An opportunity not to be missed!

[Mr Baxter]

An extract from a recent piece of paper that was slid out from under the door at the 'Bourke St Evil Lair'. Roped of queue's are being set up in the area... don't forget your clown costume.

Wide Body (A330) Opportunities – 6 months Extendable (Expendable?) as Operationally Required

Introduction

Due to commencement of SIN-AKL-SIN Wide Body Operations effective March 2011 and the need to cover some ‘short-term’ vacancies whilst training of the permanent first officers is completed, the following first officer opportunities are hereby advertised:

Ten (10) Wide Body First Officer vacancies (6 months extendable) – AKL base

Note 1:
A330 CCQ training is expected to commence across April 2011 & May 2011.

Note 2:
Successful applicants will be employed under local NZ terms and conditions for the duration of this Wide Body opportunity. At completion of this Wide Body Opportunity you will be trained back to Narrow Body flying.

Note 3:
To be eligible for Wide Body (A330) First Officer vacancies you must have a minimum of 500 hours flight time on Jetstar Group Narrow Body (A320) aircraft.

Note 4:
You may be required to enter into a training bond for this opportunity.

- My italics for added flare and visual effect.

[Fruet Mich]

I think it's time we start letting the general public know what's going on via social media websites. If the Arabs can overthrow a government dictatorsip then surely we can overthrow rich fat cat CEO's with no regard to passenger safety and every regard to their back pockets! It's time we stopped this absolute piss take. These aircraft can't fly themselves, much to Bruce buchanans confusion.

[TBM-Legend]

FM - Ans; Don't work there. Go back to driving a cab in the Western Burbs....

Free choice rules!

[Normasars]

Once again I will say this, and for the VERY LAST TIME.

DON'T CONFUSE INDUSTRIAL ISSUES WITH SAFETY. IT MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE A FOOL.

This is becoming the norm to just about every second thread on this forum of late.

[KRUSTY 34]

I'm confused.

With the NZ exchange rate, and the purported rate to fly the line in NZ, wouldn't that amount to a significant pay cut? :ooh:

[Anthill]

Hi Krusty, not sure what the pay rates are, but looks like an opportunity to get the A330 CCQ (type rating) and perhaps more money for a period.

Who pays for the move to AKL?

What are the per diems? A temporary basing should result in per diems when away from your usual base.

[KRUSTY 34]

This is Jetstar we're talking about Anthill.

Read the fine print boys and girls. :suspect:

[The Bunglerat]

Ditto what Norma said. What is happening here is disgusting for sure, but let's not confuse an industrial issue with a safety one. It's starting to wear thin.

[balance]

There is a crossover where industrial issues become safety issues. Colgan is a good example.

[aussie027]

Industrial and management, err sorry mis management issues do directly affect and cause safety issues. No confusion whatsoever.

They are 2 main areas that cause company systemic factors that directly contribute and often are at the start of the accident chain.:mad:
That has can be demonstrated in many past accidents.
Colgan for one. :uhoh::mad:

[Capt Toss Parker]

I was told yesterday that the Jet Star cadets who get farmed out to Jet Connect will be getting paid $23K Kiwi ...... is this for real?

[gobbledock]

I was told yesterday that the Jet Star cadets who get farmed out to Jet Connect will be getting paid $23K Kiwi ...... is this for real?
Almost. It is actually $23k ZWD !!!

[ratpoison]

At the risk of echoing a statement originally made some moons ago by the legendary Bin,
"what a co*k rag outfit" :ugh::eek:

[Led Zeppelin]

I was told yesterday that the Jet Star cadets who get farmed out to Jet Connect....................

How can Jetstar pilots be farmed out to Jet Connect who operate Boeings ??

[ziggie08]

The only takers for this sandwich will be A320 F/O's currently based in NZ. For them it is a payrise and 6 months experience on a new A/C - not to mention the end of 4 sector, early start days.
No A320 guys based in Aus will take it up as it amount to a paycut along with a relocation without any allowances from the company. If they want to fly the A330 the opportunity is already there - based in Aus.

[Fruet Mich]

Mate, I don't quite know where you are getting the info that there will be a "pay rise" for the A320 pilots? As far as I can ascertain the T&C's are the same as the current NZ T&C's on the A320 contract. Bloody laughable!

As for the guys saying that Salary and safety should not be placed in the same basket, I've never heard such a load of crap!! It has a direct relationship. If you pay peanuts, you get inexperience, experience will go to where they are remunerated at the correct rate for a professional pilot. If you pay peanuts, you will get inexperience full stop, hence the safety issue. This crowd will take what they can get, experience is not a factor, who ever fills the seat and pays the money for the type rating.

For those guys that will use that classic old excuse, I need to feed my family, take a contract overseas, you can't use that excuse with the amount of jobs out there. Don't continue to f&$k our industry.

[KRUSTY 34]

Crikey F.M. Not even a 5% increase to fly an aircraft that's significantly larger! That's the modern airline mangement's modus operendi isn't it? It seems they are now trying to sell the "opportunity" on the basis of the endorsement alone, even though the expected recipients already work for the company! :mad:

What ratpoison said. :ok:

[sumtingwong]

Krusty, even the "opportunity" to gain a 330 endorsement comes with a cost it would seem.


Note 4:
You may be required to enter into a training bond for this opportunity.

Australia's true CRO.

[Going Boeing]

Are Jetstar "mainline" training personnel carrying out the simulator training for both these temporary A330 F/O's and the permanent Singapore based pilots?

If they are, they need to have a quick rethink as they are contributing to their own professional demise. There is no doubt that the offshore bases are aimed at killing off JQ Oz T & C's.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

You reap what sow!.
If the guys in Jetstar had not been so gullible and believed that by undercutting QF mainline was going to guarantee job security and future aircraft you have all been sorely mistaken.
Once these bean-counters got a wiff of what a pathetic bunch of nadless softc*@Ks pilots unfortunately are,( that the pilots would take a job on less money, work harder, pay for their training, move anywhere and also pay for themselves their relocation costs) Did you think that they were just going to stop and say thanks? FFS!
You cannot be now surprised that the company are going to try this on again and again until eventually they only have a monkey and a banana sitting up front on a dollar a day. Meanwhile BB and AJ head off into the sunset hand in hand with their massive fat bonuses that came directly out of what was probably your wages.

This is what Australian aviation has now become, Enjoy!
or

STOP the ROT..............

[Fruet Mich]

My guess is that they will get bugger all interest from experienced guys/gals but shyte loads of interest from our new "cadet" force with 500hrs A320 experience, as is the required amount of hours, plus their 200hrs which will mean an FO flying a wide body with 700hrs TT!

Hilarious!!!!

[genex]

What is hilarious is those who already have (a) wide body slots and (b) industrial clout urging those with neither (a) nor (b) to give up (a) voluntarily so that those with (b) never have to use it.

Now that is funny. Sad too......

(Edited to focus on the thrust of the argument)

[The The]

Are Jetstar "mainline" training personnel carrying out the simulator training for both these temporary A330 F/O's and the permanent Singapore based pilots?

If they are, they need to have a quick rethink as they are contributing to their own professional demise. There is no doubt that the offshore bases are aimed at killing off JQ Oz T & C's.


Just like QF mainline pilots who did the sims and line training for the Jetconnect 737-800 conversions.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Genex,
Why is it Aipa propaganda to want respectable pay and conditions for the working Australian pilot?

I would have thought that it would have been the general consensus to be well remunerated and well trained throughout this profession.

You have shown me the light, shame on you Aipa for wanting a well paid profession, Shame!

[balance]

Now this is sad, and I commend this comment to you personally, Genex:

I did my wide body flying on quality aircraft with a quality airline with quality professionals who neither bleated nor demeaned their fellow pilots and who were conscious that pride does in fact go before a fall. If they made mistakes we put vast resources into learning from them and re-training. We didn't sneer.

Yet you bleat constantly about QF and AIPA. Yet you constantly demean QF / AIPA. Yet you constantly sneer at QF / AIPA. HYPOCRIT!

"This is hilarious.....imagine supposedly well-trained pilots taking off and approaching through known thunderstorms, nearly running out of fuel, destroying a perfectly innocent golf-course and a 747 all at once....this is the stuff of comics strips not professionalism"

There but for the grace of God go I, and YOU GENEX.

If pride goes before a fall, then Genex my friend, you are heading for a big one, because your post is hypocritical, arrogant, stupid and just plain wrong.

And it does nothing to add to the debate. Start your own "I hate QF thread", and stop tainting others with your rot.

[blow.n.gasket]

Genex,
The Golfcourse incident you keep dredging up to support your argument is farcical.
Read the ATSB report have we??
If you had, you would see that this accident was a direct result of Managements blindly driven cost cutting mantra instigated without sufficient or robust enough risk assessment!

The very same rot that every thinking pilot in the Qantas Group, Jetstar pilots included is trying to stop.

So the Qantas 1 incident in BKK rather than being the exception you keep upholding it to be is just another fine example of Managements, mismanagement!:eek:

[Jay Arr]

Genex, I really shouldn't bite, but why not?

Aside from your apparent desire to see Australian T&C's reduced, you also have proved to me that you simply don't know the facts of certain QF incidents or are selective with what you write . A specific case in point: you refer to QF pilots taking off through known thunderstorms. Do you have a specific incident in mind? Because if you are referring to the 767 out of Cooly in 2003 (yes, goes way back, but then again you are reaching back to 1999 and QF1 at BKK) then I know both pilots involved, I know what the BoM knew, what the SMC knew but what the pilots were NOT told. Oh, and the ATSB knows all the facts also (refer to the final report). I tell you, if this is what you are basing your slander on then you need to back off. If not that incident, then please elaborate.

[Normasars]

What a dysfunctional, farked up bunch of snivelling, self-centred, "I'm alright Jack" pack of arseholes you blokes are.

PILOT UNITY. THE BROTHERHOOD OF PILOTS.

WHAT A DISGRACE.

I'm embarrassed to be a pilot.

I thought we were better than this. Where's the respect, courtesy and compassion for our fellow colleagues?

I am saying farewell to one of the best pilots and friends I have ever had the privilege of meeting on Monday. You blokes need to take a reality check and realise what is actually important in life.

Rant over!!!!!!!

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Normasars,

You are right to question pilot unity, outside of a flightdeck there really has never been such a thing, history confirms that.

And that is the problem.

Until there is unity between ALL groups and individuals within the Australian piloting community the erosion of conditions will continue. People like genex have to realise that organisations like Aipa are not the enemy. Fat#ss, bloodsucking executives that would sell there daughter to a pimp for a buck are the ones we need to unite and fight against.
Qf pilots are trying to make a stand, but they can't do it on there own, its time for a call to arms to all pilots to stand up for this profession or it will be gone before we know it.

[balance]

Hear, hear, Stalin.

Sorry to hear about your mate, Norma. It does serve as a reality check.

And I notice that Genex has seriously edited his last post. For those coming into the thread now, the last few rather indignant posts were a result of some, lets just say, less than helpful remarks by Genex. A selection of his quotes were included in my last post...

[Jay Arr]

Yes, Balance.

There really should be a feature on PPrune (like on certain other aviation BB's) whereby you can edit a post for up to an hour or so maximum. Thereafter you have "locked it in, Eddy!"

It is the measure of character (or, more accurately, a lack thereof) to say a bunch of scurrilous things, leave it out there for a few hours and then delete it, pretending to have never said it.

[OneDotLow]

Just ignore Genex. He is a sh*tstirrer from way back.

He holds a lot of anger inside and just goes to show that Tall Poppy Syndrome is alive and well in his black little heart.

From the mind of Genex :

I will blame all others for my own failings. I am not responsible for my own destiny. I will not seek to improve my own lot. Instead, I will bring those around me own to mine.

[genex]

Actually I hold no anger inside. As Marilyn Monroe once said...."Those who know me better, know better".

I wish all pilots were united, in one responsible, strong, well-funded and respected union, with pilot councils for each group, and that all pilots were paid according to a pleasant negotiated blend of the financial capabilities of their outfit and their qualifications and experience. I wish that management would see that the overall cost of doing something properly usually is less than doing it poorly. I wish that blind ideology had no place in boardrooms or executive suites and that the true cost of executing that ideology could be identified and those reponsible held accountable. I wish that years ago or even recently, Qantas had ordered about 30 777s and had a cost structure in place that enabled profitable growth at all ends of the market. I wish that the pay differential between the most junior cabin crew and the CEO was no more than a factor of about 15 and that bonuses were paid in post-dated shares only and then only on the basis of "real" long term performance.I wish that outsourcing was regarded as a necessary evil to be used sparingly rather than a shrine to be worshipped. I wish that the executive committee of major airlines had at least a third of their membership from people who actually had ramp, galley, hangar or cockpit dirt under their fingernails. I wish that all cadets were highly motivated, paid an allowance and received first class training, not just the minimum as part of a cost cutting scheme. I wish that pilots stuck in group subsidiaries who are good enough to wear the same uniform as mainline brethren simply got the chance to show in the simulator and line training whether they could meet the standard on bigger types, not be stuck by some rigid mix of "divide and conquer" and an implied belief that only certain people are "good enough" to fly big jets. I wish that it could be understood that asking a young pilot to refuse to fly a 330 in one part of the group while the same pilot is denied the chance to fly the 330 by recruitment policies in another part of the group is nonsensical. I wish the public could be made to see that $39 airfares are not sustainable and that when they are offered, as seat fillers, then there really will be "no frills". I wish that all pilots could see that a lot has changed since deregulation was announced in 1987 and that some realities such as LCCs are simply evolutionary and capable of being implemented properly and dynamically, not necessarily evil per se.

I am in the latter chapters of a happy and challenging career, with few regrets and certainly none I blame others for. I bear no grudge even for the scores and scores and scores of pilots who crossed picket lines in '89 and did the industry such damage. I prefer to be surrounded by those who stood firm that's all. I have not had the chance to check inside but hope and pray that my heart is neither little nor black.

To those who prefer to cling to the past, and shrink from the use of unity and strength by those in a position to do so....I do not apologize for asking you to do more.

I am neither a victim, nor bitter. My track record of doing my best for the industry in Australia and abroad is at least average and I hope better.

If you do care to understand how someone can be constructively critical yet stand tall I call to your attention William Henley who well described my outlook on life......

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

And on that note Genex leaves Prune. Build your new world with strength, vision, unity and hope....or have others do it for you on their terms. Your choice. Good luck.

[ratpoison]

Now that was bloody well said.:D

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Pilots of Australian Aviation today need one united pilot group (association, union etc), similar to how BALPA is structured in the UK. A overall committee that has reps from all airlines and then individual committees for day to day business of each individual airline.

Resources can be shared, it will be healthy financially and no more division.

Stop the rot.

[balance]

Credit where it is due. An eloquent post, Genex, and I enjoyed reading it.

My wish is that your former posts were of the quality of your final one. Unfortunately, as with some of your wishes, it just won't happen.

Pity. Good luck to you.

[noip]

Regretably genex, you had to spoil it all and make one more untrue accusation towards AIPA, dressed up as fact.

sigh

[Tankengine]

GENEX is right, and that union is AIPA!:ok:
Re his remark about 89, he is referring to a few dozen at most out of over 2500 mainline members!:rolleyes:

[Keg]

Genex, I like your big paragraph. You'll get no arguments from the overwhelming majority of Qantas pilots.

I did a double take at your comments that AIPA members crossed picket lines during '89- something that didn't occur. However, the nitty gritty of your comments are correct. AIPA does now have a number of members who 'returned' during '89 prior to AFAP approving a return. I think it's a bit disingenuous to claim that AIPA is flawed based on the actions of what amount to about 200 QF pilots- not all of whom are AIPA members- who weren't actually AIPA members at the time they returned. Whilst I was only just out of high school when that occurred and have personal opinions on the matter, they're irrelevant these days and what matters is working on the issues in front of us. Incidentally, there are about current 700 QF mainline AIPA members who were in long haul at the time of '89. There are 1300-1400 who have joined since that time.

[C441]

Genex, nicely stated.

...however
I bear no grudge even for the scores and scores and scores of current AIPA members who crossed picket lines in '89 and did the industry such damage.

Those to whom Genex refers currently represent at most about 4% of the AIPA membership. Perhaps you'd be surprised to learn that many did not and subsequently have not joined AIPA, probably for the same reason that they returned to their previous employers after that dispute.

Best wishes Genex. Despite the fact that you often annoyed me with your posts, you never failed to encourage some discussion.:)

[JohnMcGhie]

DON'T CONFUSE INDUSTRIAL ISSUES WITH SAFETY. IT MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE A FOOL.

As a former Journo, I do have some experience in these matters. A golden opportunity was missed in the Senate Enquiry. At the first mention of wages, the committee, and the public, stopped reading.

"Minimum rest breaks" is a safety issue. "Pilots whose wages are so low they can't afford to live properly" is an industrial issue. Of course it may lead to a safety issue, but that's a level of indirect relationship that simply does not survive in the public's mind.

The politicians get ruthless coaching in "Staying on message". The public thinks all pilots are heroes and they would love to support you: but you guys must learn to stay on message! Study Tony Abbot and Julia Gillard. You don't have to vote for them, but learn the technique :-)

If you have a safety issue, don't talk about wages or conditions. That's what the wharfies did, and that did not end well.

Cheers

[KRUSTY 34]

I dunno John, you're probably right and maybe I'm not as cynical as I thought. One thing's for certain though, the families of the victims of the Colgan crash (many well heeled) were absolutely flabagasted when made aware of the T&C's of the pilots who were entrusted with their loved ones lives on that dark snowy night.

It may not be on message, or fashionable to mention pilots being exploited, but it'll sure as hell feature right in the public's face if we see a similar accident here! :sad:

[JohnMcGhie]

I dunno John, you're probably right and maybe I'm not as cynical as I thought. One thing's for certain though, the families of the victims of the Colgan crash (many well heeled) were absolutely flabagasted when made aware of the T&C's of the pilots who were entrusted with their loved ones lives on that dark snowy night.

Well, as a former journo, few would be more cynical than I.

Let me clarify: I am not suggesting not talking about Industrial Issues: I am simply suggesting that you will achieve your desired results much more reliably if you do not join them with other issues.

Among the many reasons for the Colgan crash it is reported that these pilots were too tired to fly. That's a safety issue.

Obviously, the did not have the power to call in and say "Sorry, I haven't had enough sleep, I am not fit to fly." That's a safety issue.

And their boss knew, or should have known, that they were under-trained. That's a safety issue.

There are ALSO Industrial issues. I am sure Colgan has some. I am sure every airline has some.

Industrial issues deserve and require plenty of media space. As much as you can get :O That's the job of your union. When I was in a union, I was very vigorous in demanding that it represented my interests with any resources at its disposal.

My point is simply that when you mix "Safety Issues" and "Industrial Issues" in the same story, you lose your public, you lose your regulators, and you lose your battle.

Of course you should raise Industrial Issues. That's what unions are for. And of course you should raise safety issues: you are the only ones who can.

But never, ever, risk presenting an Industrial Issue as, or intermingled with, a safety issue. Because the moment you do that, you lose your credibility. Your "brand image", of you like. And that's your only weapon, so try NOT to misplace it!

[Long John Silver]

Saftey Issues (not industrial)

JQ must be one of the only airlines in the world where captains are asked to consitantly fly 1000hrs a year, and to supervise inexperienced cadet FO's while doing four sector days into CTAF's with 30m wide runways.

Something is going to give...

[KRUSTY 34]

I do see where you're coming from John.

It'll be interesting however if (God forbid) one goes in, and the Families exclaim, "They were paid what!" But as always the self interested Psychopaths running the show will continue to hide behind a self promoted air of respectability in their quest to save the travelling public from those greedy pilots.

[Capt_SNAFU]

What 30m Rwys do JQ operate into?

[Going Boeing]

Krusty, I'm sure that they'd use the term "World's best practice" in their defence. :ugh:

[Going Nowhere]

Ballina, Sunshine Coast

[TIMA9X]

The politicians get ruthless coaching in "Staying on message". The public thinks all pilots are heroes and they would love to support you: but you guys must learn to stay on message!I agree, after the recent events at QF the pilots have come over as the very people who saved the airlines brand damage, AJ got a free ride, it could have been worse.

I believe this video pretty much sums up the spin at Qantas, when it suits the management the pilots are fantastic, the hypocrisy of it all, it makes no sense to stretch the truth as AJ did on national TV.

If the pilots stay on a simple message the public/punters will see through it all, a bit like the Sol Trujillo days at Telstra, take the money and run. This style of airline management is beginning to tire, and I feel AJ shot himself in the foot with his answers to the last two questions, he answered poorly. :suspect:

f63e_OwE_4g

[TIMA9X]

Krusty, I'm sure that they'd use the term "World's best practice" in their defence.Is this the ultimate AJ cost efficient pilot training scheme?
Video - Chocks away! Learn to fly a 737 in 30 mins - The Sydney Morning Herald (http://media.smh.com.au/lifestyle/essentials/chocks-away-learn-to-fly-a-737-in-30-mins-2213092.html?from=newsbox)

Efficient | Define Efficient at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/efficient+)

satisfactory and economical to use: Our new air conditioner is more efficient than our old one.
or
utilizing a particular commodity or product with maximum efficiency (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/efficiency) (usually used in combination): a fuel-efficient engine.
other words, bonus driven value for money training..... :E
Chocks away! Learn to fly a 737 in 30 mins (04:04)

With the happening of late from the Q group management, makes you begin to wonder.....

[fl610]

Things have certainly become more efficient, I distinctly remember bob saying that it took 7 hours to learn to fly.

[Slasher]

The public thinks all pilots are heroes and they would love to support you

Gimme a break - that would have to be the silliest statement I've ever read on DG. No they don't!

a) The Oz public doesn't give a **** about pilots. It has its own problems to deal with, like trying to keep its financial head above water.

b) The "cutting down of tall poppies" cultural syndrome is alive and well. The hope was Gen Y would bury this defect but that hasn't happened. At the end of the day pilots are still perceived as overpaid glorified bus drivers as it ever was, despite the reality of the opposite. Forget those unreliable idiotic tabloid polls and get out more - mix with the Unwashed and get the true picture.

There are other reasons but why waste time stating the obvious?

If Mr McGhie really is 60yo then he of all people should be familiar with Australian industrial history and public manipulation.

[Fruet Mich]

I had a yarn to a jetstar Capt in MEL finishing his Singapore return the other day, he was working with another capt. When I asked if he was on a check, he replied jetstar were short of FO's primarily because no one is being upgraded to FO on the Aus EBA. This is why they asking for FO's based in NZ on 65k so they can avoid the Aus EBA just like they are currently doing with every new recruit on the 320. What are you guys at Jetstar doing about this? How the hell are you letting these guys break the law and have all new hires be put on the NZ contract to be "domiciled" in Australia? Surely you have a big case if not one person has been hired on the Aussie EBA for I don't know how long!!?? Doesn't this make a mokery of a collective agreement signed in good faith by the company and it's employees? Pitch in and hire an employment lawyer for Christ sake!

The 330 capt also mentioned that Jetstar were about to get a rude awakening with captains leaving to work for air china based in SYD. But I guess Jetstar will just hire new captains on a NZ 320 capt salary to replace them.

Grow some nuts boys and girls in Jetstar. It seems the only nuts are in management and they're having a right ol time.

[John Citizen]

FO's based in NZ on 65k

65k AUD or NZD ?

[Popgun]

Pitch in and hire an employment lawyer for Christ sake!

I would have hoped that avenue was being pursued by AIPA given that two-thirds of the pilot body are now represented.

Where is AIPA on this?

[CaptCloudbuster]

Where is AIPA on this?

AIPA is tackling this issue via the Jetconnect FWA case.

If you were a member of AIPA you would be aware of this.