Letter To Minister of Civil Aviation From Air India Pilots

[skytrotter]

And the government is celebrating 100 years of civil aviation in India. What abyssmal depths have a few bureaucrats ,politicians and a self serving management brought Air India down to !

Here's a reality check on an airline that was created by pilots and now blatantly mistreats its frontline employees.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

Without Prejudice
Ref No: IPG/
Date: 14 Feb 2011

To,
1. Shri. Vayalar Ravi,
Hon’ble Union Minister of Civil Aviation,
Ministry of Civil Aviation,
New Delhi

2. Shri. Praful Patel,
Hon’ble Union Minister for Heavy Industries and Public Enterprises,
Ministry for Heavy Industries and Public Enterprises,
New Delhi

3. Shri. Mallikarjun Kharge,
Hon’ble Union Minister for Employment and Labour,
Ministry for Employment and Labour,
New Delhi

Subject: Culture of Lawlessness ,Oppression and Mistreatment of Pilots in erstwhile Air India

Sir,

Over the last few months the management of Air India has adopted a hostile and extremely partisan approach towards the pilots of erstwhile Air India, viz. members of the IPG. The management has repeatedly discriminated against, mistreated and even endangered the lives of pilots of erstwhile Air India.

The following are instances of the above:

1.Fraudulent Amendment of Air Safety Regulations Resulting In Grave Danger To The Lives of Pilots and Passengers:
Rules and regulations meant to reduce pilot fatigue and the probability of human error related air accidents – known as FDTL regulations- are routinely flouted by Air India. The company often claims that it has verbal waivers of these critically important rules from the Government and declines to provide proof when pilots demand the same. Pilots are then forced to operate flights under coercion and fear. On one recent occasion, media reports proved that Air India officials had fraudulently amended a part of these rules in an attempt to force exhausted pilots to fly. Such criminal malpractices regularly continue in Air India.

2.Discrimination in payment of Wages:

The company, whilst routinely deferring the payment of monthly dues to Indian employees, citing a liquidity crunch- pays all foreigners, including pilots and senior executives on time, in foreign accounts.

However, all the Indian employees are subsequently paid all their monthly dues on a specific revised date, while the pilots of erstwhile Air India are not. They are only paid a small fraction initially and the remainder is released in small installments over a period of several weeks resulting in hardship and uncertainty.

This discrimination has been occurring on a regular basis. All written representations, made to the management regarding this issue, remain unanswered.

Kindly note, that while all other sections of employees were paid all dues for January 2011, on 14 February 2011, the pilots of erstwhile Air India have only been paid a part of their emoluments. This latest example highlights the partisan attitude of the management officials.

Clearly, a section of the Air India management harbors a bias and ill will against the pilots of erstwhile Air India.

3.Stagnation in training Indian pilots in order to continue the employment of foreign pilots at exorbitantly higher costs:
For the last several years, Air India has justified the recruitment of foreign pilots, who are paid higher and work a lesser number of days, citing a shortage of trained pilots. While these foreign pilots have been employed for over 5 years, the company has not made any efforts to replace them with Indians, by training our own experienced and qualified first officers (co-pilots) as commanders.

In an attempt to expedite pilot training, many senior first officers (copilots) were assigned from Air India to Air India Express- the low cost subsidiary of Air India. However, due to gross mismanagement - especially in the training department, the training of these pilots has come to a virtual standstill. In a number of cases pilots have been on ground in excess of one year- resulting in massive losses to the company.

As a result of this stagnation in training, the company has perpetuated an artificial shortage of commanders (pilots). This is then cited as an excuse for the continued employment of foreign pilots. We strongly suspect some officials have a vested financial interest through the continued employment of foreign pilots - through recruitment agencies based on foreign shores.

It is a cruel irony that while the Indian taxpayers’ money is being sought to bail out Air India and its subsidiaries – foreign pilots are continually given preference over Indians. We have repeatedly highlighted this issue to the management and even suggested a number of remedial measures to expedite training. The management has neither responded to our letters nor taken any cognizance of our inputs.

As a last resort we had also written to the Independent Directors on the Air India Board, citing the financial implication of the stagnation in training of commanders.


5. Harassment of Pilots In case of Inability to Operate flights due to Sickness/Ill Health :
Over the last 7 months, officials of Air India’s Operations Department have been harassing pilots who are unable to illegally operate flights due to illness. In the event of legitimately availing sick leave, pilots are being threatened with disciplinary action and huge financial penalties. As a result a number of pilots are being coerced into concealing their illnesses and are being made to operate flights even when they are medically unfit to do so.

The actions of a few misguided officials of Air India’s Operations Department have created a potentially hazardous situation endangering the lives of passengers who fly Air India.

We have made a number of written representations to the Air India Management and to the DGCA. However, we have not received responses from any of the agencies.

Infact, we were alarmed to note that misleading information was recently communicated in response to queries raised on this issue at the Rajya Sabha.

It is clear that the management is adopting a hostile attitude towards the IPG and is now resorting to unconstitutional means. It appears that the Air India management is intentionally provoking industrial unrest, in order to deflect attention from their criminal mismanagement of Air India.

As is evident, we have consistently sought to amicably resolve all these outstanding issues despite the hostile approach of the management which has been completely unresponsive. It appears that the patient, reasoned approach of the IPG has been construed as a weakness.

We thus humbly seek your urgent and immediate intervention to resolve these issues within an acceptable time frame, failing which lawful proceedings calling for strike action will have to be initiated. It will be appreciated that precious human lives, valuable national resources and the very survival of Air India are at stake, while the clock is rapidly ticking away.


Yours truly,



Mr. Jeetendra Awhad,
President

CC: Secretary, Ministry of Civil Aviation
CC: Secretary, Ministry for Heavy Industries and Public Enterprises
CC: Secretary, Ministry of Labour and Employment
CC: Chairman and Managing Director, Air India Ltd
CC: Independent Directors, Members of the Board, Air India Ltd
CC: Director – Personnel, Air India Ltd
CC: Director – Finance, Air India Ltd
CC: Executive Director – Industrial Relations, Air India Ltd
CC: Executive Director – Operations, Air India Ltd
CC: Assistant Labour Commissioner – Central, Mumbai
CC: All IPG Members

[skyflies]

With safety issues involved, one has to wonder why they omitted to include DGCA in the letter.

From everything I've read and heard about DGCA, I'm not sure that would help, but at least cover your bases!

[Wizofoz]

Some of this is same same in EK

Without wishing to derail (so let's keep this brief) which bits are the same in EK?

[Tommy Tilt]

The facts of the Indian pilots discriminatory treatment, as described in the above letter, must hurt even more when a Bahraini national, Mr. Hamid Ali, is hired as Chief Operating Officer of an Indian airline and authorizes non-Indian, pilot recruitment. Mr. Ali appears on Indian television to condemn Indian pilots and then represents the airline in negotiations with those same Indian pilots!

view You Tube TV video of Mr. Hamid Ali condemning Indian pilots at the link below:

YouTube - Efforts on to break deadlock: Jet Airways COO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quSSue26-Rs)

TT
_______________________________________

The 'incredible' Mr. Hamid Ali:

Mr. Hamid Ali, a Bahraini national, joined Jet Airways in October 2007 and holds the position of Chief Operating Officer.

Mr. Hamid Ali was the A320 Chief Pilot at Gulf Air when a perfectly serviceable A320 was flown into the Persian Gulf killing all on board.

The ICAO report found:

"A lack of a crew resources management (CRM) training programme; inadequacy in some of the airline’s A320 flight crew training programmes; problems in the airline’s flight data analysis system and flight safety department which were not functioning satisfactorily; organisational and management issues within the airline"


The ICAO report available to the PUBLIC can be found at the following link:

GF072 Final Report (http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2000/a40-ek000823a/htm/a40-ek000823a.html) (at the page, click on blue sub-sections to view)

Additionally, the BBC reported:

"The chief pilot of Gulf Air's Airbus A320 fleet, Captain Hamid Ali, has previously rejected reports that pilot error was behind the crash"

The link to the BBC report available to the PUBLIC is:

BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Gulf Air improves offer (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/910743.stm)

When Jet Airways first began operating the B777, expat pilots were flying the aircraft as PIC without ever having passed a company simulator check and/or line check.

[AvMed.IN]

1.Fraudulent Amendment of Air Safety Regulations Resulting In Grave Danger To The Lives of Pilots and Passengers
Well, despite of formal announcement of centenary celebrations of Indian Aviation (http://www.avmed.in/2011/02/1911-in-aviation-history-–-india-and-the-world/), I doubt the ability of a Minister to control the rot in the system, whether it is fraudulent amendment of FDL by AI (http://www.avmed.in/2010/12/unsafe-deceit-air-india-extends-pilots-duty-hours/); facilitating the medicals and related issues (http://www.avmed.in/2010/12/alas-only-small-steps-are-taken-need-for-giant-leaps-in-civil-aviation-medicine/) or addressing sleep/rest schedule (http://www.avmed.in/2011/01/lost-sleep-compromised-safety/) for the safe skies.
One can only wait and watch for things to improve, fingers crossed!

[22/04]

Having worked for an Indian company (admitedly non-Aviaition) I can't understand why people in India tolerate things such as non or late payment. I expect the ex-pats are paid to prevent them walking. Why don't Indian staff just do the same or walk;

After all they presumably could get a job elsewhere as an ex-pat themselves and be paid on time.

India must stop blaming the rest of the world for its inadequacies and rise to meet international standards. With their booming economy surely they can afford to now - or is there sucess linked to a cheapness/late/low standards situation.

In my view from an international perspective the country would be helped enormously by a readily accessible quick acting legal system, which would allow employees to take legal action when salaries can't be/aren't paid.

Come on plots how about suing your employer. Trouble is it would take 10 years- no quick court injunctions in India

[fdr]

GulF Air 072, Management.

Surprising to see Hamid Ali coming up for air with another program. Even more surprised to hear him defending a position that the GF072 accident was not pilot error. He was in the management group advised by one of the TRI/TRE's of the GD072 Captain during his upgrade that he was not competent to be flying. The TRI/TRE resigned in protest over the response of management, and wrote to management prior to the accident. (I sighted the copy of the letter post the event, and in another part of the world. I have no reason to believe this to be other than genuine).

Is there a statute of limitations in Bahrain? (is there still a govt? :ooh:)

JetAir got what it paid for. :D

[captjns]

Tommy Tilt... Can you substatiate the no IR/LR statement by the 9W Check Airmen?

[JammedStab]

Likely the most important point to the letter writers is the facts about the foreign pilots. That is the real aim. If it were really a concern about safety overall, then perhaps there would be mention about extremely low time locals flying these jets. Not a word mentioned.

I suggest that the western expats are keeping the accident rate down.

Congratulations Air India on putting safety ahead of nationalism.(at least in this area).

[Tommy Tilt]

captjns:

I can confirm that on at least two passenger revenue flights on the B777 at Jet Airways, both pilots had never had (i) a Jet Airways B777 simulator check (ii) a Jet Airways B777 line check. An absolute fact.

You may be PM me for further details.

[beeps]

Tommy Tilt : Jet Airways as TopTup :Air India.
Hmmmmm........i wonder why they both have the same initials in their handles:)

[Tommy Tilt]

beeps;
Do you apply the same twisted logic to all names having the same coincidental initials? - how ludicrous. If my initials were JC, would you credit me with performing miracles!
I have no connection with any user name other than my own.
Frankly, if you are capable, you may wish to consider posting something more substantive and relevant to the thread.
Best wishes,
Tom
(if you remove your insinuating post, I will reciprocate)

[fullforward]

You're posting biased and incorrect information, which is far from honest:

1 - at the time of B777 introduction at Jet Airways there were NO JET AIRWAYS B777 simulator and of course no JA B777 check airmen;

2 - ALL the expats underwent full simulator check before joining JA done by a DGCA recognized foreign check airman; all of them underwent line checks; all of them were fully current on type and the less experienced had more than 2,500 hr PIC ON TYPE and in excess of 15,000 hr clean records, from airlines like Delta, Continental, American Airlines, Singapore, Korean Airlines, Austrian etc.

You're disqualifying yourself with wrong information.

On the other hand the main problems with AI wasn't barely touched by their pilots association. Do your homework and search a lot of posts here.

For instance, did you know that a B777 senior local captain got a low altitude stick shaker after a MGW take off due to plain incompetence and nothing happened to him?
He almost killed 300 passengers and crew and is still at large.

[Tommy Tilt]

2 - ALL the expats underwent full simulator check before joining JA done by a DGCA recognized foreign check airman
You are 100% wrong.

I refer specifically to the second Jet Airways B777 aircraft, first revenue flight, immediately after it arrived in BOM from DEL, on the trip BOM-LHR, LHR-BOM:

Neither the expat Captain nor the expat F/O (Captain) had EVER received a Jet Airways B777 simulator check nor line check by a DGCA designated company check airman. The only 'check' they had received by Jet Airways was a pre-hire simulator assesment in a B737!

You're posting biased and incorrect information, which is far from honest

If you are connected in any way with the DGCA and/or Jet Airways, I suggest you check the TRAINING RECORDS for the pilots operating that particular flight. The lack of simulator check and line check records will be exposed - then we will see who is correct and honest.

Before you accuse anyone of being incorrect and dishonest, be certain of your facts - schmuck!

TT

[A380 Jockey]

Nice comeback TT....;)

[vip-1]

Touche....

[woo hoo]

Speaking as one who was there i can confirm that certain 'oversights' occurred within the early days of the B777 introduction however a few months later and by late 2007 a conventional induction process was in place and operating and it was my observation that there was an absolute intent to crew all flights with properly qualified crew......of course subsequent 'oversights' may have occurred but I'm certainly not aware of any

[fullforward]

I sincerely doubt that somebody would invest some few billions of dollars to start an operation and would take chances with just a few formalities.
If you knew the details and didn't took any action you're an accomplice and endorsed the whole thing.

You're missing the botton line. What's more dangerous: a fully current, extremely experienced and professional crew that operated a flight without a stamped sheet of paper or some incompetent, inept, downright criminal crew who endanger hundreds of lifes whithout nothing happening to them?

[Tommy Tilt]

fullforward;

I sincerely doubt that somebody would invest some few billions of dollars to start an operation and would take chances with just a few formalities.

Despite being provided with specific details, you seem unwilling to accept the "confirmed" facts that "certain oversights" occurred during the B777 introduction at Jet Airways. You apologise to me in one sentence and in the next, accuse me of being an "accomplice" to acts of impropriety after the fact. However, you make no mention of the utter incompetence by Jet Airways flight 'management' nor the lack of proper supervision by the Indian DGCA.

You have invalidated your credibility with wholly incorrect statements, false accusations and your implied confused state. Although deserving, I will refrain from giving you any further derogatory label as anyone reading your post will conclude you have performed that task quite competently yourself. I trust you will not insult yourself further.

I reiterate; when Jet Airways first began operating the B777, expat pilots were flying the aircraft as PIC without ever having passed a Jet Airways B777 simulator check and/or line check. On the flight I detailed, the only 'check' the pilots had received by Jet Airways, was a pre-hire assessment in a B737 simulator.

To return to the subject of this thread; the Indian pilots have many issues, my point is and remains; any discriminatory treatment between locals and expats (at Jet Airways), must be particularly hard to accept when they are endorsed and administered by a Bahraini national with questionable flight management skills, as detailed in public reports (ref above posts).

TT

[prospector]

Pilot who 'landed plane nose-first' faked licence documents

An Indian pilot who allegedly landed a passenger plane on its nose wheel faked documents to obtain her licence and had a record of poor landings, newspapers reported Sunday.

Parminder Kaur Gulati, who has had the licence revoked, "used the nose wheel to touch down instead of the rear landing gear" at the end of a commercial flight from New Delhi to Goa last month, the Times of India reported.

An inquiry into her performance then revealed she had landed planes incorrectly between 10 and 15 times, Indian media said, citing information from the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA).

Gulati, who works for budget carrier IndiGo, was found to have forged papers to get her airline transport pilot licence (ATPL).

"We have revoked her licence. The pilot seems to have obtained an ATPL by submitting forged documents," director-general of civil aviation Bharat Bhushan told the Times. "We are going to file a police complaint."

The DGCA is probing how she got her licence having failed the examination seven times, the paper added.

IndiGo said: "We will follow any instructions from the regulator."

[fullforward]

Well, let's see: if you know those "facts" on that level either you were the FO on that flight or you're one wannabe (most probably) who had from an uncle or heard from a friend of friend of a friend such gossips.

But, if you know that fact you're truly an accomplice or benefited from that as you're only revealing it here, after 3 years, protected by anonimity. Which reveal a lot about your character...

If in my country I ever suspected that one person, regardless of nationality, is operating an aircraft full of passengers under illegal conditions I would immediately report that to the authorities.It would be my obligation.

[Tommy Tilt]

fullforward - with foot in mouth (once again);

Well let's see indeed; unfortunately, you did not heed my advice. I cannot fathom why you insist on exposing your lack of education.

But, if you know that fact you're truly an accomplice or benefited from that as you're only revealing it here, after 3 years

If an individual is aware of impropriety AFTER the fact and did not take part in the impropriety, they are NOT an accomplice. I cannot conceive how anyone aware of the stated violations at a later date could benefit from such events. Other than this thread, you have no knowledge to whom, where and when the facts have been revealed. The matter was reported to both Jet Airways and the Indian DGCA. Therefore, your assertions are wrong, yet again.

I suspect you are enduring that period of physiological change occurring every 28-days and are venting your pains at the wrong individual (often the case at such times). You should be directing your frustrations at Jet Airways incompetent flight 'management', negligent Indian DGCA and an Indian Chairman of an Indian airline, who appoints an inept foreign national to the post of Chief Operating Officer, to endorse and administer a discriminatory policy against Indian pilots (previous post refers).

It is my obligation to inform you that with each post you only further reveal the ignorance of your character. Clearly, you desperately "wannabe" taken seriously. Sadly, as evidenced by your above posts, this will be impossible for you to attain.

[Shaka Zulu]

Spot on Tommy Tilt.

[Deep Blue Aviatrix]

The Question is not about Any specific Airline in the country instead as This Thread Mainly concentrates on Is about the stagnation that has crept in and is stopping the growth in career as well as experience of the Young Indian Aviator as Well as The RAMPANT Discrimination against Senior Indian Aviators and COMMANDERS of the Same or even Much Higher Experience than the Present day Ex-Pats

The Ex-Pats defend their position saying that there are a lot of low time fliers flying in this country and that they are trying to educate them and bring them upto the level of proficiency required to fly. Without any prejudice, It is However Hard to believe. Mainly Because of the Following Reasons:

1. NO EX-PAT By far has EVER COME ACROSS as ever willing to help train a young Indian Aviator or help him get a job off his own free will or without personal interest. However, one may find many of them working hard to get more of their ex-pat friends into the Indian Aviation sector and further promoting their own interests, thereby STAGNATING the Growth of Indian Aviators despite of the Noticeable Growth in INDIAN Aviation Itself.

2. All that the Ex-Pats do is keep the accident rate down
Well, Certainly most Ex-Pats who one may come across on a daily basis are basically the one's who retired from their companies back home when the old 58yr retirement rule persisted or the one's who were let off due to reason of age, lack of professional competence as compared to the other pilots in the company (mostly because of weeding during recession), or health even after the 65 yr retirement rule came in.
Most of them are either suffering from one or more problems of old age, Suffer Higher rate of Exhaustion, Endurance is much lesser towards pilot stress.
And Untill Last year (When SO MANY EX-PAT ACCIDENTS and INCIDENTS came to light) Didn't even need an Indian Class 1

3. Another Point On "SAFETY"- RADIO AIDS!
Many foreign pilots (specially those with a strong accent) Either have a hard time Understanding the ATC or they have a Hard Time Making the ATC understand what they want! This in fact has been the MAIN CAUSE for most of the incidents that have taken place in the recent years.

4. extremely low-time pilots flying these jets

Well that's exactly what the point is about raising the question of stagnation! Low-time pilots cannot become high time pilots till they fly more and get trained faster and better by the airline. WHICH as the Aforementioned letter points out...is not happening And the Main Reason being STAGNATION & Blockage Being Caused because of Ex-Pats.

5. Also, It is to be noted that the letter NO-WHERE mentions or promotes making low-time pilots fly, However It does bring forth the point that there are AMPLY QUALIFIED INDIAN PILOTS (FOs) Ready to be PROMOTED! which in turn of course will open up training arenas for the younger lot. (So the question of Low-time pretty much goes out the window here)

6. Anyway FINALLY ALL SAID & DONE, even if ALL these points are Over looked then there is still one thing, Whatever Happened to The CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT of " EQUAL PAY FOR EQUAL WORK! "

Oh wait I forgot the Ex-Pats don't Even Work Equally...so that's another bump in the road there...So Our Ex-Pat friends are Not Only being Paid MORE , in-fact they are being PAID MORE FOR LESS WORK!

It is Sad that Even though we In India have the Capability to Rule Any International field with our Knowledge, In our own country we end up treating our own people as 2nd class citizens.

Anybody who may have Questions or Require Confirmations about the SAFETY maintained by ex-pat pilots in India, may refer the following link:

DGCA toughens rules; clean record must for expat pilots - Economic Times (http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2010-07-26/news/28384327_1_wrong-runway-expat-pilots-foreign-pilots)

[Admiral346]

I am really not very interessted in the expat problem, but this sentence gave me to think all night:

It is Sad that Even though we In India have the Capability to Rule Any International field with our Knowledge, In our own country we end up treating our own people as 2nd class citizens.


The arogance it holds is just too much, at least the first part.

People are dying of hunger in India, sleeping on the sidewalks, there are huge slums, bigger than I have seen anywhere else in the world.
I have seen the open sewage ditches running through the cities there, and the incredible polution of the air.

Please, start using your "Capability to Rule Any International field" at home first.
Working for cheaper doesn't mean you're working better!

Take a look around the world and think on what might have to improve at home.

Sorry, but your rant just makes me angry.

[beeps]

Maybe Deep Blue Aviatrix has not been able to express what he/she really wants to say and i hope he/she means is that Indians do well in all fields all over the world and have risen to the upper ranks in different jobs all over. What's happening here in the indian aviation sector is that the locals are not being given an oppurtunity to get employed...gain experience and come up. The airlines have taken the easy way out to overcome their shortfall in captains by employing expats at higher salaries and better T&C's than that are offered to locals.
It is not the expats the locals are against but its a point we have been trying to convince the management that they need to employ locals and think long term.
At the same time expat arguments about how they are here to improve safety is bulls**t as indians before also have flown all over the world and there has been no change in safety standards other than the improvement that comes along with time and thats applicable to all people across the globe in all jobs.

About the condition of the roads and slums and a lot else in major cities too.....its a sad state of affairs thanks to the corrupt politicians who don't care and unfortunately not much can be done about that.

[A380 Jockey]

Hook,line and sinker...
Good job done at what you were supposed to do Deep Blue...:}
Get your grammar straight before you audition as a wannabe thread winder ..
Off now.

[doubleu-anker]

Mangalore. There were two pilots on that aircraft when it crashed. The F/O was a senior F/O ready for command I am informed. What was he doing to help avoid this tragedy apart from voicing his concerns things were not OK and suggesting a missed approach? I do wonder what sort of incapacity training the F/O had, if any. Sure the Captain got it wrong and all the blame has been stacked on him. There is no mention or evidence of the F/O intervening directly to try and avoid what happened. I take it, it was a two crew operation. If I was a F/O and I thought we were going to crash I would do anything to avoid a crash, even if it meant wrestling the controls from the PF. Yes, even if I had to hit the guy over the head with the fire axe to stop him killing me!

I would sooner strap my backside to an aircraft as a passenger, knowing full well there is an experienced Captain up front. He maybe retired or let go by their previous employer, however knacked he may feel after a long day. There is no substute for overall experience. None whatsoever and the more the better. Far sooner that, than an inexperienced captain, who has a good chance of not being selected into the airline on merit as he has connections, maybe cheated somewhere along the line. etc., etc. Even if he or she has passed this space cadet/fighter pilot/astronaut medical examination the DGCA require. Reinventing the wheel will not reduce the accident rate in this case. The expats now have to subject themselves to this folly also. In fact I will suggest that this directive alone will increase the accident/incident rate, as it will turn away the experienced expats. Of course this is the very point of having them sit the DGCA medical every 6 months, in addition to 2 medicals they normally sit for their licence which is validated by the DGCA.

Radio work. I was listening on a tower frequency recently at an airport in India. An aircraft was being read a departure clearance. Before the radio operator of the aircraft receiving the clearance was able to read back the clearance, he was stamped on by an AI radio operator demanding a start up clearance as he was late. Is it surprising the expats sometimes have trouble interpreting radio signals, when they have to contend with this sort of arrogant and amateurish behaviour?

[Captain Dart]

If I had a dollar for every time I've had to say 'say again' in Indian airspace I could quit my job!

'Pushy', 'cloth-eared' and 'inconsiderate' are frequently used adjectives when describing Indian radio traffic exchanges.

And WHEN will Indian Air Traffic Controllers realise that slow and clear enunciation will actually SAVE them work :ugh:?

[captjns]

Well perhaps SWIP will get the wish. Fewer expats and more upgrades. Who wins??? the egos of SWIP or temporary down graded safety of the overall operation? At the end of the day you can't blame SWIP for the desire of more Indian F/Os getting their command. However, IMHO, the expat is wrongfully baring the brunt of the frustation of the unions. They need to look towrads Delhi... at their own DGCA for their current situation.

As far as the First Class Medical is concerned, the Air Force issues initial First Class Medical Certificate. Collusion may be afoot on this issue as 6 out of 6 have been downed in the Bangalore Facility alone. Not aware of what is up in Delhi. Perhaps another issue for another thread.

SWIP needs to direct their angst towards the DGCA for immediate reform within their aviation system and not the expat. The Indian DGCA is the reason as for the slow progression of the Indian Pilot... not the expat!

I've flown in six continents on this planet, and I've never seen such "Organized Chaos" or corruption as I have witnessed within the the Indian aviation system. Shame on the DGCA, shame on the ministers of India and yes... shame on SWIP for allowing this behavior to go on unchecked!

Unless flying with a check airman, F/Os are not allowed to touch the jet until time is served in the right seat after being released to the line... similar to China. After a period of time, the F/O's name is submitted to the DGCA to be added to the assisted takeoffs and landings list. This list if provided by the airline. This can take an additional two to three months for this miracle to occur.

OK SWIP, If you want to see the F/Os progress then SWIP needs to provide oversight to ensure that the assisted takeoff and landing list is updated on a regular basis.

To make complicate matters F/Os are paired up with new expats. They still can't fly the jet until that expat has about 500 hours experience with their Indian Carrier. Provided the expat's name is put on the "Assisted Takeoff and Landing" list issued by.... guess who???? You're right!!! the DGCA!!! Again you need to understand that the Assisted Takeoff and Landing List is list is not issued on a regular basis either. Again, shame on the DGCA!!! and SWIP for their lack of oversight on this matter too!!!

I will say this however, when given the chance, F/O's perform pretty well when given the chance to hand fly the jet. Their levels of motivation are highly increased too.

That being said most F/O's enjoy flying with the expats in India for that reason. Perhaps they can shead the title "Microsoft Pilot" with the more hands on experience they are able to... that their own commanders will not allow them to get.

Another poster used the term "Third World". Well as it pertains to the aviation system in India, that term is an insult to those country's aviation systems are truly Third World.

At the end of the day the purpose of the expat in India is not to displace the Indian pilot... but to provide a service to the airline until the Indian F/O meets the standards of requriements as promulgated by the DGCA's Regulations. So with that being said, SWIP needs to direct their energy and attention towards reform within their own DGCA rather than attempting to have the expat kicked out.

[Challenger05]

:D Excellent post captjns

"I will say this however, when given the chance, F/O's perform pretty well when given the chance to hand fly the jet. Their levels of motivation are highly increased too.

That being said most F/O's enjoy flying with the expats in India for that reason. Perhaps they can shead the title "Microsoft Pilot" with the more hands on experience they are able to... that their own commanders will not allow them to get."

Couldnt agree more with you...
It seems like such a simple thing yet for some reason a lot of captains and even instructors find it impossible to understand it. I think any captain who doesnt like to give controls to the F/O is doubtful of his own capability (unless of course he knows the F/O to be incapable in which case, he should have a chat with the guy and he should pass him off to a instructor). Its a simple fact. If all i do in a 3 hour flight is turn a few knobs and make some radio calls, what good will it to do my skill, motivation, confidence and knowledge and indeed my confidence in the captain.

When I was even greener than I am now, I was really fortunate to fly with some excellent captains both locals and expats, and the experience and motivation one got from their simply being in the cockpit made up for all the BS we had to go through outside of the cockpit.

One of the best instructors once told me " Now go on and fly her son, and dun worry too much, there is precious little you can do in this aircraft that I cant recover from. And in time so will you"
Can you imagine the sheer confidence the FO will have about the captain and his capability, the drive it instilled in one to do their best to get a simple "well done" from such a man? Unfortunately men like him are in real short supply today. A real pity.

As far as the expats vs local debate goes. once again the wisdom from yet another gem of an instructor comes through : " I have never claimed to be better than anyone else, so I see no reason to agree to being worse. And I believe no one else should."

With the same training, opportunities and motivation every pilot can rise up to the same level of competence. :ok:


keep it simple, keep it smooth.
Happy landings

[OzAviator]

Well to be honest I don't think any of these guys are really against ex-pats coz none of em, neither
the letter nor any of the posts (including that of Deep Blue) ever stated anyhing about any problems at the hands of ex-pats themselves. It's a whole other thing that they indeed seem to be resentful about the apparent discrimination, as it may seem to them, happening Because of the ex-pats. It is but natural for any community to attack the most visible cause of a problem as it may appear to them, when they can't find the actual reason for the trouble which may be rooted much deeper than what they actually see. It's pretty understandable when you compare the frustation building within these guys to the one we often see in the west when it comes to Outsourcing.

What we need to make them realise is that we're here to work with them and not with an idea of replacing them.

[captjns]

OzAviator says...

What we need to make them realise is that we're here to work with them and not with an idea of replacing them.

Spot on:ok:! I have always said the purpose of the expat is to fulfill a temporary need until first officers reach a level of proficiency deemed appropriate by their airline and DGCA so that they can upgrade.

That's all there is to it.

[SeniorEagle]

The DGCA is not protecting the interest of Indian Pilots.
There is a certain Pilot Provisioning company AVIANCO registered in Canada but run by Indians including an Ex M.D. of Indian Airlines and staffed by retired DGCA guys, this company makes big bucks on providing Pilots to Air India and the loot is shared all around. The estimated amount is about 400 crore per annum.
I hope the new Civil Aviation Minister is upright enough not to partake of this loot and eliminate these middlemen.:ok: It will be a big step in saving Air India from financial disaster.

[PT6A]

SeniorEagle,

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the DGCA is there to protect the interests of Indian pilots.....

I think you might wish to check what the role of a functioning aviation authority is.

PT6A

[ankur.aviator]

I have quite a few friends (F/Os) in Air India and AI Express..... What i've gathered from most of them is that they enjoy flying with Expats....
I therefore agree with Captjns and OzAviator.... They dont mean harm to the Expats... just that they are worried about their own finances....
Just for facts... I'm flying for erstwhile Indian Airlines (now Air India)... we get paid by the hour.... and we fly as less as 50 hours a month (as compared to about 75 earlier)... flying allowances are dispensed at the end of the following month (i.e. flying allowances for FEB 2011 would be paid on 31st MAR 2011).... this in turn is regularly delayed by 1 to 3 weeks.... That does not happen to the Expats... this probably is the reason for their "remarks and letter writing"...

As far as the DGCA or the Ministry of Civil Aviation is concerned..... 'chaos and corruption' rule them just like any other Indian Govt undertaking.... SHAME..!

[OzAviator]

But then How are the ex-pats to be blamed for that sir? They hire us, We get Hired. Just like any other professional, the ex-pats are there to earn money out of their skill and find new opportunities for themselves as the market grows as any professional would. We apply to open job ads, we fulfill the requirements and we join. How would we join an Indian company if the company didn't ask us to join in the first place? So I guess you would also agree that in the whole scenario the ex-pats can't be blamed for getting employment in India in the first place. Of-course stagnation, discrimination etc are other issues again which even though they may be related to ex-pats but are not under the control of the ex-pats either.