The cuts haven't reached the Herc Force yet then !

[Hardly Worth it]

Crabs are flying into Bardufoss on Fri to pick us up in a Herc. Crew of 10!!!!!. Accom offered here but they have already booked into the Bardufoss hotel. Will cost over 2 grand for the night. I hate Crabs

Just read this link on Facebook ! obviously not on the dist list when the news broke that we have a financial problem ! :=

[Blighter Pilot]

How does f**k Off sound - why don't you walk home then:mad:

And maybe read the thread about what the C130 Force are doing in Libya and the constant ops for the last decade in Afghan/Iraq and other theatres?

The crew don't book the accn - thats the tasking agency.

I presume that the accn you offered allowed personnel to get an undisturbed nights sleep in single man rooms?

Or do you want a tired C130 crew flying you out over the mountains?

And yes it's a bite because I'm sick of people flinging mud towards the RAF and the C130 Force.

Just because things aren't great with other units and Services doesn't mean you can slag off the RAF.

Financial Hardship - that's sacrificing everything your Service stands for so you can have floating cocktail parties on huge flaptops with no embarked carrier aviation.:mad:

[Dave Angel]

[QUOTE=Hardly Worth it;6283170]Crabs are flying into Bardufoss on Fri to pick us up in a Herc. Crew of 10!!!!!. Accom offered here but they have already booked into the Bardufoss hotel. Will cost over 2 grand for the night. I hate Crabs QUOTE]

Good name, you're not!

I take it you'll turn down the lift then.
Thought not :mad:

[jimmyc001]

There is accom, food and a bar here ready for them to use. Why spend over 2 grand when it doesn't need to be spent or could be spent on the frontline. Don't know where that is I suppose do you!

[akula67]

:rolleyes:Thought a herc crew was 3. 2 drivers and a bag carrier. you should wake up and smell the coffee as the axe will fall on you as well

[Grabbers]

But I do see the 'cuts' have found their way into the Navy.

RAF Types

Ignore the Trolls/'Senior' Service wallies. Please please please don't feed them. You'll keep them here so they won't be able to go and play with each other in dresses.

[heights good]

"Crabs are flying into Bardufoss on Fri to pick us up in a Herc. Crew of 10!!!!!. Accom offered here but they have already booked into the Bardufoss hotel. Will cost over 2 grand for the night. I hate Crabs"

Pilot - Aircrew jobs - RAF Careers (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/pilot.cfm)

That is all :E

HG

[Nibbled2DeathByDucks]

Due to the cuts, it's likely to be a training sortie. 2 student pilots + 1 instructor, 1 student loadie + 1 instructor, 1 ground engineer (for when Albert gives up the ghost), 2 movers and 2 ATSy coppers for pax processing. Total of 10.
If you don't want to be carried by students, as previous posters have said, WALK! :mad:

[heights good]

"Crabs are flying into Bardufoss on Fri to pick us up in a Herc. Crew of 10!!!!!. Accom offered here but they have already booked into the Bardufoss hotel. Will cost over 2 grand for the night. I hate Crabs"

Pilot - Aircrew jobs - RAF Careers (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/pilot.cfm)

That is all :E

HG

[P-M-G]

For a minute there I thought I'd erroneously logged into AArse - no my mistake! Let's see if we can set a new record for a thread being taken down. You've not just missed out redundancy have you or perhaps canx a run ashore in the med in your floating, soon to be decommissioned gin palace whilst the skirmish in Libya develops? I hate WAFUs.

[c130jtechie]

Hardly Worth It

You're name says it all, unbelievable post, as mentioned have you seen what the crews did last weekend and what they are currently doing elsewhere and have done in the past including the tragic loss of one of our aircraft.

[jimmyc001]

Straight to the emergency banter. Hit a nerve I can tell. The truth hurts fella. You need to remember you are a serviceman in the Armed Forces like the Navy and Army. Don't like service accom/life then go and fly a civvy jet. Better still take redundancy and hand the reins to either of the other services who will take pride in the job and actually get airborne thinking about picking up troops rather than hotels and subs. In 23 years I have only been on 3 flights that have taken off on time. That says it all. THINK OF THE BLOKES ON THE GROUND DOING THE REAL JOB AND PAYING FOR IT.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

Norway, deary me !

OMG it could be worse for you, after all we could be watching you sail around the Caribbean getting pissed and sunning yourself meanwhile trying to look gutted when the fridges break and you have to spend 5 days on a Carib island on channel 5 couldnt we ?

[jimmyc001]

By the way, ground tours of Ireland, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan so don't tell me where the frontline is. Lost friends in 3 of those places. Not Navy.

[Grabbers]

Jimmy

Is it 'angry week'? My lass gets just like you once a month.

[draken55]

"I hate Crabs"

"Ignore the Trolls/'Senior' Service wallies. Please please please don't feed them. You'll keep them here so they won't be able to go and play with each other in dresses."

"I hate WAFU's"

"THINK OF THE BLOKES ON THE GROUND DOING THE REAL JOB AND PAYING FOR IT."

God help us all:mad:

[snaggletooth]

Mod's, please do the decent thing.

[c130jtechie]

Jimmycoo1

Remind everyone, who's helicopters go in with the brave MERT teams and recover casualties in the current and past theatres. Who's aircraft do re-supply in very difficult conditions. Maybe worth thinking before speaking

[Talk Reaction]

Lets be serious. There is no reason that this should be occurring. 10 people in a hotel when accommodation is offered is criminal. Get off your high horse about single rooms - things have changed, aircrew are getting perfectly good sleep 4 or more to a room.

Some of the attitudes on show here make it unsurprising what our army colleagues thinks of us. Grow up, one team, stop looking out for ourselves at the expense of reality.
:ugh:

[Biggus]

Of course a considerable amount more than £2,000 could have been saved, for the front line, if the Exercise (I am assuming it is an Exercise and Bardufoss isn't full of Libyans, AQ, or Brits requiring evacuation) had been cancelled in the first place.... :ok:





Oh yes, the operating cost of Typhoon has been quoted as £80,000 an hour - get 1 Typhoon pilot to do one less circuit at the end of a sortie and you save about £6,000! Simples!!!

What are the operating costs of a Type 45 per day, a air defence Destroyer without any air defence missiles...

How much does it cost to run a challenger tank for a day......


People in glass houses..........

[jim2673]

Hardly Worth it

Perhaps,instead of looking stupid, you will take time to explain hiow long you have been 69 degrees North and how much LSA and LOA you have trousered. Just how good is RNOAF Bardufoss with cheap beer on tap in milliways today?

Give us a clue as to your daily rate of LOA

Perhaps you would like to explain why being in Norg results in a bigger pay packet than is paid to those in Kaf or Bastion and how you have been so disadvantged.

Base party or Sqdn?......let us all know as you need shaming!...I'm intrigued having done Winters in 94/95/96/98/01/02 with both 46&45 @ Bardufoss, Fagerness & Eveness.

[xenolith]

Get off your high horse about single rooms - things have changed,

Some things have changed but I dont think that the rules for RAF Aircrew accommodation have. Its a peace time route, the crew would be foolish to go against SOPs unless there was a very good reason. The SI test applies.

[onthebumline]

"I presume that the accn you offered allowed personnel to get an undisturbed nights sleep in single man rooms?

Or do you want a tired C130 crew flying you out over the mountains?"

To be fair, it is exactly the same accomodation that rotary crews use for several months every single winter and achieve crew rest period in order to go flying IN ont OVER the mountains every single day and night of the training period.

Perhaps flying a C130 from one full facilities civvy airfield to LYN is harder then flying loads in recirculating snow at night...............I wouldn't know as I have never done the former.

[xenolith]

Unless the C130 crew are a designated part of and named on the ex op order your point does not apply; the crew would be in sub standard accommodation and therefore breaking the rules. This really is an AT bashing non thread.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Grow up, one team, stop looking out for ourselves at the expense of reality.

Right, and stop learning the fatigue lessons learned from 100yrs of air transport and start risking putting jets and their loads into a hilllside. I'm sure the 'one team' would seriously start asking questions as and when that happened:mad:

It's a peacetime Ex. Grow up. The term "air-worthiness" covers a lot more than the just the techie world these days!

[spinstallaeropfl]

The way morale is going, this could develop into a real mud-slinger. Op Order or not there's accom available - get on and use it and stop the pathetic line-in-the-sand we need proper crew rest hotac (and bar). I do sometimes wonder how 2 Gp crews can support such obvious 'grind' that is generated between the services when this stuff is exposed and for no real reason.

[291paspine]

Jimmy,

Wind your neck in. Your hardly in a service which can claim its anymore deserving of applause then any of the other services! Tell me how have you enjoyed your ski trip up norf?

Im hoping your not too spineless to tell your opinions to the crew when they arrive on friday, Or will you just do as your told and be thankful when you are returned to the UK?

Jimmy if you actually knew why this was the case maybe you wouldnt be embarrassing yourself and your service by writing such tosh!

[Talk Reaction]

xenolith

you're quite right the rules haven't changed and STILL don't say anything about single rooms, just uninterupted rest. Many aircrew with far more demanding jobs get by living in multiple bunked rooms on various shifts or even, god forbid, tents!

Stop being sanctimonious, using phrases like sub-standard rooms :mad:

We were all up in arms about MPs taking the system for a ride, what do you think stories like the one at the start of this thread sound like.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Many aircrew with far more demanding jobs get by living in multiple bunked rooms on various shifts or even, god forbid, tents!

Yes...and so do Herc and other AT crews when required. If this is a trg trip then it'll be one of precious few for them! I'd suggest the trg T&S budget is brimming as they haven't had much chance to use it lately...you'd be more worried if you knew the true extent of the lack of continuity and training at the moment than to bother with this non-thread:ugh:

Are you telling me you haven't ever seen a spend in the last month of the financial year?

[forget]

Your hardly in a service which can claim its

291paspine. Sort out your atrocious spelling. It makes a post difficult to read.

[3 bladed beast]

'' Hardly worth it'' - do try not to complain too loudly on the aircraft, i'm sure there's a lovely butty box waiting for you on your comfortable 5 hour trip home.

:ok:

[291paspine]

291paspine. Sort out your atrocious spelling. It makes a post difficult to read.

Forget,

Sort your life out and focus on the topic of this thread rather than your self imposed role as the S&G Police.

[3 bladed beast]

291Paspine, terrible grammar and spelling aside (!) does make a valid point.

I wonder if the complainers will approach the captain and make their views known???

After all, it will be solely his fault that the accommodation was booked for the crew by travel cell ( or Ascot Ops, or Dscom, seeing as it's their task).

:ugh:

[EdSett100]

The benchmark to be used in this non-operational case is the standard of public accommodation that would be used back at base. If the crew had to be accommodated at/close to Lyneham overnight, they sure as hell should not be sent to the Wiltshire Hotel , unless the station could not accomodate them.

So, does the service accm at Bardufoss meet the standards of the messes and barracks at Lyneham? From what I remember of the Sgts Mess, its not difficult to meet.

Next question: can the capt (or his Flt Cdr) claim that he needs to keep all of his crew co-located (same building) overnight?) Difficult to answer yes with a structured transop that everybody is briefed on. Mobile phones now obviate the need to keep the crew together.

I think it is very difficult for anyone to justify hotac when acceptable service accm close to the airfield is available.

Clearly the crews do not make the decisions at the planning stage. As was always the case when I was an Ascoteer, someone else booked the hotel, the hire cars and the imprest well within the bounds of Gp Orders, to ensure that they could not be brought to book when the crew complained of fatigue. I suggest the Ops staff (at Gp?) should review their methods. "we always do it this way, because its easy (1 phone call to hotac)" is no longer good enough. Its certainly indefensible, regardless of any reference to finances.

Regards
Ed

[althenick]

Where to begin...

Well 1st off you all sound like a bunch of phuquing children who have had their toys taken off them - MAN UP THE LOT O' YER!

To the Poster of this thread "Hardly worth it"
- Its alright to have an opinion and even hate crabs, I dont hate them, I just feel that they have their own agenda like the other 2 services. And BTW Opinons are like ar5sh0les - everyones got one.

To the winging (mainly) Light blue - Yes you need rest somewhere quiet for undisturbed sleep. How about taking tent to the other end of the Airfield where there is no Bar or nightlife to disturb you. I know I'd feel a lot safer on Crab AT if I'd known the crew hadn't been getting "Relaxed as newts" the night before. And you wouldn't come in for quite as much attention from people like H_O_W

Sorry for the rant but I feel for you all - whatever coulour of uniform you wear but acting like a bunch of bl00dy drama queens is not going to help. :ugh:

[3 bladed beast]

You mis spelt phuquing!!!

:O

[cessnapete]

Do RAF pilots need less rest than airline crews, if so could some one tell me why?
AT crews on the Herrick are flying a regular roster/rest pattern that would not be allowable in a civilian operation. Their own medical people have said that in a recent report that the operation does not provide adequate rest after dificult operational consecutive night sectors.
It seems a macho thing amongst some on PPrune that service crews are different, although flying RAF 'airliners' in mainly civil airspace.
Just because you are in the Services does not mean you have to live in a tent in the desert when proper facilites are available elsewhere.

[althenick]

You mis spelt phuquing!!!

Bu88er! - your right! ;)

[minigundiplomat]

Can't really be bothered entering into this one - I don't really care!

However, FWIW I have seen large scale waste and largesse from all 3 of the services over the years, including quite recently. Whether this is right or wrong, I care not, but our sister services do need to get their own houses in order before they start casting the first stone.

[Clearedtoroll]

I am not aircrew, I have never worked on the Herc Force. But pretty much everyone on here has had experience of the good bits of Service life, and everyone has had some rough bits as well. Some people will always like to have a willy-waving competition about whose had it the hardest.

It is a very reasonable point that if there is adequate accomm available, why not use it to save money. However, I think there comes a point when the race to the bottom in terms of allowances (and banter :}) becomes a bit silly. We could all start staying in YHA hostels, and it might help in PR11. But the money saved won't get spent on new kit, it'll end up being taken as a saving next year and spent on social security payments for chavs. So there's a balance: sure, it would be crass to stay in a 5 star hotel if there is adequate accomm next door... But equally putting a flight crew in the fairly average 3 star Bardufoss Hotel for a night is not automatically outrageous, especially as no one except the person who did the accomm plot really knows the score. This week they might stay in an average hotel, next week they might get shot at.

Incidentally, a quick check of hotels.com would show that the Bardufoss Hotel costs less than half the £200 a night some seem to think it costs...

PS, what are you doing in Bardufoss that you couldn't be doing in Otterburn? :E

[BEagle]

What a ridiculous thread this is. Accommodation will have been detailed in the TRANSOP (or whatever it's called these days) - end of. As an aside, the hotel will be charging a very good 'government rate' rather than the advertised room price.

I liked the story of some dear old truckie route queen. When asked by some muddy oaf why the crew was staying overnight in a 4-star hotel, he replied "My dear chap, it's really quite simple. There just aren't any 5-star hotels in this part of the world".

As the Jaguar boss at one middle east location once remarked to his pongo colleague, after turning down the army's offer of some wretched tent in Dhahran, "Any idiot can be uncomfortable - as you've just confirmed!".

Anyway, good luck to the Herc mates - if they've managed to get a decent trip to somewhere relatively pleasant for once, then they've richly deserved it.

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

PS, what are you doing in Bardufoss that you couldn't be doing in Otterburn?

Claiming rates/LOA?

CWD

[Sunfish]

Kindly consider the cost of a tired crew making a fatal mistake and the "insurance" provided by first class quarters is rather cheap.

What's a Herc worth these days? Let alone the passengers.

To be fair, years ago I made the same mistake in being outraged when Helicopter pilots detached to our battalion politely declined our offer of Mess accommodation (and refreshments we would have tried to press on them) in favour of a quiet night at a local motel.

[Sgt.Slabber]

BEagle,

:ok:

[Wizzard]

To be fair, years ago I made the same mistake in being outraged when Helicopter pilots detached to our battalion politely declined our offer of Mess accommodation (and refreshments we would have tried to press on them) in favour of a quiet night at a local motel.

Sunfish, they were obviously not real helicopter pilots:=

[Two's in]

Hardly Worth it,

Seldom have I seen such effective trolling on a forum. Sixty words in 3 lines and you have almost managed to get a Jihad out on you. I hope you have plenty of Scrumpy to drink while watching the self-flagellation take place, or is it just Moose's Milk until you get back? Just pray the C-130 crew don't recognise you until you get back to Blighty.

[rathebelucky]

SCRAP! SCRAP! SCRAP! I feel like I am back in the playground again, ah, for those days gone by.

This is ace, I haven't had this much fun since the last time I was baby seal clubbing. Get it all off your chest lads. I really don't want to have to start reading about dull stuff like Lyneham closing or LOA getting cut again, this is much more entertaining.

I'm off to watch some naked mud wrestling now but keep up the good work lads.:E

[glug]

Surely this spat comes down to the basic glossary of terms?
Unnecessary waste of money - When someone else gets something better/more fun/more comfortable than you have.
Required and central part of Terms and Conditions of service - When you get something better/more fun/more comfortable than someone else.

[just another jocky]

Pathetic. We are in the worst state as armed forces that any of us can remember and we start in-fighting. Well done!

Mods...if this goes on, could it be put quietly to sleep, as it surely deserves.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

In my 37 years to date I am not sure I can recall one single person, I am sure others on here can but I cannot think of 1 person I knew that left the RAF to join the Navy or the Army.

Conversely I can recall quite a few folk I have met that had jumped ship/tank for the more civilised and grown up life that the RAF offer.

For some being cold wet and uncomfortable is a way of life and not something that is only practiced in anticipation of being on Ops.

As someone else said any bloody idiot can be uncomfortable but the Army and the Navy bods in the main do not choose to be uncomfy on these sort of exercises they do so because the brass tell them that's how it is.

The OP should not be internet bitch slapping the RAF for having the cheek to look after the interests of some of it's people, he/she should be bleating to his bosses as to why they are living in ****e when there is no real need to do so.

[291paspine]

Hardly Worth it,

Seldom have I seen such effective trolling on a forum. Sixty words in 3 lines and you have almost managed to get a Jihad out on you. I hope you have plenty of Scrumpy to drink while watching the self-flagellation take place, or is it just Moose's Milk until you get back? Just pray the C-130 crew don't recognise you until you get back to Blighty.

Don't worry, I have a feeling the Herc crew may already be very aware of their whinging senior service passengers on Friday night!

[Avionker]

Check in, don't dig in! :ok:

[just another jocky]

Don't worry, I have a feeling the Herc crew may already be very aware of their whinging senior service passengers on Friday night!

So tell me: how do you ensure that all the pax spend the whole trip puking up? :E

[Willard Whyte]

There are no certainties, but certainly ways and means.

[Brian 48nav]

Come on guys,cool it! You are all servicemen doing a fantastic job.

Have you heard of 'divide and rule'? The politicos can get away with murder while they see the same old inter-service rants. If the services ,particularly those at the top, had presented a united front maybe there would have been less cuts over the years.

We had exactly the same scenario in my second career, ATC with CAA/NATS, each unit hating the others while management smile and offer derisory pay increases - see ATC Issues threads.

[dalek]

In my time in the Air Force I was Detachment Coordinator and Imprest holder many times.
There is a major problem with putting crews in simple hotels and B&B's.
The user normally likes the detachment crew to be fully flexible and able to operate short notice.
Try calling a crew at 10pm saying you want them to start work in two hours with say 45 pax. The imprest is locked in the safe until morning, the aircraft water flasks are empty and there are no rations for a long working day.
Just like with the Hotac there are GASO's which state how much food and water must be carried for the task.
Big 24 hr manned hotel. All the problems go away.

[Bert Angel]

Guys, stop all this trivial ranting when you don't know the facts.

From the horse's mouth (so to speak!):

Accommodation on base was requested but we were told it was all fully booked. Hotac then arranged, & we were then told accommodation on base was available. Cancelling the Hotac at short notice would have resulted in having to pay for the rooms anyway, so that's where the crew are staying.

No big scandalous waste of taxpayer's money, no story frankly.

To the original poster: you may hate 'the crabs' who are coming to pick you up, but posting this nonsense leads all of HM Forces into disrepute. Stop it.

[Clockwork Mouse]

HWi
Outstanding effort mate! Shake the tree and see what falls out of it! A very diverting and revealing thread.

[Winchweight]

I suspect that HWI has been away from his Mummy too long and is fed up with being "in the barrel" every night for the amusement of his fishy cohorts.

And as they say "any fool can be uncomfortable"!

[startermotor]

I read this thread and thought "How pathetic". I was just about to text my very good friend, who happens to be on the crew and let him know. Then I decided against it. DAMN I pressed send. OH WELL

[Army Mover]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It

:{

[Grabbers]

I reckon a mover is probably at the root of all this. :E

[SVK]

Trois, Trois, (non-Trois) Trois, Trois, (non-Trois), Trois on the "Stop Its!"

But I agree entirely, this thread needs to die a death.

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

while sleeping in a ****ty tent at minus 20 with 8 snoring and farting engineers either side of them.



I've got to take acceptation to that, I've never snored while on det! :ok:

CWD

[Grabbers]

So tell me: how do you ensure that all the pax spend the whole trip puking up'

Just let them read some of the drivel on this thread in 'their name'. Sick to the stomach, sick to the stomach with shame. :{

[Top Bunk Tester]

Sir's, Ma'am's, Ladies & Gents

Your transport this evening from Bardufoss to Lyneham has been cancelled due to lack of funding/interest. You will now be transferred by coach to the nearest ferry terminal, where your unit will be expected to cough up for the crossing.

Don't have a go at the AT fleet, just because the're playing the game better than you are. They put more hours in, in more sh1t holes than you do, be grateful they are coming to get you and STFU :ugh:

[Army Mover]

I reckon a mover is probably at the root of all this.

Could well be right, but it would have been a blue one if it was. :E

In my day, the Transop for the AMF and RM winter exercises that authorised whatever (like accom, extra crew composition etc) was issued at the start of the exercise before Xmas leave etc and the return flight details issued as an addendum a few months later. That being the case, I can well believe that at the time the original issue, that no host accomodation would have been able to be confirmed, it was just to far down the line.

As someone who used to be sat in the tent at the end of runway, I can sympathise, but I know there is a lot more to it than just the Crabs are in the hotel again.

[high spirits]

HWI,
I would think very seriously about withdrawing this thread and apologising if I were you. If you have used the (subsidised free) WIFI at Bardufoss then you are very traceable. You might also need a second Herc to carry home your wallet with all those ludicrously high rates that you have ponced out of the system whilst staying in Norway and drinking in the bar at £1 per tin with free food and accn. I am ashamed to serve under the same (Joint) Command as you, you do your service no favours with posts like this.....

[BEagle]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It

That sounds like a girl I once...'knew' :E! Except that the 'Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh' normally followed the 'Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It'.....:ok:

Your transport this evening from Bardufoss to Lyneham has been cancelled due to lack of funding/interest. You will now be transferred by coach to the nearest ferry terminal, where your unit will be expected to cough up for the crossing.

And since you aren't used to living in civilised accommodation, you won't be in cabins; instead you will be required to erect (or whatever you do with them) your tents (whatever those are) on the open deck. A trough of stew will be provided for dinner; it will be refilled with porridge for breakfast. If you need to attend to the call of nature, there's the lee rail. If your need is more urgent, a bucket may be requested. In the unlikely event that you wish to have a wash, the bucket may be lowered into the sea using the rope provided. It is recommended that you do this before using the bucket for any alternative purpose.

[10enggone]

BEagle :ok:

As has been said it"s all about looking after your own troops better, if all 3services were aligned to the best scenario damn sure HWI would have bothered getting jis cold fingers to walk across the keyboard.

Peace dudes

[WhoAreYa]

lmfao, green eyed monster at work here.

Like BE said, any fool can live in a tent.

Get over it boys and girls, if the herc crew can get some decent accom for the night then fair play to them.

[Neptunus Rex]

Back in 1970 there was a thee-crew Shack detachment (airborne SAR cover for Prince Charles) to the Caribbean and Mexico from Puckoon International Field. Our accountants burned the midnight oil and all thay could come up with was HOTAC with all meals on the imprest and about a quid a day in LOA. Then, the day before departure, the support Herc arrived. I took the co-pilot for a coffee and he was bragging about the allowances. HOTAC accommodation + two thirds of a rate one. Huge dosh.

I asked him for the reference, which he gladly gave me. As Maritime was newly part of Strike Command, the rules seemed to apply to us. I drafted a Signal Message, the Boss signed it and three hours later we got approval. Thanks Herc mates, we were all in the same Air Force after all! We did enjoy Bermuda, Nassau and Acapulco.

[BEagle]

Neptunus Rex, how often that sort of thing went on back then!

Having done a tour on the Tin Triangle and armed only with a copy of Strike Command accounting instructions - plus the plea "Do NOT put any booze on the bill!" - I once did some accounting stuff for our F-4 detachment which had been royally screwed by the host station. When we finally flew back to Wattisham, I gave them the forms to sign and said "Shut up and do what I say!"....

They all received a reasonable sum in unclaimed a££owances, having been completely unaware of their entitlement.

Yes, they took the pi$$ with some banter. But I was rather annoyed that not one of them ever said thanks....:rolleyes:

[airborne_artist]

lmfao, green eyed monster at work here.

Like BE said, any fool can live in a tent.

Get over it boys and girls, if the herc crew can get some decent accom for the night then fair play to them.

One of those "should have worked harder at school" moments.

Still when the RAF is disbanded and AT and SH go to the AAC, HOTAC will be a distant memory :ok:

Living in tents is highly over-rated, anyway. Too many rules when you are in a camp. Bashas rule - and no-one shouts at you, nor do you have to salute on the way to eat :E

[JFZ90]

So, given its Friday (day of the flight?)

1. has the flight occurred yet?
2. were the PAX treated in a manner consistent with HWIs rant?

[Kengineer-130]

And here we have a perfect example of why the forces are crumbling. The politicians must be absolutly loving the way all 3 services bitch,moan and infight about petty issues, trying to score cheap points, and fighting to keep capability by claiming the other services don't need x..

The defence review handled itself, watching the "top brasses" falling over each other to try and belittle & degrade the other was exactly what the government wanted. They are playing you off against each other, watching you pull yourselves down to the lowest common denominator!!

If you are too stupid to see WHY the crew should get a decent standard of accomodation, I suggest you do a bit of reading about fatigue & air law.

On the other point, perhaps if the forces recognised & respected each other & showed some co-operation & solidarity, we might not be in the mess we are now. Glad I'm out in 6 weeks, it's getting embarrasing now:ugh:

[Dengue_Dude]

K Eng

I left in 94 and haven't yet wished I hadn't . . . and yes, it does get petty doesn't it?

[Not Long Here]

Beagle

That sounds like a girl I once...'knew' http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif! Except that the 'Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh' normally followed the 'Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It, Stop It'.....

Isn't that rape.

[BEagle]

In an antipodean country where "Brace yourself" is considered foreplay, quite possibly it would be....

[TOPBUNKER]

"
The cuts haven't reached the Herc Force yet then !
Crabs are flying into Bardufoss on Fri to pick us up in a Herc. Crew of 10!!!!!. Accom offered here but they have already booked into the Bardufoss hotel. Will cost over 2 grand for the night. I hate Crabs

Just read this link on FacePPRuNe ! obviously not on the dist list when the news broke that we have a financial problem ! :="

So, was it £2000 plus?
Was usable accom' refused?
And who gives a toss?
Personally, I suspect that the only truth in the original post was that the poster fosters and encourages a large degree of jealousy of those who were about to take him home from his holiday on the piste.

[flipster]

All very sad to see the 'willy waving'; as others have said, it does no-one any favours and just makes those who 'snipe' appear foolish.

No matter what the cost, the training value of operating in/out Norway will be worth double, or even triple, any HOTAC bill (for very average accn at low rates). Herc guys get lots of time in tents in sh!tty parts of the world -perhaps more than most, so why don't we cut 'em a break?

Flying IFR in Norway is not the same as a visual 'milk-run' on Salisbury plain, Otterburn or anywhere else for that matter - it will bite you on the @rse incredibly quickly and without bags of extra pre-planning, you can very easily make a large smoking hole in the cumulo-granite with lots of burnt bodies! Perhaps HWI was not aware of this, as one could have been his/hers? It is arguable that, apart from the obvious weather difference, ops in Norway have a few skills that are transferrable to AFG - 'cold and white' can be more tricky than 'hot and high'.

Furthermore, Norwegian airfields are almost unique in N Europe (a bit like Innsbruck and Chambery, only worse) and is not somewhere AT crews have gone much in recent times (I was complaining of a lack of such training as far back as 2000/1). It is well worth the gov't expense for the crews to maintain their professional standards and experience of such marginal operations. Once upon a time, the beancounters at Gp would have prevented a 'double crew' on the basis of T&S budget for the ex but now, thank the Lord, they should be applauded for allowing more crews experience of 'cold and white' conditions - after all, that is why everyone else is there in the first place. Like accountants, some people seem to know the 'cost of everything but the value of nothing'!!

Hotac and rest rules for peacetime ex's exist for very simple reasons - safety and standardisation - that of the crew, pax and other aircraft who share the airways with RAF AT and is based on UK MoD AT policy. End of! If the ac was a J model, then they have much better performance than the old K but the same rules apply - you need 100% focus and awareness; BDU is not somewhere for the faint hearted. Perhaps those who don't understand the complexities of flying large multi-engine ac safely in such places should keep their thoughts and vitriol to themselves?

Hope the boys and girls enjoyed the experience of somewhere NOT hot and dusty? :ok::ok:

As a taxpayer and pilot, I am more than happy with the value that the Herc crews & pilots will get when experiencing Noggie weather, staying in an average hotel for one night and getting decent rest before flying back from BDU - even if they are carrying some people who are 'hardly worth it'.:ugh:

flipster

[cazatou]

Perhaps the next Exercise could be held at Sonderstromfjord in, say, February - that really would give them something to moan about.

[ghostnav]

I do not see a reason why the Mods should stop this thread. It shows, sadly, the views of one maybe two rather narrow minded people we have to call our compatriots!

As for the accommodation issue, in the current climate, there is no way this would have been approved unless it was needed for the rules. The comparison between Norway and any Op is ridiculous - the rules are different to meet legislation.

So to johnny whatshisface, shut-up and grow up - if you are able to of course!

[back end o' the bus]

A most eloquent and concise post as always!
All AT crews ( subject to aircraft and weather limitations ) work their @rses off!! doing long and anti social hrs, twice that of any REMF Admin Bluntie , routinely 16-18 CDD's!!!!
So cut the boys some slack, if they manage to get a trip that is not to a sandy destination and can gain some valuable experience...good on em!!
The RAF has been extremey overstretched for years now, and one trip to Norway gets this much attention!!
Whoever has an issue.... should do the prep, selection, training, grnd and air cats / int briefs, put on the CBA , helmets and do all the other b***** and man up and try to achieve the constant standard that these AT crews constantly provide!!!! :D
Nuff said:ok:

[dalek]

Just because there is a war on does not mean that all essential training must cease.
In the good old days, before Gulf War One, when we still had around 60 working Hercs, training could be done in dedicated aircraft.
Now every working beast could be used ten times over.
You cannot send large training crews to the sand because every bit of decent real estate is kept, quite rightly, for the operating crews in theatre.
So the odd trip to Norway, Canada etc is always going to be used for "essential" training.
Crews do not pick their own HOTAC from the local AA guide. The tasking authority will pick it using GASO's as a guide.
And you can bet your sweet bippy, that in this day and age, they won't spend more than is absolutely essential

[ukcds]

been on the herc fleet for many years now lived in some wonderful hotels, do I consider myself fortunate, yes i do , I've also lived on base on airfields in tents and slept in Albert on many occasions. I've also had passengers in the same hotels same on base accommodation same tents and even down the back of Albert for a cosy night or 2. And in previous employment had the pleasure of holes in the ground. It would be nice if you have a complaint about accommodation issues to have the guts to come and say it to our faces instead of on a web site people like you the military can do without hope redundancy terms suit you.

[neilmac]

Cant believe what drivel has gone before! Questioning my politicians!

[Tea White Zero]

How to get universally hated in one quick button press!:D

Even if you were intending to troll, bet you didn't think it would come round like this? so naive.

Just shows how little you know about the ways of the military and that of the AT fleet:

Of course the Herc crews don't individually book their hotels, fuel, handling, deice etc that is part of the tasking.

If it were the case, then why did YOU decide to go to Norway and spend 100s of £1000s on an ex?....... of course YOU didn't, you were tasked to. Just as they were tasked to come and get your sorry ass back to the UK.

As it is Norway in winter, and Bardufoss which has some very challenging approaches and departures, I would not be surprised if it was a double crew to get the trg. We used to have to get screened into Norway in winter until too many cuts, too much deployed tasking and not enough trg came our way.

If you had any intellect and understanding of the bigger picture, you would understand how all 3 services are badly hurting - and that includes the crabs as well as the RN and Royals. Just read the SDSR - you can read can't you?

Very disappointing thread. And whilst this is a rumour network, this is not rumourous, it is venomous. Moderators please delete.

Hardly - if you want a really uncomfortable trip back to the UK on your AT flight, I dare you to say this in person to the crew! If fact in the words of Pulf Fiction "I double dare you - MF!" mmmm, I thought not! Better just bleat on an anonymous forum that actually man-up. Muppet:ugh:

Hope the Boyz enjoyed one of the very few non-deployment stops around these days. Keep on truckin'. TWZ:ok:

[MaroonMan4]

What an awful thread.....so very sad.

I hope that the current HMG, MOD and senior officers are aware of the years of Jointery, forged over many campaigns (particularly in the last 20 years) that are now being undone in the period of under a year (post SDSR in Oct 10).

The speed and lack of coherence of the so called strategic review, the ambiguity and uncertainty in the immediate aftermath, the frustration at the short sightedness of the political 'elite' when the world remains unstable, the threat of significant job losses, pension and payreductions , the following on from a SDSR straight into a major Planning Round and the failure of any decision making all results in the very caustic and unnecessary posts that we have sadly seen in this thread.

What is being missed is the human element, the people in all this - and the current environment is making forces personnel do, say and act in some extremely unusual ways because they/we are experiencing some extremely unusual pressure at the moment.

It does not forgive this post and the ensuing descent, but I can see a possible explanation.

[Frazzled]

Good to see the RAF herc crews cop as much flak as we do down under in regard to accommodation standards.:rolleyes:

Hardly worth it - face it mate you ticked the wrong box at recruiting so just live with it.

Remember:

"the army sleep under the stars, the navy navigates by the stars and the air force pick their hotels by the stars.":rolleyes:

Frazzled:ugh:

[baggymike]

Divide and conquer. That's what all this sniping leads to.
A pretty weak argument really. I reckon it's just an excuse for Hardly Worth It to do some RAF bashing. Bash away fella, water off a duck's back. I would argue back but fear even the best responses would struggle to break down your prejudice.

[Clockwork Mouse]

It looks as though this thread is finally running out of steam. At the beginning I was vastly amused by it. The naughty originator tossed his bait into the waters of Prune and sat back to watch the result. I am certain he was not disappointed by the feeding frenzy that ensued. So what was it really all about? Why the fuss?

A naval aviator (I presume), at the end of a training deployment in North Norway, posted a brief message and unleashed jihad! He clearly struck a sensitive nerve. So what inflammatory things did he actually say, in what some light blue jihadis have called his “rant”, which could have justified unleashing all this venom?

“Crabs are flying into Bardufoss on Fri to pick us up in a Herc”. This is presumably correct and fairly uncontroversial. Couldn’t be that.

“Crew of 10!!!!!”. No reason to doubt its veracity and, according to the general opinion on this thread, fully justifiable. A bit over heavy on the exclamation marks though, which could perhaps ruffle the odd sensitive feather.

“Accom offered here but they have already booked into the Bardufoss hotel”. Seems to be factually correct and, according to the general opinion on this thread, fully justifiable. I suppose that merely drawing attention to the favourable ATF accommodation arrangements by a member of another service coming off exercise is mildly divisive and controversial, but surely nothing unusual or serious.

“Will cost over 2 grand for the night”. Actual amount is questionable, though some significant expense was clearly incurred. This was a mite tactless of the poster.

“I hate Crabs”. Ah, this could be it! Hang on though. A personal opinion, rude and over the top, but almost certainly tongue firmly in cheek and certainly no worse than the usual derogatory “banter” which is strongly defended by most of the ruder posters on Prune when their own excesses are challenged.

So what was it in the above that prompted 93 posts of fatwah and outraged cries to the mods to remove it? Damned if I know.

My initial amusement at the spectacular over-reaction of our crab friends soon evaporated and has left me feeling rather sad. Has the morale of the RAF fallen so low that they have lost any reasonable sense of perspective and have become so paranoid and defensive that the slightest hint of criticism sets them off into a gigantic bate? If so it is indeed tragic.

Though a Pongo, I am a great admirer of the RAF and indeed number more than one in my immediate family. I actually think that, as a service, the RAF chain of command is handling the current capability cuts and redundancies rather well in the circumstances and, when the national financial crisis has been resolved in five or so years, they will be seen to have ended up relatively well off in terms of modern resources and capabilities compared to the other services. However, I deplore the cynical, abrasive, selfish, disloyal, often rather desperate bleatings that are becoming the norm from individual crabs on Prune. You are better than that.

Keep your nerve chaps. Keep your sense of proportion. Above all, keep your sense of humour. We love you really!

[Two's in]

Just shows what a first class tosser he is.

...and some say the art of literary sparring is dead and gone.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Come on chaps! Three to go for the ton!

[dalek]

Help you out CM. Good post. 98

[Herc-u-lease]

Storm in a teacup. typical of the PPrune outrage bus. although HWI got the fish he was hoping to catch. 99

[jim2673]

Could be a RM Winch weight.......you know the sort :ugh:struggling to add up his LOA & LSA, socks off and abacus out.

[xenolith]

During my 20 odd years on RAF SH it was always the AAC that dripped on, incessantly, about the the RAFs hotel culture even when we were colocated with them! Never heard anything from the Navy though, strange that they should start now. Sign of the times I guess.

[airpolice]

the army sleep under the stars, the navy navigates by the stars and the air force pick their hotels by the stars


A fantastic piece of Banter, long overdue in this thread.

[viz]

Will anyone be watching 'Royal Navy Caribbean Patrol' tonight Channel 5 at 8pm?

Just wondered. :hmm:

[Green Flash]

Will anyone be watching 'Royal Navy Caribbean Patrol' tonight Channel 5 at 8pm?

Just wondered.


Hang on, I'll just check with Reception if C5 is part of the room package .....

[291paspine]

Will anyone be watching 'Royal Navy Caribbean Patrol' tonight Channel 5 at 8pm?

Just wondered

Summed up, the Navy floats around on their boat's whinging about how the Navy always get the raw deal, and towards the end the boat either crashes into a known rock or the crew get their I-Pods stolen and cry about it in the following episode!

[oldgrubber]

Many years ago we were at sea with Wrens on board for the first time. The Zoomies were conducting a high power ground run (aft flight deck spot) at silly o clock at night and we ( the pingers) were flying around the clock as usual.
For those not familiar with the wardroom sleeping arrangements on the CVSs, the junior officers slept on 2 deck at the stern of the ship, right below the flight deck. After the Harrier had been running for a while, I saw my Seaking off and went in just as the Harrier shut down. The lads were all laughing about a young Wren officer who had appeared in the ACR flat (line office area) dressed in fluffy slippers and dressing gown asking if we could turn off the noisy jet because she couldn’t sleep.
This apparently had been relayed to the Senior Rate in the cockpit who shut down to come and have a look/laugh.
Needless to say, they gave her enough time to walk back to the cabin area, say prayers and jump into bed before starting up again and I’m sure there was a lot more nozzle waggling than usual.
I have no axe to grind either way about hotels etc and despite apparently being navy the thread starter doesn't speak for me, but here’s an idea, close this silly thread and lets keep it polite.

Cheers (dark blue)

[minigundiplomat]

Will anyone be watching 'Royal Navy Caribbean Patrol' tonight Channel 5 at 8pm?



Slope Arms?

[Grabbers]

Sshhhhh,

Someone might mention 'Warzone'. :\

[diginagain]

During my 20 odd years on RAF SH it was always the AAC that dripped on, incessantly, about the the RAFs hotel culture even when we were colocated with them!

At no point during my 18 years of living in squalor with the AAC have I found it necessary to begrudge my sideways-scuttling colleagues their "hotel culture".

In fact, I managed just once to take advantage of this culture when attending the Swiss International Airshow at Yverdon many years ago, staying at the same palatial digs as a det from those fine Chinook chaps of Gutersloh. One of the loadies kindly invited me to partake of a beer or two back in their apartment, even furnishing me with the location.

Sadly, I didn't get the opportunity to take-up the invite, as my colleagues and I spent the night drinking beers bought on loady-mate's room number.

Cheers, easy.

[SL Hardly-Worthitt]

.....merely an unfortunate similarity in callsigns!

Just wanted to applaud Clockwork Mouse's post at #94 and pass my thanks for bringing some well-worded sense and balance amongst some of the over-reactionary drivel (immature biting?) that the OP was obviously aiming for.
VMT CM:D
H-W

[UnrepentantFB]

"Now into our third day waiting for a confirmation that the rooms have been booked ........ wtf is this all about ?

Even the helpline we have been given is an answer machine.... aaaargh !"

Previous Post by Hardly Worth It back when he cared about hotels and was trying to sort himself out with decent accn ( outwith of any transop indeed)

Pot calling kettle over! Also I see he must have liked some Crabs or is it only the living the ones he hates!!

Very poor posting and in very poor taste given the conditions, privations and human losses experienced by one of the most over worked fleets of the past 9 yrs.

Shame shame. I don't think Mark Fisk or his family would be very impressed at you right now!

[Clockwork Mouse]

While reading this thread I have moved from amused to sad and now to angry. The posting by UnrepentantFB is a singularly bitter, disproportionate offering to make as your first post. What ghastly atrocity has triggered this outburst of hate?
But dragging in the name of a dead man and his family to support your argument is really beyond the pale.
SHAME ON YOU.

[minigundiplomat]

Is this thread still going on?

Flogging, Talk, Horse, A, About, Dead

Rearrange the well known phrase from the words above.

[minigundiplomat]

Please Airpolice, I beg of you.....let it drop.

[Kengineer-130]

Stinking Engineer? :* Nice attitude :hmm:

[airpolice]

C'mon MGD, beg him as well.


It worked on me.

[Really annoyed]

Flogging, Talk, Horse, A, About, Dead

Rearrange the well known phrase from the words above.

Oh goody I like games like this.

Okay here goes...................................

Talk a flogging dead about horse. No that doesn't look right.

About a horse dead flogging talk. This is harder than it looks.

Your turn Airpolice.

[WIDN62]

Herc mate here. Finally I feel I have to say something on this thread.



Really Annoyed - brilliant!

[Clockwork Mouse]

Just 9 more for a very appropriate 130! Now then, who on Prune is REALLY bored?

[Winchweight]

No, no... I am sure that HWI will be giving back all his allowances and paying for his beer out of his own money. After all how can he maintain the moral high ground otherwise.:D

I guess this is indicative of the RN stopping their Caribbean cruises, parties on ship, cocktail parties on the poop deck or whatever traditional fishy things they do, in order to save some cash. I assume thats what they are going to do, because the Navy never waste any money.... no, never.... :E

This thread is a bit of light hearted banter which has evolved from a hacked off mummy's boy losing his teddy, keep it that way please, and no more mentioning Fisky, it's not becoming. He was my mate too and would probably have laughed at the banality of this (none) thread:bored:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Have it on good authority that a very senior dark blue mate met the crew last week and could not have been more embarrassed or apologetic, seems some twerp back in UK was the probable originator of this :p

For those of you not enjoying the thread why (a) read it and (b) keep posting the same banal whine about it going away :confused:

[xenolith]

What a lovely morning! 8/8 blue, crisp frost, reminds me of all those weeks spent on Ex Hardfall in Norway, only thing missing..............the rates, obviously.

[Frazzled]

Maybe he should have worked harder at school:E