OAA, CTC, CABAIR Which Integrated Course [Archive]

giggitygiggity

8th Feb 2011, 23:45

Does Cabair offer any sort of airline partnership scheme? I haven't looked at Cabair in much detail, but between OAA and CTC, I feel that CTC offer the most promising job finding solution (note: I didn't use the words 'ideal' or 'perfect'). Aside from perhaps a direct sponsorship by an airline, it is arguably your best chance at gaining a job at the end of the various intergrated training programs.

It's maybe worthwhile looking at the FlyBe scheme running at the moment, they invited me along to an assessment day/weekend but I declined as I felt training for an ATPL would be more valuable in the job market than an airline specific MPL if anything were to happen to the sponsor airline.

Oxford still has a very good reputation, when I told my flying school that I was going to do an intergrated course, the first thing they said was "Oh, is that at Oxford?". I feel that CTC is the correct choice for me there is at least a slim possibility I may get a job at the end of it. Something no other training providers can specifically offer.

GA Button

9th Feb 2011, 00:16

If you're young, free and single don't bother with any of them.

Go and find a job you enjoy almost as much as you think you will flying, but which you can walk in and out of. Build up your qualifications in modules and in the meantime makes loads of friends at various airfields. The sort of mates you'll probably know for the rest of your life and who you will share amazing aviation related experiences with (whilst getting very drunk and having a right old laugh). Do some instructing, some para dropping, fly as many different kinds of aircraft as you can (preferably in one day!). Be stony broke but not give a toss because you're in an enviroment and doing stuff you love more than life itself. One day (and the time flies) someone with a bit of influence will notice what a well rounded sort of person you are, with plenty of flying experience and damn nice to know. They will shove you in a certain direction - air taxi or regional turbo prop. Go with it and embark on a whole new, breathtaking learning process. Soak it all up and come to appreciate all that time you were worried you were wasting doing the above was in fact priceless. Enjoy getting to grips with the serious side of flying. Before too much more time elapses you will find yourself in a jet, hopefully employed by someone who does actually care about you and respects your experience and as you progress deeper into your career you will always look back on those early days with huge fondness and appreciate what you learnt and how you learnt it.

Then one day you will find yourself writing an impassioned diatribe (probably full of bad spellings and grammar) on a public forum trying to convince someone that some things are worth taking your time over for the amount of pleasure you will gain, and that you shouldn't be in a rush to spend all your money quickly when you can spend it slowly and get so much more back.

Just a thought...... Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

CharlieFly

9th Feb 2011, 00:23

Mad Jock,

Please explain, because as far as I'm aware the situation is a bit better than every one makes out. We are currently in a slow period, which is getting better after about 4 years of real hardship. yes there are a lot of pilots currently out of work however I wont be qualified for at least 15 months.

In 15 months the economy will have picked up and thoes qualified pilots will have found jobs. Some will have retired some will have lost their medical cert.

Asia is the fastest and largest growing economy and is not showing any signs of slowing in any sector, especially tourism as more of the people can afford to travel. As international flight is still ruled by the english language, pilots will always be forced, and for that matter ATC's, to speak english so working from Honk Kong or Beijing would be a problem.

I am in the fortunate situation where I have the £70K to spend on training and will not be in Debt when i finish, but even if i was surely with hard work an persistence the jobs are out there.

Why in you opinion are the integrated courses so bad?

CharlieFly

9th Feb 2011, 00:31

GA Button, you said "Go and find a job you enjoy almost as much as you think you will flying, but which you can walk in and out of."

If I could I would - but to be honest I can't

I'm 29, well educated, and a little lost. I cannot find a job in the industry which I have spent 10 years getting experience. however I am fortunate enough to have made some money.

So I'm looking for a career change and without seeming blind sighted, would it not be easier to do an integrated course in a shorter period of time and then have a qualification than stretch it out over a much longer period to achieve the same goal?

mad_jock

9th Feb 2011, 00:34

Asia you require hours to quaify for a work permit in asia.

There are hundreds if not thousands of 737 drivers out there so much so as a turboprop captain I was earning more than a 737 skipper because of supply and demand in my last company.

There are thousands of 200 hour wannabies out there.

You can have 70k but realistically you need 120k as an intergrated student to pay for the ryan type rating.

Crack on and go for it but please be aware the only thing you are doing is helping the airlines out with keeping training capacity operational in europe.

GA Button

9th Feb 2011, 00:51

Despatch riding worked for me :)

My disclaimer was, of course, the very first line of my rhetoric. Having said that, if you are looking for a career change is there any harm in taking your time to sink into it and make sure it's really for you? You're going to spend the money either way so why not give yourself the option and do it slowly with the ability to either back out or speed up the process because of your cash reserves? You also won't have the intense pressure an integrated course will probably put you under and therefore more time to relax and enjoy ;)

HidekiTojo

9th Feb 2011, 01:04

Go and spend your 70 grand Charlie, join the long line of lemmings. In all probability you will not get a flying job in the next 2-5years. Even if you do it will be at Ryanair so you'll need another well 30-40k?!

Go to Oxford It's an extra 10k but you'll have more fun. Avoid Cabair unless your 'tough' in a mental sense.

Hmm actually 70k ain't gong to get you very far…You'll need at least 100k to stand a chance.

CharlieFly

9th Feb 2011, 10:41

I just don't understand why everyone is so negative about the integrated route.

Ok I get that the initial 65K is a lot of money but is this type of intensive training good for a new pilot. Learning everything in a short space of time thus not having time to forget anything or become complacent or pick up bad habits.

And with so hard work - good results and the right attitude there must be jobs out there.

No one on this forum is saying don't train to become a pilot they are only saying don't do it integrated because of the cost I suppose.

So Modular would take me between 2 and 4 years depending on how quickly i took it all and Integrated would take between 1 and 2 years.

Modular would cost between 50 - 70K to get to fATPL with around 300hrs.
Integrated would cost between 65 - 80K for the same.

If I am being really dumb please spell it out but as I have the money and time available why is the Integrated route so bad

HidekiTojo you say avoid CABAIR unless you are mentally tough, surely that is a trait desired from an airline in their pilots? And secondly surely a tough school is better than one that will just let you swan through without pushing you and the airlines will know that also.

FlyingPhilA

9th Feb 2011, 12:57

giggitygiggity

9th Feb 2011, 13:01

I think that many may have a chip on their shoulder because they have struggled to find work as some airlines have favored integrated students over the modular guys, this might explain why some forum members brand you stupid without knowing anything about you or your financial situation because they feel downtrodden. The increase in fuel costs has had a big impact on the cost of modular courses whereas CTC's costs have not increased that dramatically, although the number of hours in of real flying has reduced over the years to a minimum.

Some points made by the anti-integrated brigade are good though. They point out that the realistic costs of the course a little higher than the £69k CTC tells you will need to get an frozen ATPL and a job. I would not start the course without £95,000 of finance at your disposal, and say another £25k for a TR if that becomes necessary. But you must make sure that £120k is available, be it through personal wealth or the bank if it is willing to lend to you.

Edited : To make sense, I appear to have lost the ability to write this week

yippy ki yay

9th Feb 2011, 13:12

If you want to do it, go for it. In my opinion the industry is on the up. By the time you start the course it could be 6 months, add a year and half for training and that will bring you out in 2 years when, I believe, the industry will be in a much better position than it is now. I wouldve said now is a good time to start. If you're thinking of OAA/CTC (can't speak about cabair as don't know much about it) 85k is probably too little...factoring living expenses/rent etc and the fact that there is a high chance you'll need to fund a type rating I wouldve said 120k is a safe amount to budget for. There is a risk you won't find a job but from the integrated school I trained at I believe only 9/10 are still looking out of the 60 or so that were in or finished just before/after my course.

FlexGate

9th Feb 2011, 13:15

Go for it mate.

People don't want to accept it but the economy and the Airlines are changing. These day's you won't get into Easyjet/Ryanair/British Airways when they are hiring without the words:

Intergrated
First Time Pass Rate

On that CV I appreciate that you are just 17 but...

Where on earth did you hear this? Was it at an OAA open day? That may be true if you want to get into BA but certainly not for Ryanair or Easyjet. Even BA haven't been recruiting fresh fATPL holders for a few years now and won't be for the foreseeable future, with the amount of excess pilot's there are. The Integrated route would only make sense right now if you had an airline sponsor or part-sponsor your training and take a substantial financial risk away from you (like the Flybe route through Cabair).

It makes no sense to do an Integrated course as the market stands right now. There are no airlines hiring 200houred guys, without having to pay for a type rating. If you really value your money, you would reduce the risk in this very uncertain job market and pace yourself with the job market as it moves.

Also, Integrated is not necessarily better than Modular by the way. You can complete a Modular route in the same time or even less time than an Integrated route if you structure it like an Integrated route. Yes the market could look a lot better in a year or two, but with the way the economy is going recently would you bet on it?

I think the Integrated route is great when the industry is rosy and all is well in the 200hour job market. However, this is just simply not the case right now.

Smell the Coffee

9th Feb 2011, 13:15

Charlie if you can afford the course, in the sense of being able to afford the repayments whilst waiting to get a job flying - then go for it.

You should choose the school which best suits YOU.

I work for a major UK airline which has taken on students (only integrated) from all of the schools you have mentioned.

Having spoken to the pilots involved in recruitment at the airline I work for, no particular integrated school is favoured over the other. (You didn't mention FTE, but that's irrelevant). We have SSPs from all of them.

What matters are your course results, and how you perform at any interview offered.

You need to look at training materials, results of other students, maybe attend a classroom session etc.

I would NOT make a decision based on which school you think airline XYZ likes the most ...

CharlieFly

9th Feb 2011, 13:19

giggitygiggity you said 'I would not start the course without 95,000 of available for the actual course'

taking out living expenses such as rent and food, is this still a realistic figure for the course, are there that many hidden extras?

I'm trying to budget for the course I am not trying to add in the living expenses at the moment as I don't need to worry to much about that side of things.

So assuming that I get through the course in the high percentages and first time passes, is the quoted figure from these schools accurate?

SOP79

9th Feb 2011, 13:21

My experience

used car salesman of 10 years and PPL holder, had enough jacked it in sold up and went to FTE Jerez. Loved every minute!
Worked and played hard, met loads of great people!
Interviewed day before graduation by UK airline and offered job 30 mins before graduating! have never looked back!
The airlines want the best people especially as supply is out numbering demand, so give yourself the best chance and have the training THEY prefer! But don't forget its not just the license they require, its a personality too! " could I/do I want to sit next to this person for 12 hours a day?" I think some people forget about that bit and assume they are owed a job by the airlines just because they have paid all the money for the license!
( i dont agree with being forced to buy a type rating, but its supply and demand again and cost saving in every airline so can see why its here )
Do what is best for YOU and pick the school YOU will get the most from.

Good Luck

CharlieFly

9th Feb 2011, 13:59

Smell the coffee,

Thanks for your post, I can afford the course and thats from some good savings over the last 10 years not a loan.

My query was more about the quality of the courses rather than the recruitment from airlines to be honest, if as you say the airlines look at them in basically the same light that's good news.

I'm off the CABAIR on Tuesday and Oxford on Sat to have a look round. Is CTC a good choice really - to me it just looks like a feeder for Easy and Ryan, when my ambition is to work for a long-haul carrier.

Cheers

Smell the Coffee

9th Feb 2011, 14:11

Is CTC a good choice really - to me it just looks like a feeder for Easy and Ryan, when my ambition is to work for a long-haul carrier.

To be honest, one could say the same of OAA and the other schools ... the vast majority of recent graduates that have been offered a flying job, most likely have gone to easyJet, Ryan and others - for the simple reason that they have been the only airlines recruiting fATPLs recently.

If the quality of the course is your main concern (fair enough), then it doesn't really matter whether almost all of school XYZ's graduates have gone to easy/Ryan ... you can still do the integrated course and then turn them down if that is what you want.

You may have to consider the fact that you won't be able to work for a longhaul carrier when you graduate . I'm not aware of any airlines that will recruit grads straight on to long range aircraft except as Second Officers (CX).

Best of luck.

yippy ki yay

9th Feb 2011, 14:12

I'm afraid there is almost zero chance of finishing flight training and going straight to long haul...although it does happen very occasionally. Have you tried looking at cathays cadet scheme because If that's what you want then you may as well try and do that and save yourself 100k. I'm only aware of KLM too taking cadets straight onto longhaul as relief pilots for a couple of years (like Cathay)

The African Dude

9th Feb 2011, 15:20

CTC also occasionally has options for Monarch, which will eventually allow you to fly long haul in a mixed-fleet sort of arrangement, as far as I know. However, you have to be exactly at the right place in the line when the relatively small number of openings come up.

Long haul carriers, from what I know, have been recruiting guys and girls with type rating and a certain amount of experience. These pilots seem to have come from places like Ryan and Easy, which leaves opportunities for inexperienced cadets who are able and willing to pay towards a type rating (a whole separate argument). A few years in one of these organisations puts you in a position to apply for a long-haul operator. Scroggs wrote in other posts that you cannot really learn to fly commercially in a long-haul environment, which I imagine is why Cathay Pacific operates a cadet / Second Officer scheme.

Anyway, that aside, GA Button wrote: you will find yourself in a jet, hopefully employed by someone who does actually care about you and respects your experience

...was just wondering if you could point me in the direction of said airline?? :ooh:

Good luck,

HidekiTojo

9th Feb 2011, 15:47

@charliefly - Total Muppet.

Ryan5252

9th Feb 2011, 20:38

At a risk of feeding the troll and I'll take a stab anyway, just for the craic! :}

In 15 months the economy will have picked up and thoes qualified pilots will have found jobsYou heard it here first folks!! :ugh:

If I am being really dumb please spell it out but as I have the money and time available why is the Integrated route so bad
You should go back and read some of your posts and you should see quite clearly.

Ok I get that the initial 65K is a lot of money but is this type of intensive training good for a new pilot.Read that again and try to comprehend what you are saying. "The initial 65K is alot money" I'm not going to harp on about why an Integrated course is a bad idea, I really don't have the patience and it is already well documented on these forums (and elsewhere).

The impression one gets from reading your posts is you want to an 'Airline Pilot' and seem quite willing to buy a licence. At the end of the day you will need to justify your application to any airline by way of interview - you will need to sell yourself, set yourself apart from the other thousands of applicants. I can't see how you can demonstrate a passion for the career if you 'buy' a licence - you will fool no one.

are there that many hidden extras?Everywhere!! (In the form of exam fee's, landing fee's, IAP fee's, licence issue fee's, take a dump outside scheduled dumping time fee's etc etc etc).

I am not trying to add in the living expenses at the moment as I don't need to worry to much about that side of thingsGood for you!

I genuinely do apologise if I am being a bit harsh, but you honestly give the impression that you havn't researched this even slightly, you seem quite happy to pay through the nose for a licence and to pay for your own type rating. Why should airlines recruit pilots with experience and passion when there is an endless queue of mindless **** with deep pockets who will fly for peanuts and pay for their own training??

So Modular would take me between 2 and 4 years depending on how quickly i took it all and Integrated would take between 1 and 2 years.

Modular would cost between 50 - 70K to get to fATPL with around 300hrs.
Integrated would cost between 65 - 80K for the same.
Where are you getting these figures from?

GA Button

10th Feb 2011, 00:53

African Dude - it was BMed, sadly sucked up by BMI now :{:{

HidekiTojo - was that directed at me?

giggitygiggity

10th Feb 2011, 01:08

@charliefly - To be honest, I don't know if that is a realistic figure or not as I have not started training yet. By my calculations it is, although I am prepared to budget for a type rating at a later stage if the industry deems it necessary. Of course I am hoping that aviation will be in better shape in 2-3 years time when I should have completed my training. Like you, fortunately I can afford to pay for an intergrated course myself without borrowing, so personal risk is limited. I realise it is a lot of money, although I am confident that I am making the right deciscion. The way I see it is that an intergrated course will give me the best opportunities at the end of training, either with a partner airline or without.

With regard to hidden extra's, CTC has provided us a list of things that are included and things that are not. Ryan5252 says that you must pay for exam fees, landing fees, taking a dump fees. Though I am not sure about the last item, according to my contract with CTC these are all included. If you had to resit the ATPLs there may be additional fees, but according to the CTC marketing ATPL exam failure rate is incredibly low so I shouldn't worry too much about that as an extra cost.

You should be concerned about the living expenses as it always ends up costing more than you had planned. However, going back to your original question, I think that £95,000 is a fairly realistic price (if you can avoid paying for a TR), but it is your gamble so don't quote me.

Ryan5252

10th Feb 2011, 01:41

according to the CTC marketing ATPL exam failure rate is incredibly low so I shouldn't worry too much about that as an extra cost

A job well done by CTC marketing then!:ok:

HidekiTojo

10th Feb 2011, 02:47

GA Button - Definitely not at you

giggitygiggity

10th Feb 2011, 03:06

@Ryan5252 - I thought that statement would probably raise a few eyebrows. I was going to add a disclaimer but thought i'd take the risk. Your comment suggests that you believe they are being dishonest. CTC claim the following... 99.8% pass all 14 ATPL subjects at first attempt
Average mark across all 14 subjects is 93.4%
You must give them credit, to make up these figures and sell a course based on a blatant lie would surely be legal suicide. Do you have any evidence that these figures have been falsified?

Ryan5252

10th Feb 2011, 05:58

I was going to add a disclaimer but thought i'd take the risk. Your comment suggests that you believe they are being dishonest.
I never said I believe them to be dishonest, you may want to re-read my post again. It is the job of the marketing folk to sell a product. This they seem to have accomplished by your post, therefore a job well done.

Do you have any evidence that these figures have been falsified?
Again, I'd refer you to my post on the matter and you will see that I have not suggested that figures have been falsified. You seem to have a habbit of being told one thing and hearing something which you want to hear - little wonder you seem to have been so easily sold by CTC :=

I thought that statement would probably raise a few eyebrows.
A better use of your time may be to contact CTC, as well as the other established Intergrated FTO's (of which there are many), and ask outright, in plain english what percentage of the pilots who have graduated in the last 3 years have secured employement? What is the mean waiting time between graduation and gaining employment? You should then be in a position to establish how many have gained employment and how many are job hunting. It would be interesting also to learn how many of those who have not gained employment have renewed their SEP/MEP or IR ratings considering they also have a substantial debt to look after.

Ryan

giggitygiggity

10th Feb 2011, 06:55

Sorry, it seemed to me that due to your earlier hostility towards integrated training programs that dishonesty was implied; I did indeed use the phrase 'your comments suggest'. However, if I was mistaken, then I apologise. That aside, there is no need to be rude about myself or any of the other 'mindless ****' that are prepared to pay for their training.

You know as well as I do that if I call the FTOs, I will not hear a lot of positive news regarding their employment statistics for the last 3 years; so there is no point in me doing so. Surely the same is true for modular or integrated students. If you are so convinced that commercial flying training is a bad idea, then why are you on this forum? This topic was supposed to be about comparing the merits of the various integrated FTOs and doesn't require your nonconstructive input.

Ryan5252

10th Feb 2011, 07:17

However, if I was mistaken, then I apologise.
No need to apologise, we're just having an open and frank discussion. It's healthy! ;)
there is no need to be rude about myself or any of the other 'mindless ****' that are prepared to pay for their training.

I didn't. I certainly didn't direct that to any particular member, perhaps you could show me you came to the conclusion I was directly insulting you? I am referring to what I consider to be the 'cancer' of aviation - people 'pilots' who have no reservation in throwing good money after bad with a view to getting an airline job even if it means paying for their own TR or even P2F. To me this shows little self respect, it is the only industry in the world where people will happily financially cripple themselves for a job! There are other jobs! Just to be clear, this is not aimed at you specifically or indeed any cadet, student or graduate of an Integrated course, but they do exist.

You know as well as I do that if I call the FTOs, I will not hear a lot of positive news regarding their employment statistics for the last 3 years; so there is no point in me doing so.

Agreed, but you cannot ignore the very real risk that is faced by everyone going down this route. It needs to be addressed and mitigated as much as possible, not to do so would be entirely reckless.

Surely the same is true for modular or integrated students.
No! This is the point many people have made before - by going down the modular route one is mitigating their risk by earning their fATPL on a pay as you go scheme. PPL - ATPL theory - CPL - ME - IR - MCC. The advantage to this is one can generally complete this while retaining their current employment which provides the security of not only being in a position to pay back any possible debt accrued (which would be tiny compared to the integrated route) as well as being in a position to remain current and to renew ratings as and when required. Compare this to the average guy coming out of a fast-track course - he will have no immediate job, the clock starts ticking on his loan and on his ratings. It is 100% a make it or break it point - either he gets a job and can pay everything off - slowly, or he doesn’t and tries to find a 'normal' job just to keep his head above the water on loan repayments but cannot even afford to fly SEP never mind think about renewing an IR down the line!

If you are so convinced that commercial flying training is a bad idea, then why are you on this forum?
I don't. But I am convinced that Integrated training is risky for the reasons I have outlined above. I myself have no intention of airline flying as there is more to aviation than this kind of flying for me.

This topic was supposed to be about comparing the merits of the various integrated FTOs and doesn't require your nonconstructive input.
I apologise if you find my input non constructive - but you should be able to make an informed decision on what is right for you. We all are at different places in life both personally and financially and Modular probably isn't for everyone; it takes a serious amount of self discipline to dedication to see through to the end. Equally, Integrated isn't for everyone either.

What say you?

giggitygiggity

10th Feb 2011, 07:39

ATPL theory credits expire and people still borrow money for modular courses. The OP says he has the cash to pay for an integrated course so hopefully debt should not be a problem for him. Whether or not it is a good or bad decision personally is another issue, only the OP can decide that. You say modular is safer because you can pay as you go, if the OP has earned the money already, then that is irrelevant as he should have still budgeted accordingly. If he has the money to leave work to train, then lucky him.

I realise the 'mindless' comment was not aimed at me, but I did feel 'little wonder you seem to have been so easily sold by CTC' was. Don't worry, I won't bear a grudge! Right, bed time!

flyingguy1984

10th Feb 2011, 09:20

For what it's worth I'm going to give my opinion on the integrated course at Cabair which I had the "pleasure" of being on. I'd like to make a few points about doing an integrated course which they don't always advertise.

The duration of the course advertised is an absolute minimum, and very few complete it in that time. You have to be extremely lucky with the weather (I had to delay my CPL for nearly 3 months over Christmas), pass all of your tests in the first series and I say this regarding mandatory retraining that can be imposed if certain tests are failed. I knew people who failed the ME-CPL twice and it can get very messy with the CAA, and expensive when it's costing nearly £500 per hour to fly the twin.

I can only speak for where I trained, however what I found is that half of the instructors were pilots who had been flying for many years and that was what they did (some still better than others), and the other half were instructors who were building their hours in the hope of flying commercially one day. The result of that I believe led to regular disagreements and tension between students and instructors as it appeared they resented the fact they were instructing people who were trying to fast-track themselves into an airline. The reason I'm making this point is because I now fly with a school elsewhere for hour building and practice and the difference in the relationship with the staff and students is remarkable. Cabair may well be the exception and everywhere else is very friendly and supportive, but seeing as the original poster mentioned Cabair I thought it was worth saying.

Don't just visit Cabair on one of their open days! Make sure you go individually and talk to the students, ask them about waiting times for aircraft and how many hours they are doing per week. Also, ask the management whether any groups of sponsored students are going to start when you are, as despite what they say, you will get pushed back as they have strict deadlines for completion from their respective airlines. On the open days all of the red carpet is rolled out, they treat you to a fancy buffet in a building that has nothing to do with Cabair, and won't show you the real state of the place, the crew room in prefabs, the grotty class rooms which are freezing in winter and boiling in summer. I never wanted luxury of any kind, but when you're paying 70-80k for a course, well need I say any more? You get better facilities at a city college.

I could go on all day about Cabair but I won't, I will happily admit I made the mistake of doing an integrated course. In hindsight, I should have gone modular and worked my way through it. However, I'm trying to make the best of it. Luckily I got a job the week before I took my IR, so have been able to keep earning money, and I try to save up to pay my bills, and do a couple of hours of SEP flying each month. I work in a large place and there are lots and lots of people who want to go flying so they pay for the hours as well. I'm not prepared to fork out 20-30k for a type rating unless I have a solid contract at the end of it. I've realised that only the lucky few leave an integrated course and get a job straight away and although I would love to be flying commercially right now, I'm actually appreciating the value of building up my experience the hard way. I'm starting to enjoy flying again as the experience of a FATPL is so intensive that it almost stops being enjoyable and that is one reason why I'd argue for modular. I think the integrated course was designed to provide ready pilots to the airlines, yet in practice it has been exploited by both the FTO's and the airlines alike. The FTO's can sell a dream to people, and the few airlines which take on mainly integrated cadets know that we'll keep paying until we get there.

Anyway sorry for the long rant and feel free to PM me if you have any questions! :)

coffeewhiteone

10th Feb 2011, 09:48

99.8% pass all 14 ATPL subjects at first attempt
Average mark across all 14 subjects is 93.4%

No that sounds about right for a running average.

CharlieFly

10th Feb 2011, 09:59

Finally a post related to the initial Question. Thanks FlyingGuy

Firstly when did you complete the course?

Secondly you don't paint a brilliant picture of CABAIR, from the staff - student relationship, the facilities such as class rooms, and waiting times for aircraft. Would you recommend the course?

I understand the need to pass things first time to remain on budget and time line but should you do this are their figures accurate. Is it a all in package as far as the training and flight time, landing fees, exams, books etc go. I know accommodation and living expenses are extra.
I just don't want to sign up for a course to then be told that to complete the course you have to do x extra and it costs 25K

Also where you are working now that you seem much happier at, where are you working? PM me.

Thanks

P.s. Has anyone got any opinions on the course at Oxford, EFT, or CTC

flyingguy1984

10th Feb 2011, 10:48

No problem, here are the answers;

I finished the course in the early summer of last year,

Would I recommend the course, hmm, it's difficult to say really, a lot of things are subjective and as I've only done one course I only have experience from cabair. However given the current climate and the cost of the course I might have to say no.

At the time I did the course, this is what was included but it may have changed;
Ground school tuition and books
Additional equipment such as compass, CRP5, uniform, maps etc.
Headset, high vis, logbook
Flying hours and landing fees.

What isn't included
All ground school exams £60 each approx.
Fuel surcharges - this may have changed recently, however we were forced into paying an extra £9 per hour single and about £15 for the twin (a total scam as it was only to ensure they could keep their profit margin)
Any retests you pay for the flying hours
IR test fee think it was about £750
Accommodation and transport
Licence £200 I think, and if you want SEP endorsed that's another £150 or so. Sorry for the figures being approximate I can't really remember.

There's no surprise 25k at the end unless you mess up all of your tests and overfly. Most people I knew ended up with a bill of between 1k-5k at the end of training, and this was mainly due to needing additional hours on the twin. The single engine training forms the majority of the training, where as you are expected to do the twin training in around 15 hours or so. You're only supposed to have 5 hours on the twin before you do your ME CPL! A good thing I can say about Cabair is that because they use the DA40 and DA42 for training, moving from the single to the twin is very easy because the cockpit layout is near identical so all you have to contend with is learning all the assym stuff and new speeds etc. Not to downplay that side of things though, it's still pretty intensive, but at least it's not an entirely unfamiliar environment, Anyhow, I'd say the first time pass rate on the ME-CPL when I was there was probably 2 out of 5 passing first time, the other 3 split between out right fail or partial pass which seemed to be the most common. Cabair like to publish their first series pass rate for the IR as being about 98% (first series includes a partial fail), the reality is I'd say 50% pass first time, the rest partial and a very few fail. The partial retest is another £500 to the CAA and the same again to Cabair for the plane. They do not take prisoners!
Most of the people I knew that partial however generally did so because of silly mistakes as a result of nerves, only a couple of people were actually told they were not at the standard and needed more training.

A couple of other things I forgot to mention previously, a lot of changes took place at Cabair over the past year or so. A lot of instructors left, numbers of aircraft were decreased, some of the buildings were given back to Cranfield University and so staff have been shifted. A lot of new office/admin staff have come in (I say a lot, it's run by about 4-5 people) but the old staff left for one reason or another. I also heard recently that Cabair were bought out by a new investment group, I've no idea what changes this may bring but it's worth raising the issue. The big advantage with Cabair from what I've heard of the other schools is the flexibility. If you're married, have kids etc, they are much more reasonable as to where you choose to live and your attendance arrangements. I went to an inner city state school and I felt rather at home at Cabair, if you wanted to turn up and fly, you would, if you didn't turn up at all, no one really pushed you. As far as they were concerned, they had your money making interest in the bank and it was one less person to schedule. Shocking as this may seem, I knew and still know a few people who have been doing the course for nearly 4 years as they never turn up. There's also a chap who has been there for longer as seems to disappear for a year on end.

As for my job now, I work in computers, enough said :)

Look at the facts of it all but make up your own mind as to whether you want to "invest" 100k in this outfit. My honest opinion in general, work hard at school/college, go to Uni, study Law/Medicine/Engineering where you can always find work, do a PPL, build up your hours, get your night rating, IMC, CPL, tail dragging, sea plane, banner towing, whatever you can. Join a club, meet people, taxi the aircraft, wash them with a sponge, do as much as you can to stay involved, and just enjoy it. If the industry picks up again, you'll have a CV longer than your arm with REAL flying commitment. And if it doesn't pick up, well if flying is your dream, flying a PA28 is still flying! Just enjoy it

Smell the Coffee

10th Feb 2011, 11:49

Finally a post related to the initial Question. Thanks FlyingGuy

I'd like to think my contribution to this thread was constructive ...

The African Dude

10th Feb 2011, 13:28

Quote:
Finally a post related to the initial Question. Thanks FlyingGuy
I'd like to think my contribution to this thread was constructive ...
Yeah me too, mate...:mad:
CharlieFly, why don't you try reading the CTC Wings thread for opinions on the course? Not sure why I'm bothering to offer more input though, with a comment like the one above!

giggitygiggity

11th Feb 2011, 01:46

Ok, building on flyingguys good post, in the latest info from CTC provide the following equipment; a flight bag, navigation ruler, a protractor, dividers, calculator, CRP5 computer, kneeboard, jeppesen student route manual and all uniform (excluding socks, so I guess pants are included). The following are specifically not provided; initial medical exam fees, medical renewal fees, CPL/IR license issue fees, foundation course training fees, criminal record check fees, food and living costs, accomodation when on leave during training, provision of personal transport, uniform items not provided by CTC, the cost of travelling to and from the airport (when flying to and from NZ) and all insurance cover. This list is only provided to give you something for you to base your calculations on. Many of the excluded items are expensive, a class 1 medical cost me £330 and course insurance is going to cost around £1000 if you are under 30. I expect that the list of exclusions will be very similar at FTE or OAA but I don't know the details.

HidekiTojo

13th Feb 2011, 00:54

Excellent post Flyingguy. Very accurate and fair description of cabair. Personally I'd be a bit more negative about them.

Pelikanpete

13th Feb 2011, 13:26

Modular vs Integrated has been covered ad infinitum but:

I cannot think of another example, for anything, where the all inclusive package deal that has everything stripped to the bare minimum can cost more.

Integrated is the equivalent of the factory line product - each student supposedly identical and making the minimum standard.

Modular (when completed continuously and with the CPL and IR through the same school) is the equivalent of a hand made product. Production can be slowed down or speed up as appropriate for each individual dependant of which parts they are struggling with and which parts they breeze through. You get 25% more flying time included as standard. A training record can be provided in the same way as the integrated course.

Where schools like Oxford provide both modular and integrated using the same syllabus and instructors, only with more flying time for the modular course, how can anyone argue that the modular guys are not as good a product?

Any preference by airlines for integrated graduates exists purely as a business arrangement between the schools and airlines - so that the schools can make more money. The only exception is when a modular student has an untraceable training record (due to it taking place over a long time with many different schools - something that hardly anyone does).

The bitterness about this subject, the self funded type ratings and pay to fly is due to the sheer desperation felt by so many who have sunk so much time and money into pursuing a career that for the majority is hopeless. As other more desperate people try to jump the queue at any expense we all bicker and snap at each other.

We are like rats, fighting and climbing on top of each other trying to escape a sinking ship. To anyone who wants to ignore the warnings and chuck all their money away to join us in this cr@ppy situation, you will be making it slightly more hopeless but what's the difference between hopeless and more hopeless? Remember once the money is spent, it's gone. There is no going back and if you can't use that little blue book to get a paid flying job, it is then worthless for any other job. How long do you keep chucking good money after bad to keep it current before you resign yourself to another career (which may need it's own qualifications)? If there is a loan it will take many years of hard work in a well paid job to pay off and all for nothing.

It's depressing but no one should be making such important decisions with their eyes shut. The fact is that of the thousands coming out of training each year only a very small number are 'lucky' enough to get the chance to blow another £30K to work for Easyjet or Ryanair on a contract with no job security.

BoeingDreamer

13th Feb 2011, 15:25

Modular can be done just as fast as integrated.
It took me exactly 24 months from my PPL skill test to my IR test, and I waisted at least 6 months mucking about with where and how to do my ATPL's, and I lost about 2 months due to bad weather to complete my IR. So I could have done all in 14 months, add to that I had a wife, 6 month old baby and a business to run, so was not able to study full time all the time!
By the way, all first time passes in all, and averages 95% on my ATPL's, so it is possible to do modular fast, and it cost me in total around £29.000 for CPL/IR/ME and ATPL's.
I had some hours from before. Went few hours over, due to all the above circumstances, but all comes down to your own dedication and hard work.
With the money I saved, I could pay my own TR, while I see loads of Oxford guys now spending top money on their course and then pay TR at Ryan air, it will cost you a fortune in the end, I could do the same, for half the price.

CharlieFly

13th Feb 2011, 15:59

BoeingDreamer - how long ago did you do your course and where did you do it.

£29,000 seems amazingly cheap - with that sort of saving, if possible now modular is the obvious choice, just treating it like a full time job.

Bealzebub

13th Feb 2011, 16:38

Integrated is the equivalent of the factory line product - each student supposedly identical and making the minimum standard.

These students are as individual as anybody else. I can assure you that all the ones I have flown with have been significantly better than "minimum standard." That isn't to say that all students who pursue this route are any better or worse than anybody else in respect of various criteria. However the training is continuous, structured, verifiable and often conducted in conjunction with various airline customers own mentoring schemes.

In an industry where standard operating procedures form the backbone of the flight operations training regime, as well as the day to day operational requirements, this type of airline orientated training is often seen as a necessary pre-requisite in the transistion of very low houred candidates into a cadet airline structure.

30 years ago you would see a few low houred pilots entering airline operations. These candidates came from a small number of approved, full time training establishments (Hamble for BEA,BOAC,BA, Perth, Oxford etc.) The other "self improver" candidates would require significantly greater experience (often thousands of hours) gained through that improvement path. Indeed outside of the "approved" structure the minimum hour requirement for a CPL was 700 hours.

The modular option was introduced at the same time as various national anomolies were removed from the UK licensing system. However this didn't suddenly mean that a CPL and 200 hours was a passport into an airline job. In many respects the old "approved" system is still in existence, whereby the integrated training that a few establishments provide is used as a seamless integration path into a number of airlines. It is something those airlines have a control and input with. It provides a cadet structure that they consider "low risk" because of their experience and relationship with those training providers.

Beyond that, the CPL/IR and 200 hours should be viewed as an aerial work licence that provides the starting point for a long and normally arduous path to those end goals. To view it as anything else, is ambitious.

The situation hasn't been helped (or perhaps it has depending on your point of view,) by one or two airlines, whose CEO's have vocally declared a desire to kill the first officers role completely, or replace them with Cabin crew etc. They are not allowed to do this, so in the meantime they have been happy to adopt the next best thing, and have hopefull candidates pay for their own very expensive training, with the hope that they they can occupy the seat in the role, at whatever terms and conditions those companies stipulate. Even then these opportunities are few and far between and fraught with significant risks for the aspirants.

Apart from a few individuals using recognised and mentored training regimes, 200 hours has never been a realistic level of experience for this type of work. It wasn't 30 years ago, and it still isn't today. The cocktail of isolated pockets of corporate naivity and greed, mixed with a large number of unrealistic aspirants is inevitably going to result in a lot of disappointment.