Tornado Down Part 2

[Bo Nalls]

Reports of another GR4 down at Lossie. 2 ejected - hopefully safely.

[Stitchbitch]

If true, then what you said, hope they managed a safe MB let down.

[jamier]

Where did you hear this?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

What reports?

If it is true, best wishes to the crew - who will be the first ejectees to be picked up by the Lossie SAR crew in 15 years.

[jamier]

I havent heard the helicopters going up but also havent heard any jets flying about for quite a while!

[vib6er]

Yep, cab airbourne lossie-no news on crew yet.

[just another jocky]

Nothing on the BBC NE Scotland website.

Where exactly did you hear about this?

[F.O.D]

It is being reported on the BBC Scotland page on the stop press banner at the top of the web-page.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

BBC saying "2 crew are in hospital after their Tornado jet crash landed at Lossiemouth Airfield"

[just another jocky]

Ok, I can't see anything, but that could be my lack of IT skills.

Hope crew are ok.

[Bo Nalls]

State 1 declared late afternoon. Info has it that the aircraft is just off runway 23, half way down

BBC Report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-12426100)

[jamier]

Can confirm, Tornado crashed on landing, 2 ejected, civi and service fire service in attendance.

[TheWizard]

It seems that the aircraft is sat on it's wheels on the grass beside the runway, so not a 'crash' as such.
Whatever reason the crew had for ejecting, the important thing is they are safe and well.

[GrahamO]

Does anyone know if the crash sufficiently bad so as to scrap the aircraft ?

How many Tornado's do we actually have left given we have no ability to replace them ?

[peppermint_jam]

Speedy recovery to both crew.

[gareth herts]

Does anyone know if the crash sufficiently bad so as to scrap the aircraft ?

How many Tornado's do we actually have left given we have no ability to replace them ?

How very timely and considerate of you!

[GrahamO]

The crew are safe and well as has been stated so its not inconsiderate.

My point is that once they are fully recovered, are they able to go back to duties or is it another wing down for good ?

[metimmee]

The crew are safe and well as has been stated so its not inconsiderate.

My point is that once they are fully recovered, are they able to go back to duties or is it another wing down for good ?


It depends how bent she is.

[Big Eric]

There's a fantastic shot in FighterContol (in the Heads-up/OTT section),it ended-up inbetween a fence and a HAS.

[Buzz Control]

Im told ZD741 / 089

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/OneMacGuru/Lossie2011/10Feb_Eject/IMG_6812_web.jpg

:ok:

[Big Eric]

Have you got the photographer's permission to post the shot here ?

[TheWizard]

Assuming he is not the photographer of course!!!:ok:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Firstly glad the crew got out and here is hoping for a swift recovery for any injuries sustained.

Now a bone question from an ex-stacker.

When the old MBs leave the aircraft is there any form of 'kill switch' to cut fuel to the engines or do they just carry on regardless, obviously bearing in mind any issues that caused said assisted departure?

My knowledge of such things is restricted to sitting in the back of various aircraft and hazy memories of the "junp, jump Johnny" Chipmunk procedural film from AEF days.

[jamier]

Theres a crash switch stacker that i believe cuts power and fuel to the engines and discharges the extinguishers into the engines but i may be wrong im only a liney :)

[LookingNorth]

Ah, those tricky pax flights. "Now hold on tight, we're about to land. Don't hold on to that stripey handlllllllllllllllllllllllleeewhooosh"

[Airborne Aircrew]

Stacker the pilot has a lead that pulls the key out fo the ignition when they eject, just like if you fall off of a jet ski. Hope that helps.

See... This is why we have a military. It's all that defence R&D that comes up with devices like this that filter down to the public and ensure we don't have jet skis and boats scooting willy-nilly about our lakes.

I bet the one in the Tornado cost a few hundred grand though... :ugh:

[Timelord]

There is a crash switch that does all sorts of things but it has to be operated by the pilot. In this case it looks as if someone will have had to climb into the cockpit and shut it all down.

[goosegander]

Sorry to burst any bubbles,

when a tonka crew bang out, the engines etc still have to be shut down,
there are crash switches which the fire crews use,
i would suggest that , that is one of the reasons for the ladders being upto the cockpits of an empty jet!!!

[Chainkicker]

Stacker the pilot has a lead that pulls the key out fo the ignition when they eject, just like if you fall off of a jet ski. Hope that helps.

That's strange RA. The emergency kill switch on my watercraft is certainly separate from the ignition key.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Thanks for the sensible answer Timelord.

Having spent my entire career working with SH and the limited amount of crash/fire training given whilst on TSW (pull/push yellow and black bits, squirt extinguisher in specific places) the world of fast, pointy things is a bit of a mystery.

[Airborne Aircrew]

the world of fast, pointy things is a bit of a mystery

As it should be... Any aircraft that needs a run up to get off the ground is unnatural...

[glad rag]

Was it a take off or landing roll? NWS fail? uncommanded steering input?? ICO no longer wired up these days???

Dunno whats going on with the GR punteroes these days...

...totally tongue in cheek of course; more than happy Mr MB did the business and the crew vacated safely, nothing like heading askew towards some of NATO's finest concrete to make your mind up.:ok:

[goosegander]

um..
tried posting this earlier...

fire crews would have had to shut the jet down, as there is no "key" etc
the crew wont have done it as they used the express departure method!!!

glad they are ok!

[Wingedplumber]

um..
tried posting this earlier...

fire crews would have had to shut the jet down, as there is no "key" etc
the crew wont have done it as they used the express departure method!!!

glad they are ok!


How would you know smarty pants?:}

Maybe they operated the crash switch before they ejected?

[onemac]

Actually he hasn't but it's my fault for not putting copyright on. Lesson learned.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/OneMacGuru/Lossie2011/10Feb_Eject/IMG_6815_Prune_web.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/OneMacGuru/Lossie2011/10Feb_Eject/IMG_6799_Prune_web.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/OneMacGuru/Lossie2011/10Feb_Eject/IMG_6812_Prune_web_1.jpg

Al

[GeoAC]

Lossie! State 1

[Walrus75]

Welll, yer see, they coulda stayed with it, bloomin aircrew nowadays... anything to get a free tie! :eek:



(Cant fault you Gents, hope you're both fit and well :ok:)

[Ali Barber]

From the Daily Telegraph:

Tornado Crash Landing
RAF Tornado crashes two weeks after another jet landed in the sea.

Close, but no cigar!

[Ogre]

Cor, I recognise that HAS site. Spent a couple of years there when it was new.

I have to say, if I was driving one of these jet thingies and it was heading towards a HAS I'd get out the quickest way possible!

[Dark Helmet]

I seem to remember that the crash switch is also designed to move under impact. (Sort of like the one in modern cars that cuts off the fuel pump and activates the hazard lights.)

[Ewan Whosearmy]

From the Daily Telegraph:

Tornado Crash Landing
RAF Tornado crashes two weeks after another jet landed in the sea.

Close, but no cigar!

Brilliant! What a great start to Friday :)

[moggiee]

Ah, those tricky pax flights. "Now hold on tight, we're about to land. Don't hold on to that stripey handlllllllllllllllllllllllleeewhooosh"
Set command eject to "FRONT" and break the knob off (knob does not = backseater, honest!).

[Canadian Break]

Where did the pictures go?

[Fox Four]

As this is a 'rumour' forum, might I suggest NWS fault? XV571 did a similar thing at Leuchars circa 77? Metal in the follow up potentiometer I believe, and I think the future 43 sqn boss was in the back?

Anyway, good decision to jump chaps, going cross country with all that concrete about and I'd have gone. Get well soon, we need you back.

FF

[glad rag]

I seem to remember that the crash switch is also designed to move under impact. (Sort of like the one in modern cars that cuts off the fuel pump and activates the hazard lights.)

22g required in the correct plane.:8

[Unusual Attitude]

West Coast one will be recovered next week....

[dead_pan]

Welll, yer see, they coulda stayed with it, bloomin aircrew nowadays... anything to get a free tie!


Maybe they didn't want to get their boots muddy - that grass does look slightly damp.

One can only imagine the banter they'll suffer on their return.

[PPRuNe Pop]

onemac

Assuming that do have permission to use copyright material, the size of the pics should be no more than 850x850 to avoid a lateral stretch of the page - please re-size them. If the pics are NOT yours please take them down to avoid placing PPRuNe in mis-use of copyright position.

[TheWizard]

I think the clues are all there that they are indeed HIS pictures!!:rolleyes:

[Cows getting bigger]

Are there some Sarboy sympathisers on the GR1 fleet? Something along the lines of justifying an ongoing core military capability requirement? :) Nothing like doing it on your own doorstep though!

[Donna K Babbs]

GR1 fleet?

[rotormonkey]

From BBC on the latest mishap:

Aviation writer Jim Ferguson said the lack of information about the latest incident was creating anxiety among some in the Lossiemouth community...

"Was it birds, was it possibly mechanical, because it is concerning local residents."

and from January:

A petition with more than 30,000 signatures aimed at saving RAF Lossiemouth was delivered to 10 Downing Street earlier this month


What do the locals want? Base, or no base...

[Mad_Mark]

Well considering Moray has a population of about 90,000 and a third of those have signed the Moray-wide petition to keep RAF Lossiemouth open then for there to be a feeling of "anxiety among some in the Lossiemouth community" is no great surprise :rolleyes:

No matter how much the RAF bring to Moray there will always be some of those SNP supporting racists that you sometimes have the misfortune to meet in the area wanting rid of the RAF - for some reason they seem to think that all in the RAF are English (well, the one or 2 that are capable of thought :E )

MadMark!!! :mad:

[davejb]

Stop exaggerating...

(well, the one or 2 that are capable of thought http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif )



..name ONE!

Dave

[RumPunch]

Without speculating on the 2 incidents that have happened last few weeks, if its down to Engineering issues, I wonder if the uncertainty of the base closure/move is having an effect on morale and people are not thinking 100% on the ball. Just a question for thought as we have been discussing it today. Human Factors and all the good stuff.

[Walrus75]

... best wishes to the crew - who will be the first ejectees to be picked up by the Lossie SAR crew in 15 years.
11 1/2 actually - October 1999, the Station Commander had to jump out of a Jaguar when it decided it wasn't playing anymore, was picked out of the water by a new crewman who was on his first 'job'. The crewman said to Stn Cmdr "Do you know who I am?", Stn Cmdr responded with "No... but do you know who I am?" :)

[RumPunch]

Walrus lol

Was that the one when he punched out and the Nimrod in the area flew underneath him while he was floating down to the sea, im sure he wrote a good story on that in Airclues

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

The Nimrod that flew underneath the Lossie Staish was being flown by the Kinloss Staish - they were homing to the PLB, incorrectly assuming that the 'survivor' was in the water. The jet also had the RCDS onboard!

I believe that the Lossie Staish was 'impressed by the noise of 4 Speys in action quite close to his ears!

Duncs:ok:

[glad rag]

The art work on the annual FS poster was quite impressive for that one I remember..

[edwardspannerhands]

@Rumpunch; Morale on that particular Sqn is - despite the 2 recent incidents and the uncertainty regarding the future, higher than it has been for many a year. 4 bang-outs, 4 guys who will have a great story for the grandkids. Happy days. :)

For the armchair experts out there, yesterday's aircraft had landed and travelled about 6000 feet along the runway before something caused it to depart the centreline. Now it's up to the BoI to determine the cause. Leave it to them and stop speculating.:ugh:

[RumPunch]

Thats is fair enough Edward , I do apoligise. I unfortunately know many of the lads out there and the gossip does travel. We shall await till the BOI puts its findings out in a years time.

[bakseetblatherer]

Yeah no speculating on a rumour forum please :rolleyes:

[Linedog]

@edwardspannerhands

yesterday's aircraft had landed and travelled about 6000 feet along the runway before something caused it to depart the centreline.

From the pics which were posted yesterday and have now been removed, the aircraft seemed to be at rest in front of 12 Sqn's HAS complex, they being the only ones which have the doors opening facing the runway. Therefore the aircraft would have landed on R05 and not R23 as previously suggested.
If the aircraft had travelled 6000 feet along the runway, which If memory serves is 9100', that would place it in front of the old 8sqn apron, and not in front of the 12Sqn complex.

[Ogre]

Linedog

Beg to differ, the photo I saw seemed to line up with the old 208 now 617 Southern HAS site. The HAS in the background that is lit up was almost parallel to the runway (24 if memory serves) with 25 behind it. to the left.

Landing would have been over the Lossie/Elgin road rather than over the Moray firth.

(Can't believe I just posted this, HAS spotting at my age. oh the shame..:()

[ZH875]

From the pics which were posted yesterday and have now been removed, the aircraft seemed to be at rest in front of 12 Sqn's HAS complex, they being the only ones which have the doors opening facing the runway.

On the Northern HAS Site HAS's 06, 08 & 09 faces the runway. All the HAS have doors facing another HAS with the exception of HAS 09 which has a large concrete wall between the HAS and the runway, so the photos must be of the Southern (ex 208 Girly Sqn) HAS Site.

[Linedog]

So it wasn't on R23 after all?

[Timelord]

And before that in 1995 a GR1, also at Goose, in identical circumstances. (Although neither may have any connection to the Lossie incident)

[edwardspannerhands]

@ Linedog:
Admittedly I was confused with the photograph initially. It actually makes the HAS seem closer than it actually is. The HAS is on the Southern (617 Sqn) side of Runway 23/05.
The incident aircraft made an approach and sucessful touch down on Runway 23 (i.e. heading in a roughly westerly direction). Due to the as yet unknown cause of the incident, it is now sitting to the north of Runway 23 pointing in a NW / NNW direction - just before the intersection of the 2 runways. I have said about 6000 ft along Runway 23 - obviously I haven't been out there with a measuring tape, but it's close enough for Government work:ok:

[Linedog]

Thank you. :ok:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

11 1/2 actually - October 1999


Walrus,

Apologies - age playing tricks with tiny brain! I thought the initial conversation between J*** C and the Staish went on the lines of JC "Hello mate, how are you doing?" Staish "Don't call me mate, I'm the Stn Cdr!". But you're definitely right, it was his first job!

[Walrus75]

Yeah, but we never let the truth get in the way of a good story do we! :) Can't believe it was so long ago, tempus fugit and all that :eek:

Anyhoo, the Tonka is sitting around about here --> Flash Earth - Zoom into satellite and aerial imagery of the Earth in Flash (http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=57.705651&lon=-3.341507&z=17.3&r=0&src=msl) for those that are interested. Looked like it was going to be moved today but nowt happened.

[onemac]

Apologies - pics resized.

These pics are mine as per the copyright.

Just to clarify a few points - the aircraft landed on runway 23 and as far as I can see from the viewpoint outside the 10 end, deviated to the right off the runway after the cross-section of runways 28/10. It came to rest (undercarriage intact) just before the fence that surrounds the PAR mushroom with both the ejector seats visible some 50-100 yards in front of the aircraft. Both survival packs and parachutes are stacked about 50 yards to the rear of the aircraft. Included below is a daytime pic of the scene clearly showing the parachutes on the left and one of the seats to the right.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c168/OneMacGuru/Lossie2011/10Feb_Eject/IMG_6818_Prune_web.jpg

Al

[fisbangwollop]

Nice piccie....what is all the black at the base of the tail fin?? is that norm as looks like has been caused by heat/exhaust...:cool:

[Pontius Navigator]

fisbang, yes, all Tornados are dirty in that area. Surprising in a way that they never painted it black in the first place.

[Dan Gerous]

I think this is part of a cunning plan. If we can't have the Tornados up here, then Marham aint getting them either. :p

[Oldsarbouy]

The good Burghers of Inverness must have thought the end of the world was upon them when they were awakened by the mighty roar of the 4 Conways of the VC10 taxi that was taking the two Tonka crew South late in the evening!

[howiehowie93]

The HAS in the background that is lit up was almost parallel to the runway (24 if memory serves) with 25 behind it.
oooohh HAS25, my home from home when I wasn't in my other Home; HAS44 Bruggen; The Hard Rock HAS - no Drugs or Nuclear Weapons allowed inside !!

happy days !!!

H:ok:wie

[just another jocky]

There are literally dozens of possible scenarios which could cause the aircraft to end up in that position, so the "I think it was....." seems a little daft to me as very very few people have the facts at hand and none of it will be validate until the BoI have completed their investigation.

Mind you, I'll never forget the GR1 that ended up just off the runway at Dhahran after the NWS went to full left deflection when the pilot selected 'HIGH'.

[Green Flash]

Well, on Sunday afternoon/evening I watched a ginormous crane (civvy contractor with one of those jobs with millions of wheels) lift said cab out of the mud, plonk in gently on the runway and a wee yellow tug towed it off in to the nearest HAS site (15 Sqn's?). It look remarkably un-bent, although it might need a bit more than seating and glazing before it takes to the air again. Still, the fact that it was towed in the normal manner must point to its relative lack of damage.

[30mRad]

Now I would like to see a crane lifting a Tonka out of the mud! I don't suppose the official photographer from earlier in this thread was there to record the moment for us Ppruners was he/she?!

[ukmil]

there are pics yes, but since they are not mine, I can't post them here, but hopefully the owner will very soon

[27mm]

Let's hope they have better luck than the team that attempted to lift an RSAF ADV "gate guard" onto the roundabout outside Tabuk airbase....

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

VC10 taxi that was taking the two Tonka crew South


VC10 for interim SAR-H replacement, eh? Didn't see that one coming...

[Walrus75]

I can see that happening, after all the Nimrods were doing winching ops for years according to the news people :rolleyes:
:)

[Phalconphixer]

Fox four...bit belated but...and apologies for any thread drift...

As this is a 'rumour' forum, might I suggest NWS fault? XV571 did a similar thing at Leuchars circa 77? Metal in the follow up potentiometer I believe, and I think the future 43 sqn boss was in the back?

I was the resident 43Sqdn A shift radio guy in those heady days...

Turns out the problem wasn't unique to XV571 but was common to all FG1 a/c and the reasons behind it only came to life much later. The lower UHF antenna was located on the forward facing nosewheel door on the opposite side of the door to the Nosewheel steering motor.

In 1981, during EMC testing of the then new PTR1751 radios on the FG1 Phantom it was found that transmissions on a couple of quite narrow bands of frequencies from the lower UHF antenna regularly caused steering shimmy when stationary or steering deviation when moving during taxying, take-off or landing. (Strangely enough I left the RAF in 79 and in 1980 joined Plessey's ASR889 Installation and Development team and one of my first tasks was EMC testing the PTR1751 on the FG1; what goes around comes around...)

Needless to say, Leuchars Tower UHF frequency at the time just happened to coincide with one of the affected bands of frequencies. The immediate solution was to include an instruction to the crews that transmissions on the ground should only be made using the upper UHF antenna located in the fincap, just as far away from the NWS as possible.

Prior to fleet fit of the new PTR1751 radios, it was fairly uncommon to find an old PTR374 that would produce the necessary Tx power to cause the upset, but just occasionally one would get a good one...anything in excess of 17W would do it...and the PTR1751 was good for 25W normally.

Another little aside concerning XV571; it was 43 Sqdn's bosses mount and I lost count of the number of times he reported loss of comm during 4G+ port turns. That particular aircraft had crap PTR374 mounting tray rear connector mounting springs and despite the T/R being hammered home into the mounting tray and the thumbscrews tightened as much as possible there was always a degree of float so that in a hard port turn, contact would occasionally be lost between the T/R and the tray connector. Repairs to the rear connector were nigh on impossible so during a engineering debrief I jokingly suggested to the boss that perhaps he should restrict his turns to +3.5G or less. He found the remark highly amusing and complained that that would take all the fun out of chasing away Ivan, but S.Eng.O thought otherwise...

Shortly thereafter BAe Brough and the Flight Test Centre at H-O-S-M detected excess fatigue in the wing fold hinges and imposed a +3.5G limit anyway...

pp

edited to remove a couple of 'oops' senior moments

[tommee_hawk]

Happy to be on the crew of the 40+ y/o funbus sent to God's own country to collect the crew of the 25+y/o electric jet and drop them off dahn Saff. Sadly bad weather meant they ended up in RAF Oxfordshire rather than Birmingham, but we tried our best.

Hope they're both recovering nicely and coping with their temporary height loss...

[Fox Four]

Phalconphixer, many thanks for your post, I never knew that!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Tommee,

Great work by you and your colleagues:D. Out of interest, how long did it take you to generate the sortie and make the trip up north?

TOTD

[Tonkenna]

It took about !:30 plus the hour it took us to get there!:ok:

Tonks :)