where did these guy get the money...

[captjns]

It's a shame that there are those who are willing to whore themselves out to get into the right seat of a jet. Even worse those pinheads are willing to accept crappy pay once on the line.

And everyone wants to know why terms and conditions related to this industry is in a tail spin:mad::ugh::mad:.

[vdaff]

They say 10 people per batch.... so already 40 people gone through

so 40 times 25 lacs is 10 crodes....Holycow

[sonsal]

Absolutely.....the guys have gone crazy......spending 25lacs plus 10% tax so around 27.5 lacs for the **** 80-90K per month in hand that too for 3 years and that too with LION air which is banned to fly in so many countries, I am sure when they get free from Lion air, lots of company gonna think before hiring them doesnt matter they'll be having good jet hours.....Guys wait for sometime than going for this **** Scam....MSD aviation.......why cant they pay the standard salary for the FO position.....Its total Bull**** thing guys.......complete slavery.....:ugh:

[Maverick 03]

Thats absolutely true....its such a shame....I really can't see people falling to such low standards.....
Yes u are right....Lion air is banned from entering any European country after some indecent mistakes committed by the pilots as well as the airline itself....
Really after these guys come back to India, any airline would definitely think over again before hiring them.....

[coral_bay]

flying as a FO for 2000USD is definitely a concern...but does it really matter which airline you were flying for after you gain some hours on 737. when airlines dint have a problem in hiring pilots with 1000-1500 hrs gained by flying in bushes or flying for some horribly maintained airlines or charters in Africa, they shouldnt be having a problem in hiring a pilot with more than 1500hrs on 737. I consider all that should matter is your performance in simulator checks. This is just me thinking of this opportunity on a positive note.

[DragonFly-ing]

I consider all that should matter is your performance in simulator checks. This is just me thinking of this opportunity on a positive note.


Now that's a funny thing you mention... because the news within WIII and bandara mas (the sim/training area of lion) here says that the last batch (is it the first doing simcheck?:E) out of the 10 chaps .... 9 of them totally failed.
It is a nice joke that everybody already see coming this way for the poor guys. (major rumor... usually true within the Blackberry chats). poor chaps :sad:.
:rolleyes:

Pay way to much to a shabby MSD with Kush Bhasin and his partner in New Delhi and of course expect CRAP in return in a Typerating in the US that last 2 weeks. According to their nice Face-booky they started April 3rd and fnished april 16?? :ok: ... the pictures in there are funny as well, from observation flights and CBT. How must their relatives and parents feel back in India?

''ah, yes son, we invest the money in the MSD for you and Lion, and then your son fails the simrides, because MSD does provide ****ty training... fly away the LACS to MSD''. MSD and the founders must be laughing there asses off in their money pool now, that batch 5 is already starting.. and now the huge fail is coming out :D

Most of us guys pity the poor fools, but they made the call anyway (or their parents did....).. we see them walking with no bars in the Flops (operations), making pictures of themselves like brad pitt in a sauna.. and now what? Failed the sim?? :( .. actually I really wish them well in all... but still funny about the MSD groups here that make NO good impression to management and all the guys flying here.

Happy Landings
Hope they get some compensation for the pain. :ouch:

[Maverick 03]

so wats now with these chaps....are they gonna give any re-checks or are they gonna head back to india straight away??

[blackhawk777]

Everyone who has failed the SIM CHECK have been asked to appear for a training which may cost another 4-5 lac... And the people who are opting out have been told tht in case u don't want to appear for the training the initial amount paid would not be returned as they are not going by wat the contract says....

I really pity these people..... either they have a MONEY TREE in their back yard or their brain are up their a**.....

Anyone who has visited the MSD office in one of the dingy locality of Delhi would have easily made out where they are putting their money.. !!!

Even i visited to find about the whole process.... around 2nd week of march...

The incharge their told me that they have already sent their first batch for training to Boeing Training and Flight Services in Seattle.....
He was surprised to know and later changed his statement when i told him tht i just came back from there.. and for his information I was the first Indian candidate apart from the Indian Airforce who has trained at their service....

[Maverick 03]

"either they have a MONEY TREE in their back yard or their brain are up their a**"
well said...

yeah really these guys are in a big sh**.

But i don't get one thing...as far as i know...the guys who went in the 1st n 2nd batch were already type rated (msd didn't send them to their TRTO)....and atleast some must have done their type rating from a good TRTO....and even those guys couldn't clear the sim-check....surprising!!

So how can one say that its a fault of MSD...i mean those guys must have been really stupid to be not able to clear the sim-check......coz in india also every airline does their own sim-check and then those guys must have flunked those also!!!

And btw, how do u know about the news of these guys?

[738james]

failed the SIM CHECK !!?? are those guys on type !! capt or F/O ?

[vserian]

Whenever you are going to shed some Lacs make sure you are confident about yourself, because this thing is not for everyone especially the ones who know they struggled a lot during their CPL training and of course the overconfident ones. I am not talking on these MSD guys but in general, prepare well before any Sim checks, take those books, manuals and burn the midnight oil and practice instrumentations on PC flight simulators (there is a product called PMDG 737 its good to check out some stuffs on it). There are many who never thinks about these test, interview etc, if they throw out some money they assume they can get to the right seat straight away.

[blackhawk777]

MSD was targeting fresh CPL candidates and was charging them some 25 lac for the whole program....

Type rated candidates who had finished their type and were disappointed as JEt and Air India Exp had stop the recruitment... Soo the candidates were left with only 2 options.... Either apply in Spice or Lion Air...

Don't even ask me about the Spice recruitment because how they treated the Type Rated candidates and the bonds the candidates have signed with Spice is nothing but a perfect example of BONDED LABOUR !!

Anyway... the candidates who applied in Lion were charged about 10 - 12 Lac... ( According to them this amount included CPL conversion from Indian to Indonesian as they were signing contract for 3 yrs.... Medicals... Base training.... Sim checks etc )

When I visited MSD in delhi... the incharge told me that the program is actually for freshers ( and told me about the Boeing thing ) but since lot of TR candidates are applying so they actually took TR guys also....

I honestly can't comment on how the candidates performed during the sim check... but its tooo much of a coincidence tht 9 out of 10 guys failed the check !!!

Source of Information : Spicejet and me have a long history.... Visited MSD with a friend who's now having difficulty in bowel movements as his brain was actually up his a** !!!!

[vserian]

@blackhawk777

How much $$$ did those 9 guys lost?

[Johny Boy]

Vserian

25 lakh's was course fee's for MSD / Lion Air program.

So they lost 25 lakh's if they dont pay another 4 lakhs-5 lakhs ( 9500 $ - 11500 $) for re-training or whatever.
For TR guys - I guess same amount.

Total cost for Failed SIM rides - 29-30 lakh's.
Total cost for Brain Damage - Infinite ( For MSD sent pilots ):E

Way to go MSD !

[blackhawk777]

I don't know abt the freshers.... But TR candidates paid 10-12 lac....

I don't have the actual figures of the money lost but as Johny Boy said...... INFINITE BRAIN DAMAGE... !!! :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[vserian]

Holy cow..
If that is true then I really feel sorry for those guys.

[gabonbabon]

it's a pitty in the age of technology people believing these kinda scams and putting their parents hard earned money into the hands of these two LOSERS KB AND SK.........
wonder if any of these guys willbe able to ever get a job anywhere else coz MSD has dug a deep F******G hole in their pockets....

do you think these guys have a way out of this???:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Chocks Away]

I agree Gabon.
It's all about people with NO idea about the Industry, it's safety requirements and the aviation history... ie how we got to here, after the hundreds of accidents/deaths we have meant to have learnt from... all to make quick buck$.

flying as a FO for 2000USD is definitely a concern...but does it really matter which airline you were flying for after you gain some hours on 737.
Absolutely it IS a concern. It's a disgrace! Being new, Coral Bay, can i suggest alot of reading up on the term "Affordable Safety". It's what managements have been pushing for some years in airlines around this region... seeing how far they can keep lowering the conditions of pilots, while their own cake gets bigger... until a "safety incident" occurs... all very well UNTIL that incident involves relatives of management!:ugh:
Well here's the news: a loaded B737ng =70-80million$, plus the indemnity/insurance of the paying passengers and crew... will send a company bankrupt and management to jail! They better start thinking about whether they want L-plate (learners) up the front, with the company's survival hanging in the balance with evey flight, while they go about their "learning experiences" and mistakes.

Aviation experience, knowledge and safety, costs and doesn't come cheaply, but for a serious airline, it provides assurance that the operation will be safer & stronger.

Don't sell your soul to the rogues for trash conditions, because it will never stop once you start!

happy landings:ok:

[DragonFly-ing]

Well, If so many guys failed the simulator... why pay 4-5 lacs more to MSD ?
Don't the guys realize they got FOOLED and needed the good training OR preparation in the first place. So MSD need to provide the extra training themselves for FREE .

And the guys must start seeing that this KB is no
''master who provides them with a chance, hail to the king babyyy'' :} ...
on face--booky they say on pictures ''courtesy of mr kush'' or smthing ..
fack. :}
no ... this guy is making money on you guys and giving you a weak preparation for the money.

Even if you were Typerated before, they should have prepared and instructed you better :bored: eaglejet and CAE are doing a better job in it.. even though sometimes 1 in 12-15 guys (cae/eagle) fails a sim by crashing or a over the top Sim instr. who thinks indonesian pilots should be flying on Lunar Missions because of their skills and fail a poor cadet to talk about it at the next boardmeeting... but hey.. some eaglejetters amongst us even past the sim by even landing on the taxiway.. reposition on final, and try again and land on the REAL rwy this time ... passed.. they need the pilots that bad dude. :ouch:

We don't get it that they haven't lynched this KB guy in public yet for making them look foolish...:oh:

What's happening next...pay again?? you know blackhawk777 ?

See you around, enjoying the indo-skies and the BB chats about this Indian Adventure Group :rolleyes:

[vdaff]

apparently if you fail you need to pay 5 more lacs

Batch 5 has already started and 10 people already enrolled

[Johny Boy]

So the new cost is 25 + 5 lakh's.:ugh:

Great next what charging money for doing taxi on wrong taxiway?

[MTBUR]

@vdaff If you're stalking this program so much either sign up or give up. You have no right to be on a high horse, so get off the fence!

[vdaff]

so what do you want me to do??? delete thios thread and make a new one saying give your money to msd

[LieDetector]

stop posting vdaff

at first i felt sorry for you, but now you are nothing more than a nuisance

[vdaff]

unlucky people are always considered as nuisance and unwanted....thats how is it

[blackhawk777]

Don't know about the freshers who applied but.... the type rated candidates who had failed their sim check have to pay somewhere around $8k - $10k.... do a bit of training clear the checks and they'll be online....

The candidates are pretty happy and according to them things are going smooth.. !!!

Well to sum up.. Some are ready to pay 15 lac @ Lion Air and are still happy..... Some pay 8 - 12 lacs @ Spicejet and are happy too..... Some pay nothing @ Jetairways and are super happy..... and there are some who are not getting a chance to pay at all (unemployed) and the experienced one's..... Who have all the talking to do !!!!

I say... To each one on his own !!!!

[MTBUR]

no, not any people, vdaff, just you. You clearly have a lion air fetish, but don't have the sack to just sign up. Get over yourself, stop thinking you have a right to give your repeated 2 cents on every post. We all know you think you should be chief pilot of (Insert latest airline your posting history shows you being love with but will soon hate after they reject you here).

:ugh:

you're preaching to the choir about lion air - but what you're doing seems to be trying to convince yourself it's a bad thing, when in reality it's your only hope to be part of an industry that clearly doesnt want you - thats how is it.

[captainsuperstorm]

even the airlines......airlines and media have made a mockery out of pilots in india

seems it s the same **** in India, P2f is everywhere, all around the world!
if people make fun of indian pilots, it s because you accept to be a whore.

indian pilots are a low cast! untouchable!:E

[aircupidon]

You guys know if msd hire non indian national?

[PPRuNe Towers]

Technically speaking you hire MSD - if daft enough

[aircupidon]

how long do we have to wait before getting an application answer from msd guys,saw that batch IV is online now there hiring for batch 5

[jetjockey696]

OK.. GUYS.. lion air up again with its tricks and back stabbing methods..

yesterday my friend call me who working for lion got told that the extension of contract which you recieve after 2years IF you want no longer exist..

Extension contract was cruel copy of the expat garuda pilot package....

10 weeks on 2weeks off. 5750usd per month for FO. and that about it.. hahaha.. which was much better than the local contract in lion... i guess that why the pilots was taking meth... etc.. I would too..with that pay and condtions.

Good luck in scheduling... when the next batch of CAE and eaglejet departs lion in the next few months i believe:E

All because there was no threat of jumping ship to garuda...no competition to get and make pilots stay.. he was told... so contract gone.. myself not jumping ship but jump out the country.

Good Luck guys... keep the faith..:ok:

[sonsal]

Here is some news about the owner of MSD aviation

Pilot assaults traffic cop, held at SDelhi farmhouse
New Delhi: A 27-year-old England-based commercial pilot was sent to judicial custody after he allegedly assaulted a traffic police constable near Tivoli Gardens. The accused, identified as Siddharth Kasana -working with a private airlines - was arrested late on Friday night at his Tivoli farmhouse for criminal charges of obstructing a public servant, assault and voluntarily causing hurt to a public servant on duty. He was produced in court on Saturday following which he was sent to judicial custody.
Kasana had parked his Toyota Landcruiser on a narrow lane, parallel to Chhattarpur Road, when he went to buy cigarettes around 11pm. The car was blocking the path of other vehicles which compounded the congestion on the stretch, said cops.
The constable, Dinesh, had asked Kasana to remove his vehicle. Taking offense, Kasana verbally abused the constable and even broke a soda bottle to assault the constable, said cops. "Soon, a police force rushed to the spot but the accused managed to flee. Chase and challan cops followed him to his residence in Tivoli from where he was arrested," said a senior police officer.
15/11/11 Times of India

[juncal3616]

Sorry, anyone knows how to send a resume to Lionair?

[Cactus225]

Well to sum up.. Some are ready to pay 15 lac @ Lion Air and are still happy..... Some pay 8 - 12 lacs @ Spicejet and are happy too..... Some pay nothing @ Jetairways and are super happy..... and there are some who are not getting a chance to pay at all (unemployed) and the experienced one's..... Who have all the talking to do !!!!

I say... To each one on his own !!!!

;).. Best lines I ever read on Pprune..

Cant resist being cheesy and mentioning a remotely related, pathetic movie quote for us all-

"Denial, is not just a river in Egypt" LOL!

Just hope the 'Aviation thingy' booms again, most of get decent jobs and can move on with our lives.. I am quite tired of all this BS.

As for MSD- yes its a messed up contract for a messed up airline. But we all know that we are in an equally messed up situation and wont mind getting our minds messed with a wee bit further..

Got a friend there in Batch 4- he just flunked his Sim Check- He also claims to have received the best training during the TR. The entire batch flunked!

Who cares? whats 5lacs out 60?.. they all knew this was coming even before they enrolled.- and now - so do you.

Another slightly modified cheesy quote for our benefactor in pretense - ( cause I am bored and dont know whose pockets to load in order to unload my frustration. )

" I know I had sunk far too deep, I had to start from the rock bottom. But to get to the rock bottom- first I had to start working with MSD" hehe..

If you need more in-depth gyan on the superb MSD Aviation CONtract- lets start your training by buying me a beer - I will be happier to sing you a tune then.

BS.

[atpcliff]

Lion Air just placed an order for up to 380 737s. They will need a LOT of pilots!!!

cilff
KGRB

[captjns]

Lion Air needs to step up to the plate and bacome a mature professional carrier.

Lion Air needs to rethink their compensation and benefits package too if they want to attract qualified talent on both sides of the "house", Mx and Ops.

[jetjockey696]

All the planes ordered are not coming for the next 4years... maybe... guys... the planes that are coming are going to replaced what they have been flying... old out new in...

FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN LION AIR.... NO POINT WRITING TO LION. THEY WILL NOT ACCEPT YOU. no direct hiring.... they have enough FO/CAPT from Eaglejet, CAE and MSD. SO YOU HAVE TO COME FROM EAGLEJET, CAE, MSD and RISHWORTH if you are TRI, TRE and training capt.


Well said Captjns..... no experience crew will come.. to lion. the pay is very bad.. well below standard. They cant even keep there present crew.. local and expats are leaving., due to pay and working conditions... so they depend on P2F pilots.

[Gligg]

I wonder if the the P2F barrel is going to be deep enough to crew that number of aircraft, considering certain European economies where a majority of the P2F'ers originate are currently in freefall.

[jetjockey696]

I heard it was from Spicejet...

[Silver Spur]

Pardon me for rather silly question, but how much in USD is 25 Lacs?
Cheers

[asw2606]

(Pardon me for rather silly question, but how much in USD is 25 Lacs?
Cheers)
Not silly at all...
25Lacs - 2.5 million
Works out to US $47624.

[Silver Spur]

Wow, a lot of money.... Thanks.

[captkirk3000]

Well MSD only works with Indian citizens so there you go. As for the rest of us out in the world its a NO!
The sim ride sounds kinda normal to me. Once you are prepared, there is a great chance of success.
Question...what is the success rate at Lion Air?

[LieDetector]

Its always these 'my friend' stories
:p

[sonsal]

Now Siddharth kasana or Kush basin explaning their great deal with MSD aviation here....:}
We understand that you are providing opportunity to unemployed pilots but atleast give them salary's according to the standards.
2000USD for 3 freaking years for a B737NG and 100,000USD bond......shameless!!!!!

[captjns]

Many future children of the magenta line are sucking the lives out of their families finances… and what for… instant gratification. How self serving can one be?

No mature self-respecting human being on this planet would subscribe to any of these programs.


Moderatorpprun claims a friend is complaining that .....


He said its not only MSD pilots fail but also pilots from CAE, Eagle jet and Rishworth fail. He also added if the standards of Lion Air sim sessions were just way to high.

Perhaps your friends with circa 250 hours of flight time are unable to perform to standards? Four fundamentals of flight??? Land in the touchdown zone on the centerline? V1 cuts… etc? Bottom line Moderatorpprun, they are not ready for demands required to fly a high performance aircraft.

That said Moderatorpprun, your mates don't have the right to blame TREs for poor performance.


I have no objection to a family investing in a child’s dream. Parents should instill the values in their children so they can help their children provide a better life, live up to their potential, and appreciate the goals achieved in life.

I do find objection to anyone who pay these so-called reputable training centers, money so they can sit in the right seat of a shiny jet and log time. Log time for what… sitting there watching the scenery pass by. Maybe get a landing or two during their 250 hours of occupying the right seat. How can one justify calling it logable flight time? Why... because $25,000 plus the cost of a type rating was paid? How can “Pay to Play pilot”, with a bit of conscience, sit at the same table with first officer who paid their dues and earned their position?

Ladies and Gentlemen… these miscreants are aiding and abetting in the decline in respect, and of terms of our profession. By aiding and abetting in the decline of our profession they are also feeding airlines additional fodder for the justification of the new generation pilot, the “Pay to Play Pilot”. Shame on these miscreants… shame on the parents who are willing to support their children beyond their CPLs… shame on the flight schools who hawking these disillusioned people and shame on the airlines that endorse and support such programs.

[ittal]

Well to be fair to lion air making you pay for extra training costs, its not too different from other airlines hiring either. You could fail the test with jet or indigo and not get as much as a second attempt. They dont have a bond either that states theyll employ you once your rated on thier aircraft. It is a ****ty deal , but waiting on a jobs in a bleeding market isnt the best option either

[aroumika]

what's the feedback like from all the batches that have been recruited through this process thus far? if it was entirely a scam, surely it would have been all over the news by now

if anyone who has gone through the whole process and currently right seat with lion air can post some kind of feedback on here, it would be deeply appreciated so that all of us can get a better insight into the process and make better choices, thanks :)

[captjns]

And if there are responses, I would like to know how these P2Fers can justify as to how they are contributing to the quality of ther terms and conditions for those pilots who do not have the financial support of their mothers and fathers to pay for such programs.

[aroumika]

i'm really surprised by the fact that, out of all the pilots that have "supposedly" gone through this process, no one has voluntarily come out and given any kind of feedback :sad: feedback, that's all i'm asking for, i just want to know what this whole experience is like so i can make a better choice for myself, anybody!? why is this thread so quiet?

[Speedbird744]

The indian guys who are on this program (I know of two) are far too busy flying then coming here on pprune. Go on the MSD Aviation FB page to have a look at what is going on.

[prax687]

if it was entirely a scam, surely it would have been all over the news by now


If its a total scam P2Fers can;t come up with against Lion none would get their money back for sure and its hard task for them to break Lion's norms...

I had a chance to talk with a P2F guy in phone, he said me about lic validation & stuffs but hardly answered about lion's work atmosphere In fact no one does willingly share his bumpy experiences I guess..

[airbuscopilot]

@aroumika

Speedbird is right.

When one gets recruited, especially for a company like LION AIR all the checks, refreshers, flying hours take so much time of your life (low hour guys) that u just want to then make the most out of your leftover time to do something FUN!

That may not include searching for forums to answer questions about the program.

I am not advocating for the program, but just responding to your query of why no one has commented on it.

Neither am i associated with this P2F.

[captjns]

I seriously doubt any of the chest beaters promoting the Lion/Eagle scheme who've been hosed will come forward. Oh well.

[thomas00776]

Hello friends.... Does any one know bout KNOTS AVIATION in delhi...???? They say they have some tie ups with airlines, and we basically need to spend 35lakhs for 500 hours +3 years years guaranteed job.... Have any one gone through them for their course.....????? Any good advise for this...????

[sweptwings]

I went to the knots aviation office last week...I have a friend who has gone in 1st batch of knots. The program seems to be prety genuine...but no doubt it is also quite expensive...

[fareez36]

to which company knots aviation hire?
and only for indian local pilot or expat.?
:rolleyes:

[vinit]

Can anyone shed light on authenticity of Eagle jet, knots aviation, msd??

[Move On]

Hahaaa....Well said Jetjockey 696..:D:D:D

[JLMF]

Knots aviation hiring for fo, ptf .
Any True feedback?

[jetjockey696]

:* i guess my post got deleted by moderator again... I guess my words where a bit to harsh for some guys to take.. a bit too raw..

never mind.. i guess some STUDENT will always sit at home.. if they dont how to write a CV and address themselves properly.. NOT CAPTain. :sad:

I guess this is soft enough approach....for students

[clrd]

@jetjockey696

Sir,

I guess you haven't gone through a phase where you were a STUDENT. And by the way not every Cessna 150, 152, 175 Indian Pilot writes Capt. as suffix in their CVs, so word like many INDIANS or SOME INDIANS would have been appropriate. Considering all those STUDENTS use suffix Capt. in their CV, as a senior couldn't you have corrected them??? Ohh wait, it's a courtesy :ouch:, may be this CAPTAIN is one of those who have FOs carrying their luggage.

I am not saying that point raised by you was wrong, but the way you described it certainly was.

P.S. never mind.. i guess some STUDENT will always sit at home.. if they dont how to write a CV and address themselves properly.. NOT CAPTain.

I don't know what the hell "if they dont how to write a CV" suppose to mean.....:ugh:

Look who is laughing at STUDENT'S CV.....!!!!!

[JLMF]

Citijet garuda via knots aviation..

[nostep]

CLRD, I can read that maybe your cv is similar,

I have had the pleasure of reading many CV's for postions of employment, some good examples of not getting a job

Am willing to pay for Type rating call me to
To sending in 10 PAGES of what I could of being before I decided TO BECOME A PILOT.

But the best laughts are as Jet Jockey has said 95% Pilots from India call themselves Capts with 200 hours on single engine aircraft.

Guys what Jet Jockey was trying to say is: If you can send e-mail you have access to internet so type Goggle, Subject: How to write a avaition CV if I really want a Job,

EASY then maybe someone might say ok

Jetjockey please 5% are Captains looking for jobs

Happy Hunting

[Johny Boy]

Eh, Why to stereotype every Indian pilot in " Captain " bracket with some oddly doodly hours ? Oh wait this is public forum for bashing Indian kids....

I had pleasure of sending my simple one page useless CV to many organizations with some finger counting hours to show off against my plain name and sadly doodly hours of mine got me decent flying job.

Damn i thought Aviation Skills will get some one job rather than paper with 95 % rubbish information :uhoh:

Ohh please 5% of Indians here are looking to help kids without being abrasive or arrogant !!

[JLMF]

any info about knots aviation??

[nostep]

Johny Boy as like you I got my first job by sending in a 1 page well written CV after researching what my new employer wanted to hear.

Indian bashing no way out of 300 applicants I have read every week I will put 99% in do not action pile due to a bad CV, alot of these CV are applications from INDIA. I look for a quality CV that shows this person has done his homework, as the same as my first employer did.

So please dont think this is about bashing anyone, its about everyone applying for a job. When sending CV in, Please remember your 1 of thousands looking for a job, make it stand out of the crowd.

You create your own destiny

Happy Hunting:ok:

[SaabCapt]

knots same thing as griffin/glorietta possibly a sublet. Asking price 35lakhs, most likely someone known to Anand Mishra started this with the hope of pocketing 5laksh per student for himself.

[Johny Boy]

A simple one page CV with basic general details along with academic cum aviation knowledge is good enough for showing off valuable personal information which will give NOTICE to prospective employers.

Attention is not generated by DESIGNS or STYLE Layout on PAPER....rather it generates DIRECT ENTRY to Dustbin.

Lastly - Do not stereo type certain section of society or class in one bracket as not all are wannabe's or silver spoon vagabonds !

Destiny is created by willpower !!

[mukul320]

knots aviation fake or not? need info..

[clrd]

@nostep
First of all hats off to your "Divine Vision" to read my CV just by reading a post of mine on a anonymous public forum. And second is it doesn't seem you read my post properly(May be you use all your reading ability to read CVs only). So read this again.....
I am not saying that point raised by you was wrong, but the way you described it certainly was.

And
Guys what Jet Jockey was trying to say is: If you can send e-mail you have access to internet so type Goggle, Subject: How to write a avaition CV if I really want a Job

I wish your "Divine Vision" explained what jetjockey696 was trying to say way before. That way we would't have wasted too much time.....:rolleyes:

@Johny Boy
Well said mate............:D

[nostep]

Clrd

You should work in a circus as you are a clown, haaaaaaa
I've been called alot of things but never being called that before,


Enjoy your job hunting

[abhi4u2]

Hello Guys,
We all know that the Aviation Field in India is totally corrupted and so is it becoming abroad as well.
Still i have a job opportunity for many of you.
I need 11 Candidates for a 737-200 programme and with a guaranteed job.
There is no catch.Its simple,You will have to pay for your type rating and plus some extra cash to get in.
Anyone Interested please contact me here by message.
N please guys its not a scam,if you think i am joking please don't contact me.
Thanks.

[captjns]

If it's a real job with no catches, then no additional money over above the cost of the type rating should be spent. If not then the scheme is nothing more than that of a pay to pay scheme... one which does not garner respect among those who entered into the cockpit under legitimate means.

[clrd]

@nostep

Your reply to my post is hardly relevant and shows what kind of IQ level:confused: you have. Or may be it came out of anger and arrogance......I am having hard time to stop laughing at it.

Anyway, thanks for suggestion( though it's unnecessary) and remember there are many things you might come across or be called first time....;)

[jetjockey696]

Guys... world has changed since the LCC and P2F came on to the scene. Now there are two business to aviation...RECRUITMENT and the AIRLINE.. both go in hand. There are no free jobs anymore for the fresh CPL holders, money talks. you pay agency P2F. or you pay for typerating and pay a bond.. YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR SOMETHING somewhere. The situation is that everyone gets a cut. the recruitment agency, airlines (free labour for a short time and some money from agency), the pilot (getting a maybe job).

P2F is like herpes..cold sores. you cant get rid of it..it will spread to others.. you just got to live with it...

unless you are very lucky to get into a cadet program of course but how many will get it. and how many places that is being offered. and some time it not the dedicated person get in. especially in Cathay pacific.. most are there because it a job and if they dont get in they will try next door banking or some financial sector, no lost there..

I am not a lover of P2F.. but you have to accept it. its evolution. the world is getting tougher to survive and its dog eat dog... you may heard your fellow buddy a fresh cpl...saying i never turn to p2F or pay of type rating take his/her word with a pinch of salt. they have already sent CV to employers "i am willing to pay for type rating and start soon" hahaha

[jetjockey696]

btw...

I THINK my message has gone through... no more CAPTAIN 200hrs have been sending CV...to company. for now... probably gone to call center.:ok:

[rebelco]

Hi , i cannot send u a message as my profile doesn't allow it yet, can u send me info about the 737 type and job, thank you.

[Johny Boy]

btw...

I THINK my message has gone through... no more CAPTAIN 200hrs have been sending CV...to company. for now... probably gone to call center.

May be some of them got flying job by paying or changing suffix of their names or probably now know why they are not getting acknowledgement call from the company they are sending CV's as the concerning person on desk is busy with TROLLING on anonymous forum with a nick that resembles more like old timer pushed aside from his sandpit job by more younger bloke !!

One advice - Use high SPF Sun screen cream !
Tick Tock it's Dusty Oily Time Ahead !!

[siul]

Any news from MSD AVIATION? They will start soon I heard,,

There is any othe program similar to them (apart from Eagle )

Regards

[Speedy737]

Hello all!!
After reading some of the posts on this thread I feel I need to put my two cents in. Initially I came here to see if I could get some info on Lion Air, but that hasn't happened!! @jetjocky, it's not really the fault of the young Indian guys putting Capt before their names. In India pretty much anyone with a pilot's license is called Capt!! I'm Indian, work in India, and think it's incredibly stupid!!! However that's all some of these guys know.
As for the Pay To Fly program...well, I personally think that it is really bad for the industry. Having the money doesn't make one a competent pilot, and there are heaps of good pilots out there that should be in the right seat because they can actually handle a heavy jet!! Flying a 737 is no joke. However, I do understand the need to get to the right seat of a big shiney 737. Still there are other jobs on the market that don't demand you paying 25 or 35 lacs, or whatever it is. Fly a caravan or twin otter, or the likes. Get your hours up and have a blast flying those machines!! The jet jobs will come your way.
Good luck to all of you!! Cheers

[SaabCapt]

@speedy 737

Would you be kind enough to provide me with numbers or the addresses of the people who are willing to hire CPL holders without refrence for 'caravans or other twins' ?
I don't know how does everyone in India become an expert in giving advices. Have you ever tried knocking on the doors of these charters? If you would have actually done that yourself, you would really know what you're talking about.

I'm not defending P2F, not at all. But those whose who are paying 25-30 lakhs aren't idiot either. They have cleared the same checks that you or I have. It all comes down to how and when you can grab an opportunity.
Be first, be fast. That's how it works here.

[nostep]

Saab Capt when you think about becoming a pilot in any country, do you think just by getting your CPL it gives the right to demand a job flying straight away, or do you do some due diligence to work out your career path, Plus its supply and demand, in India what I read to many Cpls not enough jobs,so you answer your own question. Same as becoming a Doctor and Lawyer. You just dont wake up in the middle of the night and say I want to become a doctor or lawyer and the next day doors will just open for you, its all about hard work.

There is plenty of jobs out there say Africa for one example, as alot of expats have down that path and got of there arses done the home work and traveled to these places, I wouldnt say all have got jobs but you have to right place right time Aviation Industry is like that.

I agree these pay to fly jobs are just pulling Pilots wages down down down, I remember not that long ago Pilots were paid more than Lawyers and Doctors, Now pilots are prostituting them selves by paying for a job but thats another war all ready fought in this forum.

Think twice before you start your career in aviation as its all about disappoints and little success. If I can could turn back time I would have stayed in school and maybe done something else:ugh:.

[Speedy737]

@saabcapt don't know how you're such an expert on where I'm employed, or where I was employed before!! I'm not saying it's easy getting a job, but if you look around you'll find them. As nostep says, go look in Africa...heaps of jobs out there for low hour guys. Great flying experience too!! Check out Susi Air in Indonesia. At least you're not paying that huge amount of money. Corporate jobs in India as well. And @ saabcapt don't be so quick to judge, trying to be of some help here, but you seem to know it all anyway!!

[captjns]

A number of missionaries are looking for pilots too. They build their time the legitimate way... not prostituting themselves and keeping the bar low. Imagine a world whew there were no P2F children around. Carriers would be forced to pay a wage to those qualified for the job.

But unfortunately self gratification seems to win out.:{

[carlover]

Can you send my email to your friend to tell us more about knots aviation?

[email protected]

i'm planing to get in the second batch so, I need some feedback

thanks for considering:D

[siul]

Stay away from KNOTS, I got the contract and is deep ****

[sim01]

All people hear is how you young guys with brand new CPL's think everyone owes you a life , owes you a job , it's YOUR right , demand everyone calls you CAPTAIN with 200-300hours , when will you spoilt brats learn , when will you realize there are other countries with the same unemployed CPL holders not only you in India . Are you guys so damm good ? Think again , why are most of you failing the BASIC simulator checks ? Then complaining the sim standards are too high or is it because of your low standards , get a life guys and face reality , look in the mirror and see exactly who and what you are before making unnecessary comments on the site , just makes you all sound like real immature spoilt brats , get a life first then grow up and maybe you'll have a chance , maybe

[aviatorzuckeberg]

I got a call from Glorietta aviation regarding written exams for LION AIR NON TYPE RATED PROGRAM FOR 737 to be held in Delhi.....I wanted seek info from any pilots who have appeared for the written exams which include aptitude,simulator tests etc.....like what kinda of questions will be asked and where should i refer and which books should i refer...any help will be appreciated....thanx

[Cactus225]

Hey PanAm.. where are you from?

I tried Africa job on Caravan too: answer get a TR for caravan. Don't know about TR but got training in Wichita at FSI. Then, no answer anymore.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

That could have been fun. Did you go to Africa for that?

[am-rj-tbt]

Msd is the only one who can hire Indians for lion they have an exclusivity contract unless it has been revoked or something which I am do not think has happeved

[DragonFly-ing]

I couldn't dig up the other thread on MSD from a few weeks ago. ah well. Continue in this one then.

Latest rumours *confirmed kinda* are that all Indian pilots via MSD Aviation are grounded in Jakarta and under investigation by Lion Air and the Indo-Government. Any details? Fake licences are word of mouth around here....

Kush Bhasin not flying anymore? Need to sell the apt he bought for his local girl?
(and yes, his name can be mentioned, since this guy needs his name out in the limelight for a reason):}

[captjns]

Kush Bhasin (and yes, his name can be mentioned, since this guy needs his name out in the limelight for a reason)

Inappropriate, immature, and unproffesional mate. Take you beef directly to the chap you have issues with. I hope the Mods feel the same.

[nostep]

Just asked my local source and yeb Kush is still flying {indo licence) his new CRV parked underneath work supplied apartment and yes he enjoyed his trip to London with his GF in Dec and Jan ( thanks for working hard guys) :ok::D

[Sky Dancer]

So is Lion Air and Indonesion govt still accepting expat FOs ? How many FOs are there from India right now and how much does it cost ?

[Jay71]

Those who are interested in joining the Lion Air program through MSD Aviation,
Well MSD aviation recruits pilots who holds a valid CPL multi-IR for a type-rating and a job placement in Lion Air , The executive director Mr. Siddharth Kasana and Director operations Mr Kush Bhasin operates the company operations in New Delhi and Jakarta, Indonesia . MSD aviation have placed around 90 pilots in lion air till now , both the directors are completely money minded :ugh: they just want their monthly share in their hands for that they will issue forged Noc's which were never issued from the Indian DGCA & when you submit your documents for the renewal of IR rating they would tempered your license without letting you know about any sort of bull**** that they did on it ,they will make an entry on your logbook as a sim check & they would even make a fake sim check report and all that bull**** gets submitted in DGCA and by the time the applicant comes to DGCA to asked about his license , he gets all sort of bull**** in his file , the fake sim check reports , fake Noc's , fake logbook entry's , Since its a MSD'S policy in which they states that they will do all the documentation work related to DGCA the pilots working for the company gets their IR renewed with a fake sim check reports and MSD has paid a good amount of bribe in DGCA to get the things done without any verifications:D.
MSD aviation states that Lion Training Centre is a TRTO and of course everything can happen in a place like India where you just have to pay good amount of money to get the things done :ugh:
Lion training centre isn't a TRTO so therefore even if a pilot does a sim check on those sims which ar placed in LTC even then also it won't count for IR renewal & the pilot who recently crashed an aircraft in Bali is an Indian , who flew for months on a fake NOC which was never issued by the DGCA and apparently the pilot doesn't even know from where did he did his last sim check for the purpose of IR renewal because he submitted his licenses to MSD aviation and Mr siddharth Kasana & Mr. Loveraj Singh made forged sim check reports under the knowledge of these pilots , few of them who were against all this forgery has already logged a complaint against MSD aviation soon there will be CBI knocking the DGCA doors again , they have also tempered a license of one of the pilots who was working for their company when the pilot came to India and visited the DGCA , he got to know his file has been lost , In the end he got to know that the training documents of B737 which were directly send to MSD aviation from the TRTO for the purpose of B737 endorsement were never submitted to DGCA in fact Mr siddharth kasana tempered his license, the pilot has already logged a complain and ending this matter by filing a court case against (MSD Aviation Mr. Siddharth kasana, loveraj Singh , Kush bhasin)in Delhi Court

MSD aviation did this because they're earning 2000$/month from each pilots salary, somewhere about 90 pilots are currently placed by MSD aviation,
That comes out to be around 1,80,000$/month which further comes to be around 1crore INR/month and that's nothing because they are charging 50,000$ for type-rating of B737 which actually costs around 20-25k , so the rest 25k is charged for the conversion of CPL into Indonesian CPL and all those fake promises which ar still pending since 2011 , they have sent around 10 batches till now ,
So they is earning around minimum 3,00,000$/month ,
So if a pilots sits in Jakarta doesn't fly for lion air because of his expired IR then there is a problem for MSD since MSD have leased out these pilots to lion and lion can only complaint to MSD about it , MSD therefore created fake sim check reports followed by bribe to DGCA officers who approves a renewal of IR without doing any verifications and if lion wants to discontinue the contract with MSD aviation because of the pilots who weren't flying then who will lose 3,00,000$/month :mad:
I hope you all are smart enough:ugh:
Well guys don't go through MSD aviation it doesn't matter in which ever airline he's placing you , don't go for it because at the end of the day it's not worth it:=

The criminal case proceeding will take place in few months , in which they will be prove guilty , apparently Mr Kush bhasin is so scared of the court case that he refused to be a part of MSD :D
But Mr sk thinks he is the smartest person living on the planet earth :mad:
In past few years he has already been involved in criminal activities
he's doesn't know how to get out of this one , from past 4 months he hasn't paid any salaries to pilots working under him. Is That what you pay for?:D

[Sky Dancer]

:ok:Well congratulations guys on being robbed.I really and truly feel sorry for all my comrades who have been duped by these scamsters.I hope the Indian government will wake up and take action.Unfortunately there were some clean people who tried but then the crooks finally prevailed.But from what I hear there are some guys in the market who are trying something like MSD aviation but this time they seem to be genuine guys.:ok:

[captjns]

The miscreants who subscribed to the scheme of the short cut to the cockpit entered the scheme with these eyes wide open. Forged logbooks!?! :yuk: Forged IR/LRs?!?:yuk: These pilots should have their licenses revoked with immediate effect and barred from further involvement in the cockpit, as they at not innocent bystanders in the P2F scheme. They should be ashamed.

No tea or sympathy for any of these creeps duped by MSD, Eagle, or Falcon looking to bypass the normal progression.

[jetjockey696]

With all false documents produced..they are only hurting themselves.. No company will ever hired a Indian pilot... sadly because no one can believe them.. "“Trust is like a mirror, you can fix it if it's broken, but you can still see the crack in that reflection".

In Indonesia no one is hiring indian pilots because they bring so much trouble with there license. Susi air, Sriwijaya etc doesn't hire them.

Capt Kush will be OK.. If he can buy his way back into Lion after flt ops department fired him, he went to talk with his close friend general affairs director Edward Sirait to let him back in, after much protest from Flt ops department. Edward Sirait and Rusdi and override the Chief and DFO decision in lion.

No problem.. Kushster will be BACKKK:ok:

[kwaiyai]

Ya he is like Count Dracula that Guy. Stake him in the Evening when
he come out from the coffin.

By the next Evening he will be back:confused:

[jetjockey696]

Kwaiyai... thats funny. in that case you... chop off his head....works in the movie Blade... :ok:

He has no where to go.. everyone knows "I know what you did in Jakarta"

[captjns]

Great:}! Another P2F scheme, just what the profession needs:yuk:. Beware kiddies, the majors will not higher P2F folks. You are wasting your parents money.:{

[de facto]

Excellent terms and conditions

For the Airline surely....

[kwaiyai]

Good one JJ, either that or maybe the Silver stake works.

T Fatty and the Allstars must be loving all this.

[nostep]

I heard thru the grape vine that today one of there not so young classic 734 had the rubber jungle drop after a rapid decom and had to return to Jakarta Hmmmmm you have to wonder about there engineering dept :D

[jetjockey696]

Kwaiyai... SILVER Stake.... sorry Sir.. but we LCC cant afford that. nope.. we got too taliban his pantat... off the with his head..haha

Yep... Uncle T and his lacky allstars are milking this... but still he cant break into the mass Indonesian market, only accounting 2% share in domestic market..even with Lion Air drama series.. with his complex premium ticket prices (AirAsia has 10 levels of pricing structure excluding special fares that may add in from time to time, they are L, U, T, Q, M, K, H, Y, V and X class, Each class is allocated with certain quota, start with L class, when the quota reaches, it will jump to next level, which will be more expensive and so on. Therefore, their airfare is dynamic, meaning the price you check in this minute, does not guarantee you can get the same airfare for the next minute, they are based on first come first serve basis.)and you pay for every service you decide to take..

There will be charges if I check in at the airport counter and there is flat rate for the first 15kg baggage etc....I dont see the Indonesian public doing that...not if you see the amount of luggage they carry.. Sadly Uncle T does not understand the mindset of people in Indonesia.. basically CHEAP sells tickets. NOT fancy adverts and complex charges..

[supreetsingh]

hi Guys,

I want to tell something serious about MSD. They are duping people now.they use to be good but now they have taken money from my husband and its been more than six months,they are not sending any pilot to lion air...if they commit anyone of you then please don't believe them..N about kassana he is the most $#@% person on this earth..we all hate him..he doesnt even pick the call..he only responds to new people nt his old clients...we will sue him..definately

[jetjockey696]

supreetsingh... Lion has stopped taking MSD pilots since January..it rumoured since nov/dec 2012 that they will stop taking MSD pilots.. Sad to hear about your husband situation.. best to get a good lawyer to get back your money.

Indonesia still has the 250hr on a B737 or A320 before getting hired.. now I believe MSD is concentrating on the A320 somewhere in Asia... you have been warned guys...

[captjns]

As the old saying goes Supreetsingh, "If its too good to be true...:=" Your husband had every opportunity to conduct his due diligence into these "Pay to Fly" schemes. As a matter of fact, you as a spouse had the same opportunity to conduct your due diligence too.

As they say... "Tuition comes at a high price.:{". Such as life.

I can only aver that I have no sympathy for those wishing to take a short cut to the right seat of a Boeing or Airbus.:mad:.

[dlcmdrx]

Can you go fly in Africa with a FAA license??

[captjns]

Depending on the country, carrier, and DGCA.