Somebody else must still love being in the RAF as much as me... [Archive]

30mRad

10th Feb 2011, 08:00

I still love being in the RAF. Over 22 years there have (obviously) been some massive changes, but the one thing still keeps me here is the comradery. The feeling of being in a team and getting the job done (whatever it is) despite (or in spite of?!) those above who seem to go out of their way to make it harder than it should be. I think this is all down to leadership in its truist terms - if you lead well then people work for you: if you don't they won't - maybe the seniors in the RAF (and MOD) should consider that. Friends and colleagues who now work outside in a variety of areas all say that is also what they miss: it just isn't the same out in the real world.

I am struggling to understand why I stay though - family first now not front line first - as cuts are made to pay, rises in charges etc etc, but the jobs available and the challenges they present still enthuses me. And, if you make the time (and you do have to work at that) then there are still so many opportunities for other things: all the AT stuff etc is still there.

My tuppence for what it's worth.

PFMG

10th Feb 2011, 13:40

It's a job.

It pays the bills.

The bills need paying.

I probably wouldn't get as much outside.

It's a simple case of economics.

Love hasn't been part of the equation for quite some time now.

Whenurhappy

10th Feb 2011, 14:09

Yes - I loved the RAF but I am not sure that this love was reciprocated...

ramp_up

10th Feb 2011, 18:07

Actually Yeah I do still enjoy it. However the politics and bitching over who owns what or what ac are to be chopped is driving a masive wedge between everybody. For all those moaning about the proper RAF, step over the fence and spend a day in the life of a rotary mate where jointry is only spelt one way and that is ARMY. While the SHF have been conductucting back to back Ops many of you out there have had protracted gardening leave on full pay or endured dets far away from the reality of the battlefield. If your sat on your A*** come down to Odiham or Benson and give the poor overworked sod on the gate a rest so that he can get back to fixing the few remaining flying machines that we have left in the UK. Take it on the chin and move with the times or find yourself another job. :ugh:

Biggus

10th Feb 2011, 18:20

ramp-up

I take it there are no MPGS at Odiham or Benson then...?

Presumably if you are "tired and emotional" after time on the SH fleet you can request a ground tour or aircraft change. People on other fleets didn't go there to "dodge" ops, they were sent there in good faith by streaming decisions, desk officers, etc....

This is a rumour forum, on which people are at liberty to say (within certain defined parameters) what they wish. I suggest if you are not happy with what people are posting you either don't read the thread (or entire forum) or alternatively you could take your own advice, and "take it on the chin"... :ugh:

wokawoka

10th Feb 2011, 18:24

Ramp up,

Amen brother.:D

jindabyne

10th Feb 2011, 18:32

Even 40 years ago, I was talking with an 'old' bloke, 35-38 I guees, and he said how many times people would be chatting with him, their crew (or sqn mates) would arrive and he could be sitting in total isolation.

What on earth does that mean - been on the pop?

Thud_and_Blunder

10th Feb 2011, 20:02

jindabyne,

I think it means that the bit in Stradling where you looked after visitors to the mess before you took care of yourself and your mates was observed very rarely. At Odiham, not long after the Mess rules were changed by popular formal vote to 'there are no rules', I saw a young officer from another service shouted at by an OCU student for entering the bar with his beret tucked into his back pocket. No effort to make the guest/visitor feel welcome, just a surly sawdust-and-spitoon shout designed to embarrass and intimidate. Some folk obviously had their own interpretation of what rules did or did not exist - hospitality fell at the first hurdle.

Legalapproach

10th Feb 2011, 20:12

Were there ever any rules in the Mess at Odiham? I remember many years ago arriving at the Mess, walking into the bar and not long afterwards being thrown out of a window by a large Scottish Wessex pilot (that is to say the pilot was Scottish, not the Wessex).

Thud_and_Blunder

10th Feb 2011, 20:32

Yeah, well, you'd just transgressed one of the unwritten ones then, hadn't you? Lucky you didn't get your pelvis screwed to a coffee table, in fact. He was fair - vicious, but fair...

ramp_up

10th Feb 2011, 22:06

Biggus,

Without trying to put us into a spiral. At the moment there is a lot of my dad is bigger than your dad going on which is extremely toxic to the whole force. If you re-read my post regarding the thread 'do you still find the Air Force enjoyable' – You will see my answer is undoubtedly “Yes”, clearly that would indicate that I am neither tired nor emotional despite many years on the frontline. Just because the Fast Jet and MPA Ivory Towers have come tumbling down doesn’t mean that the Air Force is SxxT. I’m sure that everyone will agree that the SH and TAC AT fleets are working hard; however the can do attitude ethos that these forces work by is wearing thin not because people think the job is WxxK but because they are tired or broken from working hard. As there is no money in the pot then surely the scraps that we do have should go to the fleets that are directly supporting the Current Land War, even if this is to the detriment of other capabilities or platforms. I for one would rather that they cancelled CEA in total and saved the Harrier Force; but I am sure that others would disagree. Finally yes we do have MPGS at Odi but they are supplemented by the Stn Work Force, as it saves money from the 'Land' Budget.

Runaway Gun

11th Feb 2011, 09:44

I just wish dropintheoggin would share his thoughts...

Phil_R

11th Feb 2011, 12:37

Whenever I've had any personal contact with it, the RAF has seemed to be a group of incredibly pleasant and helpful people in a way that doesn't really exist outside the military. Sometimes it does on a film set at the end of a really long day in a remote location when everyone's collapsing from fatigue and lack of food, but those are the sort of things you have to do to most civilians to get that attitude out of them. The the supplies of this characteristic available to the military appear to be endless.

You really do have to do something about the ladies' uniform skirt, though. Christ on a Harley Davidson. :E

P

Runaway Gun

11th Feb 2011, 13:20

It's hard to disguise a Frying Pan with Xmas paper wrapping.

teeteringhead

11th Feb 2011, 13:46

And of course the dear recently departed Susannah had the answer to that .....:E

dropintheoggin

11th Feb 2011, 14:13

That's fair enough Runaway Gun.

The main thing I love is the feeling of being part of a team with a purpose. Everywhere I've worked everyone is dedicated to the cause and has a 'can do' attitude. Of course, things have been a little different lately with some uncertainty but the vast majority of people are, in my eyes, still committed to the nth degree.

The changes in my 15 years in have been drastic and the reductions frequent but my impression of the people doing the job is still positive.

I'll probably get chewed out by someone for saying it but I think that, while there is a fair amount of uncertainty, there isn't alot us minions can do about the cuts so getting on with our jobs safely and productively is surely the best option?

The people, the opportunities and the feeling of achieving are what I love most.

Safety Concerns

11th Feb 2011, 14:28

think that you will find that there is a fair chance that Future Hunter will be leaving in the near future - whether he wants to or not!

The above threatening post says it all.

The RAF is crap as most know compared to civvy street. No freedom, crap conditions, crap pay. And wo betide anyone with a mind of their own. The only reason to join is if your country really needs you or you know that you can ignore the rubbish for your couple of minutes flying boys toys a month. Otherwise forget it.

Shack37

11th Feb 2011, 15:34

The RAF is crap as most know compared to civvy street. No freedom, crap conditions, crap pay. And wo betide anyone with a mind of their own. The only reason to join is if your country really needs you or you know that you can ignore the rubbish for your couple of minutes flying boys toys a month. Otherwise forget it.

Do stop beating around the bush, if you've got something to say, spit it out.
What's this "as most know" crap? You're entitled to your own opinion but don't pretend to speak for the whole world.
There are posts on here from people still serving who may be a bit more qualified to opine.

Old-Duffer

11th Feb 2011, 16:52

I joined the ATC at the start of 1958 and moved to the real air force in ’63; at which point there were 11 Commands, 145000 service personnel, something over 100 squadrons and several thousand operational aircraft. On retirement, I became involved with the reserves and am still a member of the RAFVR(T) (although expecting to be made a defence cut any day soon!!). So probably – he writes boastfully – amongst the longest serving, with or without counting cadet time.

I need not rehearse the changes to everything over those years but the one constant has been the people. Those who elect to join any of the services and stick with it ( a surprisingly large number bale out, even at the recruit training stage) are a different breed from those who pursue other careers. We probably have most in common with those who serve in things like police, fire service and those organisations where discipline and commitment are important and where one willingly accepts being dealt some pretty dirty hands. I have made many acquaintances but few friends I would call ‘intimate friends’ but whenever I meet those I served with, we pick the conversation where we left off, years before. There have been people I tolerated, those I didn’t much care for but only one person I fu:mad:-g hated!

So for me, the RAF is all about the people who make up the service. We’ve shared the good times and the bad and been messed about, treated as ‘units of manpower’ and not real people but I don’t regret it, although I’ve had my fair measure of disappointments.

So I still care about the RAF, where it is, where it’s going and the people who are still in it and have to make it work.

If there has to be a sour note, it is that for the first time I cannot recommend the armed forces as a full time career because of the uncertainty about the future but it’s been the major part of my life and thanks to all those who made it worthwhile. :{

Old Duffer - in unusually melancholy mood for him :sad:

Samuel

11th Feb 2011, 20:48

Well, Old Duffer you have put it rather well; sentiments I am inclined agree with entirely. To my mind after 25 years in two Royal Air Forces, I determined a very long time ago that what really made it what it was was the people, and the mutual respect everyone had! I was extremely fortunate, I believe, that I am what I am today because of my service time and the people I met. It is character-forming!

I often contemplate all the good things in my life, and used to think it all came about due to an element of luck, but now I believe that a lot of the decisions I took along the way were much better thought out than I ever gave myself credit for and luck didn't really play that big a part. I was constantly thinking outside of the square, and guess where I learnt that. Post service I was an Executive in a large organisation which had regular management meetings, and of course there were always those who felt they had to raise all sorts of problems, most of which were minor or immaterial to the general scheme of things. I got into the habit of leaving such meetings to go and fix such and such a problem, then return to the meeting and indicate it had been fixed, and this resulted in the Boss asking me on day how I knew all this stuff! I told him I'd spent a large part of my life with people who could think for themselves!:ok:

Romeo Oscar Golf

11th Feb 2011, 21:18

I was "in" for 20 years and I've been "out" for nearly 30. Ergo I am not qualified to answer the question. Others, however may be qualified-really annoyed are you listening? Answers like
Oh no here we go again. Another three pages of whinging and whining. Just leave if it is that bad.:ugh:

and
how would you know what it is like in the RAF today? Please enthrall us with your current experience of the Royal Air Force.

Neither address the question.
I really enjoyed my time and am saddened to read that there is much unhappiness in recent times. Consequently I would like to hear more of the positives,( perhaps from really annoyed, if he/she can be bothered), and my faith and belief in you guys still serving can be restored.
Cheers:ok:

Melchett01

11th Feb 2011, 21:35

I have to say that Old Duffer got it pretty much spot on. When the military is good, it's very very good, and there isn't anywhere I would rather be. However, when it's bad, it's very very very bad. And right now, it's very very very very bad.

Not only are we up against the Taleban, we are also up against the politicians and bean counters. And frankly, they scare me a damn sight more effective than the Taleban. At least with the Taleban you know where you stand. With the politicians and bean counters, frankly you can't trust them one jot; the pat in the back from Dave and his mates isn't a well done, it's a recce for the knife that's surely about to follow.

And because of the politicians - of all hues - and the changes to society in recent years to become me me me, the military now finds itself in the current position where fear and paranoia reign, with all the Services out to protect themselves whilst looking for the next opportunity to get one over on the other Services. And working in a Joint HQ at the moment, I can tell you that it isn't much fun.

I could go on, but frankly, I think Old Duffer expressed it in far more eloquent terms than I could this evening. All I would say is that it's bad enough that I would rather be in theatre taking my chances with the Taleban than being in work and having to take my chances with the politicians, bean counters and senior officer in-fighting.

minigundiplomat

11th Feb 2011, 21:44

Actually, both spellings of Taleban/Taliban are correct depending on dialect.

alisoncc

11th Feb 2011, 21:45

Like R. O. G. been out for a long time so not qualified to comment on today, but still reckon my time in the mob were some of the best years of my life. Didn't matter where you turned up from there was always a meal in the mess, some friendly banter in the NAAFI and a clean dry bed at night. Whether you'd just arrived in from Changi or Yatesbury, Muharraq or Leconfield. Then, there was always a sense of certainty that the basics were catered for and all you had to do was carry out your role to the best of your ability. If you knew your stuff then no one gave you hassles.

Romeo Oscar Golf

11th Feb 2011, 21:52

Really annoyed, you really are an offensive and worthless contributor to this and the other threads where I've seen your pointless and immature comments.
Do try and be positive, give credit where it's due, and consider answering the challenges put to you. Unless of course you are a TROLL, in which case I'm embarrased for having any dialogue with you.

An Teallach

11th Feb 2011, 21:57

The last time I saw one of these "I really love the RAF" threads it was started by a chap who PVRd within a year of starting it.

Melchett01

11th Feb 2011, 22:00

Damn it R.O.G, beat me to it. Ah what the heck.

So then Really Annoyed, just what is your big job around here - straightening chairs, unloading the paper clips when they arrive on a Monday morning. Or just sitting on the sidelines with the other fat wheezy boys and a note from matron excusing you from ops? Either that, or you were chopped from something and still haven't got over it, might explain the bitterness and chips on your shoulders. I don't think I've ever seen anyone consistently post such ill informed and worthless drivel. Either way, I'm not going to insult the REMFs by lumping you in with them.

Oh and by the way the spelling of Taleban or Taliban. Frankly it doesn't make any difference - as explained to me by a linguist in theatre. As far as we are concerned as English speakers, there is no direct translation for the word from Pashto to English, it is more or less a phonetic interpretation. However, for the sake of standardisation, an organisation will use one form of the word or another, as with any other word with multiple spellings. The HQ I work in happens to use Taleban.

Dengue_Dude

11th Feb 2011, 22:03

Really annoyed.

I think you really need a dose of serious therapy. A lot of us out here (accent on the out) have an awful lot of experience of an RAF which we loved. But most of us watched it deteriorate as it was savaged by hordes of politicians, bean counters and the like.

Our opinions and the right to express them has been earned without you disparaging any opinion that differs from yours. Is there something wrong with a civilised discussion and an exchange of views, both past and present?

I AM aware of what the title of the thread is, and for many of us it seems unusual to say the least that someone can express a sentiment like that.

If you like it in, the best of luck to you, but I would observe that you've got pretty poor expectations or particularly low standards if you love what's happening/ed to a fine Armed Service.

Many of us when we finally did go found that we wished we'd done it sooner. There are some absolute bonuses, the people, the humour, the banter and the sense of trying to get the job done, not least, the flying but by anyone's standards, the poor RAF has been ripped apart and there's more to come. I can't believe what politicians have done to it.

Why would expect us to respect your viewpoint when you don't respect anyone else's?

Melchett01

11th Feb 2011, 22:23

Oh Melchett........................
Quote:
The HQ I work in happens to use Taleban

That is probably the reason why the West will never win in Afghanistan, because you can't even get their name right.

Please provide fully referenced evidence that there is only one spelling of the word, that there have never been any alternate spellings of any form in the English language and that the version Talebanhas been authoritatively declared to be an incorrect spelling.

Seldomfitforpurpose

11th Feb 2011, 22:24

So many threads and so many posters who profess "clever" but not one of you can spot what RA is all about :rolleyes:

Shack37

11th Feb 2011, 22:42

I'd agree with what alisoncc said earlier, my time in the mob was a very happy period. Then again, at that age maybe I'd have been happy anywhere. I suspect that there are four (maybe more) groups; those who love it, like it, tolerate it and hate it. Those still serving are best placed to judge how things have changed.

So many threads and so many posters who profess "clever" but not one of you can spot what RA is all about :rolleyes:

Would appreciate enlightenment SFFP

Seldomfitforpurpose

11th Feb 2011, 23:08

Would appreciate enlightenment SFFP

I rest my case :ok:

Scuttled

12th Feb 2011, 03:17

Ummm. To answer the question, I still love my job (what's left of it), my RAF and my country.

So that's two of us. Possibly three including Really Annoyed, if you can get past his angry, angry, posting wordage.

Biggus

12th Feb 2011, 06:50

With regard to the original title of the thread, nobody could stick to it....

The thread is entitled... "Somebody else must still love being in the RAF as much as me...". However, since the original poster doesn't go on to quantify how much they love being in the RAF how can anyone state whether they also love it as much, more, less, etc..... :=

Bob Viking

12th Feb 2011, 09:34

Dengue_Dude

12th Feb 2011, 10:55

My wife is a psycho-therapist, I can probably get you a deal . . .

If you're annoyed enough to use that as a log in, you've obviously GOT issues, we're only a phonecall away 08457 90 90 90

Have fun . . . oh and by the way, it WAS that bad and I DID leave 17 years ago.

It's got much worse since. ;)

A2QFI

12th Feb 2011, 11:12

I joined in 1958 and left in 1977, mainly because I couldn't buy a house, run a car and maintain a family on £400 a month. I left and never regretted it. I rejoined, at the RAF's request, in 1991 and had a marvelous 3 years on a UAS and then had to retire at age 55 and would have stayed on if I could have. I don't think I would be happy in the RAF right now and I worked with, but not in, the RAF from 1993 to 2005 and watched it all sliding downhill to where it is now, which is not a good place, in truth

Biggus

12th Feb 2011, 11:18

CASBO,

When CRL catches up with you then you won't have points 5, 9 and possibly 2 any more...

If you are an officer then point 6 rarely applies...

Jayand

12th Feb 2011, 11:51

1. Roof over your head
2. Cheap beer
3. Place to park your car
4. Do your washing when you like
5. 3 squares a day
6. Free clothes
7. Great intranet
8. Free personal trainers
9. SPAR on base
10. The girls love it.

1. yes if you want to live in a crappy quarter with everyone from your work as your neighbours.
2. yes if you want to drink crap beer in a bar full of blokes talking baout work.
3. What in a car park? asda have them you know.
4. My washing machine does not have alloted time slots!
5. Free green or blue crap clothes.
7. hmm
8. Do you really need them? I can manage to put one foot in front of the other without help.
9. Rip off convienience store.
10. No they don't, not unless they see you as a meal ticket!

minigundiplomat

12th Feb 2011, 16:01

1. Roof over your head
2. Cheap beer
3. Place to park your car
4. Do your washing when you like
5. 3 squares a day
6. Free clothes
7. Great intranet
8. Free personal trainers
9. SPAR on base
10. The girls love it.

1. Normally leaking.
2. Pre PAYD possibly.
3. Is that the height of your aspirations? And difficult as hell at Odius.
4. And that differs from a civvy? If anything its more difficult in the Mess.
5. Congratulations youve elevated yourself from the homeless by making a gradually increasing monthly contribution.
6. Free uniform - different. Try passing the SWO having 'accessorised'.
7. Have you used it?
8. Must admit the Rehab instructors are world class. But how much assistance do you get fom a PTI outside of standing on the blue line twice a year?
9. If you can get your head round the fact they only stock brown boot polish at times, everything is overpriced and they are staffed by 'the less ambitious'.
10. Some do, some don't. A guy with a 6 pack and the gift of the gab will still manage to score without the kudos of working in clothing stores. For some girls, it is a negative factor.

dropintheoggin

12th Feb 2011, 21:16

Bob Viking, thank you. I'm with you on that.

Biggus, this much:

|-----------------------------------------------|

hval

12th Feb 2011, 21:31

@ Really annoyed,

Please will you stop this continuous drivel. You keep showing your lack of knowledge, as well as your total lack of understanding.

You complain about spelling mistakes, yet you make them. Everyone makes them. I make them. Do I care? Not particularly, as they often come about from typing on an iPhone, iPad or on the move. Also my typing is not brilliant.

As long as people understand what my point is I am happy.

As for spelling Taleban, Taliban, Neither version is wrong - what you come up with depends on which system of transliteration is used from the Arabic script.

Your ignorance, lack of understanding and abuse are astounding. What makes you so perfect and so wonderful?

As I have requested elsewhere, please will you allow people to have discussions without abuse and incorrect, irrelevant comments.

You have the ability to provide useful information and advice. Please continue to do so, as evidenced elsewhere. I would also request, politely, that you do refrain from abusing others, their information, and their opinions (other than with a sense of humour).

Hval

Pontius Navigator

13th Feb 2011, 07:06

Remember,

Ignorance is bliss and stops you being really annoyed.

Dengue_Dude

13th Feb 2011, 09:48

I still think he needs therapy . . . :O

Biggus

13th Feb 2011, 10:06

Everyone needs therapy.....it's just the amount that varies! :)

Capt P U G Wash

13th Feb 2011, 10:26

Ok try this list:

1. mates you would put your life on the line for
2. a higher cause than company profits
3. a nobler cause than personal gain
4. the banter
5. a sense of pride in 2 and 3
6. a public that (mostly) appreciates what you do
7. it’s still a lifestyle (not a bad one) more than a job

the previous lists were all about material things..

However, it is the sense of worth that is perhaps slipping and that is making the material things more significant for many, especially the older ones who have different needs.

Unfortunately, any talk of military covenants has been used to try and mask the significant changes we have been forced to swallow.

We need to see through those (we didn’t join to be rich after all), seek fair recompense and restore the sense of worth.

It is the younger ones joining I feel for most, we owe them strong leadership (all of us, not just the seniors) and a legacy they can carry forward.

PFMG

13th Feb 2011, 12:00

Or an alternative view:

1. mates you would put your life on the line for - you clearly don't work with the civil serpants of **** PT (add any platform or project you like)

2. a higher cause than company profits - but no bonus scheme for ensuring such cause is successfully on target

3. a nobler cause than personal gain - wife and 3 kids; I can't get too moralistic about this one

4. the banter - equal ops and the pc crowd put paid to that about 10 years ago

5. a sense of pride in 2 and 3 - sorry that's just a repeat

6. a public that (mostly) appreciates what you do - and a government that clearly doesn't

7. it’s still a lifestyle (not a bad one) more than a job - if only

VinRouge

13th Feb 2011, 12:12

2. a higher cause than company profits
Its a shame that the 'company' doesnt spend enough in ensuring we have the correct manpower and tools to do the job with which we are tasked.

And to be honest, I am not entirely sure our current "cause" is anything other than positioning for saving face - of our political masters.

Tiger_mate

13th Feb 2011, 12:13

A new trait for 2011:

Your boss communicating to you on behalf of the system with absolute distain written all over his face because he knows that what is occuring is morally wrong. An event that is to be repeated at units far and wide in the coming months.

The comment: "Think yourself lucky you've got a job", being spoken routinely.

I read with some interest this week that the UK Middle Classes do not appreciate the economic Tsunami that is about to drown them.. At least threads such as this suggest a degree of realism amongst my fellow servicemen. Most complaints on these pages are (IMHO) born of genuine concern rather then hollow whinges that the angry troll baits with. One thing for sure, the redundancies in Civil Govt be it CS or Local Councils are so numerous that the newspaper headlines before the years out will have a field day about how the Coalition Govt has elevated the umemployed statistics to a whole new level.

My only real regret? I knew very well that the Govt purse was empty in about 1990 and never took the hint to deploy anchor on my own expenditure. The writing was on the wall and I couldnt see it; perhaps because I wasnt looking. ....and we cannot fiscally afford another day at war.

Alber Ratman

15th Apr 2011, 21:57

Despite all the bullsh1t going on at the moment I still love it. I'll whinge with the best of them but the fact is that I get to fly a fast jet every day and I think that's pretty cool!
That doesn't mean I think everythng is perfect and my opinion won't change in the future but as it stands right now I'm pretty happy!
Standing by for the next wave of hyperbole from all the miserable gits!

And Bob, you were one of the guys that made it worthwhile... The Mr Accountant came along and spoiled it.. With AVM (I'm the B******* who is shuting you down) Anikin! I ended up working with BAE Waste-o-space.. A bigger bunch of wasters you will never find.. However MoD sold out lock stock and two smoking 27mm Mausers.. :eek:

Saying that, I followed the message from the D-Reg... He banged out to the ScareBus and I banged out to fix them..

Samuel

15th Apr 2011, 23:16

The very last time I walked into an Officers Mess bar, past a small group of our winged brothers, I was about to pay for my beer when one of them came over and paid it for me, with the comment "I believe I owe you a pint or two". What he was referring to was that he had been involved in a serious RTA which had killed two others in the car, and while he was in A and E at the local hospital, I was dragged out of bed by no less a person than the CO himself, accompanied by the MO, and asked if I wanted to volunteer to give blood to Flt Lt *****.

I have a comparatively rare blood group, less than 1% of the population, which reduces even further because not all of that 1% are registered blood donors, but I was the same as they guy to whom I was about to donate.

He was very ill, with life threatening injuries, but made it back to flying, but eventually went to Medical School at Otago University, and has been a Doctor for many years now. He does medicals for potential pilots among other things!

That beer was one of the best-tasting I'd ever had, and the feel-good factor goes on for ever, but that is what being a part of a brilliant bunch of people meant....or used to until the bloody bean-counters stuffed it all up!

3 bladed beast

16th Apr 2011, 05:45

There are some really good guys and gals in the RAF. After that i'm starting to struggle to type what is good.

Personally, l like the way that they have made cuts in terms of finance for us, and also in numbers in the forces. THEN ask us to do more. We are looking at 6 months away a year at least.

It's not all about us as individuals, but also the family/wifes/girlfriends that have their life messed about as well.

Then, when promotion isn't likely ( not that I want it) we are told we have to be competitive, take on extra duties, put in the extra effort. All of which means less time at home, more stress and a poor quality of life.

Still, at least i get my pension at 38 in 5 years time......oh, thats right, that could change too........

Rant over.

Melchett01

16th Apr 2011, 10:52

Still, at least i get my pension at 38 in 5 years time......oh, thats right, that could change too........

Rant over

And assuming you do get your pension, and if the promotions lottery comes up, you could find yourself getting shafted with a huge tax bill for your efforts over the years to do well and make a career.

I can't think of any other organisation that rewards its people by giving them a huge tax bill (7K in one case I have heard of) to go with the promotion.

Mahogany_Bomber

16th Apr 2011, 12:29

Having just come to this thread please allow me a moment of Pashto pedantry. As has been mentioned before, the issue of spelling Pashto words in English is caused by variations in transliterating (ie representing Pashto script with the English alphabet) one language to another.

Taliban/Taleban = طالبان

In order to better match the Pashto pronunciation it would actually be better rendered as Talibaan (to rhyme with barn) but we don't seem to like the long "a" - Kaabul becomes Kabul to westerners. There isn't even a single western transliteration for the word Pashto, پښتو Pashto, Pashtu, Pushtu, Pakhto and Pukhto are all used dependent on the dialect used by the native speaker.

Enough digression and back to the original question. I agree with the sentiment that when the RAF is good it is very good and that the converse also applies. For me at the moment the good outweighs the bad and as long as that continues I'll be happy to stay in. That said, I think that for me that tipping point will come sooner rather than later.

MB

Dengue_Dude

16th Apr 2011, 15:37

Therapy is still an option . . . it's just that the government has withdrawn the funding for it.

. . . but love is not having to say you're sorry (apologies to Ali MacGraw).

MechGov

16th Apr 2011, 22:15

Somebody else must still love being in the RAF as much as me...

Nope, sorry. Not me

John M

17th Apr 2011, 16:19

I love the Royal Air Force dearly. It educated me not only in life but in a profession which I still work in 33 years later. It refined a sense of discipline and respect, which had been started by my parents. It gave me the ability and confidence to be part of a professional team and, latterly, to lead a team. It wrapped me in a sense of community and belonging which I have yet to find the equal of. The people I served with were, in many ways and at different times, my mother, my father and my siblings. I have no shame in saying that the day I left I cried like a baby.
I love the Royal Force but I HATE what the politicians and the money men with not an ounce of military ethos have been allowed to do to it. This is made all the worse by the fact that I now work for the Royal Air Force and I know that the vast majoriy of personnel still hold the ethos which I remember but you can only kick a dog so often till he bites back. Please excuse any spelling mistakes, my emotions are running high and I appear to have some grit in my eye.

John

minigundiplomat

17th Apr 2011, 17:13

Somebody else must still love being in the RAF as much as me...

Nor me. PVR in and counting the days.

Diablo Rouge

17th Apr 2011, 17:32

MGD:- How many days/months have you been given to serve? ....& your terms or theirs? A good friend in a similar position (PVR) has to do 6 months despite being NCA targeted for redundancy and with a job to go to. Is the ODH average NCA PVR of 6 crewmen at any one time still extant? This says much about for the SH Force, and I am sure the background logic has much in common with others who have walked before you.

Good Luck; hope the grass is a nicer shade on the other side.

Dengue_Dude

17th Apr 2011, 17:40

Good Luck; hope the grass is a nicer shade on the other side.

Well it was for me, several times over. 'Outside' was just that, it wasn't particularly scary, and you had (have) more control over your own destiny.

I only wish I'd done it sooner.

Even when I was made redundant (3 times), it's turned out better than it was previously.

So . . . this is one case where the grass really IS greener.

I don't expect you to believe me, you wouldn't know until you tried it.

Tiger_mate

17th Apr 2011, 17:41

MiniGun. Didn't see that one coming. Assume this is very recent news. Best of luck for whatever the future brings for you. That is two PVR at :mad: that I am aware of in the last week, the other being a groundy FS and I know of several with hovering fingers on their keyboards.

covec

17th Apr 2011, 17:51

No on 4 counts:

1. Too many "politically aware" Senior Officers.

2. Too FJ focussed to the detriment of other fleets. (Maybe we should hand over SH to the Marines or AAC then).

3. Too Stats driven e.g Office for Performance Measuring.(!)

4. Too much focus on "business ethos" e.g. Business speak "lets hoist this idea up the mainmast".

wokkamate

17th Apr 2011, 19:50

the Odiham flood gates are about to open!

Tiger_mate

17th Apr 2011, 20:41

Wokka: You say that as if anybody gives a sh1t, but I suspect that there will be some at HW who gloat at those individuals lining up for those gates doing their job for them. ....and the new blood that arrives every couple of months feed the pyramid nicely. The only people that will miss the 'experience' are the guys who themselves are on the sqns, not the 'system'. One way or another there is a shortage of QHCI in the making and that could hurt Odiham Plc.

minigundiplomat

17th Apr 2011, 21:03

Tiger Mate,

Many thanks. For me there is an element of being nibbled to death by ducks, but overall, I want to go and do something new.

MGD

diginagain

17th Apr 2011, 21:13

Best of luck, MGD. It's a big leap, but you're going to have to do it one day. Now seems as good a time as any.

Winchweight

18th Apr 2011, 06:54

Here's how it went when I did it last year:

Wife says - " You just getting older and more hacked off. You are gaining no new skills or experiences. If you stay you'll just be older and less employable". And she is right... She missed out fatter....

Decision made!

If you PVR the ROS is 6 months. However, during your resettlement you can work for your new employer on a pre-employment training, work-up type deal but you can't be paid by them until in your final leave & terminal leave phase. At which point you can receive a golden hello as well as your salary.

Additionally, once you PVR you can then GEN APP requesting to be released early if you have a job to go to and can provide some form of justification (service interest) etc.

I (43 y.o. SH MACR(on PAS)) PVR'd on 31st Jul 10, last working day was 16th Sept 10, first day in new job was 4th Oct 10 (in Spain) and final day in RAF was 25th Dec 10, at which point I had been working in new job for nearly 3 months. Total flash to bang of just under 5 months.

Gratuity was paid 16th Jan 11 and pension is paid 19th of each month.

AFCS payout for neck injury took fully 6 months to process, although the medics took all blame for injury away from NVG and flying and credited it to CCS Respirator drills!:D

Jabba_TG12

18th Apr 2011, 07:32

"You're just getting older and more hacked off. You are gaining no new skills or experiences. If you stay you'll just be older and less employable".

Exactly the same mindset I had back in 1999, almost to the word, when I PVR'd after 16 years. And, despite the redundancies that have happened in the big wide world after that, it was still absolutely the right decision at the right time for the right reasons, given those circumstances.

No regrets. I gave my most formative working years of my life to the RAF and in return it gave me a mindset, an ethic that has served me well compared to some of my contemporaries. When I have been out of work outside, it has been for less than six weeks at a time, even when times were crap.

But, I'm glad I served when I did and not now. Even if you take out the rose tinted nostalgia that some of us are given to and are objective about it, I would venture that now is not a particularly pleasant time to be serving. Not from what I've been seeing and hearing for the last 4 years.

Halton Brat

18th Apr 2011, 07:44

I guess I was just lucky; joined as a Rigger Brat (1971) age 16yrs+2days, promoted Sgt age 22 (on the back of an ill-judged redundancy programme & new non-passable promotion exam, which I somehow passed), Chief Tech age 29. Career brakes were then applied by Mikhael Gorbachov & his Glasnost & Perestroika notions.

As I coasted towards my age 40/22yr point, I realised that being in the RAF is like being at a super party; but like all parties, there is a time to leave - before you:

1. Drink way too much
2. Make a pass at the hostess (wife of Best Pal)
3. Have a fist fight in garden with Best Pal due to item 2 above
4. Wake up with re-arranged facial features next morning
5. Wish you had departed party when you had the first inclination to

So, I duly resisted the temptation to sign-on to age 47 (not a good age for a new career), and departed for the broad sunlit uplands of civil aviation. 16 yrs post-RAF, I'm now a freelance EASA licensed engineer (though I prefer the term 'technical prostitute'). In my 10yrs freelancing, I have survived 9/11, SARS, sundry wars & the present financial trauma. I have only been unemployed by choice, and I do very well thank you.

Some unsolicited advice for my light blue/dark blue/brown a/c engineering bretheren who are contemplating life beyond the Service (by choice or otherwise):

1. Be not afraid
2. Start NOW to study for your EASA licences. It will take you about 12-18 months to climb this mountain
3. You will not make a serious income in civil aviation if you ignore item 2 above
4. Buy yourself a B737NG or Airbus 319/20/21 Type Rating course (c2.5kGBP)
5. Look forward to continuous, well-paid employment (regular or freelance)

You guys & gals are ahead of the competition, simply by being who you are. I wish you all the very best of luck; but remember, you can make your own luck. As our Seat/Stick Interface bretheren say "YOU HAVE CONTROL".

Tiger_mate

18th Apr 2011, 08:47

now is not a particularly pleasant time to be serving. Not from what I've been seeing and hearing for the last 4 years.

Its not; and servicemen now fall into three distinct categories:

1) Those that are cruising home to a pretty good pension riding the storm with thoughts of outragious good times now long gone.

2) Those so new as to not know any different.

3) ...and those I feel sorry for. Who had a taste of the good times only to see them dissappear before their eyes all too prematurely. Who must now make the decision to grin and bare it or make off into a second and unplanned career which may not be any better then riding the storm.

Wensleydale

18th Apr 2011, 10:08

I can't think of any other organisation that rewards its people by giving them a huge tax bill (7K in one case I have heard of) to go with the promotion.

...and the military is the only organisation where you have to give a watch back when you retire.:sad:

Jabba_TG12

18th Apr 2011, 10:27

Hear hear TM. Concur absolutely.

Grumpy106

18th Apr 2011, 10:30

Yes, I still love being part of the RAF, despite the fact that I am in complete non-job (which, thankfully, is being disestablished) and am missing life on the front line. The people that I work with are top-drawer, and are the only thing that makes coming into work worthwhile. I can safely say that is the case for every bunch of people with whom I have worked (with the odd exception, obviously) and that is what has, and I believe always will, set us apart from civvy-street. A wise man once told me that we are always only one posting away from a PVR, and I have thought long and hard about what I will do if I am not sent to what I consider to be a worthwhile job for my next tour. Should I go I will miss the spirit, ethos, sociability, humour and sensibilty of the RAF which, despite the best efforts of Gordon Brown and the incompetents who have been running MOD for the last few decades, they cannot take away from us. Mrs G106 retired from the mob a while ago, and she is constantly astounded by the lack of appreciation of what the military does for this country, and also the sheer lack of common sense amongst the vast number of civvies she comes into contact with. At least in the RAF you can always rely on a certain standard of intelligence and an understanding of what you are trying to achieve.

Tashengurt

18th Apr 2011, 10:56

Six months notice to PVR!! Luxury. When I went on '95 I had to give 18 months!! They rubbed salt in by offering me promotion after 15 months. I declined as I'd already got a place at uni which I'd had to defer for a year. Wouldn't have minded if I'd been some all singing and dancing trade but I was a bloody Squipper! Hardly difficult to replace.

Melchett01

18th Apr 2011, 23:36

For a thread that could have easily descended into a bunfight, this has been surprisingly restrained. On the one hand, it is nice not to feel as though I'm stumbled into the NAFFI over on ARRSE, but equally, the tone of many of the recent posts is rather depressing. A sense of resignation and despondancy seems to ooze from many of the posts, almost as though the spirit and fight which has got the RAF through many a fix over the years has now gone, having been thoroughly kicked out of many individuals through cuts, bureaucratization, politicization and a non-stop thrashing with no end to any of these things in sight, and all for little reward or gain in terms of career and family.

I agree with John M in loving the RAF dearly; it was the only thing I ever had my heart set on doing, but right now, I'm really struggling to see what future there is. With an option point looming in the next few years, I will have to make a decision - and soon. I could stay in for the long haul, have a stab at the full career thing, and if the wind blows in the right direction and the postings and promotions chicken bones and runes fall in the right direction, could I suppose have a half-decent career. Plus the job security would be very nice, and at the end of the day, the bank manager is only really interested in what cold hard cash I can send his way each month, so economics does have some say.

But more importantly than that, the nagging thought that has been running through my head these past few months is if I do stay, what will I actually get out it. We are shrinking, opportunities are getting fewer and fewer and as Jabba said what new skills or experience am I getting from this? Will the next 20+ years be a rotation of uninspiring staff jobs that just seem to be about shuffling paper for the sake of it, and deep down in your heart you know full well that if the paper wasn't shuffled life would go on and nothing would fall over. In short, I fear that the RAF has become the sort of unfullfilling, Reggie Perin-esque job that I specifically joined up to avoid :bored:

In short, and to answer the exam question no I'm not particularly enjoying it and I feel that along with many on this thread my enthusiasm and will to fight has pretty much evaporated in recent years. It's a hard thing to admit to - that the one thing you always wanted to do is actually turning to a bag of spanners and there is little you can do about it. I suspect that I and a lot of individuals I work with are sitting there thinking the similar thing. At a recent briefing from a VSO, the line was that the RAF will be an excellent place to be in 2020. Unfortunately, that line was immediately caveated with unless we fck it up royally between now and then and everyone leaves. I really don't envy their job of trying to keep hold of their combat experienced personnel at the rate things are going. Now would be a really really good time for some inspirational senior leadership to stick its head above the parapet.

Rector16

19th Apr 2011, 07:04

Melchie - I hear your pain. Big decision to make to commit decades to the RAF; life is not a rehearsal etc etc.

Can I offer a crumb or 2 of comfort? You seem to see the RAF as 2 separate entities - the flying bit (Hoorah) and the staffing bit (Booh). My experience is that it isn't that simple. I opted for the career bit - did 5 tours on the front line (saw the world, inflicted military violence on the Queen's enemies, queued at Brize etc etc), but also did some of the staffwork (MoD, PJHQ, NATO, acronym after acronym). My experience is that the 2 sides are different; but they aren't good v bad, just different.

The key point has already been made - the people are the key. I've continued to work with some great people; I've even had the priveledge of commanding some of them - it's worth a dozen ground tours. I've also had the chance to see how Govt 'works', why politicians do what they do and why NATO works like it does. Easy to put some brackets after some of the last few words, but the reality is that, once you understand how and why things work, it all starts to make sense. It also makes you realise that there's a whole lot more to life and the RAF than the simple flying bit (great though that is/was).

Depressed about living in post-SDSR RAF? Yes, of course I am - it's disappointing when your Govt doesn't understand what they are doing to your RAF. But I suspect that it feels the same in the NHS, Civil Service, Teaching, etc etc - the difference is, we've still got great people who love doing what they're doing! :D

Jabba_TG12

19th Apr 2011, 07:43

M01:

I empathise with you, absolutely. Its not necessarily a decision that we all have to come to, but its something that we all have to give some consideration to. You're right, if the promotion, if the postings, if... but ultimately, you'll know absolutely in your own mind when you've arrived at that crossroads and when you'll need to start weighing things up as to what you're going to do next and whether continuing in the service is the right option.

I took the decision that I did in the summer of 1998 when you used to have to give a years notice as a non-commissioned after having served 12 years. The tipping point for me was despite being qualified to the next rank, there had been a er... disconnect, shall we say, at trade management level as to how many SNCO's they needed to run IUKADGE/ICCS and how much the power of networking would allow them to carry out the post cold war AD task remotely, allowing them to close many sites. Despite having cleared out a lot of the dead wood in the 93-94 redundancies, there was almost immediately following that a rush to promote candidates to SNCO in the anticipation they would be needed to fill SOC's & CRC's that never transpired in the end, thereby creating a whole new generation of dead mans shoes posts and a promotion diamond instead of a pyramid. In addition to that, the post that I was in at Bentley Priory was giving me good IT Ops experience, but the emerging PC networking technology was being hogged by Jafads and the Chf Tech SNCO IC wouldnt send us on the appropriate courses to run the kit because "you'd all PVR"... didnt stop him sending his own lads on those same courses which led to exactly the same outcome. They PVR'd as well!

So, I thought, I've got potentially another seven years of this, being sent to the Falklands every two years - amazing how many pregnancies and dodgy knees prevented people from doing their fair share - and next to no chance of advancement or further developing my skills beyond what I self studied and the likelyhood of being sent back into the trade for which a lot of the gloss had gone off. So I thought, I can either stick this out, come out at 40 with a pension, but an out of date skillset and have more trouble finding work, or I can go for it now, good current skillset and a chance to make up the difference by the time I would have reached pensionable age.

That was the tipping point for me. Others stayed in for the full 22, still found work at the end of it and they too have no regrets about how they played it.

Ultimately all our circumstances are different, our aims different, and levels of expectation are different. So long as you can say that when you come to that crossroads that you hand on heart made what you believe to be the right decision for you and your family based on the information available to you and the circumstances at the time, your conscience can be clear. Being de-institutionalised at the end of your term is not as scary as it may seem, but you have to seize the day and take charge of your life and go for it.

Personally, although I made mates for life, learned so much and have so many memories that I will treasure, I've never looked back. And I wouldnt have changed a thing either.

And regarding your last line:

"Now would be a really really good time for some inspirational senior leadership to stick its head above the parapet."

Hell yes. From the very very top, not just in the service, but from No10 downwards. The lack of inspirational leadership and the politicisation of the upper echelons of not only the services, but the police, the civil service, the whole shooting match has been one of the most corrosive, damaging things that I have seen in the last 30 years and the impact has been felt all the way down the line to the ordinary Joe in the street. As a nation we need that inspirational leadership more than ever and it pains me to say that not only is it not at the table now, theres not even the remotest sign of it being on the horizon, immediate or otherwise. That for me, is one of the saddest things of all... so much lost and wasted and thrown away for the want of true leaders rather than political place-men.

jindabyne

19th Apr 2011, 08:42

Jabba

AMEN to your final words!

Kengineer-130

19th Apr 2011, 17:04

Well.... I am 24 hours short of 12 years service, upon which I will walk out of the main gate, never to look back.

Have I had a good time? Mainly yes, as a number of people have said, it's the people that make the Forces work, and I have had the luck to meet and serve with fantastic people across all trades & ranks in my time. I have also been fortunate enough to have had some great experiences that I would never have had in a civil job, some bloody scary experiences I wouldn't have had in a civil job, and learnt a lot about myself.

What is upsetting is watching the demise of the RAF from under the feet of it's loyal people, the last 2 years have been crap, and it is only going to get worse. The gripes that people have always had, have now become serious issues, and the vast amount of people now are looking out for No1, as they no longer feel the RAF cares about them.

The general attitude around the whole station where I have been based, (secret soon to be gone Wilts airbase) is despondancy,and from what I have seen, the donkeys back is broken, and people are no longer willing to go "above & beyond" to make things happen. The "can do" attitude has become " won't do" as it only serves to harm you in the long run, so people are just letting the system take it's course.

The amount of quality people leaving the service will bite hard in the near future, and I feel quite lucky that I am leaving just at the right time, as the ship is sinking, & sinking fast :(

I have had a great time, but it is definatly the right time to be going :(.. If you are still in, enjoy what you can and stay safe :ok:

[email protected]

20th Apr 2011, 10:32

In 82, when I joined, the recruiting poster of choice was the one with a pilot at the front of an expanding pyramid of support: engineers, ATC, supply etc - all there to ensure that the 'business end' of the RAF worked and those fortunate enough to be trained to fly could concentrate on delivering exactly what the RAF was founded to provide - Air Power.

Now, still flying, that pyramid of support has been allowed to turn into a series of frustrating obstacles as little empires have flourished because the leadership hasn't had the nouse or ba**s to stop them.

Now it is IT, MT, JPA and PTs who constantly raise problems, invent new rules or protocols - all in a self-serving and self-aggrandising manner and all of which erode the quality of life in what should be the best job in the world.

I still get to fly, teach and examine which is enormously rewarding but the rest of the interminable routine of stats-chasing, blue screen of death, matrix tests and 'you can't do that because.....' is just pis8ing everyone I know off and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

RAF in 2020 a great place to be???? Well I can't see how without a sea change of attitude.

Fox3WheresMyBanana

20th Apr 2011, 23:13

Having left in '93, it's very interesting to read the comments of those still in. I would agree that 99% (at least) of the managers/leaders in civvy street are muppets. Even where they have some principles, the lack of training means they don't know how to achieve their objectives. Fortunately one's Service experience makes it very easy to get them to go away and leave you to do your job in peace.
The imminent civilianisation of the Service, drop in flying hours and incompetant politicians were the reasons I (and others) PVRed post Cold War.
I still feel great pride in what the RAF represented then, and have no doubts that there are a lot of d#mn good people still in doing their best to keep something going.
Sadly the Government managed to trash my second career also (teaching), so I've sloped off to Canada. Everybody here still has a sense of decency and a lot of common sense. They also respect their military.
I do think that politicians only react when they have to, and large numbers leaving would be the only way to achieve that. Reasoning doesn't work, protest doesn't work, trying to ignore them doesn't work. Ghandi had it right - mass non-co-operation is effective. That isn't achieveable within the Service, so the only option is to leave.