Paying for your rating !!!

[swampthing]

After just being told by a certain individual that "paying for your rating and the privilege to fly for :mad::mad::mad: , is the new way of aviation" and that "us" pilots better get used to it.... I got a brilliant idea!!!!

How about we go with this "new age aviation :mad:" and take it one step further... How about "us" pilots interview "you" companies and take "you" guys for a check ride on "your" own cost to see if "we" even want to spend "our" money with you !!! :ok:

Now that sounds good.... got it out of my system!! :D

[bizjet inmate]

Cant speak for everyone, and there will ALWAYS be some mug with a bottomless pit (ie parents), so therefore dont think this attitude or situation will go away. I was probably 3 years behind some of my collegues getting my break......but at least I didnt pay for it. now some 12 years on still proud to be an employee......not a company "Sponsor"

MY VERY HUMBLE OPINION!

[notlikethat]

There is one company that not only likes people to pay for their own rating but then asks them at the interview if they would be prepared to come in and help paint the office.

Apparently all about being a team player. Umm.

[swampthing]

Do they ask you to pay for the paint as well ? I really would not be surprised if they do.. :ugh:

Bizjet... I am still waiting for my break.. it appears to be... well.. rather illusive !!

[swampthing]

Unfortunately Aeroncaman.. you are so correct... !! unity is what we need.. I sound like a real union worker now.. !! :O But it really gets my hair on end.. it appears that everybody has now climbed onto this :mad: gravy train !! Like i was told.. "if that airline can do it, so can we!" Makes me wanna spit acid !!:ugh:

[INNflight]

There will always be the ones who will gladly sponsor a rating for the right guy, unfortunately they are harder to get by.

It's just about sticking to your guns though, and congrats for doing so, swampthing!

I recently applied for a flt crew job where the application form said: "Are you willing to self-sponsor the TR?"
I ticked no and needless to say didn't hear from them but hey.... not my loss.

While I am low timish and currently work an OPS job as a dispatcher (which I enjoy, and get to stay in touch with a lot of crews downroute aswell) and would gladly get into a flight deck - it's just not AT ANY COST for me.

Keep your head high, it'll be less easy to get spit on that way. :ok:

[FlyTCI]

INNflight, I sure wish there were more people like you out there. Many of our lives would have looked different if there was. I have been in this business for some 13 years now and have proudly resisted any urge to pay for a type myself. I must admit I have thought about it but resisted every time. It took me all these years to get away from props into a jet, but with only six months of flying a Citation X the company wants to make me captain.

I "lost" several years against other friends who went the other route, but I feel I at least have stuck to my guns and that it finally paid off. I'm sure it will do so for you as well. The tide does seem to be turning in the business so keep your chin up and continue to network. Eventually someone will appreciate your "pride" in not paying. :ok:

[DA50driver]

Hi Guys,

If none of us paid for a type rating this problem would disappear. I have made it to a position where I hire pilots and as I have never paid for a type rating (I have 7) I will not hire pilots that have or are willing to pay for the rating.

Pay for training is the cancer of our business. When I arrived at the company I am at they required pilots to sign a 3 year "bond" for their training. I was typed and current, not an issue for me. (I was a contract pilot paying for my own training events, but charging plenty to make it back). When I hired the next pilot they wanted me to "bond" him. I dug my heals in and said "not as long as I am in charge, if you want to do that I will quit". It was a gamble, but I have been there longer than any of the guys that ran the department before me.

With this comes the issue of pilots getting typed and then leaving. This would make me look terrible, so I fight for our pilots every chance I have making sure they are paid appropriately and have a good quality of life. If I treat them right, they will treat me right.

I would like to start a group for pilots that are not "whores". Membership would require things like never having paid for a type rating, not having worked for peanuts, never having referred to the principal as "my owner". (It implies that you are a slave).

We need to be professionals. If we behave like professionals and act like professionals we will be treated as such. Let them step all over you and they will. The aircraft owners are business men, they are usually the ones that are easy to deal with. The problem is when a lawyer or accountant is trying to score brownie points with the principal by beating up the flight crew.

I realize I am a dinosaur in the industry (I am 42), but I wouldn't be in this business for the terms and conditions many are accepting. I am not just interested in flying a shiny jet, I am looking for a return on my investment.

I have never been a union guy, but we need to shun the scum that pays for training.

[Propellerpilot]

The companies that want to suck your personal account for a type rating to fly THEIR aeroplane, are actually the ones that do not have much else to offer and are not usually a pleasure or the better places to work for, there is also very little loyalty to count on.

That is why many guys leave after a short while and are replaced by others, which in turn again pay for the rating - and so the wheel keeps on turning. These companies will never evolve beyond a certain level, because human capital is lost. No investment from their side=no good long term return and the quality of the operation might suffer.

I will personally never pay for a type rating and the system of a training bond of 1-2 years has proven to work well for me in the past and it also worked well for my employers. A company will tend to take more care of employees that they have invested in and whose loyalty they can rely on in turn - a socalled win-win situation.

The more pilots and companies realize this, the better for the industry.

[Davjet]

DA50driver

The points you raised are valid, but what is encountered these days when trying to secure a position doesn't seem to work the way it should as per the principals you stated (and I mean that respectfully).

For example and I'm guessing there are several of us who've experienced the same;

I've always been passionate about flying since a tiny lad, in fact my mother kept pieces of homework from my junior school days describing the life of a Pilot, and that has been my one and only ambition to this day. So in my early 20s I managed to secure a Bank loan to undertake my CPL (FAA) which I completed about 10 years ago. I applied to every company under the sun, whilst taking a permanent job in a seperate industry to pay off my training costs.

After a while all my applications were answered with - "do you have a Type rating?" I wasn't put off when the answer was (no offer) unless I undertook such training, even if I wanted to the Bank would not increase my loan agreement to fulfill this.

I'm now in my mid thirties and still applying almost daily. Nearly every operator I approach wants a Type Rating for the particular aircraft they fly with certain time on type to satisfy mainly the insurers as they say, and none have offered any bond scheme.

Whilst the situation worked out in your favour at that particular time you got your break, the current situation is not the same. I have witnessed numerous colleagues who graduated the same time I did, and who went on to do these self - funded ratings, and they're now either Captains or just turning into one.

In an ideal world your philosophy does make sense, but realistically if requested of me I would probably consider doing a rating. Time is not on my side, and I would potentially like to make a return on my investment.

[galaxy flyer]

Do any UK or EU airlines expect applicants to have ratings? Only SWA in the US, good enough reason not to apply in my view.

As far as bizjet ratings, it is a crap shoot which rating to get, so what is the point unless guaranteed a job if one got the rating. Then, the question has to be, "If they want to hire me, why shouldn't they pay for the training?"

Next, what good is the rating without any experience in the jet? In the US, anyone with a rating and 2 hours in the plane would be laughed out of the office in most reputable operators.

GF

[Propellerpilot]

@galaxy flyer: Bullseye! that is exactly how I see it as well. It is a huge risk of ruining you whole life a type rating with zero hours on type is worth jack. I don't think it is worth it at all, sort of like flushing your annual income straight down the toilet.

[INNflight]

@FlyTCI

Thank you - I appreciate it!

@DA50driver

I admire your point of view - there's few around who get it. If you make your flight department one where people WANT to stick around, the revolving door protection is not needed.

May I respectfully ask to apply at your operation later this year? Ironically I am bonded in my current OPS job :\ - even though it's a great company to work for.

Keep your head up high Davjet, and network the hell out of this industry! :ok:

[swampthing]

@ DA50Driver I Salute you sir !!! We need more people like you on this industry, I am now 38 years old.. unemployed (been made redundant), jet time and willing to relocate to where ever the work is, I already lost my car to the bank, my family is suffering and my house is on the line !!!

But ... oh no no no .. you need a type rating..!! and then if you do seem to get some attention fom a bean counter in some poxy company ... "you need to pay for your type rating"..!!

ok .. well let me see.. I am unemployed.. have no income.. I need to pay for my type rating from money that I get from my dead money tree... and then the type rating is more than the yearly salary they would pay you, which means that those :mad::mad::mad: companies get free labour for about a year and there is some :mad::mad::mad: idiots that will go for it, making life for the rest of us hell !!

companies are in plain and simple terms... "TAKING THE PISS !!! "

:=

[His dudeness]

Over here, in old Europe, there is a certain class of operators that just aim at the inexperienced. They can pair them with equally inexperienced captains and let them pay for all trainings, medicals, typerating, upgrade, partially even for supervision.
If the operator has such crews, they are the ones that are easily forced to do things that others wouldn´t do. Thats why one can see 6 passengers falling out of a CJ after a 1000nm trip with luggage for a 6 month long safari, thats why one can meet a crew that left homebase close to you after 22 hours with 10hrs flying time and no rest in a hotel etcetc.
The common thing is usually: you pay for your rating on the airplane, that generates hours without catering costs for the operator. Then you get promised ample hours either as a freelancer or with a contract. If you have a contract, then you´ll rot away in the office, since you are cheaper than a secretary and - heaven forbid - if there is a guy stuck in traffic, you can replace him quickly. If you are the freelance type, then you are expected to clean the airplane after a 18 hrs day not only inside, but also outside. You spend another 3 hrs doing that. For all of that you get crap money. The only thanks you get, is that you are get probably recalled.

(don´t get me wrong, nothing essentially wrong with cleaning airplanes, thats how I financed my PPL, but not in your rest time after a long flight and the next T/O is already scheduled in the time you´re supposed to sleep)

The crews help these operators to undercut decent operators. The crews do it because they think when they have the experience they can join good operators.

Meeeeep. WRONG!

There won´t be many around after you actively helped to cut them off their business.

I´m with DA50, I won´t hire anyone who does SSTR. I know that there is an increasing number of DOs that develop backbone and try to fight these things. Probably not enough, but maybe eventually it will go in the right direction.

Just for info, all the things I mentioned above, I witnessed. We had an operator at the field I was based, that acted exactly as described. My boss closed down after long years, in which we often lost to this operator, especially flights to brokers (they have great share in this) and new clients. It takes a sometimes a long time, but after 20 years my boss thought its not worth anymore and closed the company. (there were other things involved, but just getting even for 3 years in a row was certainly one of them)

[swampthing]

@ HissDudeness .... Absolutely true !! :ok:

For once I wish I could hand in my C.V. to an operator or Chief pilot in charge and actually get a good response asking for an interview where they will type rate me and bond me for a number of years..... I must admit.. I will most probably pass out !! :eek:

[FlyingGasMain]

This is always very much a 'hot topic' with flight crew. I think DA50driver and Davjet sum up the conflicting arguments very well.

I would like to see more employers / hirers like DA50driver who are prepared to show faith in the crew they employ and pay for their rating, the faith part being that the pilots will stick around and make good the investment made in them.

I see the whole situation as a tension between pilots and companies. The companies have the upper hand right now with this recession and the number of rated pilots around. These times also mean there are those who are downright desperate and will pile more debt on top of existing debt to do a rating and get a job. There may come a time in the next few years when the boot is on the other foot !

I was lucky enough to work in Ops for a company for a year, then get made up to pilot and have my rating paid for. Its an old route, but it does seem to work and I know there are other companies out there who still do this.

I can fully understand people who weigh up the financial pros and cons of paying for a rating and go for it ie. pay for a rating now, but get a job and start earning reasonable money. There are plenty who cant afford to do that though, and the paying brigade encourage the 'let em pay for it' attitude of employers, thus blocking out lots of talented types who cant afford to pay.

My personal advice would be to stick to your guns at least for a year or 2, to see whether you can turn up one of the better employers who will pay for the type rating. As somebody said, you've got to network to the nth degree ! Longer term we should be sticking together as pilots and trying to force a change in attitude from employers.

[what next]

Hello!

I´m with DA50, I won´t hire anyone who does SSTR.Yes, but... like everybody else, you like to hire people with some experience, don't you? And if, in the past, someone had to pay for his first typerating in order to get his first job that allowed him to gain the amount of experience that you like to see in your pilots, would you still not hire him? Honestly, there is not only black or white in the world. Rather "reality" and "dream".

And as "suitcaseman" points out, nothing in this life comes for free: If the operator pays for your typerating, then you have to accept a lower initial salary or some other penalties. Everywhere. Even in your operation I assume. Every airline cadet scheme works that way: They pay for your training, you earn less money - you pay for your training, you earn more money. Rocket science for beginners, so to say.

I am instructing a lot beside flying, and in the past we used to tell our students never to pay for a typerating. But in 2011, advising a young (=200hr) pilot never to pay for a type rating means sentencing him to permanent unemployment. I don't like it either, but I have to face reality.

Happy landings,
Max

NB: I never paid directly for a type rating (two so far) myself and accepted lower intial salaries instead. But with hindsight, it might have been wiser to invest some money in a good rating 20 years ago, because it would have sped-up my career (10 years flying piston twins really didn't help a lot...) and with interest and compound interest I would have a lot more money in the bank now.

NNB (or is it NBB?): Didn't we have this same discussion a dozen times before?

[Davjet]

There are have been some excellent responses to the “paying for a rating” thread which has produced some great for and against statements. In my case I have approached numerous operators mainly part 91 in Europe. Below are just some of the responses I’ve encountered along the way:

· You need a type rating on this particular aircraft to at least be considered.
· The companies insurers won’t approve of taking you on because you do not have a type rating on the aircraft we operate.
· We don’t do a bonding program.
· We recently took someone on with a type rating on the aircraft.
· Go away and maybe get an SIC rating on a popular type to increases your chances, and this may be a cheaper option as opposed to getting a full rating, however by no means are we guaranteeing you a position once obtained. We now have your cv and will be in touch should a position become available.

So as you can see, this is perhaps why some people will consider doing a type rating to make themselves more marketable and to have a chance in getting a foot in the door. Not all of us have wealthy parents as someone commented smartly on here, it’s a risk one is willing to take to make a better life for themselves and pursue their passion. If all heads of flight departments had a similar mindset of say DA50driver then situations like this would not exist.

Another issue not mentioned here is the fact that most operators will only hire based on recommendation from their existing crews or ops people if a position becomes available. So therefore an aspiring Pilot not only has the type rating issue to contend with, but the issue of nepotism in some cases.

My Father once gave a piece of advice on his deathbed – “ Son opportunities don’t come often, so if one doesn't arise then you’ve got to create your own”

[Propellerpilot]

Very interesting thread this.

The whole insurance excuse is a lie, it just costs more. You can insure anything and that has always been proven when there is a pilot shortage: then suddenly everything is possible, just to keep the crafts flying.

Training bond is good. I am happy to work for a lower salary and have a job initially until the bond is paid off and experience on the craft has grown and hours have gone up. That is called a personal investment. But pay upfront for a TR: NEVER! Most GA TR are also just not worth it in the long run for private investment - unless you want to fly a VLJ for the rest of your life.

[His dudeness]

Lets look at it from the other side!
Get to the office early - phone is ringing.
Quote on about 20 charters - will be lucky to get one.
An hour later - not even a nibble - quote again dropping profit margins to $200
Eventually we get one - call crew and dispatch the aircraft to Geneva empty to pick up pax.
Captain phones from Geneva - aircraft has a technical.
Call out standby crew - dispatch second aircraft to Geneva - this is costing me $2000
Another captain calls in sick for tomorrows flight - will have to call out expensive contract pilot.
Broken aircraft in Geneva will take 3 days to repair - crew hotac for three days!!
Interviews today to replace a captain that resigned - cant find type rated crew - a few good low hour pilots that don't want to pay for type rating.
Phone the owner and tell him I need 30K (10 to upgrade an F/O and 20K for new pilot TR)
Owner screams at me down the phone - the business already owes him close to a million - threatens to shut the business and slams the phone down in my ear.
The mail arrives - insurance is going up 10%
I look out the window - the sky is grey.

Suitcaseman, having been in the same situation I understand you perfectly well. And I know, that when it rains it pours...

OTOH, and I know its easy said..., if on can´t make money in a business or looses for quite a while, then its better to get out of business. What we have seen in the past good years, was that everyone that wasn´t up a tree after counting to three got a loan to buy an airplane. And dozens of operators that - apparently - talked people into airplanes that usually not would have bought one. All fine as long as you can keep the wave of costs - that will come one day or another e.g. HSI - IF it breaks right over your head, the company is done. Thats aviation business 1 x 1 so far.

Now, why exactly should I prolong such a shady thing by buing a TR, getting paid as much or rather little as anyone else with no protection from losing my investment. Why exactly should I pay for a rating that came with the airplane and now costs 20000? Why should I pay for my training, when the owner of the airplane would never think about asking his secretary to self fund training on a new software he wishes her to use?
The layout for the typerating should be on the employers side, and that has to become the law, otherwise nothing will change.

In the current situation I would say, okay, a years bond is acceptable. But anything more than that is just.... :ugh:

And as "suitcaseman" points out, nothing in this life comes for free: If the operator pays for your typerating, then you have to accept a lower initial salary or some other penalties. Everywhere. Even in your operation I assume. Every airline cadet scheme works that way: They pay for your training, you earn less money - you pay for your training, you earn more money. Rocket science for beginners, so to say.

Not wrong, but the essential difference to me is where the risk is. If a multimillion dollar aircraft owner has a risk of losing, say, 20k€ then that is FUNDAMENTALLY different to young dude already having 70k€ loans and then investing further. Currently it is way lower pay then it used to pay AND SSTR. if anyone finds this right, or how it should be, then...I´m not with em.

Max, just look to the other operator at your homebase. There you pay for your rating, preferably on their airplanes, checkrides, medicals, all courses such as CRM, FA, FF etc. and on top you earn peanuts. And no guarantee that you fly a lot and therefore the investment at least gives you experience.

[Pilot Positive]

companies are in plain and simple terms... "TAKING THE PISS !!! " :D

Whilst its easy to highlight the difficulties in making money in ANY industry ("oh no we have such big overheads and fuel is expensive and oh look at the insurance costs going up and oh no we have to pay for hotels and eletricity for the office and woe is me as its such hard work with sooo many problems etc etc...") it doesnt seem right that the guy running/owning the business asks his employees to cash flow his business. Put more work in, yes, and even raise the standard required perhaps.

The simple reason is that the guy who owns the business is taking the initial risk by investing in the business in the first place and will therefore reap the reward if all goes to plan... I dont see or hear any operators offering young FOs equity in their business in exchange for them paying for their training. Do you?

If the business guy wants to make money then he needs to know the cost and risk of entering the industry rather than following a policy of risk tranfer without reward transfer. I have seen too many FOs being exploited and losing large sums of cash with little or no return.

And whilst its a cute business move to invent an elaborate P2F scheme to exploit the high number of low houred, young and possibly well funded pilots it continues to undermine and erode the general conditions of the indutsry we work in. :=

Times are achanging and i hope that this kind of practice weakens out and gives way to a system of where merit rather than cash warrants a position.
:ok:

[swampthing]

@ Pilot Positive :ok::ok::ok: :D:D:D Mate.. You are on the Button!!!! I could not agree more !!

[FlyingGasMain]

suitcaseman - I'm not sure you're comparing like for like training. Almost all new pilots looking for a job now have paid themselves for their training up to frozen ATPL. That in itself represents £30,000 to £50,000 (maybe more) before considering living expenses etc. Employers then want you to spend £10,000 - £30,000 more on top of that on a type rating. You are looking at a very large outlay, and that last chunk of money is only going to qualify you on one type of aircraft. I imagine a veterinary qualification is reasonably general and opens up the potential to apply for plenty more jobs than having a type rating on one aircraft.

[moonym20]

The P2F or work for peanuts scenario is simply a vicious circle of attrition.

I'm happy to bet most the gents talking on here have plenty of industry experience behind them, some have probably enjoyed the good ol' days and watched the industry change and crumble around them. It's desperate times for most folk.

You have person 'A' who went with their dreams, paid a fortune, got their tickets and went out in search of that dream job. Most aren't lucky and end up searching for a long, long time. Person A comes up against the same questions "have you got a TR?" "have you got much experience?"... Person A can see the dilemma, how do I get experience if i cant get a job, how can i get a job with low experience.. Whats the next best way to encourage someone to go employ you... How the hell do i pay all these bills?... undercut the current crew, work for peanuts and get the experience. Better yet, to stand out and have a better chance of a job go and get a self-funded TR then when someone is looking for crew they will have a closer look at person A above the other pilot who has no TR and no experience.

The airlines saw they could get away with this when young lads were that desperate to land a job in the right seat they would pay for the lot, accept appalling terms and ask no questions..

It was mentioned before that most companies/departments are feeling the pinch.. so when a person walks through the door, heaps of enthusiasm and making it clear they will happily work for next to nothing and be loyal for giving them a chance, what do you do?

Its a nasty vicious circle, the rot is setting in now. It would be great to ask all the crews, airlines & corporate to close ranks and demand change, but the truth is there are folks out there who are so incredibly desperate to pay bills & land that dream job that they will go to any lengths to make it happen, no matter the cost to themselves or the industry...

Its unlikely to change for quite some time... please remember, trying to find a job right here and right now is worlds apart to how it was 15 years ago... if high time jet jocks are having a tough time finding any manner of work, think of the little guys who are new to the industry, they got no hope.. so how do they manage it?

[cldrvr]

I am with DA50 on this one. I am part of, or associated with, a few recruitment processes in our industry and will always discard any applicant who has a SSTR on his/her CV. Why would I willingly participate in the erosion of our TnC's? Why would I even contemplate hiring a pilot that got his rating on the cheap using standard SOP's who is not trained to the standard that I expect and who falls outside of my supervision and quality control?

Want to buy a job? Go to the locos, plenty there will take your money.

[Propellerpilot]

But exactly that SSTR will eventually stir up a problem, as the experienced older league retires: there will always be the pool of guys who have earned or inherited enough money to sponsor their TR, however it is becoming more and more expensive even to afford an ATP and the industry will be forced to invest in people again - it is just a question of time.

Although common practice with the airlines, I see some GA Bizjet companies are also heading towards funny psychometric testing to find the right candidates these days to minimize the risk of hiring the wrong type of people. If this really produces better pilots is of course questionable. I would however rather still take the chance of going through that selection process and get a ticket for good training and a subsequent TR, than spending all the money out of my own pocket in order to fly with some dubious company with people flying, who don't even belong there, for many possible reasons.

[His dudeness]

I am paying a fortune to put my kids through university, for example to become a vet! Nobody is going to help me pay for my kids qualification and if they don't have it they wont get the job. Most industries will hire the most (or suitably) qualified person. They don't offer to pay for you to get the qualification, you get it before you apply and hope for the best. Why would flying be different!

Well, if one of the kids gets hired, say as an graduate engineer, and it has to work with a CAD programm different from the one they learned and trained in university, any employer that I know would give you that qualification. If the company uses SAP or any other prog, the kid gets training for that.

So I would compare the degree with the CPL/frozen ATP, that is the investment the employee brings with him and the rating is like the CAD course etcetc. Brought into the 'marriage' by the employer.

The real question is, when should it stop, the SSTR? When you have 500 hrs? a 1000? 5000? I´ve got 8000 and a bit hours now and if I were to seek work these days I´d probably be asked to buy a rating.

So when exactly would I get a return on investment? I´ve completed 2 CR´s and 4 TR´s. Thats roughly 120.000-130.000€ worth of training, less the refreshers. After taxes I´d have to spent roughly 3 years working just to repay that - and not spent a cent whilst doing that. So if I´d spent half of my wages after taxes for 6 years before I can enjoy my salary for myself? Show me any other profession were that is the case. If I were to pay my refreshers, then another 200.000€ would be on my books. that would be another 9 years half the salary. 15 altogether, out of my 21 years in aviation.

Look at the example for a new dude, 70.000€ in debt for his CPL/fATP and say 15.000 for the rating (that would be a cheap one) thats 85.000€.

I personally know people that are in exactly this position and they do earn 1800€ before taxes. That is, if your taxclass in germany is 1, maybe 1200-1300€ after taxes. So the guy lives at home and only uses a bicycle to get to work. Say this guy needs 300€ per month to live (you´d get more than that by social security in Germany & live is so cheap when staying in hotels in Dubai or Moscow or London), leaving him with a 1000 per month to pay his debts. After 85 months he´d be free of debt. Thats 7 years. IF he can stay with one employer!!! What if the company goees bust and he has to SS another TR in order to pay his debts? Add another 15-20-25k€? Thats another 2 years...

I know, he would most likely made captain after 3-4 years and the financial situ should be better then, but I also know companies where you pay upgrade costs. (after all, a supervisor cost a lot of money, doesn`t he?)

I just wonder how a clever business man would hire people that are to dumb to do the maths on their very own living, to look after their million dollar investment.

[Superpilot]

OK. Time out. Get a grip you guys that cast aside SSTR guys due to some obnoxious belief we are all young (without commitment), rich, spoilt and privileged queue jumpers. Spare a thought for us guys at the lower end who have no other choice.

I graduated in 2008 after saving for over 5 years. No money owed to parents or banks. I had no connections; no friends owning aircraft charter firms and certainly no dad/uncle working within the aviation business. I was however a 20 something married father and payer of a mortgage and bills. I've mentioned the last bit because there is no way I could’ve taken up instructing. Why would I have done that anyway? Which recruitment pilot is interested in my puddle jumper hours? - Easy, Wizz and at least 3 other European airlines have factorisation tables that take your 1,000 SEP hours and spit out just 10 !

Fast forwarding a bit, from 2008 till now (2011) the only operator interested in interviewing newbies (regardless of where they trained) has been RyanAir and the odd ad by TNT (with no doubt hundreds if not thousands applying). I had a Ryanair interview (my only one since graduating). Didn’t get through.

What must one do to get hired? Scrap that. What must one do to get INTERVIEWED if one is not a pre-selected airline cadet? Just look around you, UK and an increasing number of European airlines are just not interested in fresh low hours graduates if they’ve not been trained integrated-stylee by the likes of CTC or Oxford! These two flight-schools have the monopoly in the UK. Modular guys go ignored. If you’re a modular schmuck like me, the doors are closed nowawadays – This isn’t 1999 or 2004. You can try the tight and insular corporate/GA world all you like but if have no connections, the chances are even less than getting hired by an airline. The GA positions which do hire low experienced guys tend to have a requirement for a minimum of 150-200 multi piston hours and they are of course very few and far in between. Without a job, 200 MEP hours cost around £200 x 200 = £40,000 if you're not into Parker pen hours like me. I’ve sent in the region of 500 applications over 3 years, easily. It's been the usual deal, you know the score.

As a lowly modular student, in order to increase my chances I've got to do something else with my blue wallet. Something drastic! The choices: 1.) Make up the experience (unfortunately, many do) 2.) Buy a multi-turbine aircraft and build time! 3.) Buy a type rating (the more niche the better) in the hope that someone looking to hire in a hurry may do you a favour. In 2009 I had no idea which to do! Then I looked all around me. SSTRs were big, and were clearly working. Just months before I started, I witnessed at least 5 guys walk straight into jobs with respectable carriers with less than 250 TT and an A320 rating. What was I going to do? Be the fool, and not follow suit?

What has happened since the TR is another story. The recession got deeper and deeper. Since I finished the TR, I’ve not heard of a single person getting hired on the back of a TR alone and that includes me. Oh well, you take your chances and sometimes you still fail. I’m not the only one though. I am one of thousands of pilots in my situation – nothing special.

The short of it is that the current breed of chief pilot at airlines is simply not interested in unselected (non CTC and Oxford types) who have trained modularly because of some bizarre belief that we make **** pilots. This decision is made without even reading a CV in detail, without an assessment or interview of any sort. All of this even though we have been trained to the same standards, pass the same exams and checkrides (often the same examiners are doing the checkrides!). EZY, Monarch, MyTravel, TCX, Thomson, BA CitiFlyer all only hire newbies who have attended CTC/Oxford. CTC/Oxford are big business, the bigger the business the closer the bond. The closer the bond, the closer the favours :oh: The recruitment departments of airlines have quite literally sold out!

The UK pilot recruitment scene is a complicated mess. If you’ve not been a wannabe/newbie after the year 2007, I’m afraid you just don’t know the harsh reality of it. You’ve got your > 1,500 TT, you’ve got your magical 500 or 1000 on type. Unfortunately, this blurs your vision of what is happening at the lower end of the pilot recruitment scene these days. SSTRs are being increasingly taken up by modular pilots who are being ignored by airlines and who do not have the experience necessary to apply for coporate/GA positions. SSTRs may not drastically improve chances but even a 25% increase in likelihood of getting hired is worth it. Just an example, I saw an ad the other day for a Premier 1 rated FO, no experience on type required. SSTRs work and you can't blame us for taking advantage of what works. It's called being dynamic and adapting. They are in effect, no worse than bonds with the airline not having to wait 35 days for you to get trained. When you see it like this, your eyes will open.

I close this heartfelt response by challenging any chief pilot/recruiter to tell me I'm wrong about everything I say concerning low hours modular pilots and the reality that is the pilot recruitment scene in the UK today. We have no freaking way out due to lack of fair and equal assessment opportunities.

[His dudeness]

Get a grip you guys that cast aside SSTR guys due to some obnoxious belief we are all young (without commitment), rich, spoilt and privileged queue jumpers.

Superpilot, whilst there are some rich, spoilt and privileged queue jumpers, I guess most of us having a job are quite aware of how the market - and not alone in the UK - looks like. I have a lot of sympathy for you guys, I was unemployed once as well and when I joined aviation in early 1990 the market was also tits up.

IF, a big IF and - I admit it - in all likelyhood it won´t happen, no one would buy a TR him/herself, the airlines/operators would have to do that.

I think that is clear. Its also clear that the airlines did that when I was quite a bit younger.

Now what is also clear, is the fact that IF we - the pilots - continue to do what we are doing now, the profession won´t earn one a living any more. This will take some time. Whilst I have "only" 23 years to retirement, you (I presume) young dudes need to earn something the next 43,44,45 years.

So the concern I have is more for your future than for mine. If things don´t go too wrong I´ll retire at my current position. (at least I hope it).

Again, I feel very sorry for everyone that is unemployed.
But this stuff has to end. Otherwise you might need a second job besides flying just to be able to live. For the whole career. Think about it. And if you´re in coorperate or air taxi work, you will be in contact and fly people that earn your yearly wage in day.
Have a bird strike, engine goes to the shop, 250000USD gone. Owner does not care. 20.000 for TR is too much?

Buy catering in Moscow for 8 people, for one flight, thats roughly 3000 USD.
20.000 for a TR is too much ?
A toilet service is on average a 150 USD, so the equivalent of 133 toilet services is too much ?

I´m far from being a communist, but we - as a society, not only us pilots - have to take a stand. Otherwise we´re back to square 1 aka the circiumstances our ancestors lived in and fought against. (Unions, labour rights etcetc.)

[galaxy flyer]

For an airline, initial training is a rather marginal cost; they already have the sims and the instructors. For a new jet buyer, the PA includes 2-4 ratings, so no cost there, it's in the purchase. As His Dudeness says, a rating for a biz jet is a very small percentage of the cost of operating. The cost of a EU to US trip in a Global category plane exceeds the cost of a rating by a factor of 4 or 5. Buying ratings is a hamster wheel!

Simple economics says when the costs exceed the expected returns the only reasonable outcome is to leav the game--the market is saying get out! Subsidize your employer and it will never end.

GF

[swampthing]

I Agree with His Dudeness, I have seen money being wasted in HUGE amounts, they don't care to spend £20 000 in a flash on stupid expenses.. Catering like His Dudeness has pointed out, is one of the most expensive factors on a flight... Now imagine having catering for 3 people on a flight, that they did not touch and was enough to be lined up on the Aircrafts wing from root to tip !!! :ugh:

These companies and owners must wake up to life and see what is happening to the aviation industry, they are very happy to spend truck loads of money on the most trivial of things... but on the one "thing" that is there to deliver them safely to their destination and the one "thing" that they need to be loyal to them... on that one "thing" they are not prepared to spend any money !! That one "thing" is of course.. the pilot.

I do not go and buy myself an Aston Martin and then take it for a service and demand the technician must pay me for the privilege to work on my car !! If you buy the car, you also buy the expense to operate it !! The same goes for a plane, if you buy the plane, you buy the expense to operate it and a plane does NOT operate without a pilot !!! :=

We as pilots must start to pull together and stop this SSTR insanity which is a poison and a cancer eating it's way through what was once our proud profession !!!

[what next]

Good morning!

his Dudeness: But this stuff has to end. Otherwise you might need a second job besides flying just to be able to live. For the whole career. Think about it.

Good point. And true in any case. That has always been my key advice to wannabe pilots/students: Get yourself some kind of non-aviation-related qualification before starting your flying stuff. Finish your college/university studies first, finish you apprenticeship as a plumber, get yourself some IT qualification, even a truck-driving-license will help. Whatever. With such a background, your position in relation to employers changes radically: They have to lure you away from your "other life", you do not need to beg for anything. As I said above, I never paid for a type rating. Why? Because I never gave them the leverage to make me pay. I was always in a position to be able to say no.

I´m far from being a communist, but we - as a society, not only us pilots - have to take a stand. Otherwise we´re back to square 1 aka the circiumstances our ancestors lived in and fought against. (Unions, labour rights etcetc.)

Agreed. But again, "we" must be able to afford this. Saying no is only possible if you have an alternative way to support yourself (and your family). With your back against the wall, your only option is to take what "they" will offer you. Aas we can see now. So the best advice would probably be to use the money required for the SSTR and book a database-management-course instead.

Happy landings,
max

[Propellerpilot]

Absolutely!

Just another thought about the key word catering: it seems very common practice to upload 0 catering for the crew and leave them with the leftover catering the clients did not care to eat. The argument is: why?, we pay you SNTs for that! Well many times you land when the shops are already closed or there are simply no shops close by to be reached. If you are unlucky you might be able to scavenge a handful leftover rice, a bit of the gravy sauce and a few leftover grapes for desert - and share it with the other two colleagues on board. And that after you've paid for all your education and training and possibly your SSTR.

Unless we put our foot down and say NO - they will continue to treat us like a bunch of rats. I know there are of course companies that differ.

[chimichanga]

I have made it to a position where I hire pilots and as I have never paid for a type rating (I have 7) I will not hire pilots that have or are willing to pay for the rating.

Hopefully the owner of your company doesn't read your post! lol :O

[Pilot Positive]

I am paying a fortune to put my kids through university, for example to become a vet! Nobody is going to help me pay for my kids qualification and if they don't have it they wont get the job.

Thats right Suitcaseman, nobody is going to help you pay for your kids education. Sorry. And no, they cant do the job they want to do without proper minimum qualification either. However you are not comparing apples with apples in your analogy. :ugh:

Guys who go to OAA or CTC etc... are also paying for their initial training, just like you are paying for your kids education. However when your kids get into employment there is a fair chance they wont be asked to pay another £20K+ to become basic compliant with the new companies' equipment. Will they? In fact they will probably be earning as well... :hmm:

Lets not confuse industry specific issues. The P2F scheme and SSTR is, at the costs asked, unique to aviation.

[B200Drvr]

We are our own worst enemies, a lot of the "pay your own rating" comes from pilots who have had their training paid for and packed their bags and moved on. A lot of you bleat on about never paying for ratings, but the simple fact is that a lot of companies are sick to death of paying for 3 or 4 pilots a year to do ratings and then moving on. Look after the pilots then, I hear you say!! Rubbish, we are like a bunch of Hookers always looking for the best deal. Most pilots bitch and moan about everything, some to the extent of Diva status when things go wrong. The fact is, if you have NEVER paid your own rating but have left a company before your agreed term of "payback" then you are the one who has caused this cancer and NOT the Guy who is now paying for his rating because of your "entitlement." Its a chain reaction and you always blame the last link!!! The company I work for will not fund ratings because we simply have no legal way to protect ourselves, and there are to many self serving pilots out there with no morals. We only have ourselves to blame!!

[Pilot Positive]

I close this heartfelt response by challenging any chief pilot/recruiter to tell me I'm wrong about everything I say concerning low hours modular pilots and the reality that is the pilot recruitment scene in the UK today. We have no freaking way out due to lack of fair and equal assessment opportunities.

Yes, its a harsh reality of aviation that some operators only choose from the ab-initio pool. :{ Does this guarantee a standard which reduces training risk? Some think it does - regardless of the reality. Is it worth buying a speculative TR to counter this? Probably not...

However, on the upside there are some operators who like modular guys (as long as they show some continuity of training and haven't done their basic license with 5 different schools!!) as they recognise the committment guys/gals like yourself have made. It demonstrates sincerity and will probably make you appreciate the hard route you have taken which in turn is likely to make you more of a productive pilot.

These are dark times, Superpilot but hang on in there. Keep at it, keep putting out the CVs, keep picking up the phone, keep building hours in whatever form you can get, keep current and above all keep your chin up mate. :ok: There's light at the end of the tunnel and something might just be on its way... ;)

[Propellerpilot]

@B200Drvr - well my CV clearly proves that I have always fulfilled my part of the training bonds offered to me in the past, plus I have references. There is one company which typerated me in return for one years service where I eventually had some issues, however I still remained and endured for another extra year after fulfilling the commitment. If they would have offered me some more perspectives and motivation, I would probably still work for them today. There comes a time when to move on and in my case this was always in perfect order with the employer. I am quite concerned about my reputation in the industry, so I will do anything to keep it clean and stick to agreements.

It worked for me in the past and I sincerely believe it will work for me in the future and that the next TR bond will be offered to me, with the right company at the right time. I think it is also always a question of how we sell ourselves in form of an application (attractive CV), later in an interview or assessment. There are legal ways to set up a training bond scenario - anyone that leaves early, has to pay for the cost of the rating on a per rata basis. When signing a contract, both parties are signing a commitment to each other and both owe it to each other to fulfill the deal. This is the only way how to pave a healthy relationship.

Edit: and yes: if things become too crazy, quitting aviation is an option before falling into an endless pit. There are other fantastic things to do besides flying in life.

[Propellerpilot]

Yes - have to agree on that one. At the end everybody will go with what they think is right for themselves.