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GAMEOVER
25th Feb 2011, 11:40
Hi all :)

I have the following question.

If you are flying at FL 330 and your Grid MORA is FL220 and your drift down is FL180. What would you do? You have an engine failure.

I think that I would have to descend according to the MEA as escape route.
What do you think? :sad:

flyer146
25th Feb 2011, 13:15
Hello,

First thing,
Before dispatching your aircraft, you must ensure 1#out ok throughout the flight ! Otherwise, no go or an alternative must be found.
This is the regulation.

Concerning your question, where have you found a min alt of 22000ft ? Not over Europe I guess... Nevertheless,

Second, you must indeed respect the minimum grid altitude or MEA etc... (this taking into account low qnh or low temperature affects on your altimetry.)

Do not forget, you will have to descend if you are high but it will take a certain distance/time before you reach your recovery altitude. (drift down).
The remaining engine is at MCT ! you won't descend like a brick at your best glide speed ok ?
By that time, hopefully you have decided on a good track considering terrain and you will be above your min altitudes.

Good drift !

Flyer146

9.G
25th Feb 2011, 13:43
If you are flying at FL 330 and your Grid MORA is FL220 and your drift down is FL180. What would you do? You have an engine failure.
First question is are you off route or not? If you follow the airway and MEA is depicted below FL 180 forget grid MORA descent to FL 180 applying necessary drift down strategy. In case you're off the airway then you better have a good situational awareness regarding the terrain profile along your route coz, at least on the BUS, grid MORA is only good for 40 NM after that it might rise or fall. If you happen to have a newer FMS version with indication of the lowest and the highest terrain within the selected range, well no brainer here, isn't it?
If the loss of an engine is your only worry, no pressurization problems, then even the obstacle strategy initially is OK. You'll certainly pass 40 NM applying even standard strategy for the drift down. The question is what's thereafter?
Funny, those upgrade questions, aren't they? Best of luck commander.:ok:

sevenstrokeroll
25th Feb 2011, 13:54
9g
has a good point...if you are on airways, and the MEA is FL180, you are ok...but stay on published route.

also, if in RADAR contact you could ask what the minimum vectoring altitude is, and if below driftdown alt, request vectors to lower terrain.

there might be ONE controlling obstacle in the grid, requring the higher grid MORA (like one mountain peak at 20,000feet) and you might be fine...

BUT, I always carried VFR charts to supplement IFR charts...to find that one peak.

WHERE are you ? Tibet?

SNS3Guppy
25th Feb 2011, 15:14
Good luck carrying enough VFR charts to cover long routes in areas where such high terrain exists, and good luck finding VFR charts to cover those areas.

ImbracableCrunk
25th Feb 2011, 16:08
My previous operator had a Enroute Terrain Clearance Program you followed that was part of the flight plan if the route had sections above the SE ceiling.

It was something along the lines of "if before VOR ABC, turn around, if after VOR ABC, but before XYZ, go to MNO, if after XYZ, continue."

flyburg
25th Feb 2011, 18:24
@gameover

generally, your driftdown distance would be able to cope with terrain. Speaking for the 73 it really is a large distance.

However in case of emergency descent it becomes an entirely different story, in this case you might need an escape route if you fly over high terrain.

Piltdown Man
25th Feb 2011, 18:42
If you are flying at FL 330 and your Grid MORA is FL220 and your drift down is FL180. What would you do? You have an engine failure.

What is your minimum en-route altitude? If that is, temperature corrected, less than 18,000' you shouldn't be there in the first place. If it's less but you are off-route, go back to the route. But Flyburg has got the real nasty one - the Emergency Descent. Sod the engine failure case, that's not limiting. The big questions are where will you go and low will you go? And how long will you be above 10,000 if you have a pressurisation failure? If you have to push it, a sustained period of 14,000' might be acceptable but you shouldn't plan to put yourself in the position where you have no way out.

PM

sevenstrokeroll
25th Feb 2011, 19:38
guppy...finding vfr charts for domestic US flying isn't too hard...and I know by heart where the high terrain is in the lower 48 (peaks around 15000' Mt whitney) Use WAC charts instead of sectionals.

PS...if you face this real problem you might consider the time honored 180degree turn or turn to a lower , adjactent, grid mora

Microburst2002
26th Feb 2011, 18:19
The maximum one-eng out altitude is FL180?

From the start of the drift down till the end you will burn a lot of fuel (remaining engine/s at MCT) and will take a long time (an hour or so from the typical cruising levels).

So probably your ceiling will be better at the end of it, but I don't know if as much as 4,000 ft.

If unable, either a decision point or an escape route must have been planed so you don't take any chances. I have seen special charts with such points and escape routes.

There are many places in the world with such MEAs. The Andes mountain range and the himalayas come to my mind.

9.G
26th Feb 2011, 20:01
What is your minimum en-route altitude? If that is, temperature corrected, less than 18,000' you shouldn't be there in the first place.
So every time we fly ETOPS with the planned ETOPS diversion flight time of up to 240 minutes at 10000ft SE we shouldn't be there? :eek:

Piltdown Man
26th Feb 2011, 21:26
So every time we fly ETOPS with the planned ETOPS diversion flight time of up to 240 minutes at 10000ft SE we shouldn't be there?

No, I didn't say that did I? You have probably got hold of the wrong end of the stick. My post was referring to where this thread started -

...Grid MORA is FL220 and your drift down is FL180. What would you do?

But as far as I am concerned, you can go wherever you like at 10,000'. Even when the MSA is 18,000' - just so long as I am not sitting down the back.

PM

9.G
26th Feb 2011, 22:04
P.M I will, no worries coz I couldn't care less about MSA while being en-route.:ok:

flyburg
27th Feb 2011, 01:05
@ gameover,

Lot of posts, but regarding your question, driftdown in a 73 or airbus once again is not such a big deal!

law states that if your SE ceiling is less than the route mea or grid mora, whatever you name it you have to have a driftdown procedure.

Generally speaking for the above mentioned types it is just a dispatch exercise. the SE driftdown rate and speed will allow you to descend clear of all terrain in almost all places I can think of.

For example, the 73 will SE driftdown at approx 300 to 500 fpm. given an speed of 5 to 6 miles per hour it would take you close to 132 miles to descend from FL330 to FL 220 in worst case scenario!!! Enough to cover almost all places in the world. That is not what escape routes are for.

Escape routes come into effect for emergency descents, even in the alps this can be an issue. the 73 has pax oxygen for 12 minutes. You have to be able to descent to 14.000 in 12 minutes. With an average speed of 6 miles pm you have to be able to descent to 14.000 within 72 miles, can be done over the highest parts of the Alps but you have to know where you are at, some other places in the world this may be an issue, hence the escape routes.

Hopes this helps

Green Guard
27th Feb 2011, 04:58
Grid MORA is FL220 and your drift down is FL180. What would you do? You have an engine failure.

With or without an engine failure, whenever you are NOT VMC and in doubt about terrain,
set your Radar to ON with Antenna at 7 deg down.
Radar distance circles will correspond to your Height above Terrain
for example,all inside of a 10 NM circle is dark
means you are 10 000 feet above Terrain
PS
You will see all terrain from -7 deg to UP.
Keep dark area above 5 NM (5000') never below 2.5
Try it when you are VMC for a start..:)

9.G
27th Feb 2011, 11:21
gameover, please do yourself a favor and read getting to grips with a/c performance coz you read lots of BS here.:ok:

Piltdown Man
27th Feb 2011, 15:52
...no worries coz I couldn't care less about MSA while being en-route.

You surely have to be a troll, cabin crew (no disrespect to CC intended) or an MS sim. pilot. A cruise is only a cruise as long as everything is ticketyboo. Even in a 757 which I believe never has to consider driftdown, MSA and "escape routes" are still an issue. So well before something goes twang, you really ought to have an understanding of what will be beneath you well before you actually need know in fine detail. That's why you have MSA/MEA/Route MORA on your flight plan and that's why you look at them before and during the flight.

PM

Capt Fathom
28th Feb 2011, 00:21
From the start of the drift down till the end you will burn a lot of fuel (remaining engine/s at MCT) and will take a long time (an hour or so from the typical cruising levels).

I doubt you'll achieve a nice gentle driftdown in a busy ATC environment. You'll have to either divert off the airway system, or just carry out a normal descent to whatever level you can maintain.

9.G
28th Feb 2011, 09:32
My dear PM you won't impress me by lowering your social skills but by, at least, having the courtesy to learn the definitions and their meanings in particular the FAA once. See please what MSA stands for and when it's applicable and where it's depicted. For the en-route portion of the flight I care about MEA, MOCA, MORA and GRID MORA. Hope you'll be little more thorough next time you jump the gun coz I'd fail the oral portion of your LC due to lack of basic terms understanding.

GAMEOVER
28th Feb 2011, 12:29
The interviewer didnīt say which area of the world or airspace, no details about it.
I think that he wanted to see your knowledge developing different answeres and possibilities...off route, not, etc

It was also a question to get a position of Captain.

I was confusing the meaning, the concept of Escape Route. Thanks everybody for your help.

Regarding the answer...Also, do not be in a rush because the plane will not descend until the plane speed has reached Driftdown speed as the target. So , you would have time to contact ATC and declare emergency before starting your descent, bearing in mind you could be in a Reduced Vertical Separation Minimum airspace...so many scenarios, so that ATC would have time to separate traffics...

Have nice flights :ok:

de facto
28th Feb 2011, 13:19
[QUOTE][/Also, do not be in a rush because the plane will not descend until the plane speed has reached Driftdown speed as the target. So , you would have time to contact ATC and declare emergency before starting your QUOTE]

i wouldnt be that sure....

Upper Air
28th Feb 2011, 16:05
You could always buy a pair of skis.

If, if you are talking south Hym - like North of Katmandu, there are `some` escape routes - written by Thales, used to be called AERAD part of EADS etc. . . find them on the net. they do Escape Routes for. . .large airlines of a UK bias. With their en-route charts they also have a route map which is a bit different and the overleaf are your escape routes.

Thales also does the paperless cockpit version. . . . you know the one. .

Also, there is a guy in Lufthansa who has adapted some and they have been passed as kosher by the authorities, but I don`t know his name therefore - not very helpful, but its a start.

Also - you really must take onboard all of the "Golden" advice posted by the other crew members previously in this topic - as there is a lot there written in there. (repetition of `there` on purpose - for emphasis).:uhoh:

Add: Change:- sorry, they are called Navtech.aero now (British version of Jepp)

Also, there was a post (on `ere) about them some time ago - the Link to the post is below - safe flying !!

http://www.pprune.org/questions/338109-aerad-charts-what-happening.html

GAMEOVER
28th Feb 2011, 19:09
Well, do not be in rush because ATC needs time to separate traffics.

It is not a Escape Route.

Regards.