Uni or not? (Merged 2013) [Archive]

4015

22nd Feb 2011, 15:03

CEH

22nd Feb 2011, 15:46

I support what 4015, I have degree in computer security and in my personal opinion (not that it matters) I would say I have enough years of professional experience in same area of my study (6 years), and now I'll hopefully get my ATPL CPL/IR.... =)

And I wont stop there, once I get a job in any airline, and started my duty, I might do a distance part-time Masters of Science too.

Go for the University option first then think about flying, build your foundation/grounds friend.

Wish you all the best

AJ1990

22nd Feb 2011, 16:15

I wouldn't stress over your A-Level subjects much myleshigh. Geology, biology, ICT, and Politics are all solid subjects and I'm sure future employers would prefer you to have good grades in subjects you excel in rather than having poor grades in ones you don't. Are you planning on dropping a subject or sticking to all four the whole way? Four A-Levels would distinguish you to some extent.

As regards to university? It's a completely personal decision I'd say. When I was 16 I decided not to go through the whole UCAS thing - the thought of spending 3-4 years accruing vast amounts of debt and not getting into flying wasn't to my taste. Uni is a great experience and I totally agree with 4015. The only thing I disagree on is the level of maturity in students as against those who haven't gone through the experience. My friends at uni receive big lumps of money every so often covering all of their education and accomodation/maintenance expenses from the government. Those in the real world have to work for such luxuries :}. It's still a fantastic experience though so I'd always tell people to go for it :ok:.

There are other options - I study via distance learning with the Open University whilst working and flying at the same time. Just an idea - mite be worth considering ;)

lander66

22nd Feb 2011, 16:16

Just like to say that I finished my A Levels in July and decided not to go to uni. Instead I got a job, albeit a low-level job in order to start my flying training. I am currently training for my PPL. I am not saying I will never go to uni but I know that a degree would not directly help me achieve my goals. I personally believe that having a full-time job gives you vital life experience as well.

My second point is that a very low percentage of uni leavers are getting that "decent job". They are either remaining unemployed or just getting a low-level job such as mine (after months of searching) which doesn't require a degree in the first place. Unemployment figures are through the roof and I am very grateful for the job I have and would much rather be in my position now on my way to gaining a PPL than have no flying experience, a degree which would not be beneficial in my first-choice career and a long wait for a semi-decent job.

I'd like to think airlines would appreciate the fact that I spend the vast majority of my wages on flying as opposed to getting pissed every night. That must show some level of maturity...

As for a back-up career, if I think of another job I can be really enthusiastic about such as being a pilot, then I might risk spending £35,000+ on a degree. I think it is just plain stupid to jump straight into uni as many do, without really knowing what they want to do afterwards.

Plus who's to say that the only way of getting a decent back up career is through uni, there are so many options and nearly all of them are much cheaper than a degree.

AJ1990

22nd Feb 2011, 16:25

Totally agree Lander! When I was at Sixth Form it was like Uni was the only option - I could probably count the number of those who went straight into work on my hands (possibly toes aswell but you get the idea ;)). There is a part of me which thinks the increase in tuition fees won't be such a bad thing - there's alot of people going to uni for whom the main reason for going is the experince which seems to be lowering the value of degrees personally.

ei-flyer

22nd Feb 2011, 16:41

Listen carefully, because follows some very good advice -

Forget uni, and don't go straight into work.

Go to college as soon as you've finished your AS Levels (so long as you're below the age of 19 it doesn't matter) and learn a trade, preferably something like plumbing, and then extend that to gas/heating or whatever.

Why? Here's why -

Go straight into work - guaranteed £800-1400 ish a month after tax for the next X amount of years. You think it's easy to save off that amount of money (even living at home)... It isn't.

Go to uni - lose three years and put yourself in unnecessary debt. And THEN you'll likely be earning anything from £15-30000 per annum starting salary. Ok, bit better.

Or - learn a trade for five years supported by an apprenticeship. I did it that way, and at age 21 I was taking home £40,000 a year. After tax. The amount of extra 'cold cash' you develop in that line of work is immense. Used to get an extra £100-150 a day JUST for the scrap metal I took back home to the scrapyard. That doesn't include the £140 base pay for the job. That was taxed, though.

By 23 I'd put myself through the rest of flight training and flying for a loco carrier we all know. Paid for the type rating too. No debt, was living at home.

A lot of people will tell you to go to uni as a 'fallback'. A fallback? Helloooo, there's hardly any jobs anywhere, not just in aviation. But when yer loo goes kerplunk, that needs fixing. Tradesmen are always in demand and the money is good. Also, unlike a lot of academially qualified positions, you can jump straight back into it in the future should you require, as opposed to going through a lengthy application process. It's because having a trade is a more worthy skill to most people (customers) than a degree.

I am biased - when I was 14/15 I was all for uni. Was a math-head personally, but realised that could only take me so far.

It can be difficult while still at school, but really take a good hard look at the real world of moneymaking, and it's easy to see.

Good luck :ok:

quick edit - I know a lot of people avoid college because it's where all the 'losers' go. That tw@t who sits on the backrow at school, dim as ****, will always answer 'college' when asked what they're gonna do. The bright ones always say 'uni'. Be under no illusion, college isn't in some way 'easier', and aforementioned tw@t will probably never become a plumber, electrician, or whatever. Will piss their EMA up the wall, not bother studying the theory, and get kicked off the course. Food for thought.

lander66

22nd Feb 2011, 18:00

AJ1990 - Exactly! That's how it was for me at Sixth Form, they spoke as if they pretty much assumed everyone was going to uni. It gave me some satisfaction knowing that I would be "tainting" their records by going straight to work :8 And yes, degrees certainly seem to be slightly devalued by the fact that everyone does it just for the hell of it.

ei-flyer - Fair enough, learning a trade through college and doing an apprenticeship can probably get you earning more, faster than going to uni. I think you were one of the only ones earning £40,000 by the age of 21 through an apprenticeship but good on ya for doing it! :ok: I think it is possible to get semi-decent earnings by going straight to work as well though, working your way up the ladder. I agree with you that it is hard to save though! Although as long as I earn enough to fly every week I feel I am on target.

MightyDucks

22nd Feb 2011, 18:17

Ei-flyer,

I'm not sure where people are going to get an apprenticeship these days. I did an apprenticeship and never made anything like that kind of money and even fully qualified i still don't. I do agree however that getting a job is a good idea however its not going to be for some people. Its hard going straight from the easy life of school into working hard for what will prob be crappy money (To stat of with anyway

ei-flyer

22nd Feb 2011, 19:32

lander66, I understand where you're coming from, and to clarify, no way am I attempting to brag about what I was earning, but I was lucky to be 'carried' through the course on the back of a local, family run company that reward their staff very well. I have friends still in the trade, and as an employee, they are earning around £700 per week typically, a lot less than I claim myself, but it's reliable money. Plus, I'm registered gas safe (whatever that means these days) and was a 'heating engineer' as opposed to a plain leaf plumber (took 5 years from starting college), which probably explains the differences in remuneration. And knowing a good scrappy!

MightyDucks, regarding getting an apprenticeship, It's been too long since I did it to give an accurate representation of the situation now, however have heard on Radio 1 that the government are trying to create 100,000 apprenticeships. No idea where, no idea when, no idea what industry, but I happened to catch it on the off chance. Might be worth looking into. Also, good point about the crappy money - I was paid £50 a week by the company I was apprentice to. Worth it in the end though!

I'm only 25, but I know that if I hadn't learnt a trade, and certainly if I'd gone to university, I wouldn't be flying professionally now, but that's more down to the recession and the way the timings would have worked out. It happened for me, and I'm just trying to pass this on to people still in school because I know it works. I genuinely believe it's the most surefire way to earn half decent money after leaving school.

Anyway, don't wanna hijack this thread too much, so I'l shut up now :ok:

p.s. added bonus - I can do me own plumbing, only cost being materials at wholesale price... The wife/girlfriend/partner will be forever grateful!!! :p

MightyDucks

23rd Feb 2011, 17:51

I wouldn't be listening too closely to the government. I am glad i have something to fall back on if i do go ahead with the training.

myleshigh

23rd Feb 2011, 18:42

Thanks everyone for the advice and comments - I really appreciate it. This has certainly given me some new options to think about other than university which seems to be the only option suggested by my sixth form (and family for that matter).

lander66

23rd Feb 2011, 21:40

Get a degree, a well paid job...then pay off your uni debt and start paying for your initial training using your salary

I think this is what everyone assumes will happen when they go to university. They think it assures them a nice well paid job. Do you know how long it takes most people to pay off uni debt (soon to be £35,000+ lest we forget)? A lot longer than a few years. The chances are you will end up with a low-pay job to start with just like everyone who didn't go to university. The ceilings may be higher but you still need to start on the ground floor.

Also as for a low-paid job being unimpressive, its what you do with the money that counts. Someone on a low-paid job who manages to save their money effectively for pilot training may impress interviewers just as much as someone who has got a degree and a slightly higher salary.

lander66

23rd Feb 2011, 22:15

Yes the potential earnings of degree holders are much higher I accept that. Its all to do with current conditions though. At the moment unemployment figures are rising and even finding an £18,000 job is going to be tough, let alone £50,000... With more people holding degrees there is more competition hence more jobless. I'd like to know what the figures are for employment of uni leavers last year, not great I'd imagine.

If I was planning on getting a degree I might hold my horses for a year or two and see how things are looking then.

Also I think that everybody should do some "menial" jobs at some point in their lives because more often than not it provides valuable experience of hard, stressful work and a good sense of perspective for when you make it to your dream job.

Anyway enough out of me, I have said my piece (probably a few times too many). Whether you do uni or not good luck to ya! :ok:

AJ1990

23rd Feb 2011, 22:59

Also I think that everybody should do some "menial" jobs at some point in their lives because more often than not it provides valuable experience of hard, stressful work and a good sense of perspective for when you make it to your dream job.

I'm self-employed but also have the pleasure of working part-time in housekeeping at a certain chain of purple hotels endorsed by Lenny Henry. When I'm at 2,500ft looking at everybody bumbling along with the monotony of life, I'm very grateful that I'm not down there cleaning up the remains of a dirty weekend. I enjoy working - you get a better sense of the 'real' world and a greater appreciation of aviation and all its' priviliges. When I read about 19 year olds jumping straight in to the airlines I wonder just how much they truely appreciate it? I guess it all comes down to perspective...

Wee Weasley Welshman

24th Feb 2011, 05:24

If you need a degree to 'fall back on' in the future then do the degree in the future as a mature student. Degrees are deeply unimpressive these days and for £30k represent poor value. I've got several but I shan't be encouraging my children down that route.

WWW

captainsuperstorm

24th Feb 2011, 06:03

I know a guy who went for his license, 20 yo. excited to be apilot.
now he has nothing, no job, no money, and lives with dad and mom money who are upset.he lives with his girlfriend money.
i have other friends, the same, try to drive taxi ortesco,..

i got a degree, ahah,can work in many field and make good money.
just listen the poor idiots who tell you degree is useless,and you will finish yourself homeless under a bridge like www.

whatever i say, is useless,most youg brainless guys dream to be a pilot and prefer to finish in the streets just for the flying dream.

ei-flyer

24th Feb 2011, 06:48

WWW,

Only prob with that being, in a few years you might have a family who unfortunately are a lot more attention demanding than studying an open university degree 'on the side' so to speak!

captainsuperstorm, what a stupid response. I know people like that too. They all work though. A lot of complaints I hear about the lack of unskilled jobs - what rubbish, I have friends who scoured jobcentre for one day and were working within a week. I can't understand how people end up living off their parents or the government for so long. Unless of course, that suits them.

giggitygiggity

24th Feb 2011, 07:13

The university experience can be a very valuable one. I got no grants or parental handouts. My student loan did not even cover the accommodation costs, to feed myself each semester I worked in a bar during term time, during the holidays I worked full-time at home. A/My degree is irrelevant and not relevant to the job; but the life experience isn't. My CV demonstrates that I am not workshy. Living on your own, managing your finances are all experience/skills that will have to be drawn upon during training so naturally it can be a benefit.

Of course, this experience can be gained in full-time work/apprenticeships etc. but it is worth trying to do it on you own so you have something to talk about at the eventual interviews. If you can show you have worked hard in the past pursuing your goals, a prospective employer or training organisation should hopefully be convinced you are worth taking a chance on as you have shown you are determined to succeed.

It is really up to you as to which path you go down, work hard for your A-Levels and perhaps give it a year before you sign up with a university as it is £30,000 you could seriously do without out owing!

captainsuperstorm, what a stupid response.I don't think Mr Superstorm has written an intelligent response during his time here. Is there a way I can ignore his comments?

whatever i say, is uselessI take it back, this is the first sensible thing he has said.

Poeli

24th Feb 2011, 07:27

The problem in the UK is that uni and college are that expensive. 30k pounds for a degree is ridicilous. I was in the same situation as you, wondering what to do, get an extra master degree or go to work with my bachelor degree.
I can study for around 1000€ a year, which is 2000 in total for the master degree giving the higher pay I would get with a job, it's well worth it...
But investing 30k pounds is a lot of money... Never thought about doing a apprenticeship? I know virgin atlantic did one for technical staff.
This is really a though one for me, I wouldn't know what to do. Try to find a decent job and see how it fits you. If you don't like it you still can go to uni....
Good luck!

Wee Weasley Welshman

24th Feb 2011, 12:13

just listen the poor idiots who tell you degree is useless,and you will finish yourself homeless under a bridge like www.

Evidently your degree was not in English.

Seriously chaps. The three years you spend in University can be equally life enhancing, character building or CV impressing doing something other than the default option of going to some average Uni to do some average degree. Go be a snowboarding instructor, charted yacht crew, buy an ice cream van, work in a bar in Lima, take Thailand tourists on elephant rides - whatever.

Much more likely to tweak my interest at interview.

Much more fun.

Much less debt.

I've flown with FO's which range from guys who left school at 15 to shear sheep in the outback to guys with double firsts from Cambridge. It matters not.

Cron

24th Feb 2011, 13:02

Degrees are deeply unimpressive these days

A lot of truth in that. Part-time degrees (such as a Foundation Degree)however have a number of things going for them.

They differentiate you from the crowd because you are working and studying at the same time - no propping up the bar in the Uni most nights.

They are much, much cheaper then full-time degrees.

Recent funding moves now make it possible to pay fees after completion and when you are earning over £xxx.

Most offer a top up route to BSc/BA etc also on a part time basis.

AJ1990

24th Feb 2011, 16:28

At the Open University, if your household income is below the threshold (£28,065) you get a significant amount of financial support and grants. I can see Distance Learning and part-time education really picking up in the next couple of years. Total cost of an OU degree is approx £3,600 and you can take just about as long as you like depending on the subject. Many of the degrees are recognised by proffesional bodies and by the looks of it you'll even have access to student loans* :ok:I really should start working for the OU... :}

*Government confirms details of loans for part timers | Platform | Open University (http://www8.open.ac.uk/platform/news-and-features/government-confirms-details-loans-part-timers-0)

charliegolf

24th Feb 2011, 17:10

Lots of good advice here (and some not so good).

I would only add: consider a deferrment- you can request one. It's more than a gap year decision, it's a place at uni guaranteed. In that year you can work, fly, and get a sense of perspective.

You're young enough to 'waste' all your dosh on flying- you have no other responsibilities. That might all be different in 5 years, family, house etc.

fabbe92

24th Feb 2011, 21:06

I am in the same position. Finishing Upper Secondary in June and after doing some research, I´ve decided that 3 years at uni before flight training is the best option in many aspects. However, I am worried about one thing. The industry hit rock bottom a year ago and it seems things are slowly starting to pick up again. Very slowly, that is! Anyway, I am affraid that by heading off to uni now instead of training, considering I have my PPL and 70 hours, I will be a qualified pilot in 2016. What if during this time, the industry has been shining a bit again with job opportunities and by the time I´m qualified, we enter a new depresion?

If uni was not an option for me, I would certanily consider starting training now because it seems to be good timing for it.

Fraser19

12th Oct 2013, 17:40

Hi there

I'm a scottish student in my last year of high school, who wouldn't pay for university and could possibly do something like mechanical engineering at Heriot Watt University.

I'm not sure if I should do this before staring an ATPL course at somewhere like CTC or OAA. Integrated is what I've been to told do by a BA pilot. So when I leave school I'll be just nearly 18. Is it too young to bother doing my ATPL and would be better to come back after I do something like a degree or do you think I should just go for it straight out of high school?

(not wanting to start a debate why I should do modular, doesn't appeal to me and been advised to do integrated. So no point wasting your time debating whats better and so on)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

mad_jock

12th Oct 2013, 18:34

If you can get onto a tagged scheme/cadetship or wings course go straight to flying.

If you can't, go to Uni get some life experience and continue to apply for the schemes.

The biggest issue your going to have is getting the capital to finance it all.

And don't be surprised if you do engineering that your attitude towards the direction of training changes as well.

Mech eng is a good mathematical problem solving degree and is good for many different careers. It will set you up if thing don't go the way you plan. But its one of these subjects that you really have to do an apprenticeship working before its of any use. And you have to stay current to be employable.

When I was looking for my degree I did have a look at Brewing Engineering at Heriot Watt which got missed off the UCAS form basically because of parental pressure. In second year I discovered that brewing Engineers are like Hens teeth. And its not just beer that they deal with. It was one of the higher earners of engineering graduates.

I like the fact your planning to move away from Glasgow. All to many stay at home and miss half of the learning you do at university.

Everyone has the same skills when chosen to go to interview out of which ever method the company prefers. Its you life skills and your personality which get you the job. Which ever method of training you do you have to start doing things which set you apart from all the other people of the same age and experience. Then your not just another CV with total time 170-220 hours, interests: reading and football.

But before you spend to much time and energy planning your life ahead go and do a trial flight to see if you like flying and a class 1 medical. If you don't like the first and can't pass the second there is no point investigating any further.

Daysleeper

12th Oct 2013, 19:16

Right now university (tuition) is free for you in Scotland and isn't free for pretty much anyone else in the world.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Just remember...(as various people have said), Don't let your degree get in the way of your education. :E

mad_jock

12th Oct 2013, 19:51

Right enough daysleeper I hadn't thought about that.

If you can go like I did at 17 your out the door by 21. Which is still on the young side to be honest for most cadet schemes etc.

And from personal experience being rat arsed in Tiviot getting tampered with by a gorgeous future female Surgeon is one of life's experiences which is fondly remembered.

Jawzyjawz

13th Oct 2013, 07:49

I personaly chose to do an Engineering degree first. The life experience will certainly help you out in interviews, especially if you do things like join clubs, exchange programmes, free flying with the air squadron etc. I've met teens who got turned away from jobs cause they can't answer leadership questions, teamwork questions (no examples to give) and so forth. Can't emphasise it enough to do a trial lesson and class 1 medical first.

Just my personal opinion as I had so much fun in Glasgow (and Edinburgh) but then again university isn't for everyone. Some people may have great teenage years where they can have a million experiences to talk about in a job interview!

The day I got my PPL was a dream come true, that can happen at any age. Going to university for free is a great oppertunity for us Scottish kids so why not do it now while the goings good!

Also if you get your frozen ATPL first, after 4 years of uni with no hours to qualify for an ATPL licence, do the theory exams still count or would you have to resit them once you accumulate the required hours? I duno, someone with a greater knowledge could explain.

All I can say is, best of luck with whatever you decide :ok:

propilot9

15th Oct 2013, 15:10

I took part last year in the final phase of selection at Waterside for BA's FPP. Let me tell you something which stood out to me. Everybody there had a degree, or was in his/her final year of studies in a University degree. There were even candidates a little older with some employment experience. In addition there were a few employees within BA who were there too as part of the whole selection. There were absolutely no guys/girls who were there straight out of high school.

If an airline has to choose between somebody who's just finished high school and somebody who has a degree plus a lot of qualities and experiences gained from having done a higher education... I think it's pretty obvious a recruiter would pick the latter.

A minimum requirement at some airlines is to have at least a bachelor's degree to be eligible for their cadet program. My advice would be that there's no rush, get a degree first, you'll still be young at the end of it to apply to do flight training! It will look amazing in your CV and will help you stand out from the crowd when applying and it's also a good backup plan!

Good luck! :)

Paxi_R6

27th Oct 2013, 18:42

On the topic of university I'm thinking of studying either an Arts degree (Maths, German & History) , Physics & astronomy or Civil/Mech Engineering?

Most pilots I've met have either done Engineering or Science & has really pushed me into choosing one of these area's in University.

On personal meetings of pilots, being a pilot? what would you recommend to study.
Like one person said on the leadership & teamwork questions, I at the moment can only relate them answers to sports (Football,Basketball) & school projects I participated in.

Uni seems like a CV builder and gives you Life experience if you take part in things obviously inside & outside of the University.

Some useful advise for a guy looking to make his way to the skies one day.

Feel free to DM too.

SheepPilot

27th Oct 2013, 22:30

Hello,

I'm currently doing my A-Levels and training to get my PPL, I hope to do onto become a Professional Commercial Pilot. Just a quick question, i'm planning to go to uni and do Aviation Management or Aviation Engineering with pilot studies at the moment I'm swaying to Aviation management.

Will this degree make me unattractive to airlines or help me more?

Im passionate about aviation and it seems perfect for me!

Thanks

Genghis the Engineer

27th Oct 2013, 22:41

Ultimately it is Engineering and Science that make aeroplanes fly.

But it is languages that allow us all to talk about it - so that's not a bad option if you are set on a degree.

But (and I say this as somebody with a CPL and two engineering degrees) I continue not to believe that a degree is really of that much use to an airline pilot. (The other way around, I use my flying knowledge daily as a Chartered Aeronautical Engineer.)

A flying instructor making their career that way might well use business management qualifications, military pilots - being also usually commissioned officers are preferred to be graduates, and test pilots usually have engineering degrees. A proportion of airline pilots will go into management, and business management type qualifications then become of value to some.

But if your ambitions are no higher than airline pilot, then I continue to believe that you're better of knuckling down with the flying training and maybe thinking about a part time degree later when you have an income and standby time.

mad_jock

28th Oct 2013, 06:26

I don't know Genghis but engineering training does help.

You have more of a feel what the plane is doing and the forces you are playing with.

The technical lingo is more defined.

Problem solving is more logical.

Talking to the spanners you tend to give the required data on the first chat. You give them more info than they require not less and they have to scratch there heads and send the plane out for another flight.

But then again there would an argument that in modern aircraft soft people skills are actually more useful.

Artie Fufkin

28th Oct 2013, 07:06

I think Paxi_R6 has hit the nail on the head re uni being about CV building and life skills.

I don't know what the exact statistics are, but most people go into jobs unrelated to their degree subject (I know someone with a history of art degree who went into finance!). What most employers look for would be a reasonably good result, in a robust degree, from a good university.

I would choose whichever subject interests you the most; you'll enjoy yourself better and in all likelihood, achieve a better result.

I would whole heartedly recommend uni if you can afford both uni and flight training. It'll be the 3 most fun years of your life and the benefits, both professional and personal, will stay with you for the rest of your life.

FANS

28th Oct 2013, 10:37

Uni is excellent, but if you want to be a pilot then it is exceedingly expensive to do uni and flying (except for the Scots!).

In reality, most can only afford to do one given the TR requirement and hence it's a tough decision to make at 18! Better get a class 1 medical first!

Genghis the Engineer

28th Oct 2013, 11:59

Absolutely - nobody disputes that having a degree is a Good Thing.

The question is, if you don't actually need that degree, is it £50-£60k worth of a Good Thing ? At £9kpa tuition, plus living costs for 3 or 4 years, that's the reality. That degree costs something similar to the fATPL. Yes, for a Scot "only" 4 years living costs, so "only" £30k or so.

My argument, in most cases, is that it's not a Good Enough Thing to be worth that sort of investment, for somebody whose sole interest is being a civil transport pilot.

Jawzyjawz

29th Oct 2013, 05:02

Actually, you can graduate with zero debt. Tuition fee is paid for and a lot of people qualify for a bursary to help towards living costs and accommodation. If you work at the same time (or full time during holidays plus overtime), you pop out the other side wining!

It is an option to take out the loan with SAAS and save it for flight training, up to roughly £10,000 over four years. This will then be paid back when you earn over...£15,000 ish? per year and is automatic. Yes there are interest on that loan but it is small compared to other options plus you have time to pay it back without losing a house over it.

Is it worth it? Up to the person I guess, 25% of the modular route paid for equivalent to obtaining a PPL, Class 1, hour building. Also a (HONS) degree, four years of life experience, loads of fun and the option to study abroad...travel like all us pilots love to do.

apologies for my bias reply but interesting nevertheless?

Genghis the Engineer

29th Oct 2013, 12:19

Which certainly proves that Scotland is a better run country than England - but I knew that anyhow. I really should have applied for that professor position in aero-eng that came up at UofGlasgow earlier this year and tried harder to persuade Mrs.G to consider a move.

As I said, a degree - university experience - etc. are Good Things. I do not regret mine for a moment. It's deciding whether any particular thing is Good Enough to justify the cost in time and money. And even low interest loans still do need paying back.

FANS

29th Oct 2013, 12:50

In summary:
If you want to be an airline pilot, you've got to do your fATPL and hence this is your priority (and TR etc)

If you can afford to do above plus Uni, it's worth it. Today, not many will be able to.

Therefore the Q is - do you really want to be an airline pilot. In today's market?

Paxi_R6

31st Oct 2013, 01:56

206Fan

8th Nov 2013, 17:52

I'd love to jump straight into the flying! But the way jobs are looking :ugh: no point of joining the 8,000 jobless pilots in Europe. What's it like job wise for bush/Instructing/ferry flying jobs? It's not all just about airline jobs.

Uni is affordable for us Irish! 2,000 odd euro a year :ok: adds up to around 4 with travelling, social nights are a killer on the bank account http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/nerd.gif
I think the Engineering route looks one I may venture into, though Physics & Astronomy sounds amazingly interesting! Sure as I was told in a lecture before "you pick up certain skills which are transferable, in many degrees it doesn't matter what you're doing" as said here too.

You can follow your head or your heart really, one tells you go from zero to hero(fATPL) the other go to university live your life have fun, get your PPL become more mature with picking up the right life skills!

Also money is the biggest factor of all. Even more for my English counterparts with Uni fee's & Training cost itself! Suppose if you really want it bad enough finding a right seat of an aircraft won't be impossible, but I know I'm sticking to Uni then go off and follow the dreamGood stuff Paxi. Get the Engineering Degree :ok:

I'm going to Canada in March hopefully for two years. When I return home with some money, I'm going back to the books myself even though I will be 29. :{ Anyway I will be looking into doing Aerospace / Astronomy myself. Southampton University does a BEng Aeronautics / Astronautics Course!

I have a PPL already only on Helicopters. My initial plan was to get a career in Helicopter flying but I have decided to go the Engineering route myself. It will be a better option career wise and will allow me to fly as a hobbie.

What Degree you going for?

Paxi_R6

12th Nov 2013, 19:21

Canada is a huge venture, wish you all the best abroad!sure it be great craic.

Don't give up on the helicopter dream, so many people in their 30's get jobs in aviation. :ok:

Engineering wise looking at Civil/Mechanical not sure on what University?
looking at Dublin City University (DCU) Physics & Astronomy, plus it's walking distance form where I live.

UL do aeronautical engineering, you looking to study outside of Ireland?

mad_jock

12th Nov 2013, 19:31

Just do a numerical degree that interests you.

Aeronautical engineering gives you no special advantages in becoming a pilot.

Make sure you know what civil engineers do before you go for the course. I have seen many civil's that make funny noises and start dribbling when you show them a cube of something. Apparently crushing test samples of concrete can do funny things to you.

206Fan

12th Nov 2013, 22:44

UL do aeronautical engineering, you looking to study outside of Ireland? Didn't know UL do Aeronautical. Must check the website out. I haven't decided whether to study in the South or the UK yet. Physics and Astronomy would be interesting, though what jobs would it get you into? I would still prefer to do Aeronautics / Astronautics (Aerospace)!

Aeronautical engineering gives you no special advantages in becoming a pilot. Mad-jock,

I won't be doing it to become a Pilot. I will be doing it to pursue a job in Engineering. As I said it will still allow me to fly for fun!

mad_jock

13th Nov 2013, 07:51

All the numerical engineering science degrees will open up a huge amount of jobs.

Personally I did Mech eng and was of the minority who actually went into mechanical engineering.

A lot went into finance and rumour had it that the mech eng grads actually had a higher pass rate for the chartered accountancy exams than the business school grads.

A load went into Anderson Consulting as it was at the time.

A fair size went on to post grad spin offs, law, teaching etc.

And there was the usual army, police, navy, RAF.

Out of my mates from school about 5-6 of them did physics or maths and they are now mostly company directors with the other two working at CERN.

My personal opinion is that your best not to get too specialised with your degree it only limits your options later. If you realise half way through the course that you only want to do one area of the subject you can do a post grad in that area which will increase your chances of getting into it.

Genghis the Engineer

13th Nov 2013, 08:11

Just in passing, as Ireland's getting mentioned. About 4 years ago I helped Dublin Institute of Technology set up their first Aero-Eng degree (actually "aviation technology", which is jointly run with the Irish Air Corps. When I was last there, it was all pointing in a pretty sensible direction.

They just invited me back next year to see how they're doing. If they've done as good a job as they looked likely to, that may be worth casting a glance at.

Dublin Institute of Technology - DT011 Aviation Technology (http://www.dit.ie/colleges/collegeofengineeringbuiltenvironment/caoapplicants/programmes/dt011aviationtechnology/)

206Fan

13th Nov 2013, 20:04

All the numerical engineering science degrees will open up a huge amount of jobs.Agree 100%. My Cousin is currently doing a BSc in Maths with Finance. He managed to get 3 months work experience with a Financial Company in England before starting the Degree. That's the route he wants to go but as you said MJ, the numerical degree will open up other doors if he changed his mind!

My personal opinion is that your best not to get too specialised with your degree it only limits your options later.This is what's actually bothering me. I would love to do Aerospace and get in with the likes of Agusta-westland or Eurocopter, but I'm sure the likes of a Maths Degree would still get me on the Graduate Programme they run.

I already hold a Level 5 HND in Electrical / Electronic Engineering, but doing the full BEng in that subject doesn't interest me as much as the Aerospace.

Still have 2 years to decide which Degree I want to definitely pursue. Though as I said about my HND, I also hold a National Diploma in the same subject which is equivalent to A Levels so I might be limited to just a Engineering Degree.

They just invited me back next year to see how they're doing. If they've done as good a job as they looked likely to, that may be worth casting a glance at.

Thanks Genghis, keep us updated :ok:

Genghis the Engineer

13th Nov 2013, 21:40

This is what's actually bothering me. I would love to do Aerospace and get in with the likes of Agusta-westland or Eurocopter, but I'm sure the likes of a Maths Degree would still get me on the Graduate Programme they run.

To be honest, probably not maths.

Maths tends to lead to relatively "back room" jobs - Aero-Eng on the other hand is regarded as a high quality general engineering degree. Aeronautical engineering grads seem to end up just about everywhere.

If engineering interests you, and you're really concerned about becoming over specialised, then I'd recommend mechanical or electronic.

On the other hand I'm a chartered mechanical engineer (as well as aero) off the back of an aerospace engineering degree. I have friends with the same degree, from the same university who are variously RAF and RN officers, a schoolteacher, running half of parcelforce, and a recently retired bank manager. Oh yes, and quite a few professional engineers, and a number of professional pilots - including quite a few test pilots.

206Fan

13th Nov 2013, 22:46

If engineering interests you, and you're really concerned about becoming over specialised, then I'd recommend mechanical or electronic.
Not concerned about being over specialised. I suppose my main concern was if I done the Aero degree, got in with an aircraft manufacturing company and the economy went per shaped down the line for example, would I get into other Engineering work? Though I can't see Aircraft and Spacecraft production slowing down!

I was looking through the different Universities that provide Aerospace Engineering. I noticed the course at Southampton is still called Aeronautics and Astronautics. I'm guessing they just haven't changed the name of the course as it's the same as the Aerospace Degrees elsewhere?

Genghis the Engineer

14th Nov 2013, 07:05

I've known many people go into other engineering work with aero degrees, so I'd really have no concerns on that particular score.

Back when Pontious was still a pilot, and I was applying for degree places, most universities called their programmes "aeronautical engineering". Southampton, which had been one of the pioneers of space engineering decided to set themselves apart so called their programme "aeronautics an astronautics". In the time since, both space and systems have become integral to pretty much all programmes, so most universities changed their names to "aerospace". Southampton didn't feel the need.

(I did my BEng at Southampton in aero/astro and had a fantastic time, as well as learning loads that I've used ever since. However, given just about everybody who taught me has since retired, I'd not take that as a specific recommendation and look at it fresh. That said, Southampton was, and remains, a fantastic city.)

That makes a valuable point however - look at the individual syllabi. Whilst there are minimum content lists: set in the UK by the Royal Aeronautical Society in particular, for BEng or MEng degrees, in practice universities set their own broader syllabi and these can vary significantly. Generally there should be a fair bit on each institution's website, and you can see what the modules and module options are. That is much more important to you than the degree name - whether that's aerospace, aeronautics and astronautics, aviation....

Other than - avoid any BSc programmes, which are unlikely to meet the ECUK (Engineering Council United Kingdom) minima for a "proper" engineering degree. Stick to the BEng and MEng options, but then look at the module lists and also have a browse through their websites to see what sort of quality and skill of people are teaching on them.

206Fan

14th Nov 2013, 17:50

Brilliant. Thanks for your input G. Appreciate it. I will be sure to drop you a message when I return from Canada to let you know how I get on :ok:

VH-RME

5th Jan 2014, 15:31

Hi all,

Is a geography degree/degree specialising in geography any good? Better than no degree, but a solid backup/pilot career advancer, or just waste of time?

Thanks

Genghis the Engineer

5th Jan 2014, 16:45

Backup? Does it qualify you to go straight into any job with a shortage of people? If not, it's not a backup.

If you are planning to become a professional pilot anyhow, does it provide anything that will be of value to you in those studies, or the subsequent career? If not, it's not better than no degree.

On the other hand, do you have a passion and fascination for the subject? If you do, it may be worth doing despite the above.

VH-RME

6th Jan 2014, 10:50

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking more towards the fact that many/most airlines require tertiary degrees as either a requirement or a strong preference when hiring. So even having the degree itself would be an advantage, even if on paper in a resume? Or am I mistaken here?

Genghis the Engineer

6th Jan 2014, 11:21

You're certainly mistaken about tertiary degrees - I've never yet met an employer of pilots looking for people with doctorates.

US airlines like pilots to have some kind of first degree level qualification, British and I think European airlines couldn't care less. It's worth finding out what your local airlines think but don't get hung up about most of the world really caring whether you hsve a degree or not as an entry level pilot - it usually doesn't.

Groundloop

6th Jan 2014, 14:42

I believe in Australia "tertiary" refers to education after leaving school (ie after primary and secondary education). Therefore this is a reference to undergraduate degrees or diplomas - not postgraduate.

Genghis the Engineer

6th Jan 2014, 15:39

Tertiary education is the same in Britain as well. But no other sector awards degrees and the first degree is normally a BSc / etc, next level Masters and and a tertiary degree would be a PhD.

None of which helps anybody very much.

Dillon318

7th Jan 2014, 02:15

Hey,
I am beginning flight training and I'm 16, but I have always seen ads for colleges that just do airline pilot training and I was wondering if a lot of people do that or go to college for something else as a back up plan. I know it's probably a dumb question but I was curious what other people did.
Thanks

zondaracer

7th Jan 2014, 23:26

I went to college for something else as a backup plan. I asked some of my friends who studied aviation what they learned in four years that isn't covered in the normal Commercial, instrument, and instructor training, and they said not much. Comparing knowledge base, what I learned in 6 months of doing the European ATPLs seems to be more in-depth in many subjects than what is covered in a 4 year university aviation program, but your results will vary from program to program. One of my friends wishes that he studied something different like business or economics.

sudden twang

8th Jan 2014, 15:03

Uni or not?
This is for those who dream of being an airline pilot.
Let's consider 2 school leavers perfectly equal in all respects with a decent set of A levels.
One goes to uni the gets a place on a mentored scheme, the other goes straight for the mentored scheme.
The latter will always be 3 years senior to the former and will always be 3 paypoints ahead.
Work out the difference in earnings over a 45 year career and you will be v surprised how much that degree will cost you. Think of a figure between 3 and 5 and add 5 zeros.
Factor in the possibility of the mentored scheme door closing in those 3 years and the possibility of fully automated flight decks in the future.
Going to uni is a great idea and a great life experience but make the decision using logic and a risk assessment tool and not what your teachers or parents expect.
If I had my time again ( and I'm v lucky to have the Ts and Cs and variety of work that I have ) I know what I'd do to maximise my chances of success accepting that nothing is guaranteed in this world.

Seabreeze

21st Jan 2014, 10:11

Uni might just teach you to think, appreciate technology and human factors, and why airline managers do what they do. I suspect airline managers enjoy chewing on the working conditions for dumb pilots who are basically Only bus drivers.

It is a harsh new world. Try reading Darwin's "Origin..". On the other hand don't bother simply become extinct

LastMinuteChanges

26th Jan 2014, 11:11

This is a tough question, for which the answer will either be as clear as day to you, or you will 'umm and arr' about for years if given the opportunity.

Essentially speaking, I was in your position a few years back, and stubbornly elected to straight in to a well known integrated cadet course offered by an established flying school almost immediately after completing my A-Levels at a traditional Sixth Form, instead of attending University.

With hindsight, I now wish I had attended University for a plethora of reasons which I'll list as follows:

Maturity:
You may feel and look mature, but the simple matter of the fact is, between the ages of 18 and 21, there is still a vast amount of maturing for you to do regardless of how you feel upon leaving A-Levels or College Education. Furthermore, your flying course mates will either be in the same boat or they won't and you'll have to accommodate that.

Education:
It's in the title, not only do you get an education to a discernible level which can be applied to Plan B, Plan C or Plan D, but you get an education in 'Life' that you won't have necessarily obtained living at home with the parents, doing A-Levels or College studies.

Your CV:
From my very recent experience in job hunting as a 200hr Cadet Pilot, it would appear that for this position an individual with 'any' degree (i.e. something substantial, and not in beauty or hair products) would be more appealing than someone without a degree. Plus, it's a great filler even you have a relatively vanilla piece of A4 with not much on it.

Plan B, Plan C and Plan D:
Take a degree that can help your Plan B, Plan C and Plan D - something irrelevant to aviation in some respects, but on the other side of the coin, can be beneficial to you in your potential future aviation career. Prepare for the future, you cannot plan, but take things in to account - there could be another recession, or there could be vast numbers of cadet pilot recruitment in the next 5 years. Have alternate Plans B, Plan C and Plan D at the ready - just in case.

What did I do?

I finished my training in late 2011, commenced a Part-time Degree (Education) in early 2012, established a Company unrelated to aviation (Plan B) in late 2012 commenced employment in Flight Operations (Plan C) in early 2013, and then found a job with an airline recently.

If necessary, look in to government grants. But always focus on the 'Bigger Picture' - education is an investment and at the very least that extra line on your CV could one day land you that dream airline job.

Lastly, ignore the flack that you'll receive from some cynical and pessimistic individuals and never, ever give up. Ever. I mean it. :=

Don't hesitate to drop me a PM if you've got any questions, I know how tricky this is for those in your position. Good luck with it all.

nicolasbta

7th Feb 2014, 15:44

Hi, im doing my CPL but i wonder if is a good idea to study some degree before staring to work because it can may can help me in my future.. Which degree do you think guys can help me as a CPL? not now maybe in the future I have been thinking something like, av management? or av security ? or accidents investigation?

which courses do you know ?

thanks for the advice

206Fan

19th Feb 2014, 13:11

Just thought I would link this thread to here!

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/389699-academic-degree-ultimately-important.html

elvispilot

27th Feb 2014, 10:29

university is a big plus when it comes to becoming a pilot for a major airline,
i was born and brought up in dubai and have spoken to the vice president of emirates too. He advised me to go to university when i told him that i'm interested in joining the ab initio pilot training program.

GeorgEGNT

7th Mar 2014, 12:19

During my time at University I have...

1) Cocked up, brushed myself off and come back stronger.

2) Met the woman I am now engaged to.

3) Moved out and established myself in a lovely house with said fiancee.

4) Partied like hell.

5) Gained some serious self respect (Achieving high marks in coursework etc).

6) Obtained a far greater appreciation for life beyond ones career.

7) Learned how to survive on a £10 shop for a week.

8) Found myself in a far superior position applying for ground based roles than without my degree.

9) Had lots of highs and lots of lows. (My mother's death between 2nd and 3rd year didn't help but certainly made me stronger)

10) Become a far happier person who appreciates everything in life.

I want to fly for a living. I did before I went to University. The difference is I want to do it for different reasons now and feel I have far more discipline and motivation to go out and achieve it.

University is a fantastic experience which no 'glossy brochured' FTO can provide you with.

(About to graduate with an Aviation Technology degree)

Hagop

22nd Mar 2014, 15:59

elvispilot,
Since you have a U.A.E. nationality, why don't you apply for the Emirates National Cadet Pilot Program from now? It is a GREAT opportunity with a major airline! You can continue uni afterwards.
Regards.

meatlover

21st Jun 2014, 13:28

Hello all,

Long story short for everyone. I jumped into my all time dream of becoming a Pilot very early on, and because of that I never got a chance to get a degree/go to uni.
I am now flying for an airline, and feel ready to further educate myself.
Looking to get a bachelors degree that may aid in any way in the future.

Be it a managerial position 10/15 years down the line, a degree that would help in the case that I lost my medical, or anything that would be beneficial to progress in this career.

I am deciding between aviation management and aviation safety/security, but all other suggestions are very welcome.

Thank you guys in adv

joshfly97

23rd Jun 2014, 08:40

I am currently in year 10 in melbourne and have completed my first solo training at RVAC. I am also planning on doing a B.Aero Engineering after school. My question is do i do my PPL during or before university or is it best to wait until after uni to go full intergrated. Also can you start an intergrated course with 80ish hours of ppl flying? I plan on flying for an airline so please tell me which is best for airline employment. Thanks

kyle941

17th Jul 2014, 12:59

Hi,

I am a student, and I intend to enroll for a Bachelor of Aviation at UNSW.
I know that there are 2 kind of Bachelor of Aviation (management stream and flying stream).
I don't know if it's more preferable to make a Bachelor of aviation Management stream and then to make a CPL in a flight training school like Basair. This makes I have a degree in management from UNSW and a CPL but from another school. With this option I can save about 30k. :)

Or it's better to make directly a Bachelor of Aviation flying stream ?

Because I made some research and some people said that the Bachelor of Aviation flying stream of UNSW not give more qualification than a private flight school .. Just a MCIR and CPL and that I have to pay 90k more than a private flight school. :ouch:

It is right or make a degree (flying stream) at UNSW is better ? :)

Regards, and thanks in advance for your reply. :)

Seabreeze

18th Jul 2014, 10:17

You don't have to make the decision upfront.

If unsure, simply enrol in the UNSW Aviation Management degree to start with, then spend some time visiting both Basair and the UNSW flying School in your first semester.

Then you can either stay in the Management Stream and fly with Basair, or transfer to the Flying Stream.

Just because the apparent upfront cost of flying training as published appears less does not mean that you will end up by paying less in total. In some cases fees are 'hidden" or the fees mentioned only cover the very minimum of training hours, and exclude many other costs. In addition, the effectiveness and consistency of instructors can make a big difference to the quality of your training, the flight hours you spend to meet standards and your capabilities on completing your training. Perhaps this is not a good analogy, but a Lada and a BMW are both licensed to drive on roads, but....

kyle941

18th Jul 2014, 12:55

Thanks for your reply. :)

I think I'll enroll for the UNSW management stream and then I'll make some visit at both school. :)

But is it a university like UNSW give a better quality of training than a private school like basair ? Or finally it is the same thing ? Because some people say that make a degree at a uni is useless to be a pilot and others say that a private school is only after your money and don't care about the quality of their students .. :ouch:

Is it some big compagny like Qantas care about wich school I'm from? (Like Basair or Uni like UNSW) ? Or just my number of fly hours ?

Cheers, :)

wasathangi

22nd Aug 2014, 21:30

GET A DEGREE OTHER THAN A FLYING AVIATION STREAM DEGREE.

A management degree in aviation as a bare minimum, why? At least you can streamline it into an MBA or gain credits towards a degree that you can walk into a job after graduation....A paid job!

Study hard, have fun, enjoy the brotherhood and what Uni has to offer!! Way better than a flying school riddled with smoke and mirrors! (Not all)

Once degree completed, start flying...You will only be 21 with 40 years of flying/aviation in front of you. Enjoy the path to become a pilot, if you are in the UK head down to Africa for fun(don't whine and carry on, it's great for the soul). In OZ, we have the outback. Gain your hours camp out meet other pilots (network)...

Just my 2 cents worth....:)

JSFerrier

29th Aug 2014, 13:09

Hi people,
I have recently received my gcse results, (7as: maths, additional maths, all 3 sciences english language and pe, 3bs: history, geography an English literature, 2cs German and ethics and a merit in IT), and am off to college next week.

My interview for enrolment is Monday, and currently I am taking maths, further maths, physics and geography, however I am debating if not to change geography for electronics as it fits in better with physics. So my first question is what should I take??

Secondly I have been scouting around the flight schools and have noticed that the majority of English based airlines sponsorship schemes are currently closed and open yearly, but and this is a big one, i have come to understand that the aviation industry does not tend to be that regular and therefore my second question is how does employment look over the next 3 to 4 years?

Third is basically should I go to university as I know that no airline requires it however it does stand out in comparison to others but I will be four years older at the end of it.

Thank you for taking your time to read this I will
Become an airline pilot it is just a matte of when and how but all advice is appreciated.

FlightPilot

15th Sep 2014, 00:46

A degree isn't any added weight when it comes to flying for a living. It however, provides security and stability. The choice that many young aspiring pilots face today is to pick one up or not. It all depends on the funding and how you can afford between the two (University & Flight School), your location. Agreed that there's a bit more life experience at college but then again it depends on the one you choose and what you part take in. When it comes to HR, an airline pilot is not differentiated on the basis of his degree certificate but the amount of experience and skill in flying. You could either get a degree (better if it would be a B.Sc or B.E 4yr) followed by a job and save up for flying OR invest all you have in a flying school (get a good cadet selection would be better), work hard and all the way up, build your hours and then leave a choice for a degree OR if you've got into a college that offer's flying by the side at a reasonable rate (PPL) pick that. Again, a degree is of no value in aviation flying and will remain to be a degree but there are many other reasons why having one in hand will keep you safe as well. If there's an opportunity open by the AirForce for you, the better! :D

It's all about making that right decision and factors that favor in. Not saying it's a disadvantage but simply a degree, isn't a requirement. Cheers and Good luck :)

Seabreeze

25th Sep 2014, 06:23

If you have no degree and you lose your pilot's medical, you then have no qualifications! Go back to square 1 and start again with a new career.

If you have a degree and you lose your pilot's medical, you keep your degree, and are qualified to get a job as a graduate. But you will then be best placed for a job if your degree is from a good university, and has relevant subject material. Some aviation flying degrees have little management content, others quite a bit. Jobs in flight despatch, scheduling etc remain options.

aeroalexGR

29th Sep 2014, 20:41

olster

4th Oct 2014, 13:59

For UK students - and it has not been mentioned yet - there is always the University Air Squadrons (UAS)...

portsharbourflyer

4th Oct 2014, 15:43

I like the way everyone recommends joining the UAS as though it is something you just apply to join as a member.

There is reasonable competition for positions in the UAS, also certain minor medical conditions that may not preclude you from holding a class one can prevent you joining the UAS; so you the chances of getting one of the VR non bursar positions is far from guaranteed.

Further to this I understand the UAS have really cut back the flying syllabus in recent years. So the hours obtained form the UAS over 3 years may not be that significant.

Also to add a degree is not a back up, relevant work experience is, so unless you have 5 plus years of post graduate work experience the degree it self isn't that useful.

jamyjay99

5th Oct 2014, 14:11

Has anyone been a part of a UAS? whats it actually like and is it worth the time?

Genghis the Engineer

5th Oct 2014, 22:21

Yes, but 25 years ago, and my only regret is not being mature enough then to take the flying as seriously as I should have done. It's still an important and formative feature of my life now however - and many other people's as evidenced by the incredibly interesting cross-section of aviation that attended the last UAS reunion I went to.

Nowadays it's moved away from the flying with a lot less hours, but more towards adventurous and officer training.

None of which changes my opinion that anybody who is lucky enough to have the option to be in a UAS, would be a fool not to fully participate.

But, as PHF said very clearly - they will decide if you're a member, not you. You can only apply and do your best.

Genghis the Engineer

5th Oct 2014, 22:34

I have just started Year 12... I've got around 23 hours in a C172 and I've began my PPL and managed to even do my first solo 1 month ago...

Unfortunately, I didn't do as well as I wanted in Maths GCSE, and got a B; even though I was predicted and was expecting an A or above. As a result, couldn't do AS Maths at school, and now I find myself in a bit of trouble... However in my rest of my subjects I got the rest As and A*s.

This is because that without Maths I cannot get into Uni entry requirements in London for something like Air Transport Operations or something like that. Which leads me to my next question... is uni worth all the money (taking into account the huge tuition fees)? (career opportunities-wise, not partying, social etc.) What courses would you recommend? Is there no way to get into City for example without the B in A2 maths?

The The Air Transport Operations with ATPL course looks good, however I found out that it has been discontinued. Anything like this to come in the future?

What would you advise me to do ?

Thanks!

If you want to do a technical degree, yes, you need Maths A level, and a B in maths GCSE should not prevent that. It sounds like you are up against a fairly classic conflict - between you shooting for the course and grades for your desired degree course, and your school shooting for the best place in the league tables.

In my opinion, if your school is putting their place in the league tables ahead of your career aspirations, then there's a problem. The first solution is go back to them and argue the case why you should be permitted to do A level maths. If you lose the argument, then frankly, they aren't what you need, and jump ship.

Which gives you two choices. One is to do the extra A-level elsewhere, most likely in evening classes: that option is perfectly reasonable and should be open to you in most parts of the UK. The other is simply to leave and study somewhere that will allow you to take the courses that you want and need.

A school DOES NOT have the moral right, and should not have the legal right, to jeapordise your career in pursuit of their position of a higher place in the league tables.

That said, the majority of professional pilot jobs don't actually require a degree, and as PHF rightly said, it's not a job backup, so think hard about why you want it. If you are still convinced that you really want that technical degree, then don't let the school bully you into doing the wrong thing for yourself.

Ckcoles

15th Oct 2014, 16:14

Hello.
I'm 15 and currently doing my ppl. Everybody I've spoken to has suggested that I get a degree after school and then continue with my piloting career, but my question is: how influential will a degree be when I'm, hopefully, looking for an airline job someday?
Some people answer that without a degree it will be nearly impossible to fly internationally and others give the age old answer of- it'll give you something to fall back on if things don't work out... I would just like to know your opinion on how valuable a degree is and what experienced pilots recommend. I would most likely look towards aerospace or civil engineering in terms of a degree.

Thank you in advance!

darkroomsource

15th Oct 2014, 16:24

Forget "fall back on". That's a poor phrase.
Instead think of it this way.
Companies like people with "real world" knowledge and experience, not "kids" just out of high school (secondary school) with a "few" hours of flying experience.
So, having a degree will be an advantage in the job search.
But you may also find that you like doing that rather than flying.
And, with the job market the way it is, you might be more likely to find a job you like doing something related to your degree than a flying job that pays any where near the same amount.
In the case where you get a job that's not flying, you'll be able to fly on the weekends and truly enjoy the flying.
If you get a job that is flying, then you'll be more likely to get a "good paying" job with a degree than without one.
Instead of "fall back" think of it giving you options.

Ckcoles

15th Oct 2014, 16:47

Thank you darkroomsource.
Makes sense and it's great to have another opinion.

paco

15th Oct 2014, 17:40

Nearly impossible to fly internationally? Nonsense! A degree is more of a factor in the US, as it is with almost any trade over there.

If I wanted something to fall back on, plumbing would make way more money than any job that requires a degree :)

I would certainly have another trade under my belt, but it wouldn't necessarily involve a degree.

Ckcoles

16th Oct 2014, 18:59

Anyone else have any insights/advice?
All replies welcome!

Genghis the Engineer

16th Oct 2014, 19:22

The USA and a few parts of the far/middle east like airline pilots to have a degree. They really don't care what the degree is in, or how good.

There are some specialist jobs where a degree, preferably a technical degree, are of significant value to you. They are flight test, and a lot of armed services: a very large proportion of military pilots have good degrees. Those aiming for management pilot positions in the airlines do well do to a management degree of some form.

In Europe, nobody cares if you have a degree if you are *only* a civilian pilot - it's all about your flying qualifications, experience and reputation - anything else is unimportant here (actually once you have the job, the same's true in the USA as well). Where you fly for a European airline is completely irrelevant - if you have an EASA licence, and you're flying a European registered aeroplane, you can fly anywhere in the world and nobody will care about your educational background.

As I've said on here a few times, I am one of those oddballs who have professional engineering AND flying qualifications. That has opened the way to some fantastic jobs, but they're all very nonstandard. That suits me - I would hate to either fly the standard scheduled routes, or do a conventional design office engineering job. Many people however are much happier in the mainstream.

In most cases, Paco is right that it's not a backup. The exception, maybe, is that if you did an aero-eng degree, then time flying would be regarded by most recruiters as valuable industry experience. Any other degree, probably not.

A real backup would be something that allows you to earn money quickly - short order chef, plumber, personal trainer... But that may not suit your personal ambitions, which is fair enough.

P40Warhawk

16th Oct 2014, 21:46

Degree or any other vocational degree as Back Up doesnt bring you very far in case you cannot find a job. Companies see your F ATPL and know that you will be gone whenever the chance pops up to continue flying. Why would they take you then?

When I was applying for non aviation jobs, I was asked this question. What would you do if you get the chance to get pilot job? You would be a really good liar if you could say without a blink of an eye that you will say NO to that pilot job.

Only possibility is to get ground handling job at airport. And via that way get in contact with maybe an chief pilot of some airline.

Groundloop

17th Oct 2014, 09:39

Companies see your F ATPL and know that you will be gone whenever the chance pops up to continue flying. Why would they take you then?

Why on earth, then, would you put the fATPL on your CV for that (non-airline) job?

P40Warhawk

17th Oct 2014, 13:14

Why on eart on CV? For the simple reason that otherwise you have a 1,5 - 2yr gap where you did your training.

With what should I fill that up? Travelling? Then inteviewer? Where have you been? What have you seen? I am a pilot. Not an actor. And I hate to lie. Because interviewers are smart. They pinch you immediately.

Luke SkyToddler

18th Oct 2014, 05:38

Much better to actually go and work for the 3 or 4 years it would take you to complete your degree, and save enough money to buy your pilot licence without taking on debt. That is worth absolute gold. And will impress most airline employers just as much in the interview, if you explain your reasoning

mad_jock

18th Oct 2014, 06:52

For the simple reason that otherwise you have a 1,5 - 2yr gap where you did your training

That's only a problem if you did the training full time.

Depends what your degree is in as well.

Most subjects need you to have worked 3-5 years after graduation for you to be useful anyway.

Pharmacist and opticians seem to have a short work up and plenty of locum work which is paid well.

P40Warhawk

19th Oct 2014, 08:49

Yes I did integrated. So in that case it is hard to explain. And what you say mad, to get a job on higher position you need the most hated word EXPERIENCE. Same as in aviation.
But how to get experience if your dont get the chance to obtain experience?
Only thing to do is to accept a much lower position. But then still the question, WHY would we take YOU while knowing that you will go away as soon as you get the chance to take the RHS? I applied even for very low jobs where you dont need education, but then you got answer, you are over educated.

Myself I did integrated training for the costs of Modular but have Integrated on my CV for what its worth.

M33

19th Oct 2014, 09:55

Just my experience.

But, I have a masters 1st class aeronautical engineering.

Post flight training ended up flying 3 years in light twins (freelance, where I worked part time making use of my university degree to fund poor salary), now 3 years regional turbo props (which I absolutely love)

Have applied many times for easy, aer lingus, jet 2. No interview.

So in my opinion the degree has not helped my flying career, however some might say I have been very fortunate in getting where I have. The degree might help with the sort of jobs that value life experience. But if a jet is where you want to end up... Luck and the right integrated school, and LOTS of money open doors.

Due to the financial implications of university these days, make your own decisions. I found my wife my friends, lifestyle through sport at university. So very glad I went. Plus I funded most of my training with my career post uni. However didn't have to pay fees.

At 15yr old, I suggest you make the most of school. Work, get good grades, get involved in sport, or extra curricular option that enhances a CV. Open doors to your future. Don't make decisions now that limit options.

mad_jock

19th Oct 2014, 09:55

Integrated on my CV for what its worth

Pretty much nothing and I completed Modular in 13 months.

its a bit strange because all my life I have taken jobs to fill in between jobs never had a problem with being degree qualified etc.

I have a C+E lorry license which always allowed me to pick up work as and when required. I suspect even after 14 years not going near them I could phone up a couple of the operators in Aberdeen and start work tomorrow. Although I believe you have to do some theory training these days you can't just jump in a 45 tonner after not driving one for a couple of years and head off like you used to (no bad thing in my opinion)

I am sure Grant in Driver Hire Aberdeen would have me out on the streets the next day as well.

Degree qualified mates work in fields every year inspecting crops.

2 of them used to dig graves.

most shy away from the dirty jobs in life, me I love them, they usually pay very well and nobody cares about you apart from you turn up everyday on time and you will put in over time if required.

I am a firm believer in generating your own luck. If you have a hunger and you want to do something and put some effort in luck happens. Same with looking for work. Don't mind swinging a sledge hammer and bending you back shovelling ****e you will get work. You might only do it for a few weeks when something else turns up because you have been seen to shovel ****e with a smile. Well that's the way it seems to have worked for me through my life.

P40Warhawk

19th Oct 2014, 12:56

Myself I am not to arrogant to do ****ty jobs. I also applied to work in a factory. I dont care what kind of work I have to do. As long as I dont have to hold up my hands to get state allowances.

Now I am working as FA in an growing company. Lately an Purser is hired as FO in this airline. Will start to do his TR next month. And the nice thing is, we dont have to pay for our rating and the salary is actually pretty good.

As you say Mad Jock. Absolutely true. If you are willing to work hard and open to do anything to work, then you will find your luck.

For me I hope this will be my lucky shot and make a great start in my carreer as a pilot in this company.

mad_jock

19th Oct 2014, 13:08

And you will be a far better pilot/manager for having experience working as a FA.

Good for you and I hope it works out for you.

Scoobster

19th Oct 2014, 13:50

Just to add my few pence worth to this thread.

Like probably many others (I use that phrase loosely) - I have an undergraduate and postgraduate degree behind me. Whilst a student I pretty much couldn't afford anything, let alone afford to learn to fly "off my own back".

Did it help me?!

Well apart from being seen as "educated" which in my culture is seen as being negatively portrayed if you do not have a degree but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that those without a degree are not successful and in fact a few people I know have gone on to become millionaires through luck and grafting having the balls to shun both college and university.

University will give you opportunities to experience a life which is set around people of similar mindset's to you. As already pointed out getting involved in extra curricular activities such as the annual trek to Nepal, raising money for the charity during the annual "RAG" week or even joining an "Air Squadron" and having some fun at the same time! Meeting people and opening your mind to new experiences and making friends along the way.

What it did do for me though.. is allow me to target openings to firm's that allowed me to skill up in technology and cut loose as a Contractor which has pretty much allowed me to travel and see the world.. and paid for the first stage of my license!

Throughout university I worked as a Bus Driver with a PSV License.. whilst friends flipped burgers in McDonalds or did other jobs.. I loved the feel of being out driving around as a 20 year old and iit paid for "tuition" and I got comfortable.

Even now I could walk into a PSV Operation and work part time if I needed.. The license like flying will be there for life (subject to Medical).

Use university as a "stepping stone" to a different chapter.. but the comments about it not allowing you to fly internationally or fly at all for that matter are nonsense!

alexbrown2005

1st Dec 2014, 23:19

If I can add my $0.02, I've just finished my second year of a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science. My instructor told me about a student who got his CPL - that is, with no degree - at 19, and the week after obtaining his CPL, was working up in North Queensland.

My pathway is to hold both a CPL and an MECIR, as well as my BA, by the end of 2016, by which time I'll be 22.

The way I see it, if nothing else, a degree will show dedication to the completion of a task, and I think CFIs will take this into account. Not to mention I've really enjoyed my two years so far.

In Oz, at least, while a degree isn't required to work in the airlines, it's common knowledge that an airline like Qantas (if they're even around when it's time for me to apply for the airlines) wants their pilots to have a formal education outside aviation.

Rian711

25th Dec 2014, 19:48

Hey guys,
New to this, and although it has been asked before i managed to not find anything in one place, so will ask everything here. Apologies if i wind you up with questions in a period where everyone deserves relax.

1) I'm finishing my 'A Levels' here in the UK, but I'm undecided if i should go to a university in USA to study pilot studies where after 4 years you become a pilot with all the licenses, or should i go for the modular route and complete my PPL in the USA (EASA) and then Oxford to do ATPL/CPL.

2) Will it be worth going to a USA university to complete my pilot training or shall i do it pay as you go from private pilot training schools?

3) Which are the best unis, apart from ERAU and EDU that do the pilot training course? People told me to call them but upon calling them, they said they do some type of Aeronautical Science which allows you to be a pilot (??) - If you think private pilot schools, which one is the most reliable and can vouch for to get my PPL?

4) I've got offers from top Law schools in the UK (I applied to do Law in uni), such as Durham, UCL. But will it be worth it to spend 3 years doing Law undergraduate and then spend another year or two to finish off my pilot training? By the time i'll be a pilot i'll be close to 23-24. I know it's not related but i had interest in Law before i fancied a career in Aviation.

Thanks in advance peeps and merry Xmas :)

Dash8driver1312

25th Dec 2014, 19:56

With the market as it is, I would get my law degree and fly as a hobby.

Sorry to be the first and to be so negative.

I do wish you the best in whatever choice you subsequently make however, and a merry Christmas and a prosperous new year to you.

go around flaps15

25th Dec 2014, 22:39

My advice would be to go and get your law degree. Fly as a hobby in the meantime and get a feel for the industry.

After you have got your law degree make another informed decision on the merits of gaining an ATPL.

Good luck.

Rian711

26th Dec 2014, 10:39

Thanks guys, negative is better, at least i know what's going on :)

My main question tho, is should i do the pilot training in an American university spending 4 years (which i heard airlines like it, doing it as a unit degree) or should i go and follow my friends, and do it PAYasYouGo?(which i heard Airlines don't like it very much because it has not been done in one go. They've done PPL and hour building in USA, ATPL and CPL at Oxford.

Merry XMas eveyone and have a wonderful new year!

Isaacelpiloto

15th Feb 2015, 13:56

Hi everyone,

My name is Isaac and I am currently sudying British Secondary Education in Spain. My dream is to become a professional pilot.

My big doubt is weather I should go straight to somewhare like CTC, or maybe study Aerospace Engineering with Pilot Studies. I quite like the second option, because I have something to fall back on, but my priority is becomeing a pilot and I don't want to spend 3 years at uni to then have to spend another 2 in a pilot school while acummulating debt and not having a job.

EC DKN

27th Feb 2015, 16:14

Isaac go to Uni first! The experience will bring you more maturity and personality, and before embarking in any kind of flight training do a PPL because maybe you will realise that flying is not what you had thought at the beginning!

Buenos vuelos!

Ponny10

2nd Mar 2015, 14:36

Hello boys and girls! I'm new to the forum and I see that questions like these have been answered before but my situation is a little different so I'll try here.
I am 22 years old and I'm just about to graduate from University with a degree in economics. As a Private Pilot I have decided that I want to pursue a career as a commercial pilot. Now, my goal is to get through the training and work my way up to an Airline which nowadays is not a peace of a cake anymore. But, in the future, even if chances are slim, I would perhaps want to be able to take my career to another level by becoming a civil test pilot, becoming a consultant or many of the other roads a civilian pilot could follow. I know that a technical degree is beneficial if you are aiming towards these things but I am not sure if I really want to study 3 or 5 more years pursuing a engineering degree or the like just for the fun of learning and getting the degree. So I am in need of some advice. Is it worth pursuing it with the potential benefits for my flying career or is it best just to start flying which is my passion.

Thanks!

Isaacelpiloto

14th Mar 2015, 22:06

:) Thanks a lot, really appreciate the advice EC DKN!

TheSkiingPilot

15th Mar 2015, 14:35

I had the choice of continuing with education, but after A Levels, I was well settled with the idea of going straight into training. Best decision I ever made, younger the better

wecrashlanded

23rd Mar 2015, 09:51

Hey guys, so first off this isn't really a "should I or shouldn't I go to uni" thread, it's a smidge different and I was hoping to get your viewpoints.
So I did my schooling in Canada, where we don't have GCSEs and A Levels. I did an equivalency through NARIC and all I really got out of it was a certificate that said I have a "GCSE level of education" - nothing specific. Now, I'm already planning on going to uni through long-distance education either through the Open University or University of London's program. My question boils down to this: Will (generally speaking, because I know there are a ton of factors that go into this) an airline prefer that I do A Levels, or even upgrade my GCSEs, or would being enrolled and studying at a university be more beneficial and I wouldn't really need to bother with A Levels?

Cheers

pakythepilot

23rd Mar 2015, 10:25

As far as my knowledge about the uk academy qualifications are, I am quite sure you can't enroll into an uni degree without having A-levels. Just for curiosity, does your actual level of education allows you to step directly into uni in Canada? If yes the best option might be to get a degree in Canada and then move to uk. Even so the actual hiring situation in EU is very bad and in my opinion, you should stay and get your license as well as start your career there. It's far cheaper and there are more chance to find a job than EU. Think twice before moving and if you have already done it, go back in Canada if you want a proper job without paying for any single rating or even for a job. Anyway gcses are required to start an atpl course, but obviously good A-levels or even a uni degree looks better in a CV.

wecrashlanded

24th Mar 2015, 01:03

Thanks for the insight

12120612

27th Mar 2015, 09:29

Hi all,
I am 18, almost 19 years old and am studying management at university here in England, however it has always been my ambition to become a pilot, preferably working for an airline. Apart from piloting, no other job seems interesting to me, and my course is getting ridiculously boring, as I have been there for about 5 months and am yet to find a bit of what I am doing that I would want to work in, I feel any job related to management isn't for me, and I find it very tedious, however all of my friends doing the course all love it, which must mean I should enjoy some aspect a little in theory? However it almost scares me that this could be my future. I am at university as my dad was reluctant to help fund my flying due to no guarantee of a job once id gained the sufficient licences and hours, and wants me to get a backup. After looking at many university courses I found none that stood out, so I chose one focusing on management and it, thinking I would like some aspect enough to want a job in the sector, however it has just reaffirmed to me the fact that the job I truly have a passion to attain has no equal, and a job in management or it would not be for me, especially after being in many offices and seeing the day to day life of someone in a similar role, I have absolutely no interest, that and the fact that I will amass a debt in the tens of thousands if I continue. I understand fully that my dad wants me to have a backup plan in place in the event I cannot fly any longer, however a related job, such as a pilot not working for an airline working charter flights, or working as an ATC actually interest me. And if I couldn't find a job inside aviation, something more physical and practical, such as working in public services, such as in the police, as a coast guard, firefighter etc. would make me much happier than a job related to the subjects I am specialising in at university. I have another 3 years at university however completing this degree, to me, seems a waste of time as I would look for a job outside of related fields in order to be happy, as I feel that while money is somewhat important, what is the point in spending the majority of your life doing something you borderline detest? I am just looking for some guidance and I thank you all for reading.

HongKongCargoPilot

3rd Apr 2015, 11:08

Okay, so I know the question in the title is a bit of a broad one, but let me explain.

I have offers from universities to study music production at degree level. I applied to university as I didn't want to risk failing to land a place elsewhere and being stuck at home after my A levels. Since recieving my offers I have been speaking with old friends of mine who have since applied to the military, and annoyingly it has reignited my initial dreams of being aircrew in the military. For various reasons I have always wanted to be a pilot, however due to my not 20/20 vision, the RAF never really posed as a choice, and for that reason I looked into the Navy and for a long while I was set on joining. My dilemma is that although I have heard about how great an officer career in the Navy can be - I don't see myself sticking out a job in Warfare or anything other than aircrew for that matter. Realistically, If I was to get through FAT's, the AIB and all the medicals etc, how is the current situation on drafts for the FAA and do I stand any chance of becoming a pilot? I am very lucky to recieve the offers I did from university, but I would happily sacrifice that place if there was a fair chance I could land a place at BRNC.
I know you can't answer for certain, but I suppose I'm basically asking is if the RN are taking on pilots?
Sorry for the lengthy question, and thank you in advance for any responses.

Seanmul89

4th Apr 2015, 01:34

Hey all,
Thought i would put up a thread on my position on deciding whether to go to college, stay in my full time job with decent pay, save up for the next while and fund an Integrated ATPL course.

Im 26 now, I have a few hours logged so far doing PPL. I am currently employed the last 9 years. I still have the position for the next 11 years all going well if i want. What I was thinking was leaving next year to go to UNI to do a degree. At that stage if i graduated i would be 30-31 years of age. In between that and now I will be applying for Aer Lingus cadetship, which is quite hard to get a place. I have the level of education required to apply so why not, but previous cadets that were chosen had graduated with impressive degrees etc.

So this had me thinking. Having the military behind me and other things could stand to me i dont know, but i will find out.
Would saving for the next while be the right move, as I could shoot myself in the foot leaving a full time position, go to uni with no money for the next few years but yet i could be saving for that time in work? Possibly do a part time course in the evenings, I doubt i will be overseas for the next while so could be an option.
What would some people do in my position?
I know this thread should probably be for a careers advisor lol but anyway, someone might have done this, the advice i need could be here, or ideas.
Little long but just looking to see other thoughts. Thanks:ok:

sudden twang

9th Apr 2015, 16:03

Just a question,
You go to uni, gain a degree and start flying training. You get a job with a very good airline on decent Ts and Cs.

Unfortunately at 45 you lose your med cat and therefore cannot continue as a pilot.

Exactly how is the degree you have going to help you? It was completed 22 years ago and you are no more qualified and less current than all of the recent graduates in said field. You have also demonstrated that you would rather do something else than employed in that role.

I read a lot here about " something to fall back on " and it may well be exactly that but in many cases it wont be.

Im not trying to burst any bubbles here I just want people to make the most informed decision.

I meet many people who due lack of knowledge are making or have made the wrong decision.

engineeringmanaging

2nd May 2015, 16:38

Hi PPruNe

I'm currently pursuing my BEng in Aeronautical Engineering. (note: By the time I finish my degree I would be 23 y/o.) After which I plan to undergo pilot training.

However, I want tocomplete a masters in Air Transport Management (1 year) or Airport Planning and Management (1 year) from Cranfield University after my BEng.

My question is, should I directly pursue pilot training after my degree is over? or should I complete my masters before pursuing pilot training? If I do the latter I would be 25 y/o by the time I begin pilot training... feel as though that would put me at a disadvantage when applying to become a starting first officer.

My eventual career goal is to be in a high level management position of an airline while also being a pilot.

Looking forward to some thorough advise. Thank you.

Genghis the Engineer

21st Jun 2015, 11:43

In my opinion, if you want to be a professional pilot, go for pilot training. If you want to be an airline manager, go for the management MSc. Or, pursue an aeronautical engineering career.

But, right now, pick what you want to do with the next 5-10 years and throw everything into that. It's time to make a decision, not keep hedging your bets.

You are too young to worry about age.

Changes are possible later, but if you want to manage pilots, first be a very good pilot. If you want to manage engineers, first be a very good engineer. Going straight into a management degree is a route into business management, not functional management.

EC DKN

21st Jun 2015, 11:59

I have a BSc in Aeronautical Management (+Erasmus exchange experience) and a PPL and I am 22. I was thinking the same (doing a Msc in Cranfield) but then I realized it was better to go straight to my ATPLs (BGS) and working at the same time. You have got a uni degree, something that a lot of pilots don't have these days, so you are good enough!

I encourage you to carry on your pilot training modularly as you are young and you can get aviation experience which will be invaluable once you get your fATPL. By the way, BGS + PAT (Bournemouth)!

Regards.

Paxi_R6

29th Jun 2015, 19:11

Decided to take the job, got myself an apprenticeship(Electrician). I've gotten into the right company in terms of making money, for a first year I made quiet a bit! Can't say I've enjoyed it, it's awful work.

Apart from the money major skill sets you'll learn while working, from my brief time in college & General education you'd want to be doing a lot of stuff outside of your regular course to pick most of them up.
Becoming fully qualified is a key to succes now, the qualified guys were earning €1100 after tax a week!(that's max) mostly pulling out €800 was the norm. Putting in the work & hours all the same, not easy.. So what EI-Flyer said, it worked for him! And plenty of others. another 2 years and I'll be there money wise to start saving more!

Also: Keep and eye out for maintaince work as an apprentice, you'll have great joy finding a Jem job like that! (Not having to bust some serious On a site).

PPJD

3rd Aug 2015, 18:19

I'm new here and just wanted some advice on undertaking a degree.

I have recently been offered a place on the CTC Wings Integrated ATPL programme. I have completed my A-levels and have just attained a HNC in Mechanical Engineering through an apprenticeship scheme with an aerospace company. I intend to complete my PPL (A) before I embark on the CTC Wings programme (yet to be confirmed). I am concerned I may be at a disadvantage not having a degree. But I believe CTC Wing's have a good placement record even though there is no guarantee of a job. It would also depend on the time I come out of training and also the current climate in 18 months approx.

Would it be worthwhile doing the BSc Degree in Professional Aviation Pilot Practice? I am aware it is a significant cost along with the cost of training.

If you had two people with exactly the same qualities achieving the same % (no retakes) carrying out their ATPL exams and passing the different stages of flight training successfully. The only way you could differentiate these two individuals is through their personal/work experience and also their qualifications to date. I am assuming BA would lean towards the person with a degree obviously demonstrating the right aptitude/personal qualities.

Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you :ok:

Gary Lager

7th Sep 2015, 09:00

Have you considered the CTC scheme which offers a degree alongside ATPL? Doing a degree in pilot studies prior to ATPL training is a waste of time IMHO, as much of the information is subsequently duplicated, it is at great expense, and having 'any old degree' does not say as much about you as having a specific degree in another field eg philosophy, engineering, mathematics etc. which shows there is more to you than just aeroplanes and that you are able to apply yourself to a far more rigorous academic standard.

A degree can also be a back up career if your career as a pilot doesn't work out straight away, or at all.

I really believe the Pro Pilot studies degree is a a degree invented by universities to satisfy demand by students, not industry, which seems like the tail wagging the dog to me, and airlines do not usually consider that a candidate with an ATPL and PPS is necessarily any better than an ATPL with any other degree. Ask yourself: do you think a degree in PPS will truly help you a) get a flying job, or b) get a non-flying job, or c) in life in general?

Genghis the Engineer

7th Sep 2015, 15:48

which offers a degree

No it doesn't, it offers a "foundation degree", which is academically marginal, and of similar value to the old HNC. In fact I think I'd rate PPJD's HNC in mechanical engineering more highly, academically, than a BSc in "pilot practice".

A degree can also be a back up career if your career as a pilot doesn't work out straight away, or at all.

Generally speaking, this is also untrue. Most degrees are just a stepping stone to gaining significant additional experience towards, maybe, eventually, a professional qualification. Also if you do a degree, and then a few years flying training - the bottom drops out of the flying job market again - you're competing for trainee positions against people who have just graduated and whose study skills and degree education are 2 years fresher.

I really believe the Pro Pilot studies degree is a a degree invented by universities to satisfy demand by students

Yes. Airlines want pilots: a few third world countries like the USA think that a degree matters, but don't care what in - but in Europe certainly nobody cares and want to know how good a pilot you are.

The situation tends to be like this - young man or woman wants to be a pilot, but needs a loan as they're too impatient to earn as they train slowly. Parents, who come from another era when degrees had very different significance, want their child to have a degree. So, the solution is a "pilot studies degree", that frees up loan money, child gets to fly, parents see a degree happening.

I was part of the team that puts one such together - but we went for the full RAeS accredited Aero-Eng degree, and embedded a PPL in it. I think that around two thirds of our graduates went to engineering careers, and about a third to professional flying training. But the concept of "backup" was not there and we didn't encourage it - they were getting a broad education, and heading to the career they wanted. I was quite open with those who had no interest in an engineering career however, that they were wasting my time and their money and should just clear off and get on a professional flying course. Most of them ignored me until after they'd graduated.

Pull what

7th Sep 2015, 16:06

You can never say what an airline wants or is looking for because that can change as managers and/or policy changes and can even change according to who is interviewing you.

Genghis the Engineer

9th Sep 2015, 12:06

True, of-course, with absolutely any job in any profession. There's often a difference between what's in the paperwork, and what's going to be truly assessed in an interview.

For example - when I used to recruit PhD students in aeronautical engineering, I'd give the interviewees a model of a flexwing microlight and ask them to explain the flight mechanics. I knew jolly well they wouldn't have a clue - what I wanted to see was how well they could reason and explain their thinking when presented with a totally unexpected problem. I didn't actually care if they knew how a flexwing worked (in fact, I'd rather they didn't). But there's no way I could reasonably put that in the job spec.

Similarly, as you point out - on Monday the airline interviewer may regard graduates as jumped up little sods with an inflated opinion of their own worth, and dislikes them on principle, whilst on Tuesday it may be somebody else who has a degree, enjoyed it, and thinks that it makes him a better pilot and so prefers graduates. You just can't plan for that.

Basically, concentrate on being the best pilot you can be!

Gary Lager

10th Sep 2015, 10:52

Hi GtE - you have put more meat on the bones of my limited understanding of the various schemes offered - I agree that a 'foundation degree' has limited worth, but if all you want is a BSc after your name, or a degree for degree's sake (and are considering Pro pilot studies to achieve this), the CTC scheme seems a more cost effective option; but one I don't think has much value or benefit in terms of producing better FOs than the regular ATPL. Maybe airlines would disagree but as a line Captain I am not convinced. (I don't actually recommend spending £50K just for some vanity letters after your name, btw!)

Degree for back-up; perhaps my wording was off but I didn't mean to imply that having a degree gives you instant access to an alternative career; but if you are after the 'Uni' experience then why not do something which will give you that alternative stepping stone to entry-level positions in another field if flying doesn't work out? If you do Pro Pilot Studies and don't fly then it is pretty much a waste of three years, isn't it? Whereas something like mathematics, journalism, engineering etc. could provide an alternative path.

Greenlights

21st Sep 2015, 00:58

get a degree, my advice : in accounting, MBA or IT eventually.
In my airline I work in management thanks to my degree (though, connections are more important).
If you need to climb the ladder you will need a master degree soon or late. It's impossible to learn such skills at this level (accounting or business) without diploma. Employers do not have time to teach you basics things.
I fly less but have more money and do not have to pay for working anymore (i make others pay now hihi).
pilot licence is... like a driving licence, you may lose, may have it revoked etc..

iTechno8

22nd Sep 2015, 20:01

Hi everybody,

My name's Shujaa, first post here on the forum. I'm kind of stuck in a similar dilemna: I'm a British citizen currently residing in Pakistan, and currently studying the equivalent of A levels here (science subjects - no Mathematics).

My plan was till recently to complete my higher secondary education, and join CTC or OAA to do my fATPL / MPL. My parents are reluctant for me to enter this field, and become jobless after getting my fATPL due to the current job situation. They want me to continue in a medical university and go for my MBBS degree.

After reading this thread from top to bottom: I've concluded that it is useful to get a degree, for something to fall back on and for obvious experience reasons.

Now my queries: Will getting a degree in MBBS help me in finding a job if I choose to start my flying after uni?

And what about the degrees offers by CTC / OAA during your training? BSc Honours in Air Transport Management with Airline Pilot Training.

And if not, what else advice should I keep in mind?

Many many thanks

Seabreeze

3rd Oct 2015, 08:51

You won't get a job in anything if you dither and dabble. MBBS entry is extremely competitive and will require straight As at GCE A levels. Also not everyone has the ability to be a pilot, and hard work will be necessary to complete training. Suggest you focus on ONE career. Getting your education and training finished will be challenging enough.

pilotingram

22nd May 2016, 12:18

Hi There,
long time reader, first time poster here.
Basically, I decided I wanted to be a pilot around two years ago, whilst at college. I didn't have the funds (obviously) and wasn't in a position to have my parents put anything on the line to secure a loan so I decided to go to uni, get a degree to get a job to eventually get myself in a position to then apply for flight school. Also, It gives me a back up option if things go to pot.
I'm currently studying electrical engineering. I have always enjoyed electronics and technology and I'm just about to go into my first year exams. BUT, I've not enjoyed the course and i'm skeptical about the exams.
If I were to fail the year I'm thinking about risking it and just applying to a flight school. What I want to know is will it look bad on my part if I have to tell them I failed my first year at uni? Will it affect my chances at all?
Thank you all for your time :)

Eager pilot

24th May 2016, 04:43

Mate you need to make up your mind Medicine or Flying they are two different professions. Not sure what you are doing in Pakistan after being a British Citizen.

Genghis the Engineer

24th May 2016, 11:32

Eager - you're replying to a 9 month old post. And there are loads of people with joint UK / Pakistani nationality: a relic of empire.

Gram - the first year of any engineering degree is horrible as they bring everybody up to the same standard in maths and engineering science. It gets a lot more fun after that. Working as an engineer is also a lot more fun than studying it.

If you want to be a pilot, learn to fly. There's a University Air Squadron attached to Sheffield, and I'm sure that there are gliding clubs and the like as well. Your student fees are massively greater than a PPL, which is the only sensible first step towards becoming a professional pilot. Doing a PPL will tell you if you have the motivation and aptitude: nothing else will.

Forget this nonsense about "applying to flight school", unless you're a complete halfwit, which you're not if you got into a Russell Group university, the only questions that'll be asked will be can you afford it, and can you pass a class 1 medical.

Talking of which, get a class 1 medical before you commit to anything else.

And don't discount the possibility of doing engineering for a living, whilst flying for fun.

sudden twang

7th Jul 2016, 05:47

Just for balance:
I come from the opposite side of the academic tracks to GtE but I couldn't agree more with his last few posts.
I would add that unless you are John Travolta you cannot buy the experience of commanding "heavy metal".
Most things in life are Risk v Benefit and Uni is a huge benefit. There is a risk attached however. I've always believed in terms of furthering your pilot career you should go for what you want and don't go for what you don't. The '74 oil crisis, 9/11, SARS and other events has taught me to go for it as soon as you can. There must be some who made the perfectly valid decision to go to Uni 3 years ago rather than immediately for the BA FPP. They are now, as they graduate,anxiously waiting to hear when and more importantly IF the FPP 16 will happen. They could have been jetting around in the P2 seat of an A320 by now.
No criticism intended,who knows what will happen in the future I just want to help people make logical decisions with as much evidence as possible.

Zhuurst

13th Jul 2016, 20:38

Is uni -> graduate job the best way to get the required funds for ATPL training or is there a better way? I'm keeping in mind the 40K of student debt you'd have after graduating and also the 3/4 years of studying when you could be earning money instead.

Thanks

Genghis the Engineer

18th Jul 2016, 21:08

Probably not - train for a much needed skill like plumbing, cooking or building, and go that way if you don't really care about the degree subject and want an earner and fallback.

ryanc106

20th Jul 2016, 11:05

Hi All,

I am 30 and am considering a career change from a finance professional (Accountant) to a Pilot.

I have a few questions and would be grateful of any input:

1) I have applied for the Easyjet & Aer Lingus Cadet schemes however the chances of being accepted I appreciate are slim. With this, would it be a good or bad idea to fund the training myself?

2) If after paying out the best part of £80-£100k on training what are the realistic chances of getting a job and general career prospects?

3) What is the money like for new cadets and when does the money start improving?

4) And probably most importantly, would you recommend this career or stick to what I'm doing and complete the PPL for fun?

Many thanks in advance for you advice.

Genghis the Engineer

29th Jul 2016, 10:16

Do a PPL first Ryan, it'll answer most of your questions and either set you up for an amazing hobby, set you up for a future professional career, or show you that it's not for you. Whichever, it'll be money well spent.

What's this got to do with having a degree?

squakvfr

15th Sep 2016, 15:55

Hey everyone,
I got a similar situation. I'm currently studying for the frozen ATPL, I posses a CPL and an A320 type. Can't find a job though and its been a while. I'm also 21

I'm thinking to get a BS in air transport management from Emirates Aviation University, which would only require 1 year since I will be a frozen ATPL holder.

What do you guys think? Does anyone hold a similar degree that can tell me if its helpful? I know this wouldn't help me to get a pilot job..
Any advice is appreciated and thanks !

rosiew16

26th Sep 2016, 09:19

There was a useful study done on this recently to work out the difference in cost between going to uni and pilot training.

Degree vs pilot training - how do they compare (http://www.fta-global.com/fta-news/degree-versus-pilot-training-how-do-they-compare)

It was written by a pilot training school so is probably biased but I think it lays out the costs quite simply! Makes it seem like a no brainer if aviation is in your heart!

Seabreeze

10th Oct 2016, 01:15

The article written by FTA is clearly just self promotion.....buyer beware...

While the airforces of the world do take in 18 year olds, they can choose just the best to start, then scrub 70% of those. The average prospective pilot needs to have a balanced personality and some other life experience can help. A degree from a good university will help build both maturity and technical knowledge...

Nahid125

9th Jan 2017, 17:22

Hey guys, I'm 16 years old and have had a huge passion for flying for many years now and I'm solid sure that I want to persue it as a career. I've looked at some university degrees offering aviation studies like Herts but more specifically Kingston's Aviation studies. Although one thing isn't clear. How is someone studying in uni supposed to keep up with the payments of the ATPL training and Kingston hasn't specified if I must pay in addition to the 9 grand for tuition fees. I'm wondering if anyone can help me with this as someone who got their ATPL with a uni course. My other option is Aerospace Engineering. Should I go to Kingston and should I expect to pay more and around how much for the ATPL. My parents have literally NO money to lend me so will Kingston, or in fact, any university offer a reasonable payment scheme similar to a student loan repayment? Cheers.

Aluminium shuffler

24th Jan 2017, 11:30

Unless you have plenty of money, then university and an ATPL are out - it's one or the other. Average UK university costs are £10K course fees for domiciled students (up to £30k for foreign students) per year, with average living costs of £12pa (15 in London). So, a three year degree outside London is going to cost £66k or more, 4 years will be £88 or more. Then you can factor in the time for lost earnings at university, realistically £30k or more pa, depending on where you end up flying, and the three years less pension contributions and three years more of house price rises before you can consider your first buy... All for a degree you'll never need or use.

pominaus

22nd Mar 2017, 02:02

My 2 cents on this is simple - go to university if the job you want to do requires a university degree. IF it doesn't, don't go.

This doesn't change if you want to fly. IF all you're looking for is a job to pay for flying, seriously, learn a trade. If there's a job you'd like to do AS WELL as flying and you can't really decide, then maybe uni. All in all I don't think many people should be heading off to uni at 18.

When I was at school as others have said, everyone was going to uni, you were basically that dumb kid if you weren't at least applying. I had NO idea what I wanted to do, having become too tall to fly. I had a weekend job in macdonalds, and I'd got myself put in charge of kids parties, basically so I didn't have to work in the kitchen. It was easy and I was good at it, so I thought "eh I could probably be a teacher" when everyone was applying and off I went to spend 4 years becoming a teacher. Of the 30 people I really knew on my course, today 2 of them are actually teachers. Of my wife's 6 closest friends, only three work in the field they went to uni for 10 years later.

It's not the debt. If you live in the UK it doesn't really matter. Honestly by the time the government add another tax to your pay check, it's such a small payment you won't notice it. It's the time you waste.

If I could do it over, I'd have chosen electrician. Sure I don't think I'd have stuck with that either, but I'd have been a lot better off. Ultimately it took me 6 years out of university to find my passion other than flying - programming. If i'd known that 15 years ago, sure I'd have done that at university, but I didn't and really I shouldn't have gone.

Don't go to university for a fall back. Go to university to get the job you want. If you don't know what you want now, the student loans comany will still issue you a loan when you're older .... if you've not used one before.

LaGuardia

10th Jul 2017, 22:48

What about interview if we are in university? They can refuse us because we are still at university? Like online student or thing like that?

Arena_33

12th Jul 2017, 09:33

Hello,

I am an 18 year old fresh from completing A levels and have multiple options in terms of employment/Uni, Im looking for advice on what will benefit me most in achieving the ultimate goal of airline employment .

I currently hold two conditional places at Russell group Universities for Aerospace engineering .

I'm also in the process of applying to Ramp agent/Airfield operations jobs at multiple London airports . I understand these jobs are relatively low paid and will take longer to save the funds required to start training, but my question is will the experience in the aviation industry benefit me over a job in the city paying much more. Or will the other option benefit me more, being go to University, get an engineering degree and gain experience in the aviation industry that way .

Any help would be greatly appreciated .

average-punter

12th Jul 2017, 11:18

If you're offered engineering at a decent uni then grab it with both hands I would suggest! You can save far quicker and get experience in a well paid field which would work well whilst you're job hunting after finishing training.

All my opinion of course - good luck :ok:

LaGuardia

12th Jul 2017, 11:42

My own experience, I stopped school to help my family and I started working in a company before finishing my studies this year, I have now finished my studies (A-level) and will start a distance learning for university.
I have now money for my training to start this year. The experience I had at work helped me a lot in my choices. But it's not the same for you, I had to stop to help my parents. It was an obvious choice.

Arena_33

12th Jul 2017, 15:28

Thank you for the replies .

I will more than likely be going to University, however I would love to be able to start training in 4/5 years rather than in 8 .

What are people's opinions on Air Traffic Controlling for 5/6 years to save for flight training?

Chris the Robot

14th Jul 2017, 21:39

Air Traffic Controlling (if you go in via NATS) will involve being on a training wage for three years, money goes up quite a bit after that. Financially, I'd say it's better than a uni degree though that's if you're amongst the couple of percent of people that make it in and subsequently pass training. I'm also inclined to think they'll want you to stay for more than a couple of years. I don't know anything about the ATCO/SATCO route I'm afraid.

If you're looking at ramp jobs, take a look at platform jobs on the railway. At my place they earn £25k per year plus final salary pension plus loads of overtime opportunities. There's a bloke at my place who makes about £40k a year on the platforms, he does loads of overtime but if you want to save quickly, it's an option. You could also consider plumbing or something like that, I know a lad who did it for a few years, has a house (in London), spouse and kid at 25.

Arena_33

15th Jul 2017, 17:00

Thanks for the replies,
if I get the grades and make my offer I will go to University, if not I'll consider these suggestions .

AyrTC

16th Jul 2017, 06:49

Arena 33
As had been pointed out it is very difficult to get into NATS as a Trainee Air Traffic Controller. If you did I believe you are bonded to them for five years, however I do not know from which point that starts. Also be aware that you can be posted to any of their units not necessarily the unit of your choice.
Also be aware that if your OJTI's at the unit find out that you are only using them to become a pilot they may get a little bit p*ssed off!

sudden twang

20th Aug 2017, 10:11

If you want to be a pilot get the money to train as efficiently as you can. If you want to be an engineer get an engineering degree. If you want to be a test pilot do both.
Now Is a good time to train to fly it maybe a v different story in a few years time. I've worked with pilots with top class aero eng degrees and pilots with psychology degrees. All you need to know about aero eng to be a pilot is in DP Davies book "Handling the big jets". I've never seen a pilot use his eng degree ( except TP ) but I have seen pilots use their psychology degrees writing/presenting CRM courses.
Post 2015 legislation the house building industry have a variety of new regulations that require oversight. Get qualified in some of those and make hay whilst the sun shines. There are parallels with the aviation industry, its quick to get the quals and it pays well / hour. Conducting H and S evaluations/ inspections running your own company will give you life skills and experiences on a par with Uni.
Aero eng requires a lot of v hard work and over a full career as a pilot will cost you up to £500k in fees/loss of earnings ( yes I've done the maths with the BA longevity pay scales ).
I've asked dozens and dozens of uni educated pilots the question if they had their time again would they go to uni. It's 50/50. Of the 50% that would still go their reasoning is that the job market was poor at the time and they valued the experience.
If you want to go to uni then go,just do a logical risk assessment. At least you will have an answer to a pilot interview Q "tell us of a time when you've taken a risk". It's ironic to see candidates struggle at interview answering the risk question when their risk assessment strategy or lack of it is plastered all over their CV in the form of the biggest risk/ benefit decision of their lives thus far.
I'm not anti uni I've supported two kids through it. A good degree from a good uni is vital for a place on some of the grad schemes but a degree in accountancy may not be if you can get onto a fast track programme with one of the major firms post A level. I would question the usefulness of a degree in underwater basket weaving from a uni no ones ever heard of.

777ES

24th Aug 2017, 16:56

Like most of us I've been wanting to be a pilot since pretty much I was born. When I finished school my parents suggested me to enroll in a university to give me better chances of employment and to give me a backup plan in case something bad happens in the future. Let's not forget the pilot's market is very volatile and it can change any day, and also I can't guarantee I'll always be in good health.

I obviously didn't want to follow that path during that time, but I knew it was the right thing to do and now a few years have passed and I hold an engineering degree that gave me the job as a pilot I've always wanted on the first try whilst I've watched people (most of them being 18-19) being turned down for lacking experience. A few years to become the best version of yourself is definitely worth it if in the end you're going to get to your biggest dream, working as a pilot for 30-40 years on which you'll get plenty of flying hours, but this is just my opinion and personal experience.

Best of luck to you all!

Procrastinus

24th Aug 2017, 19:44

If you want to become a pilot - just go and get your licences. Without them you are useless to a company.
University is therefore a waste of time and you will only end up 3 years or so behind your contemporaries.
But if you are unsure about flying for a living, you should reconsider the expense of obtaining a licence, and perhaps then university will give you some breathing space and other career options.

HBZ737

25th Aug 2017, 12:36

Personally I wouldn't be distracted by HE (Uni) if you want to become a pilot.

Most airlines are only asking for 5 GCSEs (most 16 year olds finish with 12 these days).

However some airlines have asked for degrees (Generation easyJet being one for preferred choice stream).

It is important you can demonstrate competency in maths and physics and ultimately this will be needed for ATPL GS.

I Lecture and instruct in a sim (B738). I lecture Aeronautical Engineering and my students have not found it an advantage on application. I do believe it makes you a better pilot though. Not necessarily immediately towards flying but understanding systems can help when problems occur, be them operational or fundamental aircraft failures. However this is sufficiently covered to do the job via ATPL GS.

In terms of paying Uni back. Well I finished ten years ago. I started Uni late after embarking on an ATPL that didn't go through. Anyway, I pay £200 p/m straight out of my top line. They will continue taking it until its settled. I did a 3 year BEng then a teaching qual/Masters. It's nowhere near £60k though because fees were IRO £3k pa at the time.

Not all pilots stay flying. Some go into management so a degree could help their.

I guess if you found yourself against one other and they couldn't decide who to offer the job too but you were degree qualified and the other one wasn't, they might consider you a safer option as you've demonstrated the ability to operate at that academic level and therefore are more likely to pass the course. Assuming you had a proper degree that is and not one in David Beckham studies or similar!

Mr.Meerkat

17th Feb 2018, 23:48

Bro

18th Feb 2018, 09:29

Some university courses demand more study time than others. Even so you might find that university studying, plus part time work, plus ATPL ground school study to be too demanding on your time.
Assuming that you do get into university try to join the UAS, good quality instruction and free flying.

redsnail

18th Feb 2018, 11:14

First things first. Do a medical and find out if there's any thing there stopping you. Vision, hearing, diabetes etc.
What degree are you planning to do? Obviously, different degrees have different course loads.
The PPL and a degree should be relatively easy. ATPL subjects and a degree? Now the work load will really ramp up.

If you can, do the flying in chunks, it is much better than doing 1 lesson a week. You'll spend half the lesson revising the last one...

Regarding the socialising. I am assuming you simply mean you don't like crowded venues with lots of noise? I also assume you do have some friends that you do like to be with to go to the movies etc. Reason why I ask is that the "notechs" part of a pilot is just as important as the technical skills. I can't tell you the difference sitting next to someone all day who is agreeable, socially relaxed and competent versus someone who is not.

Another thing to consider, since you'll be doing this modular (instead of full time), the chances of you landing a RHS in a Jet in the UK is sadly pretty slim with only 250 hours. Your first job is probably going to be either instructing or if the economy is buoyant, a turboprop.

hobbit1983

18th Feb 2018, 17:40

1. You are almost certainly going to overwork yourself trying to do it all at once. What degree is it? Have you considered a combination flying/degree course, such as the ones at Kingston, Bucks etc?

Being an introvert is not necessarily an advantage. You despise loud noises with lots of people? Good luck being based at an airport. You are going to have to get on and work, sometimes in a small space for hours, with lots of people. Airlines tend to look for stable extroverts.

2. No.

3. No idea.

Why are you bothering to take years and thousands out to do a degree if you want to become a pilot? You don't need one.

myNameIsSlava

14th May 2019, 05:44

Hey Guys.

Just came up with possibility to get Aviation degree in City University of London. They offer to get MSc without BSc but having ATPL.

Does anyone know about that? The offer is actually very attractive but some doubts exists in myself

I mean is that degree recognized around the world?

Genghis the Engineer

14th May 2019, 12:31

City University is well regarded, as is their MSc in Air Transport Management. You would be taught by some very good people - and can expect to be doing a lot of very hard work. You can expect first to be coming up to the standard of a BSc graduate in study skills, then doing the equivalent of a year's tough full time study.

And yes, they do accept established ATPLs without undergraduate degrees, and are internationally recognised.

myNameIsSlava

15th May 2019, 05:21

Thank you!

For now I just have no opportunity to go full time for a degree as i do airline flying. Thats why I was considering others way to get a degree.
Anyway, even though i dont know you, my doubts has been lessen :)

Jarrod Smith

27th May 2019, 13:13

ComeFlyWithB

27th May 2019, 22:29

Guys, let me give you some advice from my perspective.

At 16, the idea of being in your early twenties without flying is horrific. However, that is more than likely going to be the case no matter what route you take.

Should you go to uni? If you ask anyone a few years older than you, and anyone in the know, the answer is most likely "if you can, then yes". Here's why:
1. You will have something to fall back on, and indeed be able to get a decent well paid job whilst you wait for the first flying job.
2. You will have fun. Do not fall into the trap of thinking you need to be flying for a job by the age of 19. Relax, get out of your parent's house, and grow up. It will take most of university to grow up and learn who you actually are.
3. You get out of your parent's house, and get the opportunity to do things you would not otherwise be able to. The level of maturity of people I know who went to university was far above that of those who didn't, until at least the mid twenties.
4. You will actually have things to talk about in interviews. (Insert aircraft operator here) want their pilots to have life experience. Most pax do not want to see a mid pubescent kid with acne and bumfluff flying their aircraft.
5. Just to reiterate, you will grow up. I can't drill this down enough.
6. If you take a look at most pilots these days, a degree is a given. The competition for jobs is high, and anything you have which puts you higher in the food chain is worth having.

As for the lack of maths and physics, if you passed GCSE and are willing to put the work in then there shouldn't be a problem at all. There are a stable of several good flying schools, with anything above PPL you will probably want to be at one of them. You will be investing upwards of £40k. Not something you really want to risk.

My conclusion - Go to university if you can. Well and truly worth it. Save up between now and uni and you can afford to do your PPL one summer whilst you're there, hour build for fun for the rest of your time there. Come out, get a half decent job and continue. You'll still be in a plane by your mid twenties and you'll have a much better grasp on life than the other route.

Just my tuppence though...:oh:

Good advice to start off your thread! I’ll chip in whilst trying to sleep after being on night flights with work.

1, You will have something to fall back on and get a decent job (whatever quantifies as decent in you own eyes) if you study something that is actually relevant and leads directly into a career or opens the door into several careers. For arguments sake Architecture or Medicine for going straight into a career on the one hand or Law or economics on the other which opens doors to various careers eg Law, teaching, banking and so fourth. However with that being said and anyone please correct me if I’m wrong besides Medicine and related fields I can’t actually think off the top of my head any other degree courses which directly lead / basically guarantee a job upon completion.

2, Undoubtedly you will have fun and gain life experience which is key for interviews and questions however this is also possible via apprenticeships and travelling. I was literally having this conversation with the captain yesterday evening who happens to be on the recruitment team for the airline I work for. In his eyes and straight from his mouth “life experience or something different eg competing at a high level in sport or balancing ATPLs whilst working full time is far more impressive in my eyes than a degree or mummy and daddy paying £100k for an integrated flight school”

I’ve said it before on this forum and will do many more times Im sure. when it comes to interviews and actually getting a job you could smash the CV sifting, tech interviews and sim assessments but at the end of the day if you can’t make conversation besides what your next Instagram post will be about and the people doing the interviewing can’t imagine sitting next to you for 10hrs or being down route for 4 days, guess what. You aren’t getting hired.

3, It depends who you are as a person. My younger sister went to a red brick university, studied law and achieved a high 2:1, intellectually she’s superb common sense wise ... not so much. Has she used her degree since leaving ? No she’s been in Australia going on 18 months working in solar farms earning £1500 + a week. Is she mature....... probably not in a lot of people’s eyes is she employable undoubtedly. When it comes down to interview questions you have to be a tad different to stand out, will you be able to do that via a university experience ? Probably. Would you be able to answer a similar question having lived and worked in a. Foreign environment outside of your comfort zone ? Most likely! Everyone learns and matured in different ways.

I’ve ranted on far too long so to summaries. Should you go to University, Personally I believe the days of ‘needing’ to are numbered. It’s more of a generational stigma and old boys club talking point unless your chosen profession requires you to do so for example Medicine. Investing time in learning a trade, gaining experience at a company and then opening a business of your own is the way to go. At the end of the day becoming a pilot requires money and determination with a touch of luck on your side. If you want to go to university go for it. If you don’t, then don’t. You have endless options to get where you want to be. save up from a part time job for example, lifeguard, gym instructor, retail and take a year out, work in a different country, save everything you can and come back into a relatively stable job whilst training.

For clarification or because it could potentially help you my ‘story so far’.

I went to Uni on and off 3 times and gained absolutely sweet FA, I’ve worked in America, ran my own business, Competed in swimming internationally and been fortunate to travel Fairly extensively. I can guarantee you all of my interview answers based on experiences did not come from Uni. I’m currently working as cabin crew to pay for the rest of my ATPLs and hours. I’ll be taking a loan out for the CPL/MEIR. I had a trial flight at 15 but it wasn’t until 18 months ago I sat down and worked out I could achieve the goal by saving X amount monthly. I’m 26 now and hope to be finished late next year.

ComeFlyWithB

27th May 2019, 22:37

ComeFlyWithB

27th May 2019, 23:04

G'day, my name is Jarrod Smith and if you didn't guess already I'm from Australia. I am seeking some much-needed advice regarding cadetships, university and flying schools. To begin with, I am 18 years old studying a Bachelor's of Aviation in Queensland and aiming to become a commercial airline pilot as my final goal. I am finishing up my studying for the first trimester of uni and I've heard a lot about it being a waste of time and that I would have a better chance getting into a flight school and going from there. I have attempted cadetships and was unsuccessful, I feel as if waiting for another cadetship intake to show up can take up a lot of time. The time I would rather spend flying. I am seeking some advice from pilots who have gone in all these directions and see which is best for me, as I am coming across a big decision. To help some of you answer, what is my preference? I am leaning to the idea of joining a flying school and going from there. However, there are some doubts in my family that I would have a harder time finding a reliable job as a pilot this way. Or that this method would take too long, with poor pay and work conditions. What are the pros and cons of these below and overall which do you believe would the most beneficial?

Q1: Are universities worth it? (Bachelors of Aviation)

Q2: Are cadetships worth it? (Just keep studying and waiting)

Q3: Should I find a flying school and begin my journey there?

Can I grab any personal opinions on these questions possibly advice or personal experiences which could aid? If you think I should proceed a different pathway please suggest it also.

Thanks for reading,

Jarrod

i wont proclaim to have any experience of the Australian education system because I don’t however in my personal option going to University to study a degree not related to a fall back option or something you’re interested in is a waste of time. Let’s say you gain your degree in aviation, get a commercial flying job and then lose your license Or Medicals.... what then ?

If you go to the uni route / vocational training. Study something or anything you can imagine enjoying besides flying incase god forbid that privilege gets taken from you. However due to my lack of knowledge you may very well need a degree to get into an airline if it’s anything like the American Majors where a 4 year degree is usually mandatory however American aviation jobs is a whole other topic for a different day. But my advice remains - if you do need a a degree, make it something you find interesting besides aviation that you’d be happy to do if one day you had no other options. Work a part time job on the side. Finish uni, start working and complete training in your spare time.

2, Again from limited knowledge I believe cadetships are outrageously expensive, I’d go so far as saying Australia is one of if not the most expensive place to train in the world. I really don’t know enough about the aviation industry over there to give you any remotely useful advice on this one besides the age old integrated vs modular debate in the U.K. will the integrated schools get you into an airline straight away ? Yes if it’s sponsored by whichever airline, not necessarily if it’s just the training. I have 2 friends who trained at one of the big schools in the U.K. one Sponsored by a Middle Eastern carrier and one who was a whitetail cadet. They still took 6 and 12 months to start flying respectively. In theory if you have around £45,000 and the aptitude you could complete everything from PPL to CPL/MEIR in 12 - 14 months if you had a considerable amount of luck with weather on your side and a desire to spend that amount of Time in certain parts of Europe.

3, Do your research, look into all options whether that be the US, South Africa, Europe or Aus. Find which way will suit you best and go from there. Take everyone’s advice with an. Pinch of salt and don’t be sold by the glossy brochures.

ComeFlyWithB

27th May 2019, 23:10

Hi there, I'm looking at quick ways to becoming an airline pilot. Integrated training is obviously too expensive and my parents would never in a million years take such a financial risk. Modular is the definitely the way for me. I'm inquiring to a university about their Aerospace degree which is Aerospace Technology with Pilot Studies (BSc) I get a PPL along with this degree. I'm wondering if there any other ways of becoming a pilot after A Levels, i.e. Cadet Scheme sponsorships. Thanks

1, Train modularly around work, life, any commitments
2, Go to an integrated school
3, Attempt to join her majesty’s armed forces either as a pilot or something else and work towards becoming a pilot whilst in.

unfortunately unlike many other professions which have numerous ways in there are only 3 ways to get qualified in this industry.

ComeFlyWithB

27th May 2019, 23:26

Hey guys!
To be begin with, I'd like to apologise if similar questions have been asked to death but I still wanted some opinions thus here is this thread.

I'm a 17 year old who is a wannabe commercial pilot. Ever since seeing and stepping on my first plane (funnily enough a 747) when I 4 years old, I've wanted to become one. As my age (and title) suggests, I'm in my last year of secondary/high school (S6). I was never going to persuade my mother to allow me to skip university (I actually want a degree as well) and go straight for pilot training so I've managed to make a compromise with her (and myself).

I've applied to 5 universities (3 in England, 2 in Scotland) and if I end up going to Edinburgh university, I'm planning to carry out pilot training while studying in University which allows me to reach my dream sooner while satisfying my mother's requirement. I guess right now most of you are probably thinking about finance as this sounds like disaster, which is probably true if my case was different.
As a Scottish student, unlike my counterparts down south in England, I don't have to pay for tuition fees meaning I won't have to take out a loan for tuition, especially if I stay in Edinburgh as I'd be able to live at home and not pay for accommodation (parents work abroad and are away 8+ months so win/win situation for both my parents and I).
In terms of the fees for pilot training, from working part-time and saving, I've already saved the majority of the costs for PPL training so if I continued to work part-time and included my SAAS grant, I'd actually be able to pay about 70% for the rest of training (assumes total cost from zero to frozen is about £55K). I'd also have my student loan at my disposal (which have the benefits of only 1.5% interest ATM plus if I earn below the threshold, I don't have to "repay" meaning no glaring issues with debt) and would easily cover the other 30%.
In other words, apart from how I'll probably struggle to find the time to study, work part-time and do training, at least in terms of finance, I should be all good.

Okay, down to my questions:
1. What do you guys think of this plan? I feel like I'd be overworking myself as instead of the common full-time job+training, I'm planning to work part-time, study full-time and train, all at the same time. At least I'm an introvert so not having time to socialise does not bother me plus I hate partying as I despise loud places with lots of people.
2. Would airlines be bothered by how it took me 4+ years to complete training? Note: I'm planning to try to obtain my PPL during my summer holiday (starts 23rd May and ends sometime September) as I should be able to afford it by then.
3. What's a good flight school around central belt Scotland? I'm considering ACS as its less than a hour drive away whereas tayside is a little far and the rest doesn't seem to offer CPL training (but will be fine for PPL).

Thanks guys!

P.S. Sorry for the long post. I could have probably taken out some of the information but I wanted to show that at least financially, its viable from my perspective. Also, I know I can just save everything up and start training after my degree but as I'm stubborn, for no real reason, I don't want to do that...

if you actually want a degree and have the benefit of gaining one for free it’s kind of a no brainer. Doing your ppl over the summer is a great idea. If I could redo mine I’d head to the states for 6 weeks and do it for around £8,000 the weather In the U.K. and fast completion of flight training just do not go together.

In terms of Studying for a degree and completing ATPLs .....the best answer is. it depends. I’d say if you’re studying a fairly relevant course to aviation or a low workload course it probably is doable because realistically it’s going to be equally or less intense compared to working full time (I say this because getting into Edinburgh is no easy feat) Plenty of people work full time, have stressful events going on eg moving houses, having kids and do just fine, personally I’m working as cabin crew whilst doing mine and although I’ve set myself a pretty tough schedule, messed around some what initially I’d say I’m pretty much still on track. The only thing you’d need to factor in would be revision weeks and exams around your course, lectures etc.

4, I very much doubt it unless it was over a very large amount of years with that being said though I’m confident people get there PPL when they have there first amount of Meaningful disposable income say early - late twenties and then complete the advanced flying phase say 3 years later after completing the exams and saving for the biggest expense.

I don’t know the schools that way we’ll enough however from social media at least ACS seem to be decent.

redsnail

29th May 2019, 09:46

G'day Jarrod,
Did you get any feedback as to why you didn't get through the cadetship interview? Anything you can take away from the experience?
I haven't worked in Australia for nearly 20 years so I am a bit out of touch.
I am assuming you have HSC maths and physics? That's all Qantas wants. Degrees are not a formal requirement for pilot employment in Australia.
What sort of aviation degree are you getting? I am guessing it comes with ATPL subjects and a CPL/IR thrown in? Or is that on top of 3 years study?
I had a look at the Uni of Southern Queensland's page - it looks great for airline preparation but it's highly likely that your first job will be as far away from airline flying as possible. You'll more than likely start your career in the outback flying knackered C210 or C207s. Keep that in the back of your mind as you move through the degree.

Johan2314

13th Dec 2019, 17:35

If uni is free for you, yes. But you don't as well use the money for flight training, if you have to pay.

Brix

9th Jan 2020, 11:19

Before I started flying, I finished my Masters degree in aeronautical engineering. It may have helped me a little in answering stupid theoretical questions during interviews, but apart from that, nobody ever cared.

I never had the chance to get an office job besides flying where I could use my experience and knowledge to the benefit of my colleagues and the company. In the beginning I made many suggestions to improve processes, mainly IT- related. Personal relationships, not qualification is all that matters.

Now, turning 60 years of age, I am working as a first officer with no prospect of being upgraded again, with 16000 hours experience treated like a schoolboy by arrogant 'trainers', who are abusing their power, because training, which is graded is - in my humble opinion - checking.

This is a terrible business. I am looking forward to the day when I can afford to stop.

rob_ste97

9th Feb 2021, 12:02

Hi everyone.
I’m in my final year of an aeronautical engineering degree and truth be told I’m not doing very well. This isn’t through lack of effort, I’m just genuinely struggling with the course itself.
I enrolled on this degree to see if I had the brain to train as a pilot, as I know that an engineering degree and the ATPL knowledge is similar in content and difficulty.
It looks like I’ll be graduating with a 3rd class degree, which is a huge disappointment. I do want to work in aviation but I’m coming to the realisation that technical work isn’t right for me (stuff that’s number heavy or technical I don’t do well in).
I might have the aptitude to do a PPL, I’m not sure now if I’d find it too challenging, but I’m wondering if there’s still a place for me in aviation that doesn’t require a degree and is within my capabilities.

also I know this is a pilot forum, and I will be leaving after this post but first just wondered if anyone had any tips as I feel a bit lost now.

ps, not blaming anyone but myself for my failures.

Banana Joe

9th Feb 2021, 12:08

No, they are not similar in knowledge and difficulty, not at all. ATPL is more similar to A levels or even GCSE. And not having an engineer's mind will also help you through your ATPL. Engineers tend to overthink.

I think you overestimated the complexity of an ATPL course by quite a lot and wasted time, money and energy in a worthless degree for what you intend to do as a career. But with your degree one day you can also take a MSc in Aviation Safety at Cranfield.

Friend of mine is a 737 FO without high school diploma. Mind you, that didn't stop him from passing exams, skills tests and get a job.

paco

9th Feb 2021, 12:16

As with computing (which is my other hat) what you learn at uni has nothing to do with real life - I wouldn't worry about your perceived inability to cope with somebody else's standard, much of which is BS anyway.

Just remember that the Wright brothers were bicycle mechanics....

rob_ste97

9th Feb 2021, 12:23

Banana Joe

This is my worry. Most pilots don’t have a degree I believe, but the fact is that they *could* get one: clearly I have demonstrated that I’m not capable of that, which of course concerns me that I’m not cut out for technical study. I’m also not a teenager either, if I was, I could just be lazy or immature. I’m 24 which is even more humiliating.

I do like to imagine that there’s an alternative aviation career such as ground handling or check in that I might be better suited to, allowing me to work in the environment I love.

Banana Joe

9th Feb 2021, 12:26

I think you're worring too much. I do not intend to get a degree and many others don't either. Definitely not an engineering degree. A piece of paper is just that, a piece of paper.

SID PLATE

9th Feb 2021, 12:28

Banana Joe is correct ... too much technical engineering knowledge can be counter productive.
I managed a 2.1 in aero eng. I was then fortunate enough to be selected for a sponsored integrated ATPL course. The BSc on the application apparently helped during the selection, however the degree level wasn't mentioned or considered.
I then failed the first ATPL aeronautics exam by over thinking the multi choice questions.
During my career I've only had to draw on about 20% of the knowledge allegedly acquired during the degree course. Taylor's theorem was, and always will be, totally beyond me.
You don't need to know the workings inside the black boxes. You only need the knowledge of what part they play in an aircraft system, and which controls and switches to operate if they stop working.

1DC

9th Feb 2021, 12:28

Young man don't talk yourself down before you start, you obviously have the incentive to want to become a pilot so go and try and become one.

olster

9th Feb 2021, 12:33

Rob if you get an aeronautical engineering degree ‘even’ a third that is still quite an achievement. The ATPL is not difficult although the volume of information is high. Don’t beat yourself up. If you can cope with an engineering degree you will not have an issue with the academic content of the ATPL. For example the maths is much more basic. The only point I would make is that if you are determined to fly, enjoy the journey. Do NOT pay up front, go modular and avoid the larger and more ‘prestigious’ (they are not) flying schools. I am involved in recruitment for an airline so I am not talking completely through my ahem, rear. Good luck!

Hot 'n' High

9th Feb 2021, 12:45

Wow! I'm not sure you realise just how fortunate you are! I did near on 35 years Aero Engineer (Forces then Industry). I got a "Desmond" BTW. How many times did I "use" my degree? Erm, never! Not once! It was, effectively, irrelevant - unless, you go on into specific research/design/geek-mode.

I learned all I needed for all the jobs I did through equipment and other courses post-Degree. What counts is "practical engineering ability" which has more to do with you working on your car at home than any applications of Laplace Transforms or knowing the annealing temp for some exotic alloy! My Degree turned out to be a 3 year hurdle to be survived with "beer drinking skills" being the most, sorry, only useful skill derived from the 3 years!

So, you will be fortunate to have an initial career to help fund your flying and then act as a fall-back career should the flying go TU - as it will at times. I swapped between the 2 on a couple of occasions and then went back to Engineering for good when I unexpectedly lost my Medical quite early on.

So forget your "3rd" - and realise that you have a huge advantage which, like it was for me, meant I was never out of work for long! And I enjoyed both professions too! Yes, missed flying but also enjoyed my Engineering.

As to a degree being equivalent to ATPLs? Banana Joe is correct and, certainly for UK ATPLs, you often just had to learn what the Exam required as an answer. One got the feeling that, for a lot of it, you were learning how to pass a set of Exams - not what was really needed for flying. I'd suggest a "degree" teaches you how to think, ATPLs teach you how to "memorise". Maybe a tad simplistic, but that's how I see it. Others may well disagree (this is PPRuNe after all!).

So, bottom line, count your blessings for your future life, ignore the "3rd" as really not much of an issue and crack on! And good luck with both your careers!

PilotLZ

9th Feb 2021, 13:15

As I see it, the degree in itself is a plus, but the grades aren't that relevant for a pilot job. Even if it's a III, it's still nice to have. Myself, I got a II-1 back in the day. Nobody ever paid any special attention to it, I think. I don't think I would have been anyhow better off now with a I or worse off with a II-2. Those marks mostly matter when applying for postgraduate studies or a grad scheme, definitely not when applying for a pilot job.

I still seem to more or less remember what does one study to call themselves an engineer. Quite a lot of it is a nice brain exercise and a bonus to your general knowledge, but totally irrelevant to a pilot job. Like, how much computational fluid dynamics do pilots do in their day-to-day lives? Or are there any line integrals up there? So, a lot of the academic content you went through will never serve you in the flight deck.

I believe that your basic maths and physics are good enough if you made it into final year of engineering. So, you won't have any trouble getting an ATPL. There are plenty of stressful things out there for you now, please don't make your degree class one of them. Everything will be fine.

rudestuff

9th Feb 2021, 13:31

If you make it to the end and get your degree, you've proved you have what it takes. (Determination basically).

There's nothing hard about learning to fly - certainly nothing harder than learning to drive for example - there's just more of it. Whomever told you that the ATPLs are like a degree has done you a huge disservice: the maths you need for the exams is GCSE level, while the maths you use in the cockpit is the three times table! I averaged a week per subject for the ATPL exams, it's really just a massive memory exercise.

On top of that, a degree isn't required to be a pilot (the US majors are the exception) in fact I really don't understand why people go to university of they want to be a pilot... if you'd spent the time and money you've just spent learning to fly you'd have a fATPL now.

rob_ste97

9th Feb 2021, 13:56

rudestuff

re: the whole “why go to uni” thing, I think some people, myself included, go to uni because they can’t afford pilot training (although it’s backfired for me because my degree is useless). I know many talented young people on my course who are on track for 1st class degrees and masters in aeronautics, and they too want to be pilots but haven’t come from backgrounds where their parents are able to or willing to pay for a fATPL.

clvf88

9th Feb 2021, 14:04

I'm probably repeating a lot of whats been said already - but to reiterate:

1) ATPL theory is not complicated and probably around GCSE level. Its challenging, but due to the volume of information, not the complexity. If you were accepted onto a degree course in Aero.Eng I have no doubt about your ability to pass it all with no issues.

2) You don't need a degree to be a pilot in the UK. Many of my colleagues don't, and they are 3+ years ahead of me in their careers and not paying off very expensive student loans.

Go do some private flying. I'm sure this will boost your confidence and tell you whether you really do love it or not. From then on, your next move should be fairly easy.

Capt Pit Bull

9th Feb 2021, 14:08

Well, I’m going to go against the flow. I studied electrical and electronic engineering and I found it invaluable in my career, giving my an early start as a technical trainer and then onwards and upwards.

But I was rubbish on the degree course, especially the maths, but I got a great overview of engineering and especially control systems. Stumbled out of the far end of the course with a 3rd.

Comparing the ATPLs to a degree level of knowledge is a bit pointless because degrees have wildly different complexity. Overall, I’d say more than A levels but quite a bit below a Degree. Unless that degree is in some totally :mad: discipline (e.g. any of the Marxist indoctrination fields).

rob_ste97

9th Feb 2021, 14:40

My bad marks have come primarily from computer analysis (eg parts testing). I really cocked up one of my assignments and got 44% as well as a 3rd in the Diss so it’s pulled my whole grade down massively.
Being completely honest, and without the wish to over-share on a public forum, it’s destroyed what little confidence I had in my own ability. I’ve found the degree useful but don’t have anything to show on paper for it.

rob_ste97

9th Feb 2021, 14:42

clvf88

thanks for the advice. I think that what worries is me is that yes, plenty of pilots don’t have a degree but that’s through choice rather than Because they would have flopped out of it like I did.
I do love flying, I’ve done a bit (but less than most people at my age), and I do enjoy it a lot.

Specaircrew

9th Feb 2021, 14:44

As has already been said, you don't need a degree to be a pilot and neither do you need an ATPL! Some of us flew for the military and had lots of fun all our adult lives with just 8 'O' levels! If you're clever enough to get into Uni then you'll find that the 'technical' side of flying isn't that hard, you'll not know if you have the 'stick and throttle' aptitude until you get airborne though.

Professor Plum

9th Feb 2021, 14:59

Rob,

As has been said earlier in this thread-you dont need a degree to become a pilot. If i may add some perspective to your situation-I wasn’t clever enough to get a place at uni to study aero eng. Instead I went and studied something easier. By getting a 3rd in your degree I’d suggest you’re more intelligent than me!

I’ve been in the RAF as a Pilot (and now instructor) circa 15 years now. Never needed my degree, although it may come in useful as a back up / If I lost my medical. Beyond initial application stage, I don’t think anyone cared about my degree.

I’ve also now got my CPL/IR, and the atpls are certainly not anything harder than A’level (if that). Just a huge volume to get through.

Concentrate on your degree-you’ve nearly finished it! And i would be amazed if getting a 3rd would in any way negatively impact upon a career as a pilot.

Good luck!

ex82watcher

9th Feb 2021, 15:09

Ever thought about becoming an ATCO ? NATS require only 5 GCESEs,and I think you can now do the aptitude tests on-line.I always wanted to fly for a living,but ended up with a career in ATC & loved it.
If you really want to be a pilot though - persevere.My best mates son joined the RN as a trainee pilot,was chopped,then chopped as an observer and left.He's now an operational pilot in the RAF ! (Oh,and no degree )

rob_ste97

9th Feb 2021, 15:39

Specaircrew

Hi there. I have some limited flying experience in the form of a glider pilot licence and was fortunate enough to receive a PPL scholarship this year and have done 6 hours prior to lockdown. I don’t think that my instructor has any serious concerns about my aptitude (or at least he hasn’t said anything yet!)

Bealzebub

9th Feb 2021, 15:47

Rob,

Do something that you feel you would be good at, and that makes you happy. Life isn’t all about professional flying and certainly it isn’t a career for everybody for any number of reasons. Often people will embark on a life plan and then change it based on experience and circumstance. Successes and failures are just a part of normal life and they very rarely set anything in stone.

Airline pilot as an aspirational career has never been easy and the attrition rate has always been very high. That said, the current metamorphosis is very likely to make things even more difficult and less desirable in the future. Your future is yours alone and only you can make the decisions at each crossroads you come to.

rob_ste97

9th Feb 2021, 15:51

Thank you very much for your thoughts. I have never been academically “good” (think, below average), and I think that I want to work in aviation, but need to choose a job that’s within reach for me and as has been rightly said flying is an extremely difficult career and employers can afford to be very picky about who they employ.

I am thinking maybe check-in or ground handling.

+TSRA

9th Feb 2021, 16:15

I would second nearly everything that has been said above, and add that part of being a professional pilot beyond the technical aspect is knowing how to deal with one's limitations.

So you got a bad mark on an assignment and a course. Lots of pilots have a subject that is beyond them. I teach in the sim all the time and come across professional pilots who have a very limited understanding of say, electrics or hydraulics. It's all pure magic to them. But they don't need to know how current flows through a wire, or that when current reverses that's a bad thing. They just need to know that when this indicator reads 0 and this one reads 32, that's a bad thing and if that bad thing happens, do this checklist.

You are going to fail at something in aviation. In fact, you're going to fail at a lot in aviation. Everyone does. Everyone has failed an exam, failed a flight test, or did something inside the airplane they're not particularly proud of. Some have done all three, and yet they're some of the best pilots I know. They're not the best because of their mistake, but because of how they handled themselves during and after. They learned, adapted, moved on, and shared their experience so someone else wouldn't go through the same thing.

This is going to come off very harsh, but if you cannot do the same and you would prefer to wallow in self-pity, then this is not the industry for you. If, on the other hand, you can get over your mistakes and turn them into a positive, then come on in. This industry has a very high barrier to entry and there is no sense in making yourself one of those barriers if this is truly what you want to do.

You have a bunch of professional pilots telling you this is not an extremely difficult career and that you're overthinking this. So now, the ball is in your court and you have no one to blame but yourself if in 50 years you're playing the regret game because you let two bad marks define your life.

Professor Plum

9th Feb 2021, 16:19

Very wise words +TSRA

olster

9th Feb 2021, 17:09

I agree TSRA, very good post. Would give it a thumbs up if I could. Getting knocks and displaying resilience to overcome problems is a key attribute of the professional pilot. Attitude is more key than academic attainment (within reason!).

kintyred

9th Feb 2021, 17:23

Rob,

if you’re going to talk yourself out of becoming a pilot, it sounds as though you don’t want it enough. I spent years getting through pilot training by the skin of my teeth....one thing was for sure, if they wanted to get rid of me then they were going have to do the deed. I would never have just rolled over and given up. The problem with not being a pilot is that you then have to work for a living! Keep the faith and give it your best shot. If it doesn’t work out then at least you’ll know it wasn’t your fault.
PS. I got 8% in my maths mock A level....and you think you’ve got problems!

Tay Cough

9th Feb 2021, 17:25

Having achieved a “gentleman’s degree” in Aero (or a Desmond, depending on your era), I have had a successful career as an airline pilot and a parallel career as a commercial flying instructor. The degree has not been especially relevant for the most part and wasn’t a requirement to apply for the job.

The ATPL certainly wasn’t easy but it wasn’t degree level in terms of academic study.

Specaircrew

9th Feb 2021, 17:49

rob_ste97

Well that's a good start but you don't know what you can achieve until you try it. As a pilot you'll be tested every year of your life, in the simulator and in the air as well as written exams. It's not degree level stuff but you need to apply yourself at every stage of training and not give up when the going gets tough. Most of the people who really want to be pilots will achieve their aim, those who think it'll be 'too difficult' probably won't. Get your PPL post lockdown and move forward from there.

rudestuff

9th Feb 2021, 18:51

re: the whole “why go to uni” thing, I think some people, myself included, go to uni because they can’t afford pilot training
This makes no sense... A fATPL is WAY cheaper than a degree. You can certainly do it for £35-40k.

To get a degree you're looking at £9250 per year for 3 years = £27,750 not including living costs. If you work full time for 2 years you can take your £27,750 plus whatever you've managed to save and easily afford to spend the third year getting licenced.

rob_ste97

9th Feb 2021, 19:00

rudestuff

You can’t get a student loan for an fATPL, unless your parents are willing to/able to put their house up for it.

Central Scrutinizer

9th Feb 2021, 20:10

rudestuff

It depends where. UK tuitons are amongst the HIGHEST in all of Europe (and the world other than the US for that matter). Studying a degree in many European countries is peanuts compared to the cost of flight training. I studied a 5 year MSc level engineering degree, the combined tuiton of all those years cost LESS than my PPL. It's perfectly possible that many young teenagers want to be pilots but study for a degree instead because they can't afford the flight training.

On the other hand, 35-40k for a frozen ATPL is rather optimistic. That's what I paid for the CPL/IR alone, not accounting for PPL, time building, medicals, ATPL course and exams etc. A more realistic figure is 60-70k.

FlightDetent

9th Feb 2021, 20:24

Have not seen this above yet:

The trade skills of a professional pilot in the upcoming 40 years are not going to be based on engineering aptitude or formal technical education. As much as it is a bitter pill to swallow for many of us who did their little fragments of "hardware" science back in the day. For quite some time, that does not make one more appropriately qualified.

Some of that still is and will remain a core must, and as such is defined by the scope of ATPL syllabus and its pass rate limit.s If you have passed the degree, you possess the necessary intellect and mental capacity to pass the ATPLs too.

Specaircrew

9th Feb 2021, 21:03

kintyred

Show off! I got an 'F' for my A level Maths and O level passes for my A level Physics and Chemistry. Hamble had said that I needed two A level passes and I was in..............fortunately the RAF had said that my 'O' levels would do provided that I could drink 6 pints a night and not fall over. Several thousand hours later I'm still glad that I was so lazy in the 6th form :-)

Flaps1Pls

10th Feb 2021, 03:50

I have a BSc and an ATPL and can assure you that the academic content of an ATPL is nowhere near Bachelor Degree level.
Your biggest problem if you do get into aviation is that you might be bored :mad:.
The real question is ; do you love flying ?
Thats all that matters.

bringbackthe80s

10th Feb 2021, 05:13

Ahaha there is no relationship whatsoever between one’s academic capabilities and being a pilot. In fact quite the opposite almost. You need a decent understanding of the theory yes (not even close to an engineering degree), but more importantly you need to quickly use it within a flight operation, within a specific timeframe and in coordination with a number of people from different countries. As you very well understand this has little to do with how well you can solve a logarithm.

Now if the original question was, rubbish state of the industry any alternative career..well then...

rudestuff

10th Feb 2021, 07:41

rob_ste97

You're kind of missing my point I'm afraid.

Let's at least agree that a degree takes 3 years and flight training about one year?

That gives you a 2 year headstart to get a job, preferably two and start saving. With £20k in the bank and good behaviour you could easily borrow the last £15k with no security, or split it over multiple credit cards at 0%

And yes, it is ENTIRELY possible to get an EASA fATPL for £35-40k, you just have to think outside the box

highflyer40

10th Feb 2021, 08:13

PilotLZ

I have never even put the grade obtained on my resume. I put the qualification acquired but omit the grade. Never once been asked what grade I got.

rudestuff

I think going down either the modular or integrated route for the next 5-10 years is extremely risky right now. For years to come there is going to be a glut of pilots on the market and landing that elusive first job is going to be tricky.

rudestuff

10th Feb 2021, 08:34

highflyer40

Agreed, however... It doesn't take long for a glut to turn into a shortage, and as it's almost impossible to predict when that will happen the only mitigation is to be ready for it.

Yes, there's a huge glut because we in the middle of a pandemic - but how long will that take to solve? And when it is, how long will it take for normal service to return? The pilots exist, the planes are parked up so the only thing missing is customers - and I'm sure loads of people will be gagging for a holiday. A great deal of guys in their last 5 years will simply never return to flying due to changes in t&cs, loss of seniority or status etc, plus don't forget 3-4% of pilots retire or lose their medicals every year anyway it's not too hard to envisage another shortage looming, especially if people aren't training.
You can't catch the wave if you aren't in the water - and let's be honest, if you really want to be a pilot you aren't going to let a little thing like competition or pprune stop you...

Central Scrutinizer

10th Feb 2021, 09:28

Very much agree.

Sometimes I wish I hadn't listened to anyone and just did what I wanted. I don't regret having gone to engineering school, but it's been a lot of time and effort which could have been redirected towards becoming a better pilot.

pug

10th Feb 2021, 14:06

rob_ste97

I have a 2:1 BA and 2:1 BSc and ATPLs. I found the ATPL’s by far the most challenging, however I suspect this was due to me completing them in a relatively short timespan and aiming to achieve a high average and first time passes. The subject matter isn’t challenging, as everyone else says it’s the volume of information you’re required to retain which is the tricky bit.

There are some I know who have no academic qualifications beyond GCSE and did exceptionally well at ATPL, others who were on paper far more qualified and didn’t do so well.

I suspect if you even manage to scrape a pass in Aero Eng at degree level then you will likely breeze through the more complex ATPL theory. Much of it is learning by rote and is in many cases an exercise in verbal reasoning more than anything else.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do, certainly don’t write yourself off based on your performance in what I understand to be a demanding degree level course.

Olympia463

10th Feb 2021, 16:41

I have a first class honours degree in engineering (aeronautics major). It was my intention to join the RAF to do my National Service and learn to fly, as I had also passed all the aptitude tests etc at Uni when I applied to get into the Air Squadron. I didn't get in to the UAS, (my legs were too long for the Harvards they were flying at the time - dates me!) but I got a chit which would have had me sent straight to Cranwell when my call up came. Alas, I joined Rolls-Royce on graduation and they trained me as an aircraft engine designer and I was placed in the Conway design team. I was then told that I was now exempt from NS (the Conway was a military engine at that time) and would be serving out my time at R-R and I could forget all about the RAF.
Long story, short - One of my colleagues on the Conway at R-R was a glider pilot (an instructor in fact) and he took me gliding. I learned to fly and eventually I also became an instructor. My engineering degree came in handy when I was made Club Technical Officer and had to look after all the ground kit like winches, vehicles etc.but it was little help for flying. I enjoyed gliding so much that I never bothered to do any power flying apart from odd two seater rides in the Tiger Moth tug on weather flights. I had a long happy time teaching other folk to fly, and flying all over the country in my own glider. 2200 sorties and no prangs. Lots of interesting cross country flights with field landings mostly, and I sent lots of people solo and made lots of friends. My degree was no real help in learning to fly. My skill as a motorcyclist was much more use. If you want to fly for fun, and it is the best fun you can have with your clothes on, I wouldn't want to be a modern airline pilot. Sounds like a very boring job to me.

Oh! and I would't worry about the class of your degree. I had several different careers as an design engineer and I was never ever asked to produce my degree scroll in forty years. I finished my career as a Chief Engineer (on laser guided weapons) with GEC, and that was fun too.

macdo

10th Feb 2021, 17:01

Remember as well most pilots are dumb, so if you have an engineering degree you're already smarter than most.

I loved this comment because in some ways it is true. You will often meet undereducated, degree-less, uncultured pilots who have had a perfectly acceptable airline career. You'll also meet some of the brightest, well educated, and cultured pilots. What all, bar a very few, will have is a great attitude to life and work, a natural intelligence which presents as practical problem solvers and a resilience which is becoming hard to find. Which is why some forward thinking airlines are ditching the HR test and qualification selection for something closer to what it was years ago where the Chief Pilot or DFO would look at the entire person and decide if he fitted their criteria for being the right person to employ. Please finish your degree, but don't judge yourself by it as the airlines could be missing out on a really good candidate. this speaking as BA Hons. Fail and 16000 Airbus hours.

DrCuffe

10th Feb 2021, 18:55

Primary degrees really test your exam taking skills, and not much else. It took me five years to get a really weak general degree in science, it should take three. But since then, I've got two MSc's, and a PhD. Don't read to much into how you are doing on your primary degree.
Get out there, and get flying. If you really want something, it will happen, and I firmly believe that grit and persistence is more important that out of the box smarts.

TryingToAvoidCBs

10th Feb 2021, 20:41

If it makes you feel any better, I got terrible GCSEs. So bad infact my school prohibited me from even applying for A-levels and kicked me out of school. Ended up going to college and did quite well. Got onto a Degree course that was way over my head, and despite resitting my final year, still only walked out with a 3rd. Somhow managed to convince to head of dept to let me do an MSc (I was paying after all). I was oddly offered a PhD even though my MSc wasn't great, but I declined as I didn't particularly enjoy number crunching in a windowless office for 15 months and couldn't bare the thought of doing it for another 3 years.....plus the rest of my life. So I decided to give flight training a chance before it was too late. There were a couple of ATPL subjects my brain just didn't understand, but with PPL knowledge and a determination to get through them, they're not difficult. I ended up teaching ATPLs for a few years after I finished which I loved, and now sit happily in the RHS of a shiny jet. The vast majority of my collegues dont have degrees, they're not needed, unless you want something to fall back on in the future. But given the current market, falling back on a practical vocation is better than any degree.

rudestuff

11th Feb 2021, 05:15

The biggest problem I see with an airline pilot pursuing a non-flying job is persuading then that you want to be there, and that you aren't just waiting for another airline job to come along...

paco

11th Feb 2021, 08:00

"Which is why some forward thinking airlines are ditching the HR test and qualification selection for something closer to what it was years ago where the Chief Pilot or DFO would look at the entire person and decide if he fitted their criteria for being the right person to employ. "

LOL! I had to interview replacements when I was leaving a large company in Bristol as its Chief Pilot, and they all went through the psycho test as part of the human remains nonsense - I wouldn't have picked any one of them, subsequently proved right.

To the OP - don't worry too much about degrees - many of the most influential movers and shakers in this world don't have one, which makes them more able to think out of the box. The only time I found anything like that actually useful was in dealing directy with the type of customer whose brother was a crew chief in Vietnam and therefore knows everything - in those type of countries (Canada, USA on the oil patch) a PhD really kicks butt. Otherwise, they are arguably useful for management positions, but reread the first sentence! Most HR departments put something like that in as a means of weeding people out.

Olympia463

11th Feb 2021, 11:28

This thread has moved away from the OP's request I think. However I agree that if your particular career does not actually need a degree then don't get one. However since I joined the rat race (in 1954) the goalposts have moved. Time was, before mine, you could actually spend your whole working life in one sort of job. My father did, and went from office boy to Chief Accountant on the railway. I have had seven different jobs in engineering from aircraft engines to laser guidance via heavy engineering, machine tools, photocopiers, and tank sights. What you should get from a degree is the capability to pick up new things quickly and know how to find out what you need to know. The parting words of the Dean of Engineering on day one at my university were "Gentlemen (we were all men) if there is one thing I want you to learn here on your way to a degree, it is how to learn quickly and how to use a library." Nowadays the last bit would be how to use Google I suppose.
It also puts your feet on the ladder a few rungs up at the beginning of your working life. The way airline flying is going right now I would be for studying something else (a science subject for choice) and join the UAS if they have one or a gliding club.Quite a few of the people I taught to fly on gliders went on to being airline pilots.

I have to agree with the poster who could see little value in a PhD. For other than academics this is true. I have met more thick PhD's than any other class of graduates.

Johnny F@rt Pants

11th Feb 2021, 14:45

Most pilots don’t have a degree I believe, but the fact is that they *could* get one

Rob

I don't have a degree, I did go to Uni to do a degree but got told not to bother going back after the end of the first year, and the degree was Mickey Mouse in comparison to the one you are doing I didn't even do A levels, they would have been way too hard, I got into uni on the back of a BTEC course. I also only managed 5 'O' Levels at school. Like you, I mistakenly thought that there was no way I could be a pilot, till somebody told me that you really don't need to be all that bright, and that was it, I gave up my job within 3 months of that info and went to get my CPL/ATPL. Did I find it hard, yes, very, especially the mathematical subjects which are usually the ones that people take as bankers to pass, yes, I failed loading and Perf E, but with determination I got there, and I firmly believe anyone can do providing they want it enough.

Just because your degree isn't going well doesn't matter one jot.

Genghis the Engineer

11th Feb 2021, 16:54

My god is this thread back again.

I've two degrees in aerospace engineering (BEng and PhD) and I've EU, US and UK CPL/IRs and a few thousand hours. I choose to earn my living mainly in boffinry and fly occasionally, rather than the other way around for reasons that suit me (and in 2021 that certainly makes for a more secure income!). I've also taught or examined aeronautical engineering at several university, and also occasionally teach flying. Anyhow, I think that makes me qualified to answer the question .

Firstly an aero eng degree tells you virtually nothing about your aptitudes to be a pilot - anybody who told you otherwise was doing you no favours whatsoever. Never trust that person's advice again.

Secondly however, it's a highly regarded and tough degree. Well done for getting this far, do your best - there is absolutely no point in quitting in your final year, after paying the fees and when nobody is hiring pilots. Do your damndest, and shoot at least for a 2:2 which will make you much more employable than a 3rd, but equally a 3rd is not something to be ashamed of. You can still become an Incorporated Engineer with that, and if you add a 1-year MSc you can become Chartered.

A degree is much more difficult in terms of analysis and understanding. A CPL or ATPL (not much difference in the theory really) is much more difficult in terms of memorisation and recall. So again whoever told you they are equivalent was also doing you no favours - it's nonsense. You may sail through ATPLs after this, or you may find you simply haven't the aptitude for them, your degree experience will help a bit, but not much, and tell you little about how well you'll do.

A great many jobs in aerospace engineering do not require the sort of heavy number crunching and analysis that you are having to pass exams in. The majority of people teaching you at university have never done any of those jobs, they are really employed as researchers who do a bit of teaching, so simply don't have a grasp of that. So...

- You may, or may not, be perfectly suited to a job in aerospace or aeronautical engineering
- You may, or may not, be perfectly suited to training as a professional pilot.

The way to find out whether you have any aptitude for flying as a profession is indeed to do a PPL. Make sure your school know that you're considering a professional flying career, and ensure they hold you to those standards in your training. By the time you have your PPL you'll know whether you have the aptitude and dedication to take that path - nothing you've done so far will tell you that, apart from the very impressive achievement of making it to the final year of a difficult degree course which you are finding very tough. That, actually, is something to be extremely proud of, and sensible future employers will absolutely get that too. There are many jobs that you can do with that degree, some in aeronautical engineering, some outside that nonetheless prize the skills you have developed in getting this far.

In summary
- Yes you can be a pilot. Probably.
- No don't give up on your degree. This far in, finish it, and do your best to get a 2:2.
- You've done pretty well so far, don't let anybody tell you otherwise.
- Aviation, and engineering, are big industries - there are a lot of jobs you can potentially do, many very exciting, from where you are now. Most of those aren't analysis jobs.

Jobs you could do. Pilot. Engineering management. Engineering and aviation sales. Business development. Quality. Planning. RAF/RN/Army Officer or NCO in any branch, not just GD or engineering. That's a tiny subset of the full list, and none of them are excluded to you. There are a lot more jobs in aviation than engineer and pilot.

Olympia463

12th Feb 2021, 09:16

Genghis is right. He and I both agree that a degree is not essential to being a pilot, but it is essential these days to get a job in a technical sphere. Finish your degree and start earning money. Fly for fun if you can. If the urge to try to get those jolly gold bands on your cuffs persists, then you can still do that, and if the business falls apart as it has done this last year, you can still make a decent living. If you do it that way round you won't join the moaners on here wishing they had.

Central Scrutinizer

12th Feb 2021, 12:08

What you advice is what I have done. Go to uni, study an engineering degree, get a job, earn money, fly for fun and then slowly get the liceces via the modular route.

However, this has its own drawbacks. At some point in life you must make a decision and choose what you want to do. If you're constantly trying to leave too many options open, this may lead to a lack of commitment. In my case, had I not been working full time I could have finished my training sooner, before Covid, and now wouldn't be stuck with useless UK licences because of Brexit. Sure, my case is rather anecdotal, but still comes to show that not committing yourself 100% to something may mean you won't get there.

So if someone who is 18 now, wants to be a pilot, asks me whether it makes sense to study a degree first. Honestly, I don't really know what I would say.

Genghis the Engineer

14th Feb 2021, 18:04

A major point here is that having a career backup is a good thing, but in many cases a degree is not that. Train as a lifeguard, or a chef, or a plumber - all of which will be quicker and cheaper than getting a degree, and likely to get you a job faster when you need one.

A 4 year engineering degree, at £9k.pa tuition, plus living expenses is one hell of an investment in yourself. There is, in my view, only one reason to do it - a passion for engineering and likely interest in taking that career path.

Also do a degree, any degree, then switch to pilot training - and you will find yourself 2 years later with your degree skills rusty and potentially in competition against people who have just graduated and are a lot sharper than you are now. As a backup plan, it is an absolutely lousy one. Also bear in mind that an MEng graduate is applying for trainee positions - it's another 4 years to get your CEng.

There is a bit of an exception - if you are dead-set on an aviation career, but are more relaxed about *what* aviation career, then the combo of an aero-eng degree and licences, may open a lot of doors to you. But let's not pretend that's a cheap or easy option - 4 years to get the degree plus 2 years to get a CPL, leaves you probably £130k in debt and still at the bottom of either career ladder.

I would say pick one and take it seriously - then consider doing the other in your spare time whilst working, either an engineering degree with the OU whilst flying or job hunting, or modular and PAYG whilst working as an engineer. But studying an aero-eng degree, to then go straight into pilot training - that strikes me as very poor planning indeed in the modern world.

Olympia463

14th Feb 2021, 19:39

Here I must agree again with Genghis. I differ about the 'rusty' comment though . A degree teaches you [b]how to learn - any degree will do. Learning a 'trade' as a back up should professional flying turn sour for any reason (health, passing tests, downturn, etc) is not as good as having the degree, even if it might be a quicker way into a job, when the ordure hits the ventilator. Having demonstrated your capability to learn fast by having a degree, will always be a better route to safety. In any case any degree is swiftly outdated, but the key thing that is not, is the learning skill. I reckon my first class degree in engineering was out of date in less than ten years from graduation, but by then I was well on my way up the management ladder.

Having a 'trade' as well as a degree worked wonderfully for me when I was made redundant by the collapse of the company I was in. Having been trained in my youth as a draughtsman I was back in the building I had just left the following week, as a contract draughtsman to get some jobs finished to help the administration team complete a contract and get some cash in for the creditors. I had been a Chief Designer in the outfit which went bust. Six weeks later I re-mustered in my proper rank in another firm. The taxman said it would not be worth his while to collect income tax for the six weeks as well!