ATP Requirement: Opportunity or Chore

[OBX Lifeguard]

When we recently hired a new pilot for our system he was tasked with achieving a ATP certification within one year as a condition of continued employment. He is allowed to use our aircraft for training and two of our pilots as instructors. I have been mildly surprised that he views this as a somewhat disagreeable chore. Years ago I negotiated the opportunity to use one of the company helicopters to do my ATP flight test in lieu of a raise.

I'm curious of y'alls opinion. Would you consider this an opportunity...or a chore?

[OBX Lifeguard]

No, no, we are picking up all the monetary expenses associated with the upgrade....

[eivissa]

Sounds like a great deal to me!

I recently have been offered a companies helicopter at the bare running costs to do my FI on it and that already felt like a generous thing. In your case, the pilot gets a higher qualification paid by the company and keeps his job. What more is there to ask for?

[Epiphany]

Makes me wonder what kind of employer would have hired someone with so little motivation in the first place.

[Unhinged]

If the story is as you've written, I'd have already shown him the door for lack of professional attitude. Seriously.

If that's how he reacts when he's being handed a significant freebie from the company, what's he going to be like when things aren't going his way ?

[OBX Lifeguard]

Well he is probationary for a year. On everything else except the ATP.. he has been enthusiastic. I do know some pilots have the attitude of what is the point of an ATP certificate in helicopters...but I personally have always wanted everything that would set me to the head of the class so to speak. Don't get me wrong...he hasn't refused...and maybe he is just making sure I'll pay him mileage and OT for the tests (which I would anyway)...

Which brings me to another issue...the response to our job opening was...pitiful. One applicant told us right up front the only thing he was willing to do was fly...no other assignments. I mean the job description says "pilot related duties only", but to be told that by an applicant? Another had not flown anything in 7 years and another nothing in 4 years...no BFR, nothing.

This was for a job that pays well above industry standards, has a pension plan, and host of other benefits to the tune of over $30,000 a year outlay, and where the PIC is the PIC in more than word only. And nice little things like not having to fuel the ship....:)

[hihover]

OBX, this is a very definite opportunity you are giving this employee. It is also, however, quite a chore that puts him in the spotlight and will force him to either rise to the occasion of fall flat on his face. This may be causing him concern, but it changes nothing as I see it. A deal is a deal, and it sounds to me that he has a great deal.

I would already be looking for his replacement.

Tam

[OBX Lifeguard]

"either rise to the occasion of fall flat on his face..."

You may have hit the nail on the headthere hihover. I never even considered he might fear not passing the checkride.

[Rotorgoat8]

Just curious but why did you place the ATP requirement as a condition? Lower insurance, customer requirement, larger aircraft coming on line---

[Runway101]

Give the job to me and I'll work almost for free ;)

[Unhinged]

I never even considered he might fear not passing the checkride.

Wouldn't he have plenty of other checkrides to pass in the normal course of his employment anyway ? They just go with the territory if you want a career as a pilot. I have at least 5 check rides scheduled (and probably several more in reality) between here and the end of the year.

I'd hate to be in the same cockpit as this pilot on a dark and stormy night when it really does get tough !

[OBX Lifeguard]

Just curious but why did you place the ATP requirement as a condition?great answer...
I'd hate to be in the same cockpit as this pilot on a dark and stormy night when it really does get tough ! Operating in a coastal environment there have been several times I've been caught out in a "dark and stormy night" and I believe having that ATP in my pocket gives me that little bit of extra confidence.

He is a little weak on instrument skills right now (pretty normal for most pilots coming from many vendor HEMS systems frankly) and the process of getting the ATP will sharpen him up.

While I try assiduously to avoid it...when I go inadvertent IMC it is a very low level emergency to me. And I have been with a few pilots in that situation that went apoplectic when they lost visual...


And all of my people, even my mechanic, are ATPs. My rationale is I pay my people well above average, I expect them to perform above average...

I turned this thread the wrong direction I'm afraid. I really meant to sort of poll what y'all thought of the "offer" to get an ATP certification. I am sure as the rest of us work on his instrument flying skills he will become more enthusiastic...

[GoodGrief]

A CPL only or even a CPL/IR doesn't get you far these days, it seems, so I am studying for the ATP on my own time.

Why? First, it is a "want have". I know I can do it, and I eventually want to fly some bigger iron as PIC and not as a CO.

The ATP course is booked, I pay. Airline, hotel, rental car, food and accom, the full course, the examiner, the whole shebang.

Anybody who gets it for free should consider himself lucky.
Someone needs to pay for it and it is not a bank.

[Rotorgoat8]

Certainly no one is going to argue with your philosophy of improving skills and demanding professionalism. Does this ATP program result in a IFR or (VFR only) rating? We had a few guys get the ATP (VFR) and I couldn't really see what the advantage to that was except possibly for status.

Do you file IFR and fly IFR during your operations? If not the proficiency gained during the training will wane as time passes.

[OBX Lifeguard]

ATP IFR.

Your point about proficiency waning is right on. I read a study where there was little correlation between being instrument rated and not being instrument rated in the performance of an Inadvertent IMC excursion exercise if skills were allowed to diminish.

On the other hand there was positive correlation between 1. Having an ATP rating 2. Maintaining Instrument Skills and 3. Passing an Instrument checkride and good inadvertent IMC skills.

Almost all of our mission flights are conducted under VFR. We occasionally evacuate for hurricanes and conduct admin flights IFR (with 2 pilots). In addition, to maintain currency we do some actual instrument flying usually under "soft core" conditions for training and two of us regularly fly airplanes IFR. All pilots take an IPC each year and are required to maintain instrument currency the rest of the time. Our simulated instrument flight is as realistic as I can make it, usually executed at night and over either the Pamlico Sound or Atlanic Ocean so "peeking" is of no assistance in that black over black environment.

It costs a bit in blade hours and dollars to accomplish this extra training but I view inadvertent IMC followed by CFIT as enemy number 1 and I believe it is very worth our while. My intention is the new pilot in achieving his ATP will put a fine edge on his skills...and subsequent training and flight checks will keep it there.

My own thought about conducting air ambulance flights at night in a coastal environment is that regardless of minimums, weather information systems, etc....inadvertent IMC is a when not an if...and the single best defense is instrument competency.

Sorry I was so long winded.

[Unhinged]

I really meant to sort of poll what y'all thought of the "offer" to get an ATP certification.

A great offer, as others here have said - Definitely an opportunity to be valued. It's good to know that there are employers who will go this far for their staff. Well done :D

[Rotorgoat8]

It sounds to me like you're right on target. Anyone should feel fortunate to get hired by your operation. Good attitude and work ethic is the key-- the rest will fall into place.

[Staticdroop]

I would consider the offer of being able to upgrade my licence and get additional training to increase my personal skills as a god-send, especially in todays employment market where training may be minimal.
Have you sat the guy down and asked why he appears averse to this additional training requirement? Might explain his thoughts as to why this is a chore to him.

[OBX Lifeguard]

Have you sat the guy down and asked why he appears averse to this additional training requirement? Might explain his thoughts as to why this is a chore to him.Not directly but I have probed in the area. I think his resistance is two fold.

One is he considers NVGs to be the silver bullet to inadvertent IMC...while I do not. I see them as a useful tool but I remember well a training incident in the Army. We were conducting low level ops and by the time with the goggles we realized we had decreasing visibility we were in the sh*t. I was grateful I was a sharp instrument pilot for the recovery.

Second is a combination of decay of his instrument skills ( the amount of instrument training in most Air Ambulance operations is, in my view, inadequate) and coming from glass cockpit to analog. He has been mostly flying EC-135s and EC-145s the last couple of years and we still operate a BK. I found it very easy to acclimate to glass...but not the other way around.

The good thing is both my other pilot and my mechanic are excellent instrument pilots as well as ATPs and I expect they will have a positive influence...

[Staticdroop]

NVG are certainly not the silver bullet for inadvertent IMC, like you I had experience with the mil, they can make matters a lot worse in some cases.
Perhaps some remedial IF training to regain lost skills and add confidence and if that does not work then you might need to rethink his employment as he may not be what you require for your operation.
Good Luck.