1st cross country flight, hit turbulance and ??

[Big Duke 6]

Hello,

I had my qualifying cross country for PPLH on thursday, 3 leg flight 30 min flight per sector.

Was in a R22 B11, Reconditioned with 600 hrs TT. My total time 47 hrs.

I was flying at 3000 agl over a mountain range with highest peak 2100 foot. I felt turbulance just passing over the first section then suddenly i start decending 700 foot / min, this was my first time on my own in turbulance. I reduced curising speed from 85kt to 75 kt, was nervous as ship kept decending so reduced speed so i would have me more power to get zero VSI. It was Interesting to say the least, then something really strange happened, there was a valley just before exiting the mountain range, i was curising at 90 kt to get out of there and suddenly felt like the insipient stages of Vortex ring, the fuselage started to vibrate more than usual.

I thought it cant be Vortex as my speed is ok @75kt

What the !!!!

Wind factor was 11 kts on take off and increased to 20kt at that stage.Temp 8c.

I was "excited" at this stage and somewhat stressed because i could not understand what was happening, all the while i had been keeping an eye on the Caraburator air temp gauge, i flew with carb air on full as there was low temp outside.

It is only later i realised that the carb air knob when pulled fully out would depress itself, because the teeth on the shaft where worn.

I not sure if when i felt the vibration the carb knob might have depressed allowing the carb air temp to get colder...would this be suggestive of the vibration i felt??

I would appreciate your comments on this.

Enjoyed it thoroughly, i now believe helicopter pilots to be a bit cokoo..

[Runway101]

What did your CARB AIR TEMP and MAP gauge indicate?

[Big Duke 6]

I was pulling circa 24 inches Manifold pressure.

CAT was in the early yellow stages circa 4c..

These are not exact as was difficuly to tell with all the goings on.

[Runway101]

Have you ever looked at the MAP LIMIT placard in your R22 Beta 2?

[HillerBee]

Why would you be at 3000 ft AGL over 2100 ft mountains on your first solo cross country? Second your not supposed to fly in mountains without proper training and especially theoretical knowledge. It's clear from what you write, you don't have a clue. Bottom line you should go and find an other instructor.

[Big Duke 6]

See what your saying, i can't be sure what the MAP was exactly, but was high at that stage as was trying to deal with turbulance.

Would this high MAP for a limited period lead to the vibration??

Also what about the CAT, any idea what the aircraft flies like if carb getting too cold before engine would shut down.? Spluttering of the enging & excessive vibration.?

I did not notice any irregularities with the T & P's.

A combination of CAT & MAP & Trubulance maby...

Hillbee:
Yea i hindsight should have not flown over the mountains, but instructor suggested.
When i talked with another inst he said he never sends students near mountains.
so yea should not have done.

Thanks for the reply.

[Rotorwashed]

so, you probably were doing a little low-level sightseeing near the mountains/in the valley. hit some downdrafts over the top of the peaks or the side of the valley.

did you talk to your instructor about what happened?

btw, the carb heat did not depress itself because the teeth are worn as you said. the carb heat pulls itself off automatically in relation to how much power you are pulling. the higher you pull the collective the more it comes off.

of course i could be wrong, but i doubt any school would allow a student to fly an r22 with a faulty carb heat lever. but then again if they are letting you fly solo over mountains in a 20 knot wind who knows....

[Big Duke 6]

I sure did..

Bad judgement on mine and his part to do it.

Learnt from it , and wont be doing again in a hurry without a mountain course under my belt.

[Rotorwashed]

"Learnt from it , and wont be doing again in a hurry without a mountain course under my belt."


thats the important part.

[fijdor]

Don't invalidate yourself and don't listen to everything being said here because you will end up scared ****less and only fly tight circuit around the airport a 600 hundred feet and never see the world and what's in it for fun

There are people here that knows the R22 and are trying to help you find what happened there, listen to them.

Also you where at a safe altitude and 2000 ft mountains well, are not really mountains.

Now if I were you I would talk to my instructor and go back to the same location in about the same conditions with him and ask him to show you or explain to you what happened there, that way you will understand what was the problem and know for sure not to get in it again or get in it again but this time knowing what is happening and how to deal with it.

Just get out there and have fun.

JD

[Rotorwashed]

something I might add is that your instructor is an extremely important part of your training. you can only be as well-prepared as your instructor is, and not all instructors are perfect.

have you done any flights with other instructors? If you havent, I would strongly recommend it. You would be surprised how much it will help your flying, even if your instructor is great. often times instructors and students get into a familiar groove and stick with it. getting in the cockpit with someone you are unfamiliar with can be enlightening, and often times you can pick up on a few extra tips and such. Plus it will help you when you do your check ride and are flying with someone new.

You dont need to be rude to your current instructor or anything like that, just tell him that you want to do a flight or two with another instructor to mix things up a bit.

[Ascend Charlie]

You were flying at 3000 agl over a 2100' hill - does that mean you were at 5100' amsl?

Or were you at 3000 amsl and only 900 agl crossing the hill?

And helicopter engines don't behave like the aeroplane engines in movies where they go brrrrttt...brrrrtt...brrrrttt before stopping. They simply go *cough* and they're off. Propellors keep the engine churning over to give the plane engines a couple more tries, but the freewheel unit does not allow the rotor to turn the engine. So, engine stops, that's it. Only the starter motor can make it turn over again.:eek::sad::yuk:

[darrenphughes]

Yeah dude, what were you doing up there? That's airplane country up there!!!:}

[hands_on123]

This has to be a joke. Over mountains on a PPL cross country.

[Benjamin James]

Is a 2000' hill really a mountain???

I must have more mountain flying experience than I thought :}

[ijustmight]

And don't forget, your MAP limit decreases as you go higher...

At sea level and 8 deg C, your max continuous limit was 22.3.
At 5000' PA (OAT now -2 deg C), the limit is even lower at 21.0!

I wonder how that engine is doing...:ooh:

[[email protected]]

ijust - He was at 3000' and +8 not 5000' and -2.

I think, as ascend charlie spotted, bigduke was at 3000' amsl over the 2100' hill (and it isn't a mountain until it's over 3000').

Even small features can give you nasty turbulence if the conditions are right.

Sending someone mountain flying on a solo cross country is not clever but a route that crosses 2100' ground is reasonable enough. How are you supposed to learn about turbulence if you don't get out and experience it?

[Brilliant Stuff]

My two pennies worth is that with 47 TTime you won't have a lot of experience flying an R22 solo, an R22 behaves quite different when there is only one person on board compared to 2. Especially if you for instance only weigh 75kg.
Couple with that some turbulence and I can perfectly understand it all feels a lot different from what you were used to.

As for Carbheat if you are pulling max chat there should not be to much chance of carb icing, though the factory recommended to me to have the carb heat out full all the time especially on a Beta II in the UK at +8 degrees.

Our school used to put on a course which based us at Carnaefon (Anglesey) and had us flying around Snowdonia.

I suggest you get back in there sharpish and get a feel for it.

We did have some serious turbulence over the last weeks which had us bouncing round the sky nicely and it is something you need getting used to.

[homonculus]

I may be a total cynic, but this thread reminds me of a couple of other wind ups - low hours, robinson, crazy claim leading to many indignant replies. I wont waste too much time on it.

[rotorrookie]

so after this experience you are the student "who went up a hill but came down a mountain" :E

[Agaricus bisporus]

"2000ft isn't a mountain"

For the purposes of what? Some irrelevant geographical definition, or comitting aviation in its vicinity?

Sounds like someone's not done much flying around high terrain then.

Jeez! You get them all here, don't you?

[toptobottom]

2000ft isn't a mountain? Don't start me off...

If this isn't a wind up, then it's clear to me that you were neither adequately prepared nor experienced to fly this route. The fact that even now you're confused about agl vs. amsl, MAP and CAT (and MCP) limits, and even how carb heat works, indicates you should not have been there and need some professional advice. What's the wind limit in a R22 for a solo P1 with < 300 hours? I assume you had only 25 ish hours P1 at the time? Why ask all this on here, when your instructor should be able to provide you with all the information you need?!

[Readyornot]

This might help explain:-
http://www.tpub.com/weather2/3.htm35.gif

[NickLappos]

Hey, everybody, give the guy a break. All the criticism is wrong-headed and seems mean to me.

Big Duke 6

1) You were flying and hit some turbulence. Not a big deal, but to a newbie's eyes, worth asking questions. Good on you for asking, bad on us for lambasting you. Good on you for flying nicely through it and telling us.

2) There are mountains and there are mountains. 2,000 ft hills on a solo cross country - big deal. 20 knots of wind, also big deal. All those others who think this is instructor malfeasance, fire your instructor, he doesn't/didn't trust you. Big Duke 6, do not apologize, it isn't necessary! Experience gives you judgment, which you get by experiencing things after showing less judgment.

3) The roughness you felt was clearly just a bit of stall, next time don't use high speed to escape. You had some increased load factor in the turbulence, maybe even a bit of increased airspeed in the bumps, and high collective/MP, all this pushes the rotor a bit closer to stall, and N per revolution vibration is the first clue. No problem, but a signal to knock off a few knots, probably 10, because slower is kinder to the rotor.

4) I defer to others as to carb heat, but too much is not good, esp at altitude.

5) Please continue to post on pprune, we want you and your thoughts. I guess you'll have to somehow mentally weed out the critical folks, who stand on the street corner saying bad things about everybody and give this neighborhood a bad name. I can't tell you how many PMs I get from folks who are afraid to post on pprune because of all the folks who sit in perfect judgment. Example: those who think you need a mountain course to fly over 2,000 ft terrain features shouldn't get out from under their beds after dark, it's too scary out there for them.

[toptobottom]

Nick - there's nothing wrong with constructive criticism and I can't see anyone posting anything that isn't constructive; he's certainly not been lambasted! Gusty 20kts over mountains (sic) as a very low time R22 jockey can be (and obviously was) scary and could have panicked him into a REALLY scary situation unnecessarily. It could have been a lot less scary with a bit prep. The main points are

Big Duke 6 is not a muppet, so he will no doubt listen and learn from these posts
he should however, have been better prepared for this flight
he should have been given all the right answers in a post-flight debrief by his instructor
his instructor needs shooting (see point 2)
he shouldn't take anything on here personally (nothing is, or the mods take it off pdq)Continue to post and fly safe! :ok:

[Devil 49]

Big Duke 6-
It's been decades since I flew anything with carb heat or manifold pressure. And, I don't know what a 'wind factor' is...

However, I do fly in comparable terrain, frequently, whether that's mountainous or not. I can relate to your story.

Thoughts-
Helicopters shake/vibrate more with increased speed, have your instructor demonstrate this and you'll be more comfortable.
Turbulence is usually temporary. Do the usual stuff to hold altitude in whatever you're flying when you hit the bumps. In a few seconds, you'll probably be in some air going the other direction to what you're fighting now. Don't take any hazard lightly in the meantime.
Your initial impulse to slow down was correct, but don't be excessive, too slow has it's own hazards. If terrain is a concern, you don't want to be slower than best climb.
You don't mention altering course. I'm a big believer in going around trouble, I'll divert/turn away from anything that implies it will exciting or hard work.
I do wonder why you're not talking with your instructor about this? That should be your best source of local knowledge, you, the aircraft, and weather.

[NickLappos]

toptobottom, maybe it's me, but when I read what is posted below by two or three folks, I get an awful lot of holier than thou vibe in the intonation. I don't think it is "constructive criticism" to blame him for sightseeing, blame the flight school for allowing him to fly that route on that day, etc. Frankly, it is quite unprofessional for those two or three to read his several sentences and then extrapolate to the point where his instructor and school are declared in the court of pprune to be guilty. Frankly, your decision as to what he and his instructor "should" do is exactly what I am talking about.

If pprune is that kind of "what you should do..." neighborhood, it is a crappy neighborhood, and newbies will shy away.

Frankly, the poor guy was cowed into apologizing for that normal flight - what a kangaroo court.

Big Duke 6, you didn't do a thing wrong, for pete's sake, nor did your instructor. Please don't take anonymous drivel as sound advice. Those who criticized you are off base, and frankly, talking through their hats. Thanks for discussing what you saw, keep posting.

And thanks to the many ppruners who piped in to support Big Duke 6, and offered advice without blame, thanks. That's what we "should" be doing.

[Brian Abraham]

Big Duke, you may find the following accident of interest. Pilot was the lead singer of the band "Skyhooks", Graeme "Shirley" Strachan.

You are right to post of your experience, as Nick proffered. There is no such things as a stupid question, but you will find some stupid answers from some of the Pprune brethren. I hope you can discern which is which, and do come back, there is a great resource of talent to be tapped here.

Investigation: 200104092 - Agusta, SPA, Costruzioni Aeronautiche 47-G-2A1, VH-SHP (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2001/aair/aair200104092.aspx)

BTW, there is no universally accepted definition of a mountain, the highest point in San Francisco is called Mount Davidson and yet it's only 980 ft.

All the very best in your continued flying adventure.

[Heliport]

NickLappos
Well said. :ok:

toptobottom he's certainly not been lambasted!Why ask all this on here, when your instructor should be able to provide you with all the information you need?!
Because he wanted to.
Because, as Brian Abraham says, "there is a great resource of talent to be tapped here."
One of the many good things about this forum is a long tradition that beginners' questions are usually answered courteously and helpfully.
It would be a sad day if that ever changed.

Big Duke 6
Welcome to the forum. Feel free to ask questions whenever you wish.
BTW, as a beginner you may not know that Nick Lappos is one of the most respected helicopter pilots in the world. Probably the most respected.


Heliport

[toptobottom]

Nick

Agree with almost all you say, but I'm sticking to my guns on blame. Big Duke did nothing wrong; agreed. The instructor however, should NEVER have approved that flight. It's completely unacceptable that a student was allowed to get into a situation that he hasn't been properly prepared for. The responsibility lies squarely with the instructor who should have been aware of the conditions and at least, given him some advice.

[Big Duke 6]

First of all i would very much like to thank you for your replies.

Like anything else the learning process is about being open to constructive criticism among other things.
To be honest i was scared during one part of the flight during which i was not sure what was happening.
My attitude is that if it scare's you and you cant get over it, well this career ain't for you.
Alas i have no problem, but i have learnt a few things and will always want to learn more.
I have my goal set so nothing will stop me getting there, where people criticise that's ok once its not vindictive.
I did chat with my instructor regarding my flight but i also find it good to get other views on this.

ROTORWASHED- I have flow with two other schools before choosing my current one, of which there are two very experienced instructors with whom i have flow.
They are well respected in the industry. I have no complaints.

ASCEND CHARLIE- YEA it was 3000' amsl.

Benjamin James- You can't really fly for too long without passing over a 2000' hill where i fly.

[email protected] This route is normal for cross country flying . I did fly it first with my instructor, it was just a different experience on my own. Once you know what your getting into that's how i will learn, i agree.

Brilliant Stuff- I agree i am back out this Sunday, no worries though. Cant wait.

Toptobottom- I am using this site as a sounding board as there are a lot of experienced folks here and want different views. I am learning via this site as well. I will be chatting again with my instructor about my flight and its good to get other peoples view too.

NickLappos- Thanks, and i don't take it personally. In fact ill take on board what everyone has to say and learn from it. That's why I'm on here,thing is we have all been in flying situations I'm sure that where "interesting", and if we don't learn from them whats the point.

Devil 49- Will be back sunday to thoroughly chat again re flight, Cheers.

Brian Abraham- Cheers.

BD6.

[stonedigger]

Experience gives you judgment, which you get by experiencing things after showing less judgment.

or to put it in Oscar Wilde's words: 'Experience is the name we give to our past mistakes.'

:ok:

[Devil 49]

I can't let this go:
"To be honest i was scared during one part of the flight during which i was not sure what was happening.
My attitude is that if it scare's you and you cant get over it, well this career ain't for you."

There's nothing wrong with fear or being afraid. Reasonable fear of an existing hazard is an intelligent reaction, and useful. Not being smart enough to appreciate the risks of a novel experience is a well grounded disqualification for a career in this job. One needs to have a real and appreciable respect for the definite possibility of a fatal error, I hope- because I'm not infrequently afraid on the job, and I started doing this in 1968.
Personally, I use the level of anxiety as the final, rock solid evaluation of whether I'm going to do something or continue doing it. If it becomes too 'sporty', I quit, if I can, period, end of story. Maybe I'll develop the skills to do "that thing" someday, and maybe I won't. But I'd rather be wrong on the ground and alive... Lesser levels of anxiety motivate me to evaluate my abort plans and the parameters to stop.
There's no better time for rational fear than when things are happening that you don't understand and you're not certain of how best to resolve the issue, as in your original post of this thread.