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LimaFoxTango
18th Feb 2011, 15:00
There's a big discussion I had recently with a few pilots. So your on an IFR flight plan and was cleared for a visual approach at an airport. Subsequently, you initiate a missed approach for whatever reason. The big question was, what altitude do you climb to? Some say MSA, some say 1500ft AGL. My question is, what is the correct procedure? What does ATC expect? Any PANS-OPS, FAA or JAA documents speak to this?

Thanks....

BOAC
18th Feb 2011, 15:26
Search on the forum. LFT - this has been discussed before. You are STILL flying under IFR on a visual approach UNLESS you 'CANCEL IFR' with ATC. Theoretically thus the g/a would be for the IFR approach in use. Practically a chat with ATC will determine what you can do. Normally into the circuit would be fine UNLESS there is other IFR traffic in which case you would need to either fly the IFR g/a OR follow ATC directions. I do not think this is specifically determined in 'pilot' writing, however, but it may be in some ATC manual.

sevenstrokeroll
18th Feb 2011, 19:59
first off, you are on an IFR clearance and not just a flight plan.

second off. if you are on a visual approach, with clearance for such, you are very likely to maintain visual contact with the airport and you have the airport in sight...unless it is a charted visual approach procedure and any of the landmarks noted on the chart is sufficient.

'it is quite possible to get a visual approach clearance to an airport that is not served by an instrument approach of any kind.

unless there is a visual missed approach procedure published, you as the pilot may GO AROUND if you want or need to...but since you are visual, maintain visual with the airport, if atc is available coordinate with them...if you are going into a non ATC airport, use your best judgement and come back and land.

IF you need to go IMC, back into the clouds for any reason, if there isn't a MSA published, you have to use YOUR knowledge to comply with terrain clearance...re contact ATC advise them you are IMC and unable to land off the visual approach and they will work something out.

Generally speaking there is adequate clearance from other IFR traffic maintained until you are on the ground and ATC cancels your IFR clearance, or until you cancel.

as a reminder, 2000' clearance in mountainious terrain, 1000' in non mountaionous.

OF course if you have been ''cheating'' and said you had the airport in sight and NO ONE ELSE EVER REPORTS IT IN SIGHT, there might be a word or two with the FAA or authority..

In actuality, either VMC or IMC , after you notify ATC, they will tell you what to do...BUT IF YOU CAN'T TALK TO THEM...You better be ready with knowledge and action to avoid terrain and keep yourself and other planes safe.

misd-agin
18th Feb 2011, 21:38
Three of the most common Visual Approach Procedures in the U.S. are the Canarsie Visual 13L/R @ KJFK, the Expressway Visual Rwy 31 @ KLGA, and the River Visual Rwy 19 @ KDCA. In the 'Missed Approach' section it says - "No missed approach procedure."

If you're on a visual approach there is no 'missed approach procedure. Notify the tower or controlling agency. Comply with their instructions if able. If unable advise them of your intentions.

DO NOT robotically fly the missed approach procedure for the runway you just flew a VISUAL approach to. Years ago we had a flight into KORD go-around on the ILS 14R. They started flying the published missed approach procedure without advising ATC. Unfortunately approaches were also being flown to 09R. The missed approach procedure for the ILS 14R turned to the west towards the aircraft on the ILS 09R.

Pattern altitude or MSA? Before you can answer that there are other questions - what are your intentions? Is the airport controlled or uncontrolled? What did ATC say? Can you maintain visual conditions? Can you maintain VMC/VFR conditions?

Quick checklist?

1. advise controlling agency of go-around
2. comply with their instructions if able
3. if unable advise controlling agency of intentions
4. debate/negotiate options with controlling agency
5. if steps 2-5 are unsuccessful declare an emergency if necessary(rarely, ever, gets this far)

Admiral346
18th Feb 2011, 23:21
Years ago we had a flight into KORD go-around on the ILS 14R. They started flying the published missed approach procedure without advising ATC. Unfortunately approaches were also being flown to 09R. The missed approach procedure for the ILS 14R turned to the west towards the aircraft on the ILS 09R.

Well, I think the aircraft did just right. Cleard for the ILS 14R and deciding to go around, whatever else should they have flown? Assuming you were a controler there, you should have issued missed approach instructions with the ILS clearance if you wanted them to fly anything else.

For the general issue, I usually brief a visual pattern towards the circling side at 1500' AGL when cleared for a visual. But thinking about it, a word to ATC about the plan while the radios still work will be on my list from now on.

Nic

sevenstrokeroll
19th Feb 2011, 02:35
the whole point is to advise atc you are ''going around, or MISSED"...if there is a bonafide radio problem, fly the published...what can you do? but if they say, fly runway heading maintain 3000 contact approach...that's what you should do.

mind you, you could be really cool and ask in advance...if we need to fly a missed approach, do you want us to plan the published or are there alternate instructions?

galaxy flyer
19th Feb 2011, 04:08
In a radar environment, you can pretty much assume that the tower controller will issue specific instructions upon missing the approach. Just let the ATCO know, "xxxx, Missed Approach" and you should get something like, "xxxx, Fly runway heading, contact approach on ....." Yes, if you lost all radios, fly the published, but the published is just about never used in radar.

I was an IP at an AFB near a civilian airport and tried to fly the published approach for training and the controller couldn't approve on three requests, "due traffic". Flying the published miss might get you closer to traffic at a lot of airports than just going straight ahead.

GF

Admiral346
19th Feb 2011, 07:46
SSR, of course you are right. ATC should get an immediate call when going around. But even though a goaround is a normal manouver, it is not performed that often and usually the "break" from an already tense and stressfull situation, so being occupied with handling it communication might drop on the priority list (intentionally or subconciously).

Almost all my flying leads to airports with radar surveillance, but still a lot of them do not change the missed app until late in the procedure. My homebase is rather busy and has a 90 deg turn after about a mile when going around. One usually flys until established on that track, then the controler intervenes with vectors to get you back in the pattern.

In Amsterdam, in my opinion the best airport in the world ATC-wise, the missed approach is usually straight out, climb xthousand feet, call ATC. There are special instructions for Comfail published.
They publish what they really want you to fly, and the remote case of comfail is also covered. Simple, functional, efficient.

GF, if flying the published miss is going to get you into traffic, it should be changed. And if changing it when issuing the app clearance is too much babbling on the frequency, why not publish something smart? It is in ATCs hands to do so.

Nic

aviatorhi
19th Feb 2011, 09:05
Sevenstrokeroll got it right in his reply...

Realistically, I would just enter the pattern and land, if I was being vectored around then when I'm cleared for a visual I get that little addendum to my clearance which says "radar service terminated", so I'm on my own for all intents and purposes unless I choose to get "radar service" again. On the other hand most of the other places I fly have no "controlling agency", in a practical sense, we simply get a cruise clearance to the airport and told to call on the ground.

9.G
19th Feb 2011, 09:14
flying a visual doesn't mean the radar service is terminated to start with. secondly always check the countries rules & regs. since specific instructions may be issued like in Ozzie land:

Go Around And Missed Approach Procedure in VMC

In the event that an aircraft is required to go around from a visual approach in VMC, the aircraft must initially climb on runway track, remain visual and await instructions from ATC. If the aircraft can not clear obstacles on runway track, the aircraft may turn.

The exception to the above procedure is that, at Sydney Intl, a visual go around must be carried out:

a.
in accordance with the published instrument missed approach procedure for the primary instrument approach for the runway the aircraft is using; or

b.
as directed by ATC. Conclusion don't assume, check:ok:

aviatorhi
19th Feb 2011, 11:35
flying a visual doesn't mean the radar service is terminated to start with
No, but the words "radar service terminated" mean that exact thing.

Realistically, at an uncontrolled field, ATC has cleared the airspace for me to maneuver and report my landing on the ground, I can do 3 circles around the airport for all they care, so long as when I do land I let them know when I'm clear of their airspace (on the ground). At a controlled field everything will typically fall into place on its own, when you initiage a go around, you let the tower know, they will give you further instructions... those instructions my be "fly the published missed approach procedure", they may be "fly heading XXX climb an maintain XXXX".

9.G
19th Feb 2011, 17:02
Flying visual approach doesn't involve termination of the radar service, canceling the IFR flight plan when flying to a uncontrolled airfield does. In this case once transferred to an advisory frequency the radar service is terminated automatically.


6.5.3 Visual Approach

6.5.3.1 Subject to the conditions in 6.5.3.3, clearance for an IFR flight to execute a visual approach may be requested by a flight crew or initiated by the controller. In the latter case, the concurrence of the flight crew shall be required.

6.5.3.3 An IFR flight may be cleared to execute a visual approach provided that the pilot can maintain visual reference to the terrain and;

a.
the reported ceiling is at or above the level of the beginning of the initial approach segment for the aircraft so cleared; or

b.
the pilot reports at the level of the beginning of the initial approach segment or at any time during the instrument approach procedure that the meteorological conditions are such that with reasonable assurance a visual approach and landing can be completed.


6.5.3.4 Separation shall be provided between an aircraft cleared to execute a visual approach and other arriving and departing aircraft.

6.5.3.5 For successive visual approaches, separation shall be maintained by the controller until the pilot of a succeeding aircraft reports having the preceding aircraft in sight. The aircraft shall then be instructed to follow and maintain own separation from the preceding aircraft. When both aircraft are of a heavy wake turbulence category, or the preceding aircraft is of a heavier wake turbulence category than the following, and the distance between the aircraft is less than the appropriate wake turbulence minimum, the controller shall issue a caution of possible wake turbulence. The pilot-in-command of the aircraft concerned shall be responsible for ensuring that the spacing from a preceding aircraft of a heavier wake turbulence category is acceptable. If it is determined that additional spacing is required, the flight crew shall inform the ATC unit accordingly, stating their requirements. :ok:

misd-agin
19th Feb 2011, 19:28
Admiral346 - Well, I think the aircraft did just right. Cleard for the ILS 14R and deciding to go around, whatever else should they have flown? Assuming you were a controler there, you should have issued missed approach instructions with the ILS clearance if you wanted them to fly anything else.

For the general issue, I usually brief a visual pattern towards the circling side at 1500' AGL when cleared for a visual. But thinking about it, a word to ATC about the plan while the radios still work will be on my list from now on.

Nic
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Flying the published MAP, while on a visual, or when the airport is VFR/VMC, without ATC approval can.

AMS/FRA might have MAP procedures, due to airspace, that allow an aircraft on a MA/Go-around to fly the MAP in VFR/VMC conditions. Other airports, to increase VFR/VMC arrival traffic, don't have that luxury, due to other airports(ie EWR/LGA/JFK) or airport configuration (ORD).

For example, visual KJFK 31R. You go-around and decide to fly the MAP without communicating with ATC. That will turn you towards the departing traffic on 31L. Straight ahead isn't an option for long (KLGA 8 n.m. away).

JFK tower will typically give you "runway heading/2000' " and get any departure off of 31L to start a turn to the left. After the 31L aircraft starts turning JFK tower will give you a left turn to avoid LGA's airspace.

Been there, done that. :ooh:

aviatorhi
21st Feb 2011, 14:22
For the second time in as many days:


Flying visual approach doesn't involve termination of the radar service


The words "radar service terminated", when added to my visual approach clearance to an uncontrolled airport mean that radar service is terminated... :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

DERG
21st Feb 2011, 14:35
"For example, visual KJFK 31R. You go-around and decide to fly the MAP without communicating with ATC. That will turn you towards the departing traffic on 31L."

:eek:

9.G
21st Feb 2011, 14:41
aviatorhi, flying to a uncontrolled airfield means your IFR flight plan is canceled when radar service is terminated consequently NO clearance for a visual approach can be given. You complete the flight VFR talking to advisory frequency activating lightning by clicks if necessary closing flight plan after landing by any available means. Perhaps you guys have armored foreheads on the island or logic isn't part of vocabulary :ok:

aviatorhi
21st Feb 2011, 15:25
Perhaps operations in AUS differ from the US. However, I routinley fly on an IFR flight plan (without cancelling it) outside of a radar environment, cleared for a visual to a non towered airport as well as oceanic and remote operations. I guess Qantas have to cancel IFR every time they pass into the Oaklands airspace coming out of here, since radar service is terminated and they are told to sqawk 2000, fascinating stuff.

My experience of flying over 2000 flights into uncontrolled fields under IFR and cancelling on the ground with the airspace remaining cleared for me and operating under an IFR clearance tell me otherwise.

aterpster
21st Feb 2011, 16:30
aviatorhi:

Perhaps operations in AUS differ from the US. However, I routinley fly on an IFR flight plan (without cancelling it) outside of a radar environment, cleared for a visual to a non towered airport as well as oceanic and remote operations. I guess Qantas have to cancel IFR every time they pass into the Oaklands airspace coming out of here, since radar service is terminated and they are told to sqawk 2000, fascinating stuff.

My experience of flying over 2000 flights into uncontrolled fields under IFR and cancelling on the ground with the airspace remaining cleared for me and operating under an IFR clearance tell me otherwise.

The poster is a troll.

sevenstrokeroll
21st Feb 2011, 20:31
radar service terminated means just that...no radar procedures are now in effect, but your instrument clearance is as before. you know about position reports, doing your own navigation (onboard). Also, no more traffic advisories...but you do have the airspace protected from IFR traffic.

Going into KPHL on a routine basis for my airline, we often had radar service terminated by Center with a frequency change to approach control...approach control answered right away and they never reported us in radar contact, so we had to ask>>>EACH TIME.

Now, everywhere else in the 48 lower states this isn't the case...but KPHL is a really nutty spot with New York Center and Washington Center both trying not to have too much to do with it..

If you are making a visual to a non ATC airport...fine...upon landing, if able via radio, cancel direct with ATC...if not, attempt to contact Flight Service via radio or even over the VOR freq and ask them to relay to ATC . If not, find a phone and call atc via telephone.

I daresay that many questions on tech log about instrument procedures could be answered by reading the Aeronautical Information Manual....buy a copy for settling bets.

Love_joy
21st Feb 2011, 20:55
This is essentially an easy question to answer, at least in the UK/near Europe anyway.

If you request, or accept a 'visual' approach on an IFR flight plan - you remain in reciept of an IFR service and you should fly a suitable published missed approach for that runway.

If you have cancelled IFR, you should simply return to the visual circuit as detailed, or confirm missed approach instructions with ATC.

If in any doubt, just ask...

aviatorhi
22nd Feb 2011, 01:57
Great...

I'm a "troll" because I understand that being cleared for a visual with termination of radar services means I'm still on an IFR clearance.

:ugh:

9.G
22nd Feb 2011, 09:54
Aviatorhi, you made me get to the bottom of this, for that I thank you.

Here we go:
5-1-15 CANCELING IFR FLIGHT PLAN
If operating on an IFR flight plan to an airport where there is no functioning control tower, the pilot must initiate cancellation of the IFR flight plan. This can be done after landing if there is a functioning FSS or other means of direct communications with ATC. In the event there is no FSS and/or air/ground communications with ATC is not possible below a certain altitude, the pilot should, weather conditions permitting, cancel the IFR flight plan while still airborne and able to communicate with ATC by radio. This will not only save the time and expense of canceling the flight plan by telephone but will quickly release the airspace for use by other aircraft.

Conclusion: it can be done both ways canceling IFR and continuing IFR. However as much as I disagree with your title of Troll I disagree with a statement of being cleared for a VISUAL approach after radar service being terminated. The clearance will be given to proceed to your destination airfield
with the wording cleared to XXXX radar service terminated contact advisory xxx,xx. You can elect to continue by visual means or by following published IAP, it's up to you. There's NO separation provided between IFR & VFR traffic.
You state your intention to FSS and they simply acknowledge NO clearance is given. Should you proceed by visual means or VFR you're expected to join the traffic pattern and report downwind, base and final. In case you follow IAP OM, FAF etc is to be reported. The flight plan is to be canceled after landing.

The truth is born is the discussion. :ok:

aviatorhi
22nd Feb 2011, 10:47
I'll agree with most of that, and I'll also point out that I used the phrasing "addendum" when referring to cancellation of radar services, which would mean the cancellation comes after the approach clearance. As far as cancellation goes I would typically use the HF set (if so equipped), if that has poor reception (shakes fist at Auckland Radio), I'll get the Satphone out. Relaying a cancellation via a passing aircraft is also an option.

I'll also point out that in remote places (Alaska for instance), we would often operate outside of the radar coverage area, on an IFR flight plan and be cleared for a visual, more often than not I preferred a cruise clearance (this equates to being cleared from your present cruise altitude all the way to the ground) once I was outside of the radar coverage area. Out of the many airports I flew into, 3 had control towers, 4 had FSS and the dozens of others had nothing more than a gravel runway and a ramp.

I always enjoyed having FAA inspectors from more "traditional" operations riding along with us, my favorite one was a guy who told me I can't fly VFR in a 121 (Scheduled Commercial operation in the US) airplane, and he was shocked that I did that for one of the legs (we would do 8 legs on a slow day). I quickly pointed out that if it was illegal why did my GOM contain OPSPECS authorizing me to do so, I wish I had a camera to capture the look on his face when he saw I wasn't BSing him and that we were authorized to operate at 500 ft AGL and 1 miles visibility for the enroute portion of the flight (VFR ofcourse), very useful when the airports don't have IAPs.

mad_jock
22nd Feb 2011, 13:09
In the discussion before the ATC chaps said that......

They are having conferences on the subject because it isn't actually defined as such internationally.

There are some countries which have thier own procedures eg US but many don't but there is urban myth that there is a procedure eg UK its fly the missed approach for the instrument approach you were orginally cleared for.

Apparently its all very complicated and one shoe doesn't fit all.

The only real way to find out is to ask.

9.G
22nd Feb 2011, 16:48
once again FAA has been somewhat ahead of the game by authorizing the CONTACT approach. VFR under 121, not sure if there's any restriction in FAR but certainly most of the flag carriers elect to forbid commercial VFR flight, it's a matter of liability etc.:ok:

aterpster
22nd Feb 2011, 18:17
9.G:

once again FAA has been somewhat ahead of the game by authorizing the CONTACT approach. VFR under 121, not sure if there's any restriction in FAR but certainly most of the flag carriers elect to forbid commercial VFR flight, it's a matter of liability etc

Another example of how little you know about all of this.

9.G
22nd Feb 2011, 19:02
aterpster, attitude determines altitudes is unshakable axiome of aviation. Unless you change your attitude you're bound to stay off the radar old man. :ok:

sevenstrokeroll
22nd Feb 2011, 20:07
I know of no FAR part 121 major US airline that authorizes contact approaches. (per operations manuals) However for your initial question, a contact approach (authorized only where there is a published instrument approach) would cover you in a missed approach situation.

9.G
22nd Feb 2011, 20:29
sevenstrokeroll, in case your last post was for me. I didn't suggest otherwise. Whatever the carrier choses to implement as authorized procedures can't exceed the regs it certainly can be more restrictive. I SPOKE ABOUT FAA AUTHORIZING THE CONCEPT NOT THE AIRLINES IMPLEMENTING IT. As usual it's left to the operator to decide bout it. No such concept as CONTACT APPROACHES or SIDE STEP are available in EU OPS to my knowledge. That's the whole point. I concur with the rest of your message.:ok:

galaxy flyer
22nd Feb 2011, 22:37
For all the bluster, MSFS pseudo-experts, and the general nastiness, not one person has accurately referred to the controlling FAA document:

Per Airman's Information Manual, Chapter 5, Section 4 (Arrival Procedures), Paragraph 22 (Visual Approach), sub-paragraph e:

A visual approach is NOT an IAP and therefore has NO missed approach segment. If a go around is necessary for any reason, aircraft operating at controlled fields will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled fields, aircraft are expected to remain clear of clouds and complete a landing as soon as possible. If an landing cannot be accomplished, the aircraft is expected to remain clear of clouds and contact ATC as soon as possible for further clearance. Separation from other IFR aircraft will be maintained under these circumstances. (Empahsis added)

I cannot find a Doc 8168 answer, as it primarily references IAPs; but I cannot believe a vastly different answer is appropriate. While I recognize the UK has specific procedures, following the missed approach for an approach one was NOT cleared to fly (and maybe one of several for the runway in use) in crowded airspace may be questionable airmanship. Missed approach procedures are frequently designed as 'standalone' procedures and do not address busy airspace, multiple planes flying approaches.

GF

9.G
22nd Feb 2011, 23:09
here's the ICAO definitions:

VISUAL APPROACH
An approach by an IFR flight when either part or all of an instrument approach procedure is not completed and the approach is executed in visual reference to terrain.

MISSED APPROACH PROCEDURE
The procedure to be followed if the approach cannot be continued.

Unlike FAA it's a very vague definition. :ok:

BOAC
23rd Feb 2011, 09:32
9.G - I have actually found that quite clear enough over 44 years or so.

EDIT: Rest removed as I have now read the relevant FAR

galaxy flyer
23rd Feb 2011, 10:42
The introduction of the FAA "Contact" approach is another red herring that has no relevance to the discussion on visuals or go around procedures. A contact can ONLY be authorized at airfields with IAPs, required weather is only "clear of clouds", 1 SM visibility and the pilot's reasonably expecting to continue to the field visually. Yes, one can fly a contact to an airport with mins of 2 SM, if the field is reporting 1 SM visibility--busting mins legally. But, contacts within the context of FAR 121 flying are rare events, probably AK mostly.

The FAA just put out a InFO (InFormation for Operators) letter on 1/25/2011 on visual approaches. It cautions pilot's that they must remain "clear of cloud" during any visual approach, that there is NO missed approach segment to be flown and that a go around must remain "clear of cloud". The letter is the result of pilot's accepting visuals in marginal VMC raising questiions as to the pilot's compliance with regulations. You MUST have the airport or the preceding aircraft in sight and be able to fly to the destination while remaining clear of clouds.

The link is http://faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info

It is a VISUAL maneuver--why all this talk of missed approaches? If you cannot fly clear of cloud, don't accept the visual, insist on a clearance for the IAP.

GF

BOAC
23rd Feb 2011, 11:35
GF - I think the 'missed approach' here means folk are concerned on stuffing up the pattern somewhere and what to do, not 'losing sight in scud etc'. In the UK if you do, say, screw up the final turn and get high/fast/unstable etc and g/a, you should follow ATC direction for any g/a because in the airline world you are probably still 'IFR' (although 'visual') and thus ATC are responsible for IFR separation of you from known traffic.

mad_jock
23rd Feb 2011, 12:20
I don't know I have done a GA at MAN off a visual, And it was because Air France didn't clear the runway in time when crossing. Tower gave the GA instructions with the instruction to GA. And I might add they were different to the published missed approach for 23R