Asian and African job market

[aaron wilmott]

Im recently qualified on the ATR 42/72, a type popular in Asia and Africa.
I have sent CV's to all operators in these areas with little response although recruitment seems to be taking place.
How do you get into these markets when you are living in Europe, Will i finally get contacted or is it the case you have to turn up there and put yourself about.

[Wesker]

It's always the same problem if you don't have experience and get hired through an agency...

You have no work permit
You don't speak the language
You have no license validation or local license
The locals try to protect their jobs
The locals will fly for a much lower salary then you

etc...

[aaron wilmott]

that is true and airlines in these regions probably do prefer to hire through agencies. I have noticed that the experience required has fallen over recent months, does this mean that they arent filling the jobs with local
applicants and will turn their attentions to elsewhere?

[flyhighspeed300]

In aviation its seems that getting a job; you need either need luck or its about who you know.

The further away from where you live the harder it is to get a job less you have had more than 5 years experience.

[aaron wilmott]

Unfortunately im based in the UK and i chose the ATR because it was popular in the asian and african markets. Knowing the right people is 50% of the battle and maybe the only way that newbies like me can get a foot in. So maybe sending CV's out and hoping on replies is a bit optimistic.

[Ronand]

@aaron
Hi did you do a self funded ATR rating?
From what I've seen the main thing is luck...

[aaron wilmott]

yes it was a self sponsored rating, although i got a good deal on it. People will argue it isnt a good deal or else i wouldnt be posting.
I have to say that i have only been searching for an ATR position for a month now. I have held the FATPL for two years now so thought that now is the time to try make things happen.

[Sciolistes]

The general requirement is to have a minimum number of hours on type to convert your license. Usually, this is a minimum of 500 hours on type and 1,500hrs total time, but some airlines seem to be permitted to hire with as little as 300 hours on type.

Indeed, for the ATR, at least one operator requires specific experience on the 72, 42 experience doesn't count!

Non type rated entrants usually have to go through the airlines specific cadet entry program, be trained on certified simulators with state licensed instructors and examiners. If you have no hours on type, then this is an option. If you already have a rating with no hours then it is conceivable that you maybe credited some reduction on the full program at somebodies discretion.

[aaron wilmott]

Does that mean that the airlines can hire people with no time on type or is it an issue that you need the time on type to get the work visa.I am aware that some countries are not allowed to hire expat FO's because of goverment rules. I have also seen companies who only advertise that you require the type rating to apply.

[Sciolistes]

The visa situation depends on the current situation. Malaysia and Indonesia, for example have banned FO expats in the past but are now (or were recently) hiring again.

I have also seen companies who only advertise that you require the type rating to apply.
Who and where?

[aaron wilmott]

Mainly the African companies didnt specify the hour requirements.
Alot of companies say "must be type rated "but i suppose this doesnt mean they are going to take somebody with no time on type.
I was aware that Malaysia and Indonesia were restricted on local FO's. Are you aware if they are allowing expat FO's again.

[captainsuperstorm]

no FO in malaysia and indonesia.

have you seen the number of unemployed pilots in Malaysia? thousand!!!:{

[Sciolistes]

Both Garuda and Malaysia Airlines were recruiting in the last few months. FOs and Capts, but with lots of experience. Lionair had been recruiting PTFs through CAE for a while.

Just to prove the point:
B737EFIS/NG First Officers - 1401105967 - Flight Jobs (http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/job/b737efisng-first-officers-malaysia-1401105967.htm)

A quick search for Asian ATR operators doesn't seem to bode well. Vietnam airlines have been looking for ATR crew on and off for a long time, but they still have not reduced their requirements. Firefly stipulate that you must me Malaysian.

Here's a list:
Air Carrier Info - PILOT CAREER CENTRE (http://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Search-Air-Carrier-By-Aircraft-Type-And-By-Region/48/6/ATR42-ATR72+Regional+Turboprops/Asia)

One missing is this lot:
Airbagan Cockpit Crew / Myanmar Airline / Your Air Line in Myanmar / Asia Airline (http://www.airbagan.com/cockpit-crew.htm)

Another:
REF 1042: ATR72 First Officers - 1401109357 - Flight Jobs (http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/job/ref-1042-atr72-first-officers-indonesia-1401109357.htm).

This is the most accessible I could see if you have the total time.
Pilot Job - Overland Airways - PILOT CAREER CENTRE (http://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot-Job-Posting-Pilot-Opening-Pilot-Job/3961/Africa/First+Officers/ATR42+Turboprop/Overland+Airways)

[aaron wilmott]

Yes, i have come across these jobs aswell before and submitted applications to the companies even though i fall short on the time on type.
Right place, right time is the hope.
One of the reasons that i started this thread was because i feel that sending CV's out will probably come to nothing. I wondered how some people may of got work in these markets in the past with little Total time.

[Luke SkyToddler]

I wondered how some people may of got work in these markets in the past with little Total time.

Went out to whatever poxy third world African country they were targeting, hung around the towns where the jobs are, swept hangar floors, bought beers for chief pilots, generally kissed ass and lo and behold a few weeks later they were in paid employment.

Buying TR's is speculative at best even in the Euro 737/A320 market - but if your plan is honestly to get into an ATR in Africa / Asia and you've just bought a UK type rating for a UK licence with no time on type, then you have done nothing but utterly squander your money.

Every respectable turboprop operator in Asia / Africa that operates half decent modern gear like ATRs, already has a line a mile long of experienced and hard working GA pilots, locals and expats, already working for the smaller operators in country, making the good networking connections and they are just about invariably first in line for any jobs that come up.

Anyway, now that you've spent the money, you need to act fast before you get too uncurrent. If your game plan only consists of sitting on your ass in Europe sending CV's to third world operators, and complaining on pprune about lack of response to your CV's, then you are naive beyond all possible comprehension. Get on a plane and get out there to the country you want to fly in and start talking to people, and do it quickly.

[Flying Mechanic]

true words there Luke,
my advice is go knock on doors! I did it twice in my career, both invloved going to far flung places and I got a job. If i was you try Cebupac in Philpines, there are now hiring foreign F/O's with 500 TT as minimum and thats for ATR/Airbus jobs.There offfice is easy to find at Manila airport.

[aaron wilmott]

First of all, im not complaining about not recieving replies to my CV's.I
mentioned that i wasnt expecting replies. The whole point of the thread was to see how people were getting work, which you did mention thankyou guys.
And without turning this thread into a debate about SSTR it was not the intention to end up in this position. Hence me not wanting to sit on my Arse in Europe and doing something about it.

[Flying Mechanic]

heres the info.
COMPANY: Cebu Pacific Air DATE: Feb 07, 2011
POSITION: Pilots - A319 / A320 / ATR 72-500 (Pasay City)
DESCRIPTION: Responsibilities

* Safe handling of aircraft controls by assisting the Captain in all phases of flight.



Requirements

* ICAO recognized ATPL (acceptable to Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines)
* At least 500 hours of flying time
* Minimum of 500 hours on civil registered transport aircraft certificated for multi-crew operations
* College degree holder
* Basic computer literacy

[taff_lightning]

I've got a few mates that fly/have flown ATRs all over african on contract. I have to say most of these guy but not all went in with about c1500 hrs TT and c500 hrs twin. The one thing the ALL did was put in the leg work. Maybe it's because Africa is a bit old fashend but you've got no chance unless you see them face to face. I don't think any of them went in with TRs but I can't be sure of that.

Go for it:cool:

[aaron wilmott]

Ive decided that thats what im going to do. I am going to look to see were my best chance is going to be {based on people im currently speaking too} and spend some of my last money on a plane ticket to try my luck. Dont try dont get.!

[portsharbourflyer]

Aaron, I will get flamed for this, but Eaglejet do now have an ATR72 scheme, not a cheap option but could well be worth considering if all else fails.
Well although you may not have the cash at this moment; now you have paid for the rating it may be time to consider the spending more on the line hours to make the investment work. Misfortunately the 500 hours on type requirement is what companies like Eaglejet have capitalised on.


Would I be right to assume it was Skyblue you did the rating with?

Between 2005 and 2008 the ATR rating was a sure fire bet for gaining employment, I must have met about 10 or 11 people who got jobs on the ATRs during that time after self sponsoring the rating.

However there was Air Wales and Atlantic Express operating the ATR back then which are no more.

Farnair may also be worth applying to if you haven't already.

[aaron wilmott]

Yeh i am aware of the eagle jet scheme, i thought it best not to bring it up on this site, it aint a popoular topic.
Part of the reason i went ahead with the rating was because my prefered job market was Asia and Africa. Hence the thread.
The TR was a risk and im still waiting to see if it will bare fruit. Fingers crossed. The TRTO is doing its best to help me out aswell,
Im just trying to speed the process up and do something proactive.

[captainsuperstorm]

aron, you should keep your last money to keep you license updated.
you can not do anything, market is still slow, may be better in 6 months.
good luck anyway!

eaglejet? nobody so far has posted anything good about them.eaglejet pilots still have to look for a job when they are kicked out of their stupid scheme and with no money, what you do? use your brain a little!

.

[ZFT]

Have you tried Tanzania?

[aaron wilmott]

I have gone down the usual routes with most/all operators of the Aircraft.
What i need is an indication from one of them that it may not be a wasted journey to go out there and see them.

And as far as saving the money to keep licenses current, the point is that i have just done everything to keep it current and am trying to do something before i need to do it again.

[VarigMD11]

Hi Aaron

Here's my advice:

Go to Dar es Salaam and go see the chief pilot of Precision Air. They operate 42's and have 72's on order. From what I hear you don't need time on type just the TR. Tickets to Dar are relatively cheap. If Precision fails you can always get a job bomming around in a C206 or Van, just to pay the bills!

Good luck!

[aaron wilmott]

Thanks VarigMD11

That sounds like an idea!
Is it really that much easier to get a job "bombing around in a 206 or Caravan", This really isnt something i would say no too. Infact i would love the oportunity to do something like that.

[darkroomsource]

you will not get an indication from most, if not all, companies in Africa that there is any possibility of hiring.

If you don't show up at the door and hand your CV/resume in, they won't pay any attention to you, no matter how many hours you have, or where you are from.

I am in Namibia right now, and several companies have "needs" but according to every one of them they are not hiring, and will not be hiring until next season, even though they have planes sitting on the ground. Right now, they have suffered several years of bad times, and this year was the worst, then governments have been making it impossible for them to get work visas (several people have been sent home because of it)

Even in good times, though, they do not respond to phone calls or emails, or even the written letter, only to people who knock on the door.