Express Freighters Australia (EFA) thread

[sof2011]

Photos: Boeing 767-381F/ER Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Qantas-Freight-(Express/Boeing-767-381F-ER/1865256/L/)

Please follow the link above for reference on what this thread is about.

Not sure why the previous thread on this issue got deleted as the loss of this flying is a pertinent issue and a great example of the reason for the Long Haul pilots log of claims.

Here is what I wrote previously on the matter:

Again, this is why job security is so important and why the Qantas pilots claim is about job security and job security only.

A while back mainline pilots flew freight on the 767 to and within New Zealand on Qantas 767s. This was then contracted out to ATI and now is been undertaken by EFA using a 767 linked above by boeingwest displaying Qantas on its livery.

This is a transfer of business and as such is part of the claim to keep our jobs and keep this flying.

It is imperative that we keep our jobs and this freight flying is part of it. It beggars belief that the company is paying pilots on the 767 to sit around doing less than 50% of what they could be doing while they employ new pilots to do the same jobs. Even at the reported reduced cost of the new pilots the overall cost is more. It doesn’t make any sense and is fiscally irresponsible. By management continuing to push such ludicrous accounting practises it is continuing to push Qf International into the ground. Something the employees and the public must not let happen. It is up to the pilots to lead the way and ‘stop the rot’ as they are doing. How on earth can management call the pilots inefficient if they don’t work them when there is work to be done?!

The catalyst to return the freighter flying (including the rumored 747-400), which is part of Qantas, to the Qantas pilots is included in the Job Security clause being fought for by AIPA. The clause ‘uses a flight number that contains an IATA airline designator assigned to the company’ and/or ‘undertaken by aircraft that display on its livery the word ‘Qantas’ ’ covers this flying of freight. It was also confirmed verbally by the negotiating team at the meeting in Sydney that the Job Security clause covers freighter flying.

It is imperative that AIPA continue to fight for this cause as well as the others in the Job Security provisions.


To add to these thoughts, I see today that Qantas has made an underlying profit before tax was $417 million, up 56 per cent from $267 million in the first half of 2009/10. To quote the newspaper “underlying profit before tax - the company's preferred measure of financial performance”.

From a pilots perspective, which is only a small fraction of the airline:
This has happened with unsuitable aircraft on most routes.
This has happened with pilots on the long haul award.
This has happened whilst they have had pilots sitting around doing nothing but being paid in full whilst they employ more pilots to do the same job.
This has happened with (on some fleets) a 16% engagement level.

THINK MANAGEMENT WHAT COULD BE ACCOMPLISHED WITH:
Correct aircraft flying the correct and in demand routes (yes that may mean expansion on the Qantas brand), being flown by engaged pilots flying their quota of 900 hours a year rather than the 400-500 a lot are on.
I honestly believe that is what the pilots want: a profitable, strong airline that we are all proud to be a part of.
It can happen but this current rot (EFA, Jetconnect, offshore bases, transfer of buisness etc) must stop and we must all work together-this where the real money will be made... Good luck folks

[sof2011]

don't think this ever appeared on DG RP :uhoh:

[Popgun]

Hearing lots of rumours that this operation is a go:

Qantas mulls buying 747 freighters (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-mulls-buying-747-freighters-20130306-2flng.html)

Any insiders with info on a likely start date for the first aircraft?

Is 4 airframes the plan?

PG

[Dargonfly]

Looks like 2 -400 freighters for sure. D checks getting organised. Start date, best guestimate 3-4 months.

[PireausBlue]

Any more info on 2x747F's
Where from, likely crew pool?
Anything else?.
PB

[Terrey]

Deal done. Crewing to be covered by excess mainline 400 crew. Cheaper for the group to use assets that are otherwise sitting idle. Someone has finally seen the light.

[Keg]

What's the saying again?

When I see them pushing back from the terminal on their first revenue service with mainline crews at the controls then I may start to believe it. Until that time...... :suspect:

[IsDon]

Deal done. Crewing to be covered by excess mainline 400 crew. Cheaper for the group to use assets that are otherwise sitting idle. Someone has finally seen the light.

What was that famous quote from "Top Gun"... "BULLSHIVPFT".

It's a wind up Keg. No way this outfit would make a decision that actually made sense.

[Silverado]

Looks like 2 -400 freighters for sure. D checks getting organised. Start date, best guestimate 3-4 months.


Wouldn't be these two would it?

747-4EVF (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Boeing-747-4EVF-ER-SCD/2222751/L/&sid=6192a033cebae7eff7b980c7c5139ed9)

747-4EVF (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Southern-Air/Boeing-747-4EVF-ER-SCD/2226414/L/&sid=973958a3a2568a3ab7482fec6bab225a)

[Keg]

Never a 'like' button around when you need it! :ok: :}

[newsensation]

I understand EFA are already hiring for the 747 freighter

[astroboy55]

I understand EFA are already hiring for the 747 freighter

If thats the case, makes it even harder for QF to prove 'genuine redundancy' should the need arise

[PireausBlue]

Any ideas/ factual knowledge of who is being interviewed or considered.
Does anyone know a start date for the opn at all.

[Normasars]

Well if they are hiring now, sure as shyte shoots down the mainline pilot surplus and them flying it doesn't it!!!!!

[pull-up-terrain]

I'm interested to know where these rumours are coming from, because no one in engineering knows anything about these 744f's, because just from experience with the 767 freighters we knew about them for a while before they arrived and there was a lot of training and technical support required for the 767 freighter before it arrived and I can't see it being any different for the 744f. If the rumour is true, I would be very surprised if they arrived before the end of this year.

[OneDotLow]

astroboy said re EFA already hiring :

If thats the case, makes it even harder for QF to prove 'genuine redundancy' should the need arise

QF Chief Pilot (Intl) said yesterday that they don't see a need for any redundancies (compulsory or voluntary) in the foreseeable future (the flying plan is for the next 3yrs).

[Mstr Caution]

One dot low.

The same day the QF Intl CP says no redundancies over the next 3 years a notice comes out for FO slots for Mainline guys in Jetstar.

What's the likelihood an SO would consider a transfer to JQ after reading the CP's blog.

[spelling_nazi]

David Brent: I gave a speech only this morning to my staff assuring them that there would not be cutbacks at this branch and there certainly wouldn't be redundancies, so...
Jennifer Taylor-Clark: Well, why on Earth would you do that?
David Brent: Why? Oh, don't know. A little word I think's important in management called morale.
Jennifer Taylor-Clark: Well, surely it's going to be worse for morale in the long run when there ARE redundancies and you've told people that there won't be.
[pause]
David Brent: They won't remember.

[Silverado]

I'm interested to know where these rumours are coming from, because no one in engineering knows anything about these 744f's, because just from experience with the 767 freighters we knew about them for a while before they arrived and there was a lot of training and technical support required for the 767 freighter before it arrived and I can't see it being any different for the 744f. If the rumour is true, I would be very surprised if they arrived before the end of this year.

EFA have put a tender in for the Contract of 2 freighters (Contract for 2 of the atlas freighters expires next year) ,which was due to be decided about now.

QF engineers whilst retiring a 744 in VCV last year were asked to inspect 2 744ERF's. They are very new build aircraft and have spent most of their lives in storage.

[griffin one]

Think you might find this is all a smoke screen.
Atlas contract up for renewal,Atlas wants more money,Q looks at two freighters to put the wind up Atlas.
Atlas reduces contract cost
Just business one O one

[Keg]

My sources indicate there is more to this one than simply working Atlas for a cheaper quote. Engineering support being seriously looked at for two 744 ERFs.

[Transition Layer]

Master Caution,

Off topic (sorry):

I agree, why would any S/Os consider those new F/O positions with JQ? A pre-Nov 2004 DoJ would just about have the seniority for a MEL 737 F/O spot (if not already) and close to SYD 737 F/O.

Unfortunately the nature of the MoU is such that it doesn't help those who need it most...those who joined 2007 onwards and can't get a mainline F/O gig (even Perth). :(

[4 Holer]

I advised way back it's the two ex Great Wall China Freighters which are near new parked at Victorville CA USA ! One is in Southern California Hangar where QF has offices and store their QF 7x 747/4 and 3x 737/4.The other is pulled up to the Hangar ?
I think QF only thought about getting freighters because they went past them daily to get to their stored aircraft in Victorville and someone's lite bulb came on.

[Popgun]

So will EFA be crewing the operation by:

Utilising QF B744 crew on the current QF long-haul EBA conditions;

Utilising QF B744 crew on LWOP from QF on the current EFA EBA conditions;

Hiring new B744 experienced crew;

or some other plan?

PG

[C441]

Utilising QF B744 crew on the current QF long-haul EBA conditions;
No.

Utilising QF B744 crew on LWOP from QF on the current EFA EBA conditions;
Unlikely...but a slight possibility in order to alleviate excess crew resources on the 744.

Hiring new B744 experienced crew;
Almost certainly, with positions being advertised externally and current Qantas crew required to resign from their current position to take up an EFA position.

[What The]

And the numpties wonder why they can't engage their pilots.

[DirectAnywhere]

And the numpties wonder why they can't engage their pilots.

Do you seriously think they give a **** anyway?

The 400 Fleet Manager is doing the latest delivery to the desert (OJJ) for 'operational reasons'. Not sure if he's planning a quick once over on a couple of second hand ER-Fs while he's up there.

[Silverado]

Qantas Updates Freighter Aircraft (http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-updates-freighter-aircraft)

So only one aircraft?

The contract up for renewal was for two aircraft.

[Popgun]

So only one aircraft?

The contract up for renewal was for two aircraft.

Hedging their bets maybe by taking some work in-house to EFA and keeping some outsourced with Atlas?

[halas]

Emirates Skycargo maybe? :cool:

halas

[Popgun]

According to AIPA:

Qantas freight, as you are no doubt aware, recently purchased a 747 freighter. Rather than use crews who are already trained and that are currently on forced leave, AIPA has been informed that Qantas freight is currently on a recruitment drive in the Middle East for 747 freighter pilots

Has anyone seen any advertisements anywhere?

PG

[busdriver007]

A team is in the Middle-East right now sourcing 10 crews and also in Hong Kong...don't need to advertise!:ok:

[Keg]

Anyone know the terms and conditions they're offering? One version I heard was that it was the same as the EFA 767. $180K for a 744 captain doing 12-14 days trips.

[Popgun]

The EFA EBA doesn't specify wide body types.

Unless a side LOA was negotiated to fly the B744, the following base pay (same as B767) would apply:

CA: 170K

FO: 110K

PG

[Skystar320]

sorry is this a windup? There are plenty of 744 crew here in Australia, where the aircraft will be based, yet they are looking overseas for crew?

[Keg]

Blimey. $170K for a 744 command on 14 day trips. Shove that! Of course, no doubt they'll find someone to take it on.... just as they found people to fly the 767 for that coin. :ugh:

[busdriver007]

That's what several CX drivers said as well...special contracts maybe?

[goodonyamate]

So the EFA crew dont get first look? Disgusting!!!:mad:

I have a red tie, worn well and stored safely if any EFA crew want it...:cool:

[Silverado]

This is the bird QF have leased, that EFA will operate. VH-EQF

747-4HQF (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Boeing-747-4HQ-ER/2226238/L/&sid=14baece87e078e8347b257dfe19a6ebf)

[Going Boeing]

Very low hours - built in 2009 and been in storage most of its life. Apparently, it's got quite advanced avionics and cargo handling system.

It's disgusting that they are seeking crews offshore when there are a lot of B744 crews in Australia who would be happy to fly it.

[Angle of Attack]

Yes but if the rumours are true, would they be happy to fly it on 170k? Hell you'd make more coin in Tiger!! It could only appeal to expats wanting to return to Oz but even that sounds like an Oxymoron because you'll spend all your time away on mega long 2 week trips... Hmmmm.

[OhForSure]

EFA is not going to make you rich, but it is a lifestyle job. The guys on the 737 aren't even hitting 500hrs this year with a MINIMUM 3 day weekend EVERY weekend. The 767 guys don't do much more than 500hrs per year (2 days per week) and the 744 guys are forecast to do less than 500hrs per year.

Sure, you'll make more money at other airlines, but you'll work nearly twice as hard.

Each to their own. Some chase money, others chase lifestyle.

And yes, the 744ERF has 30hrs odd total time and plastic on the seats. Never flown a single commercial sector. It is BRAND NEW, but 3 1/2 years old.

[Wunwing]

I suspect that the B747 ops would be a little more demanding time wise than 737/767 domestic.In this operation the aircraft will be in direct competition to the likes of Atlas etc.Trans-Pacific ops would run to 14 hours + tours.

The interesting item is how many crew and the complement. Will they have S/Os for crew limitation extension or slip somewhere in the Pacific and maybe Anchorage or will they go for the extended range operation?

Slip places and periods will also be dictated by where the aircraft is maintained so it may be that there are long standowns away from home. A single aircraft operation also may dictate long slips overseas.How does the award cover that? Are you to be paid for long slips away from home and what are the allowances? Are you to be paid via credited hours or stick hours? What are the standards for hotels and do you get an individual room? What is provided for medical needs? These items are a lot more important when you are out of Australia for long periods as is a decent bidding system which becomes very important with long flying patterns.

This is a very different beast to PER/SYD and the award conditions need to reflect that difference.

Wunwing

[Going Boeing]

Good speculation, Wunwing. Another factor to consider is what range that aircraft will have with loads that are significantly heavier than the passenger equivalent. this aircraft is an ER but I don't know if it is certified to the same MBRW as the pax aircraft (412.7t). The Atlas B747-400F aircraft have a MBRW of 394.6t whereas the pax aircraft operate up to 397.2 (I believe that is because of loading limitations to stay within CofG limits) and there is no tail fuel tank fitted to those aircraft (I don't know about the ERF). So with higher payloads, reduced fuel capacity & reduced MBRW, the tours of duty may be less.

[illusion]

One thing is for sure...they will not have flight attendants on them :cool:

[Wunwing]

Illusion.

I can't see anywhere where cabin service is mentioned so I hope your refence to it is just a "throw away" line.

However if your reference is to my comments on necessary contract provisions for long haul flying and you doubt the need for those provisions for longhaul flying, then I can only assume you have no experience of ultra long haul operations or that you are management.

One thing that I didn't mention in my earlier post is conditions for duty travel.Any long haul single aircraft ops will have a large amount of that. You don't want to be in a position of doing a 14 hour duty and then pax for the next 24 hours back to main base, economy class with no paxing credits. In fact even with paxing credits you dont want to be in that position.

To survive long haul multi sector flying there always needs to be a much more rigorous contract process than short haul overnight trips. To think anything else is a trifle naive


Wunwing

[OhForSure]

Wunwing:
You make some good points, I have no idea how EFA will handle those issues, I would assume they're looking at that now. I've just passed along what I've been told by an extremely reliable source first hand.

No 744 freighter can make transpacific unless about 70% full, which I can assure you is not the case with these trips. They are always scheduled to slip in Honolulu. I understand the intention is to run PVG-ORD/JFK during the quieter months of the year, thus eliminating the ANC stop. But ANC will still be required quite often.

No S/Os, just extra F/Os or Capts on sectors that require 3 crew. And obviously with just the one aircraft initially, you would imagine crewing it would be a nightmare. Lots of paxing. It will get better if/when the other two come along.

It'll be interesting to see how EFA handle it. Good luck to all involved.

[Alien Role]

Goodonyamate - Evidently the EFA crew do get first bite of the cherry, but susposedly only a couple are 747 endorsed and the F/O's are all relatively low time jet experienced.
Considering the complexities of the operation, it would seem prudent to hire externally, very experienced, 747 long haul crew.

Going Boeing - indeed, why are the very experienced, surplus Qantas Mainline crew not being used?? I think we all know the answer to that - like not wanting possible members of AIPA "contaminating" the EFA operation, and the solution to that would be for all EFA crew becoming members !!
AND that could overcome the questions posed by Wunwing, of having a workable contract to cover the operation.

Role on....

[Di_Vosh]

like not wanting possible members of AIPA "contaminating" the EFA operation,

From what I've heard from a friend of mine who's an FO there, AIPA represent a large number of EFA pilots.

[3 Holer]

It's a great gig. Not only every weekend off but public holidays as well. Every week day to do what you want, no traffic on the road going to and from work and short sectors when you are at work!

Do they actually pay you EFA guys to do that job ?

[illusion]

Wunwing,
By your comment, I assume you are suggesting that cabincrew should be a necessary part of long haul FREIGHTER flying.

If so...discuss further. If not, forgive me for casting aspersions on your character.

[Wunwing]

illusion.

I am totally mystified by your comments on cabin staff for freighters.
Where have I or anyone else (except you) suggested that subject?

Just because as a result of a lifetime of longhaul experience I think that this op needs a decent contract, does not mean that I think it needs a ridiculous contract.



Wunwing

[60 & bellows]

"Do they actually pay you EFA guys to do that job ?"

Fool :ugh:
A place for the young, naive & has-beens.

:{:}:mad:

[Wizofoz]

& has-beens.


Great!

Looks like I have a shot then!!

[EFAFO]

Well......well......well.

Looks like everyone is an expert! I know that this is a rumour network but most of what has been posted is nonsense!

I just had to sign up and have my say.

"A place for the young, naive & has-beens" I'm young, so I must be one of the naive ones !

As I am naive, can some of you older ppruners give me a history lesson please.....

how did Atlas get the freighter work in the first place?

did the QF group look at doing it originally?

did the QF pilot group and the union oppose it?

and what about the Cobham 146's ?? Cobham (like Atlas) is not an Australian company either? is it?

did the QF group look at doing it originally?

did the QF pilot group and the union oppose it?

Oh I have so many questions, seeing we are looking at QF group work....what about these additional 717's that Mr. Joyce announced and possibly going to Cobham ?

did the QF group look at doing it originally?

did the QF pilot group and the union oppose it?

Look I may have just reasoned some of this out myself!! as to why everyone is so excited.

Let me see hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

It wouldn't be that it's a 747 would it!

:ok: (ps: that's the Qantas thumbs up :D

Again it may be another silly question but why don't you QF guys (and your union) worry bout something important like that little company called Jetstar who seem to be taking your flying, your new aircraft and employing pilots off the street?

[Buttscratcher]

Mmmm..... saw this a few days ago.
Qantas mulls buying 747 freighters (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-mulls-buying-747-freighters-20130306-2flng.html)

[C441]

Qantas through its subsidiary Express Freighters Australia and Sydney-based Skyforce Aviation have applied to the IASC for a total of 53 tonnes of freight capacity per week each way on the Australia-Papua New Guinea route. A total of 77.5 tonnes capacity per week in each direction is currently available under the bilateral air services agreement between the countries which allows for a total of 100 tonnes per week.

The full article. (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/air-freight-opportunities-in-papua-new-guinea-attract-qantas-and-skyforce-as-economic-boom-unfolds-109701?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

[galdian]

WIZ

Must say bit surprised - I'd consider you more a "still is" rather than a "has been".

....OR is the oasis at the end of your long, long desert trek shimmering into view as...


SYDENEY!!! (to quote a famous IOC boss!)

The home of everything QANTAS....(and a few other things as well but they're minor so who gives a f**K about anything else!)

Still love the fact it's the Japanese controllers who sum up QF so accurately and succinctly....in one - yes one - word! :ok:

Cheers all.

[Wunwing]

EFAFO
Why is what I posted nonsense?

What do you know about ultra long haul ops?

If you do know anything from your vast long haul flying experience you can attempt to refute what I have said.

Again I say what works domestically in Australian is not the same beast that the proposed B747 is. Do you think that its OK to fly for 16+ hours and then pax for the next 24 hours to get home? That is certainly what has happened in the past with some of the wet lease freighters that operated to and from Australia.

Have you read up on the history of this subject going back to just after
WW2?

Do you know about the domestic and international history of this and how we arrived at this point? Do you know about some of the shadowy operators that moved our international and sometimes domestic freight?

If you do then you will know why the proposed B747 op is a big deal? If you don't then before you comment further do some research. Perhaps look at the various AIPA submissions to the Productivity Commission and Parliamentary enquiries.Ask some of the long haul pilots and look back at some of the pprune threads on the subject.

Wunwing

[Alien Role]

EFAFO; case proven - young, naive, ill-informed, inexperienced....

Role on....

[Buttscratcher]

EFAFO, I think you're missing the point

Rather than use crews who are already trained and that are currently on forced leave, Qantas freight dept. is apparently on a recruitment drive in the Middle East for 747 freighter pilots.

If in fact it is, why would any executive want to employ more pilots when they have a surplus of trained pilots that can do the work immediately?

It would appear that only an industrial agenda could explain why trained and surplus pilots are not afforded this work, even for a short period.

This says a lot about how Qantas pilots are actually valued by senior management.

[Capt Claret]

Whilst not privy to any inside information it wouldn't be a huge leap of faith to presume there's a considerable disconnect between the pay scales of QF Mainline 744 crew and what EFA pay scales are.

So the real question is not why doesn't QF use their own already employed pilots, but, would their already employed pilots be prepared to do the job for what EFA is prepared to pay?

[The Professor]

Or maybe the real question should be "why on earth would QF subject themselves to the extremely high cost of mainline labor costs when they can obtain crew at a considerable savings....."

There are VERY FEW if any cargo planes out there being flown by crew on legacy wages.

QF must compete!

[bddbism]

Jet connect, EFA, and to a lesser extent EAA/SSA, Cobham, Altas and Alliance all operating under a QF call sign. Outsourcing is certainly nothing new for qantas and clearly very cost effective. It's just such a shame they spend so much time trying to dismantle their workforce - which one could argue paradoxically diminishes the brand, rather than focusing on ideas that actually enhance it

[Tankengine]

All you guys harping on about pay rates are missing the point that Qantas is paying their mainline 744 crews anyway!:ugh:
At min hours at the moment they could probably fly the freighter for free.:hmm:

[Shark Patrol]

All you guys harping on about pay rates are missing the point that Qantas is paying their mainline 744 crews anyway!
At min hours at the moment they could probably fly the freighter for free.

Tankengine,

Couldn't agree more. The geniuses here, including The Professor, fail to see that with so much enforced leave at the moment and the crews who are flying are on the minimum divisor, I'm sure that a Letter of Agreement could be thrashed out between AIPA and the Company to crew these aircraft very quickly at minimum cost.

It might even result in some reduction in the assignment of leave, some extra flying for those who aren't doing much now and some increased Engagement levels.

But what am I thinking?? This is Qantas - who hold their pilots in such high regard! :yuk:

[OneDotLow]

Whilst I disagree with recruiting pilots to fly these aircraft, whilst there are underutilised type rated pilots within the group, the idea that it could be "flown for free" is not entirely correct.

Once QF have no more leave left to assign in those ranks, and are paying pilots min guarantee to fly a divisor less than min guarantee, only then will it be "for free". QF are currently reducing a future cost from the liability side of the balance sheet by forcing pilots onto leave. It's the same reason that they have not, and in the forseeable future, will not be offering redundancies.

[hotnhigh]

Once QF have no more leave left to assign in those ranks

Because it would be horrendous business sense to have pilots actually flying around. Alan would have to grow the business.

[Wunwing]

The problem of rates of pay for the B747 freighter is a complex one.

Just because the Qantas crews are paid a different scale is not necessarily relevant.The final cost of crews is a result of many things including actual rate of pay,efficient utilisation of crew and aircraft,accomodation costs, allowances and duty travel (pay and costs).

At this stage there appears to be only one B747 being discussed here. If it is an "orphan" project then there will be a lot of long slip times in international ports with the resulting hotels,meals and allowances or there will be a lot of downtime on the aircraft. Neither option is very efficient unless costs are very low for either option or both options. So if it is possible to integrate the freighter crews into the QF B747 pax ops, then the end cost may be actually less, even if the crews may be full QF award pay and conditions.

Similarly using the QF hotels etc may be cheaper because of the bulk purchasing that results even thoughthe standard of hotels is higher than the normal for freighter crews.

However if there is a plan for more aircraft and from the work I did on this in the late 90s, that would be at least 3 for efficient ops, then this matrix changes substantially towards favouring a self sufficient lower cost operation.

The other unknown is what happens to the US CRAF wet lease outfits when the Afghanistan withdrawal is completed. Will they go back to their old ways with cheap charters or will they go away quietly. Again a lot of that is unknown as their low rates in the past have depended on endorsed crews being out of work/furloughed from the majors and continued behind the scenes support from a now financially challenged US Government.

And finally, not all freighter crews are on low pay. Fedex, UPS etc seem to do pretty well when stacked up against US pax ops. They pay high wages but manage the entire operation very efficiently so the end result is financially acceptable to all parties.

Wunwing

[The Professor]

"Fedex, UPS etc seem to do pretty well when stacked up against US pax ops"

They do, but they are in a very different business than QF Cargo will be. Small package freight is a network competing with traditional postal services. QF cargo 744's will be competing with Kalitta, Evergreen, Southern Air etc.

These companies have radically different cost structures than legacy pax carriers such as QF.

[Jackneville]

I agree with Tankengine, this (these) freighter(s) could be crewed for free.......free at least in comparison to EFA employing their own 747 crews.......how ? unless I'm missing the obvious there is a very large number of mainline 747 crews who are surplus to requirements....and this number is only going to grow. Currently they are being paid divisor pay at 160 credit hours for NOT flying. There are enough of them to crew 5 or more freighters. If they were to crew this gig , EFA would not need to employ a single 747 pilot....so in that respect EFA would get their crews for free.

From a 'group' perspective employing any additional 747
pilots seems .........strange, how does the 'group' benefit ?

[EFAFO]

Can someone please provide a link to the EFA / QF Freight advert in the Middle East for freighter crews.

Thanks

[Wunwing]

The only explanation for the whole project is long term.So if the B747F ops is to survive it will have to be at least 3 aircraft.The problem in using underutilised QF crews for the current 1 off is precedent. When/if the business becomes sustainable industrially, the work will be seen by Fairwork as QF mainline. Something that is possibly not in the QF overall plan.

As I said earlier, the whole project hinges on how the US wet lease outfits and the US Govt react when Afghanistan is finished.For those who doubt this google the names of some of the well known secondary carriers who worked into and out of Australia up to recently.Some have very interesting histories.

There is no doubt in my mind that the presence of these outfits prevented QF from operating its own freighters since the 80s and they may do so again and negate any advantage that QF may get by operating their own aircraft.

If any of you are AIPA members, ask to look at the airfreight files from the mid 90s.If they still exist they should be very educational.

Wunwing

[EFAFO]

EFA has some 8 Captains with long-haul / 747 experience, that's just about enough to crew one aircraft.

How should existing EFA Captains be looked after if surplus QF 747 crews are to be utilised?

[AnQrKa]

"The only explanation for the whole project is long term"

It sure is.

[Keg]

How should existing EFA Captains be looked after if surplus QF 747 crews are to be utilised?

EFA isn't shrinking is it? How will they be looked after? They'll keep being the Captain they presumably already are.

The reality is that EFA employing crew coststhe group in the short to medium term because they're employing more pilots (and therefore more $$$ onto the bottom line) when they don't need to. From the group perspective, it would be cheaper for QF to take the money off EFA that they were going to pay their 744 drivers and simply 'top up' the difference to the QF rates. That's a much cheaper option than paying QF pilots to not fly (or fly less than optimal hours) whilst employing more people from outside the group.

Sure they'll be able to assign less leave in the short term but imagine what it could do for engagement.

[Buttscratcher]

Sure Keg, you're right of course.....
But these shows are driven by accountants, therefore general logic and common sense does not apply.

[Wunwing]

AnQrKa.
How about quoting the rest of the para as well?The whole para says that to survive long term they will need at least 3 aircraft. Therefore there is some sense in not exposing the operation to a claim of "ownership " from the QF long haul pilots. I'm not saying that I agree with the concept but I can see where they may be coming from.

I doubt if anyone even in QF fully knows how this will play out unless they have a pretty good informer in the inner ranks of the US Government.

Wunwing

[blanikman]

Hi all,

I know this is a very old thread, but could anyone provide a recent example of a roster and realistic idea of progression prospects at EFA? They are currently hiring and I have found minimal information elsewhere.

Blanikman

[Ducksbum]

Hi all,

I know this is a very old thread, but could anyone provide a recent example of a roster and realistic idea of progression prospects at EFA? They are currently hiring and I have found minimal information elsewhere.

Blanikman

+1 I’m interested too....

[74world]

me 2, that makes 3 of us so far..... :))

[iatethemacaroni]

Make that four, especially curious about the 767 roster.

[Raropilot]

And now 5.. :O

[davidclarke]

Make it 6.
What doesn’t anyone work for efa?

[mince]

Make it 6.
What doesn’t anyone work for efa?

Plenty do, but can’t afford the data to reply......

[j3pipercub]

How many of you are willing to join as effos?

[davidclarke]

How many of you are willing to join as effos?

As far as I’m aware they are only recruiting for FOs so I would imagine everyone that is applying.

[ResumeOwnNav]

Is the 2014 EBA the current agreement?

[blanikman]

They are Neg a new EBA now.
Good gig, Average pay scales, but great considering hours worked.
Quick progression at moment.
Lots of movement due internal 321 moves

Sydneyman - Yes would join as FO... Have you potentially got an example of a typical week/month?

[romeocharlie]

Everyone starts as an FO on the 73. There has at times been exceptions of direct entry onto the 76 in times of expansion/mainline recruiting etc, however those days are gone. They recruit from the 73 to the 76, currently have plenty of takers, and are not expecting any movement on that fleet for a while, so expect anywhere from 1-3 years waiting to move. Having said that, this is aviation and who knows what is planned. The award is available from the fair work website regarding pay, and as above has been in negotiation for the better part of over a year.

73 - you can expect 3-4 nights per week, weekends mostly off with exception of doing a 'Cairns weekend,' where at times of the year you'll be on standby/doing day charters, and other times enjoying cold beers at the Pier.

76 - the operation is 6 days a week plus charters, so expect to work either a Hong Kong over the weekend (3 day trip) or 1-2 Tasman trips per week with plenty of time off. Time to command is currently sitting around 4-5 years with the progression 'generally' to the left of the 73 from both fleets first. Could all change when the 321's arrive, but I'm assuming it will be offered to current crew first.

There is no seniority, it is a performance based airline and both fleets are doing around 60hrs/month. Like any smaller company, you get to know everyone pretty well and they're a great bunch of people to work with - I was genuinely sad to leave. Hope this clears up a few things.

RC

[74world]

Hi RC, thanks for the really good info on EFA :ok:

[blanikman]

Thanks very much romeocharlie, sounds like a very sustainable lifestyle. :ok:

[Swept-Wing]

I’ll make some corrections to this, in bold.

Everyone starts as an FO on the 73. There has at times been exceptions of direct entry onto the 76 in times of expansion/mainline recruiting etc, however those days are gone. They recruit from the 73 to the 76, currently have plenty of takers, and are not expecting any movement on that fleet for a while, so expect anywhere from 1-3 years waiting to move. Having said that, this is aviation and who knows what is planned. The award is available from the fair work website regarding pay, and as above has been in negotiation for the better part of over a year.

73 - you can expect 3-4 nights per week, weekends mostly off with exception of doing a 'Cairns weekend,' where at times of the year you'll be on standby/doing day charters, and other times enjoying cold beers at the Pier.

2-3 nights is more accurate. You might see one 4 night week a roster.
standby/ day charters are highly rare on cairns weekends. 99% of the time it’s cold beers at the pier

76 - the operation is 6 days a week plus charters, so expect to work either a Hong Kong over the weekend (3 day trip) or 1-2 Tasman trips per week with plenty of time off. Time to command is currently sitting around 4-5 years with the progression 'generally' to the left of the 73 from both fleets first. Could all change when the 321's arrive, but I'm assuming it will be offered to current crew first.

737 command is around 3-4 years

There is no seniority, it is a performance based airline and both fleets are doing around 60hrs/month. Like any smaller company, you get to know everyone pretty well and they're a great bunch of people to work with - I was genuinely sad to leave. Hope this clears up a few things.

737 is average 40hrs a month, sometimes as low as 30. It’s extremely rare to be above 55

RC

SW

[blanikman]

Thanks SW.

That sounds even better! Anyone know if staff travel extends to the whole Qantas group or is this expecting too much?

[Swept-Wing]

Thanks SW.

That sounds even better! Anyone know if staff travel extends to the whole Qantas group or is this expecting too much?

Full, unrestricted Qantas staff travel.

[74world]

Is the QF staff travel benefits the same as for COBHAM (operating for QLINK)?
Ie. You are eligible while you are there, but NOT after retirement...

[Swept-Wing]

Is the QF staff travel benefits the same as for COBHAM (operating for QLINK)?
Ie. You are eligible while you are there, but NOT after retirement...

No, it’s nothing like the deal cobham are on.
As mentioned, full QF group staff travel.

[Dewa_Gede_70]

Didn’t get pass the psych test 😂

15,000 hrs plus
8000 jet
6000 737
2000 A330
5000 command

i must be really stupid 😂😂

Good luck to the youngsters

[aviator777]

Yep, that sums up the industry today. If you can't decide which statement is "true", "false" or "cant tell" about a verbose convoluted passage, how can you possibly pass a type rating or work within an airline structure! Oh but wait, you did and or do!!! So many people fall through the cracks based on a theoretical model of assessment.

Been there, heard the arguments that the selection process is an indicator of ability to pass a type rating. Yet Dewa_Gede_70 and others have or can.

Sad state of affairs.

[Dewa_Gede_70]

Couldn’t agree more...Unfortunately that’s the way they do things these days, arguments for and against could go on and on 🤔


Yep, that sums up the industry today. If you can't decide which statement is "true", "false" or "cant tell" about a verbose convoluted passage, how can you possibly pass a type rating or work within an airline structure! Oh but wait, you did and or do!!! So many people fall through the cracks based on a theoretical model of assessment.

Been there, heard the arguments that the selection process is an indicator of ability to pass a type rating. Yet Dewa_Gede_70 and others have or can.

Sad state of affairs.

[blanikman]

Didn’t get pass the psych test 😂

15,000 hrs plus
8000 jet
6000 737
2000 A330
5000 command

i must be really stupid 😂😂

Good luck to the youngsters

Any chance you would be happy to share what company ran the psychometric testing?

[Ladloy]

Any chance you would be happy to share what company ran the psychometric testing?
SHL. I'm still "In progress". I heard some were asked for an interview very soon after completing it but a lot are still waiting.

[Dewa_Gede_70]

SHL ran the testing..



Any chance you would be happy to share what company ran the psychometric testing?

[Swept-Wing]

EFA is Qantas’ smallest subsidiary, however has been the most popular by far in recent recruitment, receiving hundreds of applications for very few positions.

No one likes rejection, I know, however it’s an extremely competitive market. Keep on keeping on!

Best of luck.


SW

[Islandhopper787]

Has anyone completed the process yet? Everything was completed very quickly and now no response since medical questionnaire.

[Climb150]

A medical questionnaire for a job that requires a class 1 medical?
Someone will have to explain that to me.

[galdian]

Contact the HR department.

Sure they'll be able to fully explain to your complete satisfaction! :}

[Wehavewings]

Does anyone know if EFA start paying pilots from sign up or not until after you are type rated? Where will the A320 ratings be delivered ? AUS or overseas?

[Swept-Wing]

Does anyone know if EFA start paying pilots from sign up or not until after you are type rated? Where will the A320 ratings be delivered ? AUS or overseas?

As it currently stands, EFA only employ type rated pilots. They will facilitate the type rating, however this means is you aren’t employed and payment wont commence until the type rating is complete.

Initial A320 type ratings will be delivered in the UK.

[Rated De]

EFA is Qantas’ smallest subsidiary, however has been the most popular by far in recent recruitment, receiving hundreds of applications for very few positions.

In the interest of balance, would you please quantify that statement?

Globally there remains an acute structural shortage.
Regionally, the shortage is more acute than in others.

[AerialPerspective]

A medical questionnaire for a job that requires a class 1 medical?
Someone will have to explain that to me.

I suspect they're trying to ascertain if the applicant has any outstanding WorkCover claims or rehabilitation in process.

[blow.n.gasket]

Or their state of sanity for wanting to apply ?

[ilikecheese]

Or their state of sanity for wanting to apply ?
Do you work for EFA? Care to elaborate?

[Stardoggas]

Does anyone know if there's a hold file currently?

[rambutan]

This thread seems to be a much more positive outlook on life at EFA than the more recent threads - has the introduction of the 330/321 changed things? I'm looking for a more up to date view on a typical roster, expected monthly flying hours, and command times - cheers.

[FrothyFriday]

This thread seems to be a much more positive outlook on life at EFA than the more recent threads - has the introduction of the 330/321 changed things? I'm looking for a more up to date view on a typical roster, expected monthly flying hours, and command times - cheers.


It’s alright. Fly 20-30 hours most months. Sometimes it’s 1-2 nights a week with a standby and an available day or it’s a 4 day trip just depends. Worst part is no roster stability with the company able to change your days off up to 48 hours before without penalty.

[Gnadenburg]

There’s a bunch of people on the hold file for DEC, so unless you know people on the inside or within the QF hiring apparatus, be careful quitting a current job for EFA. They were accepted onto the HF two years ago! I heard there’s some good people there but hey don’t slam me for saying that. Two pilots just left- soon after completing 330 training. I suspect rostering and the cost of Sydney a factor or the fact there’s a massive pilot shortage and opportunities elsewhere. So do check the bond obligations.

[soseg]

If you want to be paid a joke of a wage to fly an a330…

[Swept-Wing]

This thread seems to be a much more positive outlook on life at EFA than the more recent threads - has the introduction of the 330/321 changed things? I'm looking for a more up to date view on a typical roster, expected monthly flying hours, and command times - cheers.

A lot changes in 4 years.
Throw in COVID, a full fleet renewal and new management.
EFA is unrecognisable from the company it was in this thread 4 years ago.