Alcohol Testing of Flight Crew

[737incognito]

I've read couple of threads where pilots were tested on alcohol after some suspicion is raised by security staff, their colleagues or pax, but yesterday my crew was subject of such an RANDOM test by Swedish Police.
Of course we passed the test, but when I questioned policemen under what authority they come on board aircraft to test crew (without an aviation inspector for instance), thy told me it was like that in Sweden. I would like to mention that I did not step of the aircraft, but they came in and asked for permission to enter the flight deck. We told them that we believe aircraft to be extra-territorial to Sweden, but I was not sure, and they insisted so finally I accepted the test.
Let me mention that aircraft/company/crew are outside EU.
Does anybody with better knowledge of ICAO convention and EU laws can tell me if all this was legal or there is a chance not to accept such testing in future. My concerns are not so much with Sweden or EU (I don't drink and fly), but with some third world countries where rule of law is questionable or police is corrupted, equipment may be contaminated etc, and tester shows I did drink even if I did't?

[blue up]

IIRC, Tokyo Convention says that A/C is only under juristiction of home nation once under its' own power. Whilst parked it is subject to the law of the land it is sat upon. That was the rules for disruptive passengers, anyway.

[411A]

....they came in and asked for permission to enter the flight deck.

Next time say...no entry.

[IcePack]

411A Tried that once over another issue. Mmm! they parked a fire truck behind me so could not push back. Got a bit silly really.:ugh:

[cwatters]

I suspect you can't really consider yourself safe until you leave a countries airspace/water. Until then they could allways send an escort after you to encourage you to return (on some pretext if necessary).

[supermoix]

737i:

Yes, According to the Chicago Convention (Article 16) specifies that any state authority have the right to search the aircraft, and apply the laws accordingly, be it aviation or local laws, it doesn't specify. It only applies to civil Aircraft, Not state Aircraft.

I understand how uncomfortable the situation can be, but is better just to fully comply than try to object or fight authority, the simply can stop your flight until compliance. good thing it was in Sweden, there are other European and first world American countries than can react third world style if you refuse.

[ExSp33db1rd]

.......Whilst parked it is subject to the law of the land it is sat upon........

Seem to remember that that was the situation regarding drinking before flying, which used to be 8 hours Bottle to Throttle in some countries, 12 in others and, if memory serves me, 24 in India, (?) so on a 24 hr. 'slip pattern' one couldn't have a beer at all during the stopover, nothing to do with blood alcohol levels - straight legislation of the country one had landed in, nothing to do with the State of Registration of the aircraft one was flying out.

[blind pew]

Had a short slip in Copenhagen whilst in the bar having a post flight beer - a pax waited with one eye on his watch - just under 12 hrs before our scheduled departure time he walked over and told us that we were breaking the law!
We said we were governed by our countries law - which of course we weren't- and got away with it.
Didn't do it again.
Remember most crews would ignore the Indian 24 hour regulation - probably didn't know any better.
Personally I think the obligatory breath test is a good idea - especially after the ANC crash.

[Captain Dart]

It's happening now in Australia; I fly for an Asian airline, and one of our guys was recently random-checked on arrival (!) in AUS after a 9 hour sector. Our crews of course have also been checked outbound. Occasionally these people will shut down activity at regional airports and check everybody who is airside.

This is the same regulator that at the start of their programme mailed out a 'Drug and Alcohol' awareness calendar to every pilot in Australia, at great cost to the taxpayer; said calendar had an entire month missing and other mistakes. The CASA proof reader must have been on something themselves...

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

I've had the cops on the aircraft in AMS to do alcohol tests on the crew.

I was confident that we'd all pass but helluva worried about the possibility of anyone failing the test (crew arrested, handcuffs on, jail, court trial, sacking etc) never mind having to cancel the service.

The cop did not do the tests in the end as pax were boarding (it was 1600 LT btw) but like the OP, I wonder where exactly we stand legally.

I suspect, you have no alternative but to submit to the test though.

I have heard that a tee-total person can easily blow a 0.17 and that is why the Dutch have the limit set at 0.20.:uhoh:

[ExSp33db1rd]

.........whilst in the bar having a post flight beer..........

??? How did he know ? Surely you weren't still in uniform ?

.....most crews would ignore the Indian 24 hour regulation - probably didn't know any better.....

True, and most of India was 'dry' at that time as well, so on a 5 day slip in Bombay ( not Mumbai ) the only way to get a beer was to register as an aloholic ! I personally never did - and my lips are sealed !!

I have heard that a tee-total person can easily blow a 0.17 and that is why the Dutch have the limit set at 0.20

On my last Cop-Stop I blew over the limit, and hadn't had a drink ! The lady cop said it was probably my after-shave, and her make-up often showed her over the limit, too, nevetheless I had to waste time blowing into the next step, the bag, which showed a large zero.

Not condoning drinking and flying of course, but this is getting ridiculous, I think I'll insist on making the next Supermarket supervisor take a breathalyser test before she serves me.

[welliewanger]

CaptDart
one of our guys was recently random-checked on arrival (!) in AU
Just to split hairs. Once the aircraft is parked up and shut down (except maybe the APU) I can't see a problem with a little drink. That's from an entirely legal perspective, not from a "looking professional" point of view.

[8314]

0.2 per thousand that is.....not per cent

[Artificial Horizon]

I parked up in Brisbane the other day on a turnaround and was met by a CASA inspector who conducted a random breath test on both pilots and two of the four cabin crew. We commented on this all being a bit pointless due to the fact we had just flown in and it would be a bit late not if we were all roaring drunk. She didn't get it:ugh:

All passed though:ok:

[747JJ]

A few years back in a CIS country while flying intra country flights on a smallish A320, I was called the day before by company ops: "Hi. You will have a random alcohol check tomorrow morning". What a service :E

As for submitting a test to a police officer, no problems and if you have nothing to hide it only takes a few seconds really. However a company I once worked for informed that they can have someone in the office conduct a brethalyzer test. With that I have a problem. These instruments are not calibrated properly and can show interesting readings after eating fruit or spicy food. Try to explain that to some 22 year old with life experience of a banana when she tells you that you are pissed a skunk. Not personal experience but happened to a mate.

[matkat]

As an engineer I was tested twice by an FAA inspector on consecutive days also it was the same guy, I did of course pass.

[blaireau]

I flew for an Indian carrier. A doctor was stationed in dispatch for every departing flight. We were required to sign a form that basically self certified our fitness for duty. Probably on about one in four occasions, we were breathalysed. It was random. Notably, during my two year tenure, 2 pilots were found to be positive. Neither was an Indian national. The resulting events were unhappy outcomes.

[zlin77]

I flew with the same carrier as Blaireau, was subjected to an alcohol test approx. 75% of the time departing BOM.....sometimes our company doctor would pop-up in BRU, funny how the locals always knew when this was happening, but the expats were never told!!

[Max Angle]

Hopefully someone will invent a fatigue test on day. Guess you will still get banged up for failing it though!.

[mickjoebill]

At what point in time between journey from the hotel to pushback does crew become legally liable for being over the limit?

[BigGeordie]

Usually at the report time, 1 hour before departure.

[blind pew]

No speedbird - I wasn't in uniform.
1.We had a stupid company rule that the Captain greeted the pax on boarding.

2. We had to collect our baggage with the Pax.

3. Occasionally one of the punters would hope to get his leg over one of the hostesses! The hotel was adjacent to the airport.

As to Bombay - never had a problem bringing booze in there - the CC always had a large bag of chocolates for customs and unlike your outfit we were NEVER searched.

Expect you would nowadays have a problem with the "brown milk" going into Aussie.

Remember the story that changed everything in my old company when a crew nicked most of the return bar for the week's layover in Banjul - and a lot of jock oil workers had to drink tea on the flight to the UK after a month on a dry oil rig!
happy days

[chrispar]

My airline (UK A340 operator) requires us to stand down after an alcohol test, regardless of outcome.

Hasn't happened to me (yet) but I bet it's stressful.

[ExSp33db1rd]

3. Occasionally one of the punters would hope to get his leg over one of the hostesses! The hotel was adjacent to the airport.

in which case, surely, his actions were counter-productive ?

See a PM.

Friend was pilot on a small commuter aircraft tasked with bringing 4 Australian oil-rig workers back from Brunei to Singapore one day. When he got off he remarked to the hostess that he had taken, that they weren't very happy ?

No, she said, we ran out of beer, and it was a 1-1/2 hour flight, after they had been on the rig for 3 months.

How much beer did you load on, he said. 4 cans, she replied, 1 each !!!!

Next time, he said, load 4 crates !

[Coireall]

My airline (UK A340 operator) requires us to stand down after an alcohol test, regardless of outcome.

Hasn't happened to me (yet) but I bet it's stressful.Not that stressful when you are certain that you have not been drinking alcohol in the last 24 hours. Happened to me at LHR last year and I operated the flight as planned and felt no stress type after effects.

[YorkshireTyke]

Not that stressful when you are certain that you have not been drinking alcohol in the last 24 hours. Happened to me at LHR last year and I operated the flight as planned and felt no stress type after effects.

Unless there is some State Legislation, over which one hopes the Unions have some input before losing the battle, demanding that a pilot takes a breathalyser test before flying, hopefully with suitable safeguards against 'false positives' - I'd tell them to go to Hell.

Why should some Control Freak Jobsworth effectively brand you a liar and make you prove otherwise with a 'clean' test ? Unless of course you will be breaking the law by refusing, as in a road side situation now. I'm out of it, so no problem for me, but has that situation reached flying yet ? and I sympathise with those now subjected to even more bureaucracy.

I'm NOT supporting any sort of 'right' to drink and fly, but what was once referred to as the coming of "1984" - or was it "Brave New World" -long past now of course ! - i.e. the State control of every action, and mental process, is slowly being forced upon us, witness the futility of the so called 'Security' checks that crew now have to put up with on a daily basis, crew who are actually at the forefront of the battle against airborne terrorism !! Total waste of time. ( and money )

[jjeppson]

For the past several years in the USA we have had post flight drug random drug and alcohol testing. I probably average a random test once or twice a year. You will also get tested post accident and for probable cause. Our union negotiated 30 minutes of pay per testing so I actually look forward to it.

[Solar]

Could flight crew or a punter request that a security member be tested and is there a limit for them!!!!

[Swedish Steve]

Here in Sweden its not only flight crew that are tested.
The police come on the airport regularly and stop all passing ramp vehicles for driver breathalyser tests.
Testing of flight crew is new, I have seen them twice in the last two months, but surprisingly they tested the crew that had landed, not the crew that were departing.
Out on the streets, random breathtesting is common. I personally have been stopped in an all cars roadblock and tested 3 times in the past year, two of them on the Motorway going home from work at 0100.

[cheese bobcat]

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but just below this thread, there is an instance of a pilot falling asleep at the wheel (so to speak). Now, as one who has operated both long and short haul routes, I have spent in some years over 220 nights in hotels, sometime jet-lagged, sometimes not. But, if I were a passenger, I would much rather the pilot had a little alcohol in his/her system than had spent a sleepless night in a hotel. I have no idea what all these alcohol readings mean, but the idea of not drinking for 24 hours before flying seems crazy. One may not be able to drink for a whole week!

P.S. I am retired, so don't worry!

[ExSp33db1rd]

I would much rather the pilot had a little alcohol in his/her system than had spent a sleepless night in a hotel.

For many, "The Lunch Time Beer" before a long night flight was the afternoon naps' soporific of choice, (there was a better one of course, but rarely was a compliant example available - my lips are sealed ) and usually ensured a few hours sleep in a city hotel surrounded by traffic and Police sirens, whereas those who didn't indulge tossed and turned sleeplessly, and reported for work considerably less relaxed, and considerably more knackered some hours later when a demanding landing approached had to be completed.

Testing the crew after a normal sector, with no irregularity, is just crass nonsense, testing a crew to - maybe - prevent a future incident is one thing, but are 'they' going to prosecute a crew for successfully completing a flight !! Would 'they' prefer that crew had crashed and killed everyone , but were stone cold sober, so that was alright ?

The World has truly Gone Mad.

[Captain Dart]

...and what's more, not one RPT aircraft accident, in Australia at least, has ever had alcohol or drugs as a contributing factor. Non-RPT I cannot comment on, but I'm sure it's next to zero as well. How about elsewhere in the world, anybody (Russia excepted!)?

A friend with an AOC (just joy flights for Pete's sake) had to shut down his operation for a day and be harangued by a very well fed public servant about drug and alcohol awareness, his required implementation program, steps to be taken in case of suspicion, annual reporting blah blah blah.

I'm sure public servants in other countries are taking note of this potential for more feather-bedded dogsbodies to be employed at tax-payers' expense for a very dubious return to these taxpayers. The world hasn't gone mad, Mr Speedbird, it's government employees perpetuating their own kind, inventing programs in the name of 'safety' to justify more of them to leech off the ever-reducing numbers of people who actually produce goods and services.

Random-testing one of our guys after a nine-hour flight (see my previous post) wtf? Did these idiots think that the F/O had had a quick 'nip' to settle the nerves for landing? The pilot involved actually commented to the testing Jobsworth that fatigue was more of an issue; the eyes just glazed over...

[ExSp33db1rd]

Unless it is written into a States' legislation, and therefore unavoidable, then I'd follow YorkshireTykes' lead and tell 'em to go to Hell.

[stilton]

The whole business is ridiculous. My company does random drug and alcohol tests on us but always after final block in.


You would think it would be better to do these tests before flight but how would you replace a failed crew member without incuring a delay ?!

[ExSp33db1rd]

So just WHAT is the point ?

I used to fly 14 hr sectors, would they think that the crew served us alcohol at the controls ? But maybe they'd want to congratulate us for successfully completing a demanding approach whilst totally plastered ?

[Coireall]

Unless it is written into a States' legislation, and therefore unavoidable, then I'd follow YorkshireTykes' lead and tell 'em to go to Hell.ExSpeedbird, I doubt that you would have done that at LHR and I think it is bad advice to give to any commander operating from any country's airports. Police have powers of arrest and even if subsequently released uncharged, there will be attendant publicity which would best have been avoided by more prudent actions at the outset.
When I was breath-tested, the first I knew about it was when two police officers arrived on my flightdeck at ETD minus 40 minutes. I had barely spoken to the security staff, so I have no idea what they had noticed about my body language. The police were not able to tell me the details of the security staff's report. That is unacceptable and is what needs to be changed.
We departed on time, and this surely would not have been the case had I told them to 'Go to Hell'.

[VFR750]

And...why is it unacceptable for the Police to come into your cockpit and ask for a specimen of breath?, its just like a random roadside breath test leading upto Xmas, if u have nothing to hide, why is it a problem???
I spend most nights during the week and a fair few weekends in various hotels around the world and don't seem to have too many issues getting a good sleep

just my view as frequent self loading cargo.

Regards

Neil B

[TiiberiusKirk]

Hopefully someone will invent a fatigue test on day. Guess you will still get banged up for failing it though!.Been done....

New cars : Volkswagen UK (http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new/passat-vii/explore/experience/driver-assistance/fatigue-detection-system-)

Couple more buttons, lights and alarms on the FD &
"Ladies & Gents, we're just stopping here for a quick coffee and leg stretch. Meet back here in 20 minutes."

[ExSp33db1rd]

Coireall .... Yes, I would doubtless have meekly complied, too, doesn't make it right tho' and of course I'm in no danger of having to put my money where my mouth is now !

VFR 750 why is it unacceptable for the Police to come into your cockpit and ask for a specimen of breath?

Is it now acceptable, or even legal (?) for the Police, or others (?) to randomly wave breathalysers at anybody ? Anywhere ? Can they come into your office? If the travelling public reckon that all airline pilots are potential mass murderers by the possibility of having consumed alcohol before flight, then lobby to have it put into legislation - is it yet, I truly don't know ? - at least the pilots' will then have a chance to build in safeguards against corruption and malpractice. A motorist here in NZ was acquitted because he was able to prove that the operating constable had not received the proper training for use of the equipment, do the pilots know that some stranger waving a breathalyser at them is qualified to do so ? And who is ?

I guess in most countries it is unlawful to disobey a Policemans' demand, e.g. that you stop, when driving. I once stopped at such a demand at a roadside Census post. I'd been flying all night, I was knackered, I just wanted to get to bed, and of course I stopped at the outstretched hand, but I pointed out that whereas I had obeyed the lawful commands of a Police Officer to stop, there was no law that enforced me to answer the questions of the jerk with the clipboard, I had flown ... was tired... etc. so he waved me on !

I spend most nights during the week and a fair few weekends in various hotels around the world and don't seem to have too many issues getting a good sleep

Sleeping at night is rarely a problem, sleeping again in the middle of the afternoon prior to an evening departure often is, plus the added pressure of 'knowing' that one 'must' get some sleep, you, presumably, have the pleasure of knowing that you can sleep on the aircraft, and be reasonably refreshed on arrival, so no pressure to perform, so no problem, you could probably sleep like a baby.

I knew of some who would take a sleeping pill, but they were regarded with the same suspicion that society now reserves for those on 'P' ! "Pilots on drugs !!! Shock, horror.

Just my thoughts, I'm bored with it now, and at my age I have no problem taking the post-prandial nap in the afternoon, even without alcohol, but then I don't have to fly all night, either !

From what I read of working practices in the industry now, fatigue is a greater potential killer than alcohol, and don't forget, it was accidents attributed to fatigue, not alcohol, that forced the bean counters into accepting flight time limitations in the first place, and decent hotels with rooms that could be made dark and silent ( most times ). Let's not slip back into the bad old days - I'm SLF myself, now !

Thinks ... the old Raffles Hotel in Singapore was the ideal crew hotel, the rooms were inside, nowhere near the road, they could be made black inside, and the personal air conditoner was like having ones' own Pratt and Witney in the corner, the steady noise was almost soporific, and kept anything else at bay, and best of all - when one eventually awoke in the middle of the afternoon, one could have a proper ' English' breakfast served on ones' own balcony by a white gloved waiter, with double damask knapkins and table cloth !!!! Happy days !

Enjoy.

[bobdh478]

I hasten to say that I am a shipping pro, but we have very much the same problems, maybe worse now. My objection is........does this all apply to the office staff?

[Wunwing]

Its interesting that it is seen as a right for govenrments to carry out drug testing of a crew at any time worldwide. However it is OK for pax who sit in overwing exits of B737 and A320 aircraft (and have a designated safety role) to not only be not liable for drug testing, but actually be supplied with alchol during flight.

I have asked (Australian) CASA for an answer on that one but nearly six months later, no answer.

[ExSp33db1rd]

and not knocking Aussies, but wasn't it some Aus. engineer that filled aircraft oxygen bottles with the wrong stuff - was he breathalysed before his error ? or after ?

Or the Pom who put the wrong sized bolts in the 1-11 windscreen, which then sucked the Captain out, never any suggestion that alcohol played apart, that I'm aware of, but did anybody check ?

Definitely not suggesting that alcohol consumption is A Good Thing, but almost everybody connected with aviation is licensed for the job that they do, and acts professionally.

Of course there are rotten apples in every barrel, but why only sample one type of barrel, as appears to be the case ?

Can anyone answer my previous quetion - just WHAT is the point of breathalysing a pilot AFTER an incident free flight ?

It can only be 'pour encourager les autres' - but for what reason ?

[overun]

Captain Dart, l can`t do the reproducing text thing but your post 27th Feb 0456 is right on the mark.

A good few years ago l watched - to my frustration - a very junior employee use an inhouse breathalyser as a weapon.

Thumb nail sketch. 7 a.m. Fogged out farther north and oil workers starting to back up in the terminal. l went for a cup of nescaff at the back of the check-in desk for a natter, gold braid out of sight behind the advertising display. 3 staff on duty fending off questions concerning God`s intentions for the weather.
One gentleman did become loud - assertive but polite - and was dealt with by the junior.

l had to shuffle my seat aside as she pulled out the company breath test kit.

He failed.

lt turned out, after his job was gone, that he`d arrived about 2100 the previous night from 2 or 4 ( l can`t remember now) weeks off-shore to be told that his replacement hadn`t turned up and the oil company requested his presence on the first flight back.
A senior man.
He was given a room in town and £350 cash for expenses.
Any surprise at the outcome of that ?

He appeared absolutely fine and just needed to travel.

Rules and regulations are understandable, but being implemented by power crazed half wits is the real problem.
ln my opinion.


ps. having re-read this l feel l should explain that he was denied travel because of the breath test, as the captain of the flight l wasn`t consulted.

[Wunwing]

Under the Australian CASA "DAMP" rules, everyone is testable except pax. It is common here for the testers to turn up at an airport and test everyone on site including engineers,cargo etc.

If you have an aviation business, then you can designate non aviation areas, so office staff for example are not covered.

So in theory a fair system. From the results that they are getting and anecdotal evidence, there is a small drug problem in aviation, particularly with the younger members. Older ones are still getting caught for alchohol but not so many.

Wunwing

[737incognito]

I've seen some very good post and few good anecdotes. I would like to take chance to comment some of them, as I feel, for benefits of the crew worldwide, there are still questions that need to be answered regarding testing.

It seems, after re-reading Chicago Convention, that rules of the country overflown (Sweden in my case) prevail. However these must be published if they defer from ICAO recommendation. I still don't know if ICAO considers alcohol levels/testing at all.
If company procedure is 8hrs "from bottle to throttle" how am I supposed to know other countries higher limits.
What rights do you have if quick test is positive.
How can you prove you didn't drink but you have eaten grapes or had too many tea.
If the rule is to test only the landing crew (in order not to induce stress), than they should not test foreign crew during turnaround.

If there is anybody who has any info from local CAA or their union I would very much appreciate if you could share them (reference to info is good as well).

[overun]

Personally l have no idea.

The problem you`re facing is, l suspect, that nobody else does either.

Who is reading the regs, and why ?

[phnuff]

I dont usually post in this forum, so please excuse my presence

I just wanted to point out that I am currently working in the UK rail industry which has a very strict drugs and alcohol policy and which regularly puts all types of staff through random p1ss tests whether actually involved in trackside operations, those on rail construction sites and even those in offices who are not allowed anywhere near the operational railway. If you are in the industry, you just have to accept it !

[Jox]

Reality check: let us consider what we hold dear, others perception and the fact that we all believe that in these changing times nobody would attend work subject to the influence of either alcohol or medication / recreational substances.

Companies have their own policies which we are all subject to without negotiation or right of recourse. We are not asked, we are told -YOU- are subject to the policy, comply or find a role elsewhere.

Now let us consider that alcohol consumption is widely accepted but while its use is prevalent and acceptable in our society, problems arise in the use of alcohol and the performance of safety-related activities, such as flying an aircraft, driving a train, operating a ship, driving a bus or large goods vehicle. Problems are made worse by a common belief that "accidents happen to other people. Not me." There is a tendency to forget that flying and other roles as previously mentioned may be highly demanding, cognitive and psychomotor tasks that take place in inhospitable environments where pilots / operators are exposed to various sources of stress.

Research undertaken within Europe has indicated that pilots have shown impairment in their ability to fly an ILS approach or to fly IFR, and even to perform routine VFR flight tasks while under the influence of alcohol, regardless of individual flying experience. The number of serious errors committed by pilots dramatically increases at or above concentrations of 0.04% blood alcohol. Some studies have shown decrements in pilot performance with blood alcohol concentrations as low as 0.025%.

Flying is a precise, demanding, and unforgiving endeavour. Any factor that impairs the pilot's ability to perform the required tasks during the operation of an aircraft is an invitation for disaster. The use of alcohol or medication is a significant additional self-imposed stress factor that should be eliminated from the cockpit. The ability to do so is strictly within the pilot's control.

The safety and security of air travel depends upon properly trained personnel, well-founded systems and procedures, and the application of a range of techniques to detect, identify, quantify and respond to both active and passive threats. Effective safety and security is built upon the integrity, reliability and performance of personnel performing essential duties.

Recent events have illustrated how much the performance of airport personnel and airline crew can directly affect aviation safety.
The prevalence of drugs in the wider community is a sad fact of life. Consequently, substance abuse is a genuine risk to safety and security, to public confidence in all forms of transport and the well-being of their industries.

It is important that airport and airline staff perform at their best. It makes sense for the operators to respond to concerns and have a robust drugs policy and to test personnel for substance abuse only to corroborate and substantiate the claim that crews are beyond reproach and are the responsible individuals that they assure their customers that they are.
Aviation has had many shocks in recent times and these have badly shaken the confidence of the travelling public and the commercial well-being of the industry. Even relatively small incidents are sufficient to perturb an already uneasy travelling public, with catastrophic commercial consequences to airlines and airports.

Recent incidents have demonstrated that, despite careful and intensive training, alcohol and drugs abuse does occur. In fact, studies have shown that substance abuse is more common than is generally believed. Substance abuse may occur within a small minority of the population, but the effects on the industry can be disproportionate.

Like an accident, most airlines and airports cannot afford even one such (usually well publicised) incident. Even when incidents occur elsewhere, all airlines will be faced with awkward questions about their own staff. It is sensible to be proactive in such circumstances and have appropriate procedures in place.

Many operators have embraced and enacted new legislation enabling drug testing of a wide group of airline and airport personnel. In addition Government legislation gives powers to the police to carry out drugs and alcohol testing of flight crew, cabin crew, maintenance engineers and Air Traffic Controllers, when given due cause with these powers applying whether the individual is on duty or on standby.

In 2007, an airline pilot turned up for work while almost six and a half times over the drink limit to fly a plane. The American pilot smelled strongly of alcohol and was unsteady on his feet when he turned up for duty at Manchester Airport.

A First Officer with American Airlines, he was to be one of three pilots on a 10.30am transatlantic flight to Chicago with 181 passengers on board. But when he went to go through a security gate for flight crew in his pilot’s uniform he could not find his identification security pass. Security staff could smell drink and called in police, who arrested him.

He was arrested and taken to Altrincham Police Station where a doctor took an evidential blood sample. This gave a result of 129 micrograms of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood. The legal limit for flying an aircraft is 20 micrograms.

I hasten to add that I do not know the personal circumstances of the pilot concerned but that the facts above are true as entered in evidence.
When I started in this industry we were subject of varying hours throttle to bottle (loosely enforced). Now we are subject to rigorous and proactive screening. I would surmise that this is a response to concern and whilst not being ecstatic about it, I for one accept it. Having done so I can now deal with genuine concerns for things I need to change and that I have a chance to change in my working life rather than attempting to hang onto old policies which are no longer balanced, practicable or acceptable in the 21st century.

Rant over, time for beer!

Jox :ok:




The "facts" of the AA pilot incident are not correct.
He did not report for duty.
See post #58 below.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Now we are subject to rigorous and proactive screening.

The only reason I can think of for growing old !! At least I never had to put up with all this c**p, and don't now - whatever happened to ethics, and innocent until proved guilty ?

Each generation thinks that they had ' the best of times ' in their industry - I certainly agree with that !

Enjoy.

[BusyB]

JOX,

How many more pilots are flying fatigued than flying with alcohol in their bloodstreams?

How many more accidents have fatigue as a factor than alcohol?

Waste of a rant when it is meaningless:ugh:

[Lance]

Ah my leetle non Franch pilots, I am almost sorry for you. We 'ere at a fabulous euro Legacy carrier laugh at your silly trousers. We know what is culture and 'ave our beautiful 'ostesses, yes you know, ze ones on ze "u tube" bringing us a leetle bottle of chablis for ze cuise, just for artistic reasons of course. And you know why zay don't check us? Yes, zats right, because we are FRENCH! Ha Ha.

[Escape Path]

JOX,

How many more pilots are flying fatigued than flying with alcohol in their bloodstreams?

How many more accidents have fatigue as a factor than alcohol?

Waste of a rant when it is meaningless:ugh:

Well, is there any way to detect fatigue in such an expedite manner as it currently exists to detect BAC?

Sure, there must be larger quantities of fatigue-related incidents than there are related to alcohol; yet somehow, operators and authorities both deem it as a threat (proved by the AA pilot).

You all should stop whining about all this; if you ain't guilty, why on earth are you so scared about blowing on that silly thing? You all know which things also give a positive for blood alcohol content despite not containing alcohol at all; then don't use them! If you do use them and give a positive BAC test, then ask for a blood test instead, that should clear all doubts.

As Jox stated above: There are regulations in this industry and you either stick to them or find another job. A BAC test is nothing to make a revolution out of. We should be more focused on improving the ability to detect (or prevent) fatigue; there's your revolution right there

[Shell Management]

Detection and enforcement is not yet rigorous enougth to be a true deterenet.

[AnthonyGA]

Well, is there any way to detect fatigue in such an expedite manner as it currently exists to detect BAC?

A performance test would accomplish that, and it could also replace testing for alcohol.

Such a test would directly test performance in a way that correlated highly with piloting tasks. A pilot who failed the test would be considered impaired and would suffer the consequences, and the cause of the impairment would be irrelevant. With a test such as this, drug testing could be discontinued.

Unfortunately, it is very difficult to design such a test. In the meantime, given that the use of certain drugs reliably results in impairment, testing for the drugs is the next best thing.

A test for fatigue would essentially be a performance test, and since the latter is very difficult to design, the former does not currently exist.

The use of drugs is extremely widespread, and those who use drugs are typically very nervous about drug testing. Drugs are a pox on society.

[skip.rat]

A performance test would accomplish that, and it could also replace testing for alcohol.

Such a test would directly test performance in a way that correlated highly with piloting tasks. A pilot who failed the test would be considered impaired and would suffer the consequences, and the cause of the impairment would be irrelevant.

- So the pilot who has been subject to poor rostering practices, and let's face it - we all see that week in, week out - (or let's roll the clock forward a couple of years when the new EU FTLs will be in force);:ugh: and is fatigued - will find his job on the line?
We all know there are some pretty stupid rostering practices out there (but they might still be 'legal'). As fatigue can be insidious in its appearance, who will be held responsible if you fail the test?

[AnthonyGA]

So the pilot who has been subject to poor rostering practices … will find his job on the line?

Nope. First, a performance test detects impairment, but does not provide an explanation for the impairment. If a pilot failed the test, he would be taken off duty and tested in other ways, probably beginning with a drug test. One possible test for fatigue would be to have the pilot relax in a very comfy recliner, while he is asked to carry out some very boring mental task for 10-20 minutes; if he's tired, he'll be asleep in no time, but if he is fully rested, he'll be able to stay awake.

An isolated case of impairment due to fatigue would reflect poorly on the pilot. But fatigue due to abusive or improper scheduling practices on the part of the airline would produce a pattern of impairments that would unambiguously incriminate the airline. By requiring that impairments be reported to authorities and that pilots failing the test be immediately taken off duty (thus requiring replacements for each flight before which a pilot fails the test), the airlines would have an irresistible financial incentive to fix their scheduling policies in whatever way necessary to ensure that pilots are fully rested before each flight.

Right now, pilots are tempted to try to fly when they are too tired to do so, but if a performance test effectively stops tired pilots from flying whether they want to or not, fatigue becomes so costly so quickly that even the greediest airline would be forced to correct its problems, rather than lose millions on canceled and delayed flights. As it is today, airlines may abusively prevent pilots from getting the rest they need because they make more money that way—but if they start losing tens of thousands of dollars each time a pilot is too sleepy to fly safely, you can bet that their scheduling procedures would change overnight. Just follow the money.

[Flying Lawyer]

Jox
the facts above are true as entered in evidence.
It's unfortunate that your reference to the American Airlines pilot (Manchester 2007) is misleading in that it contains a fundamental error and omits a very important part of the story.



The F/O was accused of reporting for duty. ie An allegation, not a fact.
He always denied doing so.
When the captain was called to the security gate the F/O reported that he was unfit. However, airport security called the police.
(The F/O had travelled alone to the airport. He remembered telling the taxi-driver who took him that he would not be flying because he was unfit to do so. The taxi-driver was traced and confirmed the conversation.)


You omitted to mention that he was acquitted.

[Basil]

One possible test for fatigue would be to have the pilot relax in a very comfy recliner, while he is asked to carry out some very boring mental task for 10-20 minutes; if he's tired, he'll be asleep in no time,
Under the stress of possibly losing his employment; I don't think so. ;)

[jackx123]

big deal. even pax flying out to offshore rigs in norway are randomly tested

[The Real Pink Baron]

Statistics show that 25% of car accidents are caused by drink driving!
So 75% are caused by sober drivers??
Wake up all, let's use common sense.

[YorkshireTyke]

.........to have the pilot relax in a very comfy recliner, while he is asked to carry out some very boring mental task for 10-20 minutes...........

Mean - like in the front of an Airbus ?

[AnthonyGA]

Mean - like in the front of an Airbus?

Somewhat, yes. This would not be a coincidence. The recliner would be a deliberate amplification of the boredom that might arise in a cockpit. It's possible to override moderate fatigue briefly in a dire emergency (which incidentally is not true of impairment due to most drugs), but the safety issue is impairment during a normal flight, not impairment while spiraling into a mountainside leaving a trail of flame. Because highly automated flight can be boring and sleep-encouraging, the bar for rest and alertness must be set high.

[Escape Path]

Under the stress of possibly losing his employment; I don't think so.

Not really. If the tests are reported to the respective CAA and a large quantity of X Airlines pilots are deemed unfit due to fatigue, it could be an evidence to a poor rostering practise on behalf of the airline; they can't kick +50% of their pilots. I think AnthonyGA makes a very good point, hit the airline where it hurts: the pockets. There has to be a way to prove impairment and unfitness due to fatigue.

[Uncle Fred]

Perhaps someone could weigh in on this adjunct to the dissucsion of alcohol testing--namely that of testing for fatigue.

I flew with a gent once who could speak at length about a simple procedure measuing the dialation speed of the pupils as a marker of fatigue/impairment. I know if the United States a police officer will often shine a penlight at a suspects eyes to get a rough guess as to what he/she is dealing with. (I did say rough guess so I know it does not hold up for anything)

Apparently rather sophisitcated, but portable, devices are under consideration (or are in test) that can do this quite rapidly. From what he maintained, it gives a very decent idea as just how faitgued one is.

Now I realize that there are legions of complexities that are probably involved in testing pilots on this, but it does raise an interesting question regarding a fitness to fly scenario. I know it it not as onerous as how the Europeans and UK carriers can schedule, but one can fly 15 days straight from the US on 5 three day trips--thus 10 ocean crossings in those 15 days with no day off between trips. I have seen others assigned these types of schedules and fatigue was a factor that forced them to stand down. Again, a light schedule by what the Europeans do, but I use it as an example of a pattern that could induce enough fatigue to serve as a good test for such an experiment.

Anyone with medical experience that can comment on this? Is it viable? If so I can imagine that air carriers around the world would spend millions to fight it ever being implemented. How else could they run their schedules?

[AvMed.IN]

Uncle Fred,
validated tests for quantifying fatigue, though possible, are difficult to undertake, especially in view of multiple confounders. It is easy that the regulators and airlines redefine FDTL (EASA already has a draft notification in place) and the stakeholders, the pilots unions, are chosen to be equal partners.

At the individual level, each pilot has to be accountable but for him-/herself, including following hygiene factors like abstaining/acceptable consumption of alcohol (http://www.avmed.in/2011/01/ah-piloting-in-the-arms-of-bacchus/), adequate rest/sleep and willingness to owe it up, when not ship shape.

Or else, we may have crash due to probable sleep inertia (http://www.avmed.in/2011/01/lost-sleep-compromised-safety/), or deplorable acts by airline managements (http://www.avmed.in/2010/12/unsafe-deceit-air-india-extends-pilots-duty-hours/), without worrying about the outcome or aviation safety.

[gcal]

Ok a compromise:
Test all crew, before every flight, for alcohol and drug use.
At the same time test them for fatique, being tired, and a host of other human factors.
I'd heartily agree with that:D

[HighFlyerGirl]

Can anyone please point me to any ECA or IFALPA position papers on Alcohol Testing. Thanks

[Flying_phoenix]

Slightly off subject, but in terms of territory, I think I am right in recalling a situation in which Police officers did not board an El Al Flight in Heathrow due to confusion over territory etc to arrest a High Ranking Israeli officer....

I suppose it also had something to do with the El Al security guys on board as well....

Think it took so long, that in the end the plane indeed did return to its homeland. Believe in that case the Police actually did have the right to board that plane.

[heavy.airbourne]

EZ: When reaching taxiing speed during landing run the aircraft becomes the territory of the country it landed in (before: When leaving the runway...)

[david1300]

Pilot accused of flying drunk on US flight

As reported here on Friday 18 March: Gold Coast Breaking News :: News | goldcoast.com.au | Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia (http://tools.goldcoast.com.au/stories/45818201.php)

A UNITED Express pilot has been accused of flying drunk on a 2009 flight from Texas to Denver.

XYZ, of N, Virginia, was indicted by a federal grand jury in Denver in relation to the flight from Austin on December 8, 2009, The Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_17635827) said.
The US Attorney's office in Denver said the 32-year-old was the first officer, or co-pilot, on United Express Flight 7687, operated by Shuttle America.
The airline reportedly received a tip that Mr Cope was flying while intoxicated.
The indictment says he "unlawfully operated and directed the operation of a common carrier while under the influence of alcohol".
If convicted, Mr Z faces up to 15 years in jail and a fine of up to $250,000.
"The message this case sends is simple: Pilots who drink and fly will be prosecuted and face incarceration," US Attorney John Walsh said.
Shuttle America is a subsidiary of Indianapolis-based Republic Airways Holdings, which also owns Frontier Airlines.
Read more at The Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_17635827).

[Mr.Bloggs]

Big deal. No deaths ever caused by this issue. What is the fascination with the subject when so many bigger issues occupy us professionals? True pilots know all about it.

[Mahatma Kote]

Research undertaken within Europe has indicated that pilots have shown impairment in their ability to fly an ILS approach or to fly IFR, and even to perform routine VFR flight tasks while under the influence of alcohol, regardless of individual flying experience. The number of serious errors committed by pilots dramatically increases at or above concentrations of 0.04% blood alcohol. Some studies have shown decrements in pilot performance with blood alcohol concentrations as low as 0.025%.
I worked in the electronics industry a while ago. Included was the development of screening breathalisers - the sort cops use on the side of the road.

As part of the research we discovered that alcohol is a banned drug in some sports - for instance rifle shooting and archery. It's not because it's dangerous, it's because in small quantities it improves fine muscle control and reduces tremors.

The research I saw also showed that the probability of a car accident decreased with small amounts of alcohol. That is with say a can of beer in you, you are a safer driver than a teetotal.

Driving safety improves up to .025 and then declines to 0.05 where it is the same as 0.00. After 0.05 safety drops rapidly, and 0.08 is getting pretty unsafe.

The only other downside of small quantities of alcohol is it's a depressant, so you are more likely to nod off later.

[737incognito]

Since starting this thread, I also tried different route to obtain some info. Bellow is info received from Swedish ALPA which was confirmed in telephone call with Swedish CAA.



"Alcohol testing of air crew on duty (pilots and cabin crew) can be made in Swedish Airports on a random basis. It will be performed by police officers, in uniform or plain clothes as a “Breathalyzer check”.
It will in this case be performed prior to or after flight, either on board or in direct connection with crew boarding/disembarking the aircraft. It shall never be performed in front of passengers.
No reports / paperwork required if the test is negative. If, however, the test is positive the pilot or cabin attendant will be escorted to perform a so called “evidence test” with higher accuracy, either via a blood sample or breathalyzer. The limit is 0,02% alcohol in blood."

[Admiral346]

Having heard and read more and more about these "walk in and blow" tests, I have decided for myself that I will refuse it should it happen to me.

I am sick and tired of being criminalized and put under a general suspicion without anything indicating any fault on my side.

I am being security screened every damn time I enter my workplace so I don't hijack myself with my swiss army knife, and now I am being placed under the general assumption to be drunk at work, and they make ME prove MY OWN INNOCENCE!
In any civilized country the proof of burden is on the governments side, not on the subject's. This is going way too far, and as I have said, I will refuse the test if the police cannot give me any reason on why they would suspect me of being drunk. If I stumpled around doing the outsidecheck, fine, if they claim to smell booze on my breath, fine, but no way in hell am I going to give in for no reason at all.

[YorkshireTyke]

Well said, Sir !

Nil Illegitimum Carborundum. ( or similar )

[The Real Pink Baron]

Lets put a stop to this before it gets out of hand!
I was twice sniffed for explosives, in uniform, in front of my passengers???

[Admiral346]

Well, it might take getting stuck at some airport policestation in a foreign country, and it will take major delays up to cancellation of the flight. And I am sure my chiefpilot might want to have a word with me.
But if that's what it takes to get it out, so be it.

As I have said, I will not agree to a test without a proper reason being brought forward.

[jackx123]

As I have said, I will not agree to a test without a proper reason being brought forward.

Good luck. You cannot win against the government. Additional charges may be brought upon you such as refusing arrest, force against a police officer etc

Just get on with it and spend the 5 seconds it takes

[YorkshireTyke]

Additional charges may be brought..............

Undoubtedly, but if everyone did it, eventually World Travel would stop, and eventually "someone" would notice.

I'm not an alcoholic and I'm not a Fanatical Terrorist - get used to it.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Just get on with it and spend the 5 seconds it takes

Sadly it's thinking like that which has enabled the idiots to run the asylum, and is further proof that aircrew generally but pilots specifically are unable to organise themselves and fight this nonsense. I was about to say that we couldn't even organise a decent orgy in a brothel, until I recalled another era in Singapore:E

[fox niner]

When flight crew gets tested for alcohol consumption, that is sort of understandable.
Usually done at the gate, or somewhere in some office at the airport, right?
Well, listen to this....
A few years back a KLM B737 was taxiing out to its departure runway at AMS. It was stopped, ON THE TAXI TRACK, by the police, who entered the a/c and breathalized the flight crew.
Result: clear, no alcohol detected, continue your flight.
The crew was so fed up with the whole thing that they taxied it straight to the first available gate and reported not fit to fly.
Just to give everyone a warning where this all could lead to.

Cheers!

[cockney steve]

Just SLF, but common-sense dictates that the persons at the pointy-end are NOT going to allow a colleague to play with the controls in an impaired state.

That's unless they're ALL "3-sheets to the wind" and bravado overcomes the fear of being first to the scene of the accident.

The CC also have a horse in this race and are usually in a good position to be aware if their driver is under the weather.

I implicitly trust the self-monitoring of these highly -skilled professionals who have a huge investment in their chosen career.

The over-zealousness of egotistical "jobsworths" is unwarranted,poor CRM and highly unlikely to be cost-effective.

Their efforts would be much better directed at pax who'se excess consumption only manifests itself when the flight is already underway.

[JWP1938]

Re: Cockney Steve:

Wot 'ee sed.

[Reinhardt]

We are always tested BEFORE flight.

So the answer is simple - drink during the flight (my airline has beautiful bottles in First Class) ..... ?

If police comes in my aircraft, we will prevent htem from entering the flight deck, just to make tem understand they cannot do everything they want) and by contrast be ready to get their test somewhere else (in the galley)

When in the galley over the Indian Ocean, can we drink and split immediately after (french way of tasting wine ?)
I always smell the opened bottles, to make the flight attendants smile (always the same joke I know, but we have so many of them, I can afford this)

And... drinking in uniform at hotels bars .. how can passengers know from which airline we are ?
Sometimes when travelling as a turist, I get dress as a generic pilot (I still have plenty of fake or oudated ID, same for strips) and proceed to the bar for a couple of whiskies - is that allowed, am I liable to any persecution by anybody ?

[ShotOne]

The real worry here is who monitors the testing process and those testing? In some countries this is a real issue; an ex merchant navy colleague has described how, on arrival in certain West African countries, a can of oil would routinely be tipped near his ship. Soon after, an official with lots of gold braid would turn up, arrest the Captain for environmental crimes -pending payment of a large "fine". How long before alcohol testing becomes a similar cash generator?

[MPH]

Does anyone know how many airline accidents can be attributed to an intoxicated flight crew if, any?

[YorkshireTyke]

Does anyone know how many airline accidents can be attributed intoxicated flight crew if, any?

My guess would be - NONE.

Prove me wrong.

[Brian Abraham]

fox niner - another pathetic example of over sensitive crews acting in a childish manner because they think their egotistical self image has been affected. What cry babies.You really are a jerk SM. fox niner said,The crew was so fed up with the whole thingYou want mentally pissed off crew out there flying?

Did a pilot give your missus one? You are one sad individual. Get some treatment.

[overun]

Give him a break. What`s sauce for the goose is source for the gander.

Alcohol testing for "security" closely followed by passengers.

Mind, the spaniards running most of the uk main airports would cough.

[Mr.Bloggs]

So Shell Management, is this subject a hobby of yours? It really bores the pants of us (sober) pro pilots, but as long as it makes you feel good, just keep blathering on. However, if you were flight crew yourself, you would be in full agreement with the KL crew's actions. We know better.

[Heliport]

Mr Gibson from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority said there's no evidence that drug and alcohol use is a big problem in the aviation industry.

Mr Gibson is right about that. :ok:

[Shell Management]

I agree its not a big problem - unless it happens on a flight you are innocently on.;)

Its another hole in the cheese that can be plugged with good compliance monitoring.:ok:

[Bronx]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/BronxNYC/alcomedical.jpg

[compressor stall]

Yes, I can see how random or systematic testing of flight crew is really going to stop a cowboy in the middle of the desert.... :rolleyes:

[Shell Management]

Considering the poor safety record of medicine and its highly safety critical nature, thats an excellent idea.:ok:

The same for ambulance drivers too;)

BBC News - Ambulance driver admits drink charge over 999 crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-13078577)


An ambulance driver has admitted he was over the alcohol limit when he was involved in a seven-vehicle crash while answering a 999 call.
Four people were injured in the accident on the A52 near Bardills Island, Nottingham, on 23 October.

Robert Else pleaded guilty to driving with excess alcohol at the city's magistrates' court.

The 39-year-old, from Stapleford, was given a 12-month community order, including 200 hours of unpaid work.

He had initially denied the charge but changed his plea ahead of the hearing on Tuesday.

East Midlands Ambulance Service (EMAS) has confirmed Mr Else resigned with immediate effect at a disciplinary hearing held after the crash.

The ambulance was not carrying a patient at the time of the incident, it said.

[Hedge36]

According to the regs, I can't legally take on passengers who show signs of intoxication. I think it's time to start testing everyone who intends to set foot on an aircraft.

SM, I expect you to be fully in favor of this notion. It's in the best interest of safety, after all.

[Brian Abraham]

Managers, especially accountants, are responsible for making grave decisions these days (eg fuel loads, fatigue, crewing), so how about they be breathalyzed on reporting for work so we can be assured that the decisions they make are sober ones. Unlike what seems to be happening. :E

[wiggy]

Brian A,

I suspect SM will only be satisified that flying is truely safe when there is a (suitably breathalised) non-pilot senior manager riding jumpseat and carrying a cattle prod onboard every commercial flight.

[Pontius Navigator]

According to the regs, I can't legally take on passengers who show signs of intoxication.

I was pax on an aircraft out of Cyprus. Two would be pax were high on something and had been disruptive and abusive at the gate. They were segregated from the other pax but allowed to go to the aircraft.

Another pax pointed them out to the snr FA and she denied boarding.

Now it got interesting.

The crew would not allow them to board and the Cypriots wanted shot of them from Cyprus.

It was a greek stand-off until the crew eventually won. Don't know the upshot but we were then delayed an hour while the baggage was offloaded.

Must say, full marks to the baggage handlers finding two bags in hundreds on the apron in the dark.

[Mark R. Beacon]

Absolutely! And to follow on, would it be reasonable for Flight Crews to expect the testing officers to have themselves been tested? Can crews require that a testing officer produce a written confirmation of being sober when reporting for duty? If this is not produced, can crews demand that the testing officer undergo an alcohol test there and then to demonstrate fitness to administer alcohol tests? Maybe it's time for some clear legislation on this matter.

[Brian Abraham]

I suspect SM will only be satisified that flying is truely safe when there is a (suitably breathalised) non-pilot senior manager riding jumpseat and carrying a cattle prod onboard every commercial flight. No chance wiggy. He would then be held directly responsible should thing go tits up, with CVR evidence supporting the fact. And remember SMelly wants a camera in the cockpit as well recording every move. Not much teflon to be had there (for management presence on the flight deck). Management always maintains a position of plausible denyability. It was frowned upon in Esso to commit anything contentious to print - computer or hardcopy. Could come back and bite in any discovery process.

[Shell Management]

I see nothing wrong with all professionals, managers included, being held accounatable for their performance. :ok: So no one who is competence and compliant should be worried about a little compliance monitoring. The alternative is complacent, anarchic, unsafe, confusion.:ugh:

[overun]

what about stop looking for profit from booze around aircraft ?

A sensible stand would be if you`re your not fit to drive you`re not fit to travel.

[brakedwell]

Absolutely! And to follow on, would it be reasonable for Flight Crews to expect the testing officers to have themselves been tested? Can crews require that a testing officer produce a written confirmation of being sober when reporting for duty? If this is not produced, can crews demand that the testing officer undergo an alcohol test there and then to demonstrate fitness to administer alcohol tests? Maybe it's time for some clear legislation on this matter.

And that the testing officer testing the testing officer has undergone testing himself :E:E

Thank god for retirement!

[homesick rae]

I recall, when flying with a now defunct charter operator, that I had to report a fellow crew member who was denied boarding to pax back to LGW from NCL. We had flown up a couple of days earlier with a flight the following day to Corfu, arriving back in the wee hours. We all decided to have a couple beers to wind down before getting some kip for our afternoon flight back South...except one of the CC decided to have a few more and went onto the cognacs. I came down in the afternoon and he was still sitting drinking. As soon as he stood up, and wobbled, I warned him he might get refused. He did. As SCCM I spoke with the ground staff who said he could possibly get on the next flight if he sorted himself out. We also had the problem of a report from the ground staff being submitted. After an hour, Special Branch had been called as he had been a bit obnoxious and aggressive. Unfortunately, I was instructed to get his ID and he was suspended with immediate effect. He was actually a Purser too but I was lead due to seniority. It was sad to see but he certainly controlled his own destiny - or should I say, the booze did.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Thank god for retirement!

I wish I still had a job.

I'd get a day off once a week !

[126.9]

I think it's a great idea. Pilots, politicians, policeman, prostitutes, professionals, passengers, and public servants should all be alcohol and proficiency tested - every six months. :ok:

[YorkshireTyke]

.............but he certainly controlled his own destiny - or should I say, the booze did.

Q.E.D. ( Self inflicted injury.)

[Admiral346]

"Rechtsstaat", a german word that translates to "constitutional state" or "rule of the law" according to my dictionary is what this is about.
It is about having to prove your innocence. It is about police walking up to you and accusing you of something, and you as subject to the law having to prove it wrong. It is about randomness of gouvernmental powers, infringing on the rights of an individuum.

The testing might be seen as reasonable, I myself am almost convinced it is. But this is only the beginning of a little tear in a system that will go really bad if allowed to become a large rip. Believe me, we in Germany have been through this.

You cannot allow the authorities to continue this.

If I, like anyone, make a mistake that can be traced back to being intoxicated (and no, it doesn't always end in a crash; the professionals out there will know the relation between incident - accident - catastrophy), I shall be held responsible for negligent behaviour, manslaughter or whatever. And I will have to stand trial and take a punishment. But don't accuse me beforehand.

[ExSp33db1rd]

.........But don't accuse me beforehand.

and a previous poster .........

I'm not an alcoholic and I'm not a Fanatical Terrorist - get used to it.

Totally agree.

I recently tested positive at a recent road stop, and I hadn't had an alcoholic drink. The (lady) police hofficer suggested that it might be my aftershave that was being sensed ( no, I don't drink the stuff ! ) and admitted that her own make-up occasionally set off their gadget.

Lay off.

[Shell Management]

In other industries the international industry body has a standard for management to apply.:ok:
http://www.ogp.org.uk/pubs/445.pdf
Time for IATA to act to restore public confidence?

[linmar]

Maybe this has already been posted earlier in the thread since I didn't read all the pages. But the question was raised in the first three pages why the Swedish police are testing arriving crews and not departing. The law in Sweden was changed 1st of September last year and now is similar to the laws that applies to driving.

The limit for flying is now 0,2 promille of blood or 0,10 milligram of alcohol per liter of your breath. The penalty for this offense is either a fine or imprisonment for a maximum of six months. Since there has been no reports of pilots being over the limit there is still no way to know what a court will sentence.

The next limit is 1,0 promille of alcohol in your blood or 0,50 milligram of alcohol per liter of your breath. In this case it is considered a serious offense and the maximum penalty is 2 years imprisonment.

In order to apply the above laws one obviously has to have broken them. Being over the limit as departing crew wouldn't be considered as breaking the law, since there is no law against intending to fly over the limit. In case you were to show up over the limit at your aircraft the only thing the police can do is to wait and make sure that you don't depart while having more than 0,2 promille in your blood.

Arriving over the limit is obviously another case and with the new law Swedish police are now allowed to randomly test pilots which wasn't the case before when they could only test crew when there was already a suspicion that they were under the influence.

Another thing worth to mention is that Swedish police are equipped with quite sophisticated breathalyzers that are considered reliable enough to be used in a trial. I don't know if they are used by the airport police, but if they are you can't deny the result and demand a blood test which was the case a few years back.

[FlyingCroc]

Now seriously, does this make sense to breathalize crew on arriving? They do this in my company, but after arriving let's say a shorter flight like 4 hours the crew departing must have been stone drunk? :eek:

[PA28Viking]

Linmar wrote
In order to apply the above laws one obviously has to have broken them. Being over the limit as departing crew wouldn't be considered as breaking the law, since there is no law against intending to fly over the limit. In case you were to show up over the limit at your aircraft the only thing the police can do is to wait and make sure that you don't depart while having more than 0,2 promille in your blood.

Really? I think in most other countries you are considered to be 'flying' from when you report for work and start planning the flight. Long before you take your seat on the flight deck.

[stuckgear]

In other industries the international industry body has a standard for management to apply.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
http://www.ogp.org.uk/pubs/445.pdf
Time for IATA to act to restore public confidence?


SM, your referenced document also includes:

Analgesics (paracetamol, iboprofen)
Anthistamines
Codeine
Cough Medicines
Nicotine

As well as hydrocarbons, petrol/gasoline/solvents etc. it would be interesting to see MRO engineers getting busted for substance abuse due to exposure to such substances.

[Thunderpants]

Avaiton has changed almost beyond recognition over the last couple of decades, and I think this is going to require a whole new 'mindset' from the next generation of flight crew.

Pointless and offensive security screenings, being monitored from the moment you show up for work, drugs and alcohol testing, and the fact that converstions on the flight deck are no longer private, will require us all adopt a very different work attitude.

Those of us whom remember the 'good ole' days, are going to have the hardest time with all this I suspect.

[Shell Management]

That will be the good old days before CRM when we had a hull loss every week?:ugh:

[ExSp33db1rd]

That will be the good old days before CRM when we had a hull loss every week?

and pilots who flew aeroplanes instead of punching buttons on computers.

Good Ole Days indeed.

[Level100]

Avaiton has changed almost beyond recognition over the last couple of decades, and I think this is going to require a whole new 'mindset' from the next generation of flight crew.

Pointless and offensive security screenings, being monitored from the moment you show up for work, drugs and alcohol testing, and the fact that converstions on the flight deck are no longer private, will require us all adopt a very different work attitude.and

That will be the good old days before CRM when we had a hull loss every weekThunder, Shell,
I think you both are right in a way. Of course many things in the "good ole" needed improvement and corrective action. Like ATC getting a necessity when the first liners run into each others in the 50s. The question that rises Thunder for me, at least in between the lines, is the following: does a corrective/protective action become [more] counterproductive from certain moment on?
I would think "yes" in a ever changing world.
Contineous update and adaption ("mitigation" some call it) is the required answer, and yes I would agree with Thunder that certain measures have become pointless and with Shell that CRM was the most fantastic safety breaktrough.

Cheers, Gentlemen

[pegasus-9]

You will find the Swedish police were just being polite

[linmar]

Really? I think in most other countries you are considered to be 'flying' from when you report for work and start planning the flight. Long before you take your seat on the flight deck.

Yes, the Swedish law is pretty clear on that point. You're not flying under the influence nor driving under the influence unless you really are doing just that. The exact phrasing is; "A person who manouvers an aircraft..."

This is only applicaple for criminal law where you can be sentenced to fines or prison.

For holders of a license issued by the Swedish CAA it is of course another case . It is a lot easier for the CAA to suspend a holders license if the holder has been irresponsible using alcohol, not only in connection with duty but anytime. I am not aware of any such case regarding a flight crew license, but I would suspect the criteria would be more or less the same as for a drivers license, maybe even harder. Usually, in Sweden, if you are arrested for drunkeness in public 2-3 times in a short period of time (1-2 years) your drivers license will be suspended and you will be subject to rehabilitation actions in order to regain your license.

But, the Swedish CAA can of course only take action on holders of licenses issued by the same and therefore the new law makes it easier for the justice system to prevent 'drinking and flying' and also to apprehend offenders.

[Heliport]

It is clearly a bad week for United
And a good week for you. :rolleyes:

[RoyHudd]

Kindly explain what "poor judgement" the Captain exercised during the flight, before calling for his head. From the newspaper article, no facts are given as to the operation of the first flight, save that the Captain was PF.

Sensationalism has no place in a serious subject like aviation safety, and newspaper articles are full of it. They appear to be the basis for your opinions, which you know I disagree with.

[PilotsAnonymous]

And...why is it unacceptable for the Police to come into your cockpit and ask for a specimen of breath?, its just like a random roadside breath test leading upto Xmas, if u have nothing to hide, why is it a problem???

Apart from flight crew, nobody has any business being on the flight deck. Especially during flight preparation. Breathalizer tests are fine, BEFORE I enter the flight deck. Once I'm in the aircraft it is my aircraft, my crew, my responsibility.

[mustafagander]

Here we have a solution desperately seeking a problem.

How many times has alcohol been a significant factor in any aircraft accident or incident??

Facts only please.

[Black Pudding]

I now work in the Middle East and been on line since January. Been breathalysed 6 times in the crew room so far. We have a zero tollerance at the airline I am now at and I have no problems with that. If you have nothing to worry about, why the fuss.

[Mr.Bloggs]

Breathalysed every month on average, and you think that's ok? How about a rectal drug swab? If you don't do drugs, then nothing to worry about, right?

You need to see where this is all going, instead of meekly submitting to nonsense like frequent breath tests. Grow up, man.

[Hedge36]

And yes mustapha, the NTSB database is filled with cases were licence holders have abused substances and come to a sticky end, often with tragic consequences for innocent people.


I've yet to find one in the database where there would have been an opportunity to breathalyze the pilot (licensed or otherwise) prior to the flight. Care to cite one or a few?

[Flying Lawyer]

mustafagander Here we have a solution desperately seeking a problem.
Well said. :ok:

I notice you invite Shell Management to provide facts to support his assertions.
Good luck. You might succeed but countless others, on a variety of topics in various PPRuNe forums, have failed.
Most of us count ourselves lucky if we can claim an expertise in one area. SM is one of those very fortunate people who is an expert on everything.

[PA28Viking]

Alcohol and drugs kill in traffic.

Pilots get court over the limit reporting for duty or at the controls all over the world on a regular basis.

Why do people insist that there most be burning aircraft and dead bodies lying around before the dots can be connected?

[Escape Path]

You need to see where this is all going, instead of meekly submitting to nonsense like frequent breath tests. Grow up, man.

Thing is, though, there have been pilots testing positive on breathalyser tests. Taking a precautionary point of view (i.e. the authority's point of view), what's stopping the rest of us from showing up to the airport in similar conditions?

Let's all get a bit sensible and stop being so rigid about this. It's no big deal.

[ExSp33db1rd]

SM is one of those very fortunate people who is an expert on everything.

'sbeen said before .... " X is an unknown quantity, a spurt is a drip under pressure"

QED

[BandAide]

I support random drug and alcohol testing. I think about 1% of pilots checking in for work should be tested. That's a high enough level to deter coming to work impaired, which is the objective.

There is no room for impaired pilots in the cockpit - period.

My biggest concerns are false readings and third party mischief such as giving a pilot a marijuana brownie, which has been done by a vindictive ex, who then reported the pilot.

[Not]

Shell management, if you are indeed management at Shell, please tell me that you respect your pilots as valuable assets in your safety culture. That you treat them accordingly. Provide them with productive and descent rosters conducive to both a professional and personal life and an above industry average salary cheque that reflects the constant demands you, if you are indeed management, put on your flight crews.

If you do indeed provide such terms then you might have at least an anorexic argument to support your views that random alcohol and drug testing is ok. Something along the lines of – IF I offer you the world I expect your world in return.

If a pilot does not appear to be under the influence then he is most likely not. Random testing will not stop those with a problem and only picks up the odd few who have a problem and have not been spotted by their colleagues. Company safety culture and openness is a far more effective tool. But as I have said, if you are an esteemed member of management you would understand such basic human factors points as these.

I am not expecting a response. As this person can’t even be bothered to correct mistakes in his own posts –

“It is clearly a bad week for United with a big fine for major failings in their dandom drug and alcohol screeining programme.”

Few glasses of wine before posting mate? Fatigue after flying an antisocial roster pattern? Or just another arrogant muppet with a chip on his shoulder that he is not as good an operator as those he purports to be part of the management structure for?

If you employ the bottom of the barrel then maybe you have a point. But surely you employ referenced and assessed professionals? Well then your company safety culture and those that dispatch and share the flight deck with an individual that may have a problem, should be enough to identify and HELP those that may present a risk. After all that is one of the reasons we have 2 crew ops and CRM n’est ce pas?

Or are you just a little troll?

Anybody flying today knows that fatigue is a far more ingrained, endemic and serious a problem affecting far more pilots than alcohol and drug taking.

Management, listen to your pilots and concentrate on the real issues.

This is nothing more than a witch hunt

[heavy.airbourne]

Where is the requirement for physicians to be drug tested before they cut open live human bodies, dispatchers planning flights thru typhoons, syrian generals cutting loose snipers and tanks upon freedom fighters. I as a pilot am getting fed up by aviation analphabets trying to regulate pilots while the whole world is spinning loose. This reminds me of old nannies controlling the angle of their china pets as the only means of having an influence upon their own lifes.
(I pray for the professional pilots rumor network to get rid of the non professional aviation nerds.:yuk:)

[stepwilk]

(I pray for the professional pilots rumor network to get rid of the non professional aviation nerds.)

Problem is, how do we do it? Certificate number required? Easy to lie about that and ratings, etc. I would suggest that the best that can be done is to require posters--not lurkers--to fill out full and proper profiles. No listing "east of the sun and west of the moon" as a location, no listing "doing what I enjoy" as a profession.

I don't know if there's an algorithm that can verify that such is done or not...

[Desert185]

Avaiton has changed almost beyond recognition over the last couple of decades, and I think this is going to require a whole new 'mindset' from the next generation of flight crew.

Pointless and offensive security screenings, being monitored from the moment you show up for work, drugs and alcohol testing, and the fact that converstions on the flight deck are no longer private, will require us all adopt a very different work attitude.

Those of us whom remember the 'good ole' days, are going to have the hardest time with all this I suspect.


When I was an expat crewmember with Iran Air in the 70's, the purser would serve us champagne or a beer on the last leg's taxi in, along with two beers in a barf bag for the ride home (they drove us home in a crew car). Yes...times have changed.

I'm now retired from the airlines, but when the company gave us a random drug check, it was always postflight, to include an alcohol check. I always thought the check should be before the flight, rather than 8-12 hours later at block in. The company also stopped us from carrying a crew bottle years ago.

[RoyHudd]

Bit stupid to accept a beer/champagne post-flight if a possible test was about to be administered? Or maybe you just declined the offer in which case, why mention it?

Try to argue your case more coherently and avoid being classified alongside the aforementioned and rather feeble SM.

[Basil]

In the RAF, a glass of wine with lunch whilst refuelling in France was the norm.
In civil aviation, drinks on chox was the norm.
As many cigs as you like in flight was the norm.

Which of the foregoing, to my knowledge, caused an incident?




Ans: No 3. Check O2 mask OFF!!

[Snoop]

Eeerrrr Roy mate, if you know your aviation history, folklore and actual practice then you would know that this was common place back then. Alcohol and drug testing was not. Management and flight crew knew who had a problem and it was delt with accordingly and discretely.

I believe that discussing the changes in the practice of identifying and dealing with any issues with flight crew is the point of this thread.

Hull loses due to intoxication at the controls of any major western European carrier - No idea 'cos I haven't heard of any.

As far as I know (which isn't far) it was management who stopped the crew bus beers, for accountancy reasons. :ugh: Once the chocks are in, engines shut down, passengers disembarked and hotel beckoning, nothing wrong with a post flight beer! :ok: