CTC takeoff or Oxford Waypoint

[sn0w9]

hello all!

I am currently in a dilemma. I have completed my ATPL's at Oxford aviation, achieved first time passes in all subjects with a high 90's average.

I am now currently looking at where to train next. The 2 schools I have narrowed it down to are CTC's new takeoff modular scheme and Oxford's way-point course.

Ive visited both schools and both are very impressive.

The 2 big factors that are making it hard for me to decide are as follows.

If I finish my training with oxford I will have a consistent training record under one provider which ive heard looks good on the CV.

CTC are getting amazing first time pass rates with their new takeoff scheme and are using the DA-42 g1000 glass cockpit. Their pass rates are higher than oxfords...

A first time pass rate is very important to me, it seems obvious moving to CTC will increase my chances of a first time pass.

I had a go in their DA42 sim and wow... its a great piece of kit. I can really see why people are getting good results with that aeroplane.

Im really finding it hard to make my choice...

the 2 schools are virtually identical in cost.

any advice?

stick with Oxford and have a consistent training record?

move to CTC and their modern equipped aircraft?

thank you very much for reading.

[biaeghh]

But what is their actual first time pass rate? The figure quoted on their website is first series pass rate which is not the same.

[stevop21]

Are you sure it is a good idea to train modular at these institutions? I've heard they favour the integrated guys. You certaintly don't want to spend all that money and always be in 2nd place.

[Reverserbucket]

Personally, I'd go for an outfit that specialises in modular training rather than one whose main product is integrated. You would get better value for money in my opinion. I understand that the CPL module of the Oxford Waypoint course is conducted in the U.S. by FAA instructors who do not hold JAA Licences (they hold an authorisation iaw JAR-FCL 1.300). This appears contrary to the requirements of JAR-FCL 1.300 which states instructors not holding a JAR-FCL licence to instruct in a FTO outside of member states may only instruct to those parts of the ATP integrated course where the instructor can demonstrate the experience relevant to the intended training according to paragraph 1(a)(ii). Which I take to mean modular (not being integrated) may not be taught by such an instructor. I can't find any exemption to this.

Where do CTC conduct Modular training?

[sn0w9]

Thanks for your responses so far.

technically ctc's first time pass rate for their modular students are 100% but only 8 students have gone through the program so far...

the program is too new to get a reliable figure from them.

From doing my ATPL's with Oxford i noticed no "second class citizen treatment" from the school. they were fantastic and helped me get a good average. Cant fault them there. Their modular first time pass rate from 2010 is 80% which is a good figure.

Im going to phone Oxford tomorrow and find out about the instructors. Thats an interesting point you raised there. Im also going to ask about their Simulators as I have heard they are not PA34 sims..

CTC conduct their training 100% at Bournemouth airport UK.

I am leaning toward Oxford right now simply because i want to keep my training under one reputable banner.

still not 100% decided!

[Reverserbucket]

I noticed no "second class citizen treatment" from the school.

You wouldn't during groundschool but the flying side of the house can be quite different. Being trained a relatively short module by instructors who don't necessarily appreciate the nature of the type of course you are undertaking, far from Kidlington and competing with core business customers for the same resources you may be disappointed. An 80% first time pass rate is not high considering the comparatively few modular students enrolled on Waypoint. The FNPTII's in Kidlington are basically King Air cockpits configured to represent a Seneca but that shouldn't be an issue.

Have you considered Bristol Flying Centre or one of the other reputable non-integrated FTO's? Continuity of training with one provider will not be a factor between the theoretical and practical components.

I would say the most important decision you make with modular training is where and how you build the hours leading up to the CPL module - there's not much time in the course to put right bad habits. Best of luck with your decision because I'm afraid, as modular goes, a successful outcome depends a great deal on hard work and a lot of luck!

[Adios]

ReverserBucket's first reply regarding OAA using FAA instructors is irrelevant. The course has CAA approval, has had it for years and will continue to have it. So far, there is no definitive evidence that EASA coming on line will undo OAA and I would imagine that CTC New Zealand has the same issue and Cabair in Florida does too.

The important issue here is how do airlines prefer modular training to be done. The only one I know of to have taken a public position on the issue is Flybe. Others may have stated positions that I am not aware of, but I am sure other members will pipe in about that.

Flybe will accept one FTO for PPL, another for ATPL theory (probably in recognition of the results at BGS), a third for CPL/ME/IR and a fourth for MCC. A better way to say this would be that they prefer no more than two FTOs for the professional flying training bits and this is probably allowed so that students of some reputable modular FTOs that lack MCC capability aren't ruled out of applying to Flybe.

One can find quite a few reputable modular FTOs that can offer CPL/ME/IR/MCC, but keep in mind that Flybe also require a JOC. I think you may be able to apply to Flybe without it, but must then complete a JOC if they hire you. I don't know if the mandatory JOC is still a Flybe requirement, as it's been a while since I was told this by a Flybe recruiter at a Flyer Show, so if anyone can shed more recent light on this, please do.

I recommend the OP see if anyone can add to the above and clarify further or even state the preferences of airlines besides Flybe before proceeding. This is mostly because Flybe aren't hiring much yet and I'd say 90% or more of their low hour FO hiring the last two years has been their own mentored cadets and the other 10% or so has been Jersey/Guernsey residents who have good training reports, but also have won the post code lottery, so to speak, when Flybe have had Channel Island base vacancies.

Ryanair hire low hour modular students who can fund a type rating. I don't know the percentage breakdown of mod vs. int at RYR, but their appetite for OAA grads seems voracious. Since the OP has done ATPL theory at OAA, perhaps he can enquire how many Waypoint guys are in their Ryanair figure. He would also be wise to ask the other modular schools he's looking at how many of theirs have gotten in at Ryanair. They will know because Ryanair sends them a reference request letter when applying for their new FO's airside pass.

[Whiskey Bravo]

Would you mind sharing where you chose in the end?

[mad_jock]

Personally I would go for Exeter purely because they actually teach the full syllabus and produce a very competent instrument pilot.

But I know thats only 10% of the issue

[Whiskey Bravo]

Mad jock - Is that Airways or Flightpass? Am also only hearing good things about PAT in Bournemouth. Any experience?

[Dan the weegie]

Snow,

I'm applying for lots of nothing at the moment but it appears that people are only interested that you do the CPL and ME/IR at the same place. where you do your PPL or your GS is largely irrelevant.

There has been significant reports at OAA that they do tend to forget the modular students in preference to their integrated ones and I did meet several integrated students that had to wait 2 to 3 weeks between 170A and the IRT/CPL test which in my opinion is wholly unacceptable. That said you will come out of the sausage factory and you'll probably be a decent instrument pilot so I doubt it will be a big deal if you do choose that route, just remember to be patient, although honestly at this point I would seriously consider joining their integrated program and see if they will let you skip the ATPLs which you already have, you'll be much more likely to get a job - that being the case I would definitely go for CTC over OAA.

If I was to do it modular all over again I would do everything at Airways Flight Training in Exeter, I've sent 3 friends there and I did my IR there - what an excellent place to train with truly experienced instructors. You will come out a far better stick with a far better attitude than if you stick at OAA or CTC.

[mad_jock]

WB i only see whats given to me as a TP Captain. Its airways that sticks out from the crowd. But I have no complaints about the PAT FO's i have flown with.