The "Whistling wheelbarrow"

[Robert Cooper]

Very interesting thread, keep it going guys. Brings back memories.

Bob C :ok:

[zetec2]

Khormaksar March 1964, XP413 sat down in the water on approach into K/Sar, I was sat on the taxi way waiting for it to get on board for a trip to Djibouti, strangely it never made it instead raising a slight splash on finals becoming water borne.

The official line as to why differs from the actual (a heavily ballasted Argosy doesn't fly well with 2 engines out on the same side) so perhaps we could have the real story behind the gentle descent into the bay explained on here, with full anonimity for the crew of course ( I could tell the tale but do slander & libel laws work on here ?) E**** W***** the Loadie was most upset at getting his new "bondou boots" destroyed having to paddle about the freight bay before climbing the ladder to exit onto the fuselage top to be rescued only to be dragged through the oggin by the Whirlwind rescue crew. There is a very good picture of 413 sat in the water on the Ardet site, I was involved in the recovery & subsequent dragging of 413 onto the Marine Craft Section slipway & preparation for shipping back to the UK as deck freight on the P & O Oriana, would add an awful lot of equipment was written off having been "lost at sea" during the recovery.

PH, zetec2.

[ICM]

This unfortunate event was part of unit history by the time I got to 105, and the story in the Nav section was that, as evacuation started, the Nav on the day felt that he could save the cased Peri Sextant - we were always told it was a most expensive bit of kit, so clearly a good thought. He thrust it up through the escape hatch on top of the flight deck ..... the curvature of which then took over and gravity deposited it in the water below, presumably thus becoming the first item 'lost at sea.'

[ICM]

I don't think this thread has touched on one of the incidental tasks that came the Benson Argosy force's way in the later 60s - namely, the use of the aircraft as the main platform for the RAF Parachute Display Team, 'The Falcons.' Both squadrons kept a small number of crews current in this and, as I was to join this band, I was one of those sent to learn the ropes during the team's pre-season training detachment at El Adem in late 1967. The standard display at the time envisaged 2 groups dropping some 30 seconds apart from 12,000 feet, tracking as they fell to 2,000 feet towards a predetermined opening point, where the Para Commander chutes were pulled for a controlled mass arrival on the DZ. However, and this may seem very old hat to today's sports parachutists, they were also developing freefall link-up techniques - I think they achieved the first British 6-man linkup during the 1966 training season - and this involved drops from 16,000 feet. These higher altitude drops required pre-oxygenation, achieved somewhat informally using a console in the freight bay:

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc463/Old141Nav/sc0008f6b0.jpg

As I recall, it was quite an enjoyable det - and the crew I was on also managed to get a few days off in Malta, as we had to take the aircraft to Luqa, with the undercarriage locked down, to get a snag fixed.

Once the 1968 display season started, the tasks I flew on were all badly affected by weather, with several managing nothing better than circa 3,000 feet, which meant a mass exit and an almost-immediate pull. Worse still, the team was scheduled to drop into the garden of Holyrood Palace during a Royal Review of HM Forces in Scotland, but I could see next to nothing on the approach and I doubt that we were even visible as we passed overhead. The best display I managed was at Bari, for an airshow following an air race. The weather on the day was not good, with low cloud rolling in off the Adriatic. We took off for an early slot but, by drop time, could not see enough and went into a long hold as the show went on beneath us. (The Arrows were there too, and I seem to recall they managed one loop through a gap in the base.) So as the afternoon was ending, with us at 11,500 feet under a higher base, a gap appeared below, the airfield could be seen, and clearance to drop was obtained. The team went out in the two groups, trailing smoke, visible from the ground. We later heard that they then vanished for a bit, to re-emerge through a cloud layer and make it onto the DZ, cheered to the echo by the Italian crowd. Honour saved, and 'bella figura' displayed.

[Fareastdriver]

Khormaksar March 1964, XP413 sat down in the water on approach into K/Sar

It was very nearly joined by Valiant BK1 XD813.

We were om the approach and we saw these booms and fins sticking out of the water. Just as we approached it we hit a GODALMIGHTY downdraft. I was NH and without waiting to be told I thumped in a handful of Avons because the speed was dropping as fast as the R of D was increasing. We needed it all and we did not take it off for quite a long time.

They are known today as downbursts; quite common in the far east but maybe not thought of at that time.

[QuePee]

I was travelling through the desert regions of California yesterday and in my sweaty little hand I had a scrap of paper indicating that the museum in Lancaster had an Argosy on show. I knew that it was going to be civvi one as I did not think any ex RAF machines retired in the US, so I was obviously not going to see one of the aircraft I remember so well from my younger days. When I arrived and saw the colour scheme of the Argosy registered N1430Z it was very RAF like. A quick look at the rear doors confirmed it to be an ex RAF aircraft. A little research now I am back shows it to be ex XP447.

The museum caretaker cum receptionist cum tour guide cum part time restorer informed me that it arrived some time back in the early 90s and that shortly afterwards the engines and propellers were removed as they still had considerable value. The museum managed to find 4 Darts lounging in a local scrapyard and fitted them to XP447 but they have so far not been able to track down some suitable propellers.

After making a sizeable donation to the museum funds I was able to get some interior shots of her. At first sight she seems in a bad way, the freight deck needs some tidying up, however the flight deck looked remarkably good, some instruments missing and lost of dust over everything.

I thought you might like to see some pics of her as I am sure some on this forum may have flown her in the distant past.

http://i55.tinypic.com/2dwgty.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/xg07c6.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/sc819g.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/t569z4.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/k4h1z8.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/258qhjn.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/nb6umv.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/2s6925d.jpg

That last picture says it all really.

QP

[BEagle]

Indeed, XP447, last operated by Duncan Aviation of Lincoln, Nebraska on contract work in (I think) Alaska.

Oddly, one of the few Whistling Tits to be converted to the T2 version...albeit briefly.

When I was passing through Lincoln during a VC10K trail, Duncan Aviation were our handling agent - and very efficient they were too! They told us about their Argosies, which were getting rather short of spares by then. In particular, windscreens were in very short supply.

It's a small world; on a later VC10K detachment, a U2 pilot involved in a similar activity noticed my Duncan Aviation flight jacket (a freebie) and told me that he'd done his early flight training at Duncan!

[Speedbird48]

There were two Argosys used on Forestry or BLM contracts in Alaska. One was the one at Lancaster which was ex-RAF with the beavertail ramp door and the other was a civilian version. My memory has failed me but they were both donated to museums at the same time when spares became a problem.

The one at Lancaster was flown by a Bill ???? (his name is painted on the left side below the cockpit window. I trained him to fly the C23A after the Argosy was parked and some time later he sent me a very nice brass belt buckle that showed the beavertail version of the Argosy. He had commisioned Anacortes Brass Works in Washington state to make them for him in 1996. I still wear it every day and it causes many comments here in Montana.

Speedbird48

[The AvgasDinosaur]

I think the other one you are looking for is N896U ex G-AOZZ now with the Yankee Air Museum at Detroit Willow Run
Photos: Armstrong Whitworth AW-650 Argosy 101 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Armstrong-Whitworth-AW-650/0595985/L/)
Hope it helps
Be lucky
David

[Speedbird48]

Hi David,

Thats the one. Looks like they look after it a bit better than the Lancaster folks!! Or, maybe their vandals are better controlled!! The last time I saw the Lancaster one it had just been delivered so was in good shape, and complete.

Speedbird 48.

[Proplinerman]

When I started this thread, I said I would post links to my three other photos of Argosies. Well, sorry, I forgot, but here they are.

Firstly, a civil machine, preserved at the Midlands Air Museum at Coventry airport:

JetPhotos.Net Photo » G-APRL (CN: 6652) Private Armstrong Whitworth 650 Argosy by Michael Blank (http://tinyurl.com/5w765hp)


Secondly, another civil example, photographed in 1974:

ABC Argosy at Castle Donington 16-3-74 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://tinyurl.com/27bk5z8)

And finally, a military example, preserved at Cosford:

ScanImage16 1024 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://tinyurl.com/63yfyvf)

[ICM]

Well, this was what was being promised - Ads in 'Flying Review' magazine of 1959-60 vintage.

First, the "Prop-Jet Freightercoach"

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc463/Old141Nav/2f06f840.jpg

And then "The Transport for the Missile Age"

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc463/Old141Nav/2be5a455.jpg

I think they worked out OK.

[brakedwell]

Just found this photo. An atmospheric shot taken during a quick turnround in Salalah before flying on to Masirah in 1964.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/LocalAskariguardSalalah.jpg

[sisemen]

On holiday in NZ at the moment and passed as preserved Argosy 200 series outside a cafe just by the RNZAF base at Woodbourne near Blenheim. Thw owners of the cafe opened it up for me and the requested donation was $2!!

The fit out was interesting in that it had a freight bay forward and a pax capsule inserted into the back end.

Will post photos when I get back to Oz

[gerry smith]

Capt. Paddy Boyd

[zetec2]

Further to my earlier post XP413 sat in the water at K/Sar, my copy of the Dhow newspaper shows the picture with the heading "Stranded Whale in Adens Waters" , we quickly had it towed back to the Marine Craft section & dismantled for shipping back to the UK as deck cargo on the P & O Oriana, has anybody got a picture of it on the deck ?. Rgds, Paul H.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/zetec2/ArgosyXP413AdenApril64.jpg

[JW411]

I flew the Argosy in the RAF for 10 years (1962-1971). I ended up on 105 Sqn in Aden but I wasn't actually there when XP413 ended up in the water on short finals to runway 08 at Khormaksar.

There has been lots of discussion about what went wrong up front with the check captain, the captain, the F/O and the F/E so I will not go down that road.

What was intersting was the navigator's story. TD was on the same commissioning course as me at South Cerney in 1960. I seem to remember that he became the youngest commissioned officer in the (peacetime) RAF. He was 17 years old.

The day that they ended up in the water in Aden was pretty interesting from his point of view. The cockpit escape hatch (see the photograph) was right above the navigator's table. Taff refused to accept the fact that they had actually ditched (he was facing backwards) until the rest of the crew started to stand on his fingers as they went out.

When he finally followed them, they were all sitting in one of the MS26 dinghies that were stored in the wings. Unfortunately, the dinghy had inflated inside the booms of the aircraft so they were sat there in their own personal swimming pool surrounded by airframe.

So Taff stood on the wing and persuaded them that they really needed to get out and re-launch the dinghy away from the airframe. (By the way, you will astonished to learn that an MS26 dinghy held 26 survivors and was rather large and bloody heavy).

So they all sat there in their MS26 watching XP413 and it showed no signs of sinking. It slowly dawned on them that the bottom of the fuselage was already on the bottom. Whereupon, the chief cheerleader from the front got it in his mind that they should start saving as many radios and navaids from the radio rack upstairs as they could as this might help ameliorate the punishment to come from "the subsequent court martial".

Now any of you who have ever been in a dinghy will know that there is no such thing as a dry dinghy. There will ALWAYS be water in the bottom. So it was that all of the radios etc were completely ruined.

From Taff's point of view, his biggest item was the periscopic sextant. He handed it over the side to one of his friends who promptly dropped it and it is still (presumably) on the sea bed.

XP413 was towed to the Khormaksar Marine Craft Unit and dismantled. It was taken home and rebuilt and became the Argosy that used to resupply all the British embassies in Russia etc. As a celebration of its hisory, a Plimsoll line was painted on each side the forward fuselage.

Sad to report, Taff eventually remustered as a pilot and ended up as a captain with Britannia Airways. He fell off his perch about 10 years or so ago and is no longer with us.

[Fareastdriver]

Shortly after 413 splashed in, it was still in the water, I was approaching Khormaksa in a Valiant. On short finals just before we passed over it we hit a GODALMIGHTY downdraft; something that could be described as a violent downburst.

It took a considerable handful of Avons to check the descent; maybe four Darts couldn't.

[zetec2]

Maybe 4 Avons saved the day for you but the 2 (two) Darts didn't & a fully loaded concrete ballasted XP 413 Argosy on 2 just won't stay airborne, it had a struggle on 4, we had RDA7 Darts on introduction to service, believe it was later fitted with higher power RDA8's (any body confirm ?) it wasn't exactly a sparkling performer, water meth was used every take off & filling that tank was a right pain in the arse although in Aden we had local labour for those jobs it wasn't until late 63 that we eventually got a water meth bowser with a "donkey" engine to pump it in, 75 gallons if memory serves, tank in the starboard boom balancing out the Rover APU in the port boom, oh what fun we had, rgds PH.

[JW411]

I was not aware that the RAF Argosy was ever fitted with the Dart Da.7. I was on No.5 Course in 1962 and all aircraft were already fitted with Dart Da.8s. What it really needed were Da.10s or Da.12s with reversing propellers.

[zetec2]

JW411, apologies it did as you say have RDA8's, my reason for thinking "7's" is I have my original Dart Notes & a RR Dart RDA7 factory manual ?? which were supplied on the works course for the Argosy, I read in the notes the later models & the proposed Argosy 200 were designed around RDA10's, , am getting confused in old age it is 50 or so years ago since I was on them ! again apologies, Paul H.

[zetec2]

Picture of 413 being hauled up on the slipway at the Marine Craft section, how sad, ! took just over a fortnight to dismantle ready for crating & shipping home it was well drained & flushed out, we had great fun ! drilling holes in the bottom of the fuselage to let the sea out prior to lifting the floorboards to flush the "bilges" out with (very valuable) fresh water. Paul H.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/zetec2/img014.jpg

[sisemen]

Will post photos when I get back to Oz

As promised......

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/argosy3.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/argosy2.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/Argosy1.jpg

[zetec2]

A question , the RAF Argosy used prop blades with square tips (Dowty Rotol units ?) & note the Safe Air Argosy has round tip props ? why, any special reason also the large wing fence outboard of 1 - 4 engines , was this as a result of having a big round tail door as opposed to the RAF;s beaver tail type, what other differences did the civvy Argosy have over the RAF aircraft. PH.

[Bigt]

Biggest difference between civil and military would of been civils having front and rear opening ...

[brakedwell]

Military Argosy = Higher MTOW, Strengthened Floor, APU, Smiths military flight system and water meth boost to increase power.

[Fareastdriver]

Military Argosy = Higher MTOW, Strengthened Floor,

Then they found out that the armoured car that the strengthened floor had been put in for was now too high for the amoured car to get in.

[zetec2]

Fareastdriver, we did the trial fits with the Army in Bahrein think it was the Salladin or Saracen that was supposed to go in - but wouldn't, regardless of what the designers & Army said, "but it must it is shown on the drawing" !! believe they would fit but on a "sled" without wheels fitted, then we did the trials with the low back Bedford refueller, had to be reversed in empty, (thought the idea was to fly it into remote strips ready to function) , all ok but when loaded because of the cab & engine gearbox etc at the rear it put the C of G right on the rear most limit, fail again, we also had to use longer than standard ramps to give a shallower angle for the vehicles to drive up into the freight bay as well otherwise clearance on the top door could be a problem, the aircraft carried it's own short ramps which stayed with the aircraft, but the long ramps had to be carried in the freight bay as an extra & were very heavy ! more additional weight, about the only thing it carried without any bother was VIP's and the Landrover & trailer, it could also carry a Landrover, limber & 105 Howitzer if it was fitted in all at odd angles, once did a trip with that load & spent some of the trip sitting in the Landrover seat strapped in , no room for passenger seats, oh what fun we had, although we could carry such things as Bristol Hercules QEC's when 233 Sqd Valleta's went u/s up country, but vehicles, sorry no !, PH.

[JimmAttrill]

I was an engine fitter on 115 sqn 1968-9 working on both Argosies and Varsities. I am pretty certain that XP413 was one of our aircraft and was noticeable because it suffered from endless electrical problems - most likely caused by being under water.
I spent two 3-month detachments in Singapore, on my own most of the time as I could not, as a J/T fly out with the aircraft. I got there and back by VC10. To do flight checking at Gan we had to fly via Katanyake (Colombo) because of the limited range of the aircraft. Kat was the only possible diversion.
The IRIS III aircraft was the last RAF Hastings. That gave us 3 different types of aircraft to maintain and the Hastings was a pain in that the engines were similar to the Hercules in the Varsity, they were not the same. And, being a tail dragger it was easy to fall off the wing when refuelling on a wet wing. And if any of you know RAF Cottesmore, it had the highest rainfall of any RAF station and was also very windy.
Overall, I liked the Argosy. The Darts were very reliable - I only ever changed one and that was a mistake. The Rotol props had rubber protectors stuck the the leading edge of the blades that used to fall off all the time. Eventually we cheated by painting the leading edges black. :)

[Twinnshock]

Later on Ian was the safety pilot on the jumpseat for base training at Stansted. At V1 a simulated engine failure resulted in the aircraft cartwheeling across the Essex countryside, coming to a halt with a big hole behind them whereupon Ian called out "follow me chaps - I've done this before! "

I remmber my Dad telling me about this crash. He worked for the CAA and was near the end of the runway in a Landrover with his boss when the crash happened. They drove their Landrover to the crash site and were the first to arrive but the crew were already out and sitting on the grass. As they walked up to the crash my Dad's boss bent down and picked up a wrist watch. He approached the crew and asked if any body had had lost their watch and was this it. On checking one of the crew replied yes at which my Dad's boss asked "can you prove it?"

[zetec2]

Jim the "rubber protectors" on the leading edge of the propellers were electrical DE-ICE boots, worked on a timer device, notoriously unreliable, changed loads of boots as they overheated & burnt out just leaving the element exposed on the blade, when the rubber came off it didn't half make a noise as it flailed around prior to going off into orbit, bet that a lot of Arabs up the Gulf have flip-flops made from de-ice boots that came off in flight !, regards, Paul H.

[Boxkite Montgolfier]

I have just revisited this site and continue to be highly entertained by the tales of daring do and hugely educational input regarding The Wheelbarrow!
Somewhat surprisingly, one of the great "Transport Warriors", Dad Owen, has failed ,yet, to make an appearance, in these Chronicles, so I add some reminisces to stir further chortle.
During the early days of Argosy operation at Benson , reference has been made to the appalling winter of 1962/63 which effectively closed the runway for a long period.
Just prior to the worst conditions,having been employed on snow clearance for most of the day, I was elected to accompany 'Dad' on a low level getaway to Wildenrath. A dramatic penetration of European radar defences preceded our jolly lubrication in the company of our 2 TAF buddies. Next day, thankfully, we were informed Benson and virtually all UK Stations were closed. More jolly ratification demanded.
Dad, with commendable resilience, on the third day of our nightstop decided to carry out some circuits to entertain our chums. Downwind, low level, for our second approach we were ordered to land immediately!
Fearing some misdemeanour had been revealed, we were astonished to be informed by O.C. Flying Wildenrath, that we were required to plan an early departure for Luqa- again low level and direct!
Sense prevailed and we departed next day for St Mawgan, the only airfield open in UK from whence we 'attacked' Malta via Gib, Port Lyautey etc etc- but thats another epic.
Most 'Dad Owen' sagas demanded an extended use of the night stop pantalones and singular acts of stamina from all! What say you?
We returned to Benson about a month later . God Bless, Dad!

A further aside, one wet morning I encountered Ian Bashall, marooned on the road to Henley and was able to give the "Great Survivor" a lift to rectify his car. Whatever magic potion Ian drinks, I'd like some too!!

[brakedwell]

Is Dad Owen still with us? The last I heard of him, he was working at his family firm of auctioneers in North Wales. JW411 should know more.

[ICM]

Dad Owen - what a good thought! I'd been wondering how we might give this thread another stir, given all that has been told thus far. Unfortunately, I'm not going to be a great source here as I only knew him at 242 OCU, Thorney Island, where he was Instructor to the pilots on our crew (Ted Derbyshire and Ken Stanley) during No 21 Course over the summer of 1966. I do, however, recall a number of bibulous Saturday nights in the Mess with him holding court and delivering an inspirational "Once more into the breach" type speech before we went off to El Adem for the night and Tactical phase of the course.

I am moderately confident, however, that JW411 will be able to make up for my shortcomings in this regard - and am a little surprised if Dad has really not figured in any of his tales thus far.

And does the description, 'The face that's worn out five bodies,' sound right?

[brakedwell]

And does the description, 'The face that's worn out five bodies,' sound right?

Only five? :eek:

[JW411]

It was actually "the face that wore out nine bodies".

Dad is sadly no longer with us. In fact, he died quite young. I think he was only 52 years old when he died. His liver finally gave up the unequal struggle. He retired to Colwyn Bay and I made a few forrays in that direction to see him. In fact, we once made a Taceval visit to the Mermaid on the Menai Straits to check out the landlord (St Jean Price?) who was ex-Beverleys.

Dad and I joined 267 Sqn right at the beginning. I was his lad. I cannot begin to tell you how much trouble we got into over the years but he taught me a hell of a lot about aviation. I could spend the next two years telling you stories about what we did.

Dad was actually a genius but he had an unerring habit of always being in the sh*t or very close to it.

One story; he hated lightweight headsets when they first appeared. I think he considered them to be akin to witchcraft. So, he insisted on using his old cloth hat (he had two; a normal one and his KD one - he cut all the panels out leaving just the straps so his hair stuck up in clumps).

The rest of us hated this for the impedence of his microphone didn't match our lightweight headsets. He also had this terrible habit of blowing into his microphone when he put it on.

I devised a wheeze; when he went downstairs for a pee, I used to plug his cloth hat into the supernumerary station box by the collapsible jump seat behind the captain's seat at the top of the stairs. I would turn all the knobs up exactly as he had them on his own box but I put him on "listen only". So he could hear but he couldn't talk.

He'd get back into his seat, put his cloth hat on and blow into the mask. "Bloody hell Dad, do you have to do that?". You could see his mouth moving but no sound came out. After a while, he would take it off and ask the engineer (usually Eric Yates) if he could have a screwdriver and a pair of pliers.

Dad would spend the next several hours taking his cloth hat to bits. He never did figure out what I'd done but we always let him have his comms back before landing.

He finally came to terms with the lightweight headset.

[Boxkite Montgolfier]

Dad Owen featured again shortly after we returned from our epic night stop mentioned above.
Dad plus motley scallywag naughty boys had departed Benson, en route, Gibraltar. Whilst in the cruise, off northern Portugal they experienced an engine fire and promptly loosed of all available fire bottles without extinguishing the fire warning. With commendable speed,after appropriate 'Pan' calls and liaison with our Portugeese allies, a rapid and unprecedented diversion to Oporto was effected. Dad plus crew landed on a runway surrounded and packed with the whole town, including all school children who had been released early to witness the "disaster". Our heroes were graciously met and feted by Oporto and its dignitaries, accommodated and then released into the bars, port caverns and restaurants various.

Meanwhile back at Benson base, after much Diplomatic and logistic head scratching, Johnny Walker, 114 Sqn and yours truly 267 Sqn, plus further naughty boys were dispatched to Oporto on "Operation Dad Aid". We mustered an Argosy eventually plus some ground crew and spare fire bottles and were launched on our back up mission. I should add that as the junior, I found myself lumbered with the Imprest to cover all crew Oporto requirements including Dad's boys.

Our trip down to Portugal-next -sea was uneventful apart from ,once again being greeted by the whole town on arrival. After locating our accommodation, a Chief of Chief's staff meeting ensued at which Johhny and Dad instructed me to dispense at least 3 days allowances given our anticipated stay, much to my concern. Dear reader, you can imagine the consequence of some very naughty boys been flushed in all pockets with mucho escudos!
A very long night followed. Chance meetings with all concerned in bars various resulted in vigorous reunions and a vast quantity of 'headache' was loaded. I finally surfaced in some disreputable establishment in company with a great chum Keith Mxxxxxxxn. Apparently we enjoyed ourselves.
Next morning, early, both Dad and Johnny were rattling my door exhorting an early departure no less. My howls of despair requesting escudo returns fell on deaf ears universally naturally. Thus , yours truly, failed to attain Air Rank but received for many years chirpy recognition and beers from all the naughty boys. Amen

[Varipitch]

Firstly-I should like to give you all a profile of what I (we-as I have a co-writer in California) is trying to achieve-and Yes-we need your help.
But firstly, the comment about landing a cottage etc was applied to the Beverley was it not, only slightly modified to read "Like landing a council house from the upstairs toilet window".
But back to the plot. My co-writer and I would like to write and publish a book to be entitled CARGO TRAMPS and with the explanation "We flew where the money was and loaded anything that would fit through the cargo door".
But we need YOUR help ! We started last year in Monterey when we were guests of the Flying Tigers: We have some wonderful tales from those guys from the Budd Connestoga days up to the introduction of the DC8's.
We have first hand stories from guys who flew for Gaddafi; for Jack Malloch in Biafra and Rhodesia, for South American outfits whose history spanned one flight BUT we need your Stories-Full credit-or anonimity will be given
Thanks in advance

[brakedwell]

So you didn't go sightseeing then :E

[Smudger]

Here's my tuppence worth... my first ever flight in a powered aeroplane was an air experience flight in an Argosy when I was in the Combined Cadet Force (RAF Section) at school. We took off from RAF Benson and flew for about two hours, taking in a couple of south coast towns in the process. We landed back at Benson breathless with the excitement of it all. This would have been in the late 60's when I was about 15... I am now 59 and have been flying professionally, both military and civil, since I was 19 (including 8 years on the C130), and because of that unforgettable flight the Argosy will always hold a special place in my aviating heart. I will dig out my Cadet Flying Log Book to establish the exact aircraft and the date.

[merlinxx]

Whisling Tit, into LGW with Air Cadets from RAFG summer camp, full of boiled egg farts, that was one for the new ramp agents:mad::E

[Cornish Jack]

'Dad' Owen ... He was Flt Cdr on 30 at Dishforth when I started on Bevs.I believe he was the instigator of the Sqdn " Location Board" which contained all the crew names and a space for location, of which there were weekday headings each of which indicated a local town whose Market Day it was!! (For the juveniles who know not of old style licencing laws, special dispensation was given for extended opening hours on Market Days. Excellent system but I fear that it would generate attacks of the vapours in today's organisations.
He also had some 'sage advice' for the new spouse of one of our number who came to complain of her husband's absence - said husband was noted as being an overly zealous bed-partner!! The advice will have to wait until after the watershed:ooh:

[wilnot]

I remember that time well. I was the SEngO with 114 Sqn and flew down to Eastleigh as part of an advance party, the idea being that we would, when the UK govt decided to do so, form part of a mixed Argosy/ Javelin force deployed to Beira in what was then Portuguese East Africa.

Our route took us through various refuelling stops (I remember Khartoum was one of them). My party spent the whole flight (a good 24 hours as I recall) in para seats, with a Landrover and various pallets of spares and ground equipment down the middle of the cargo bay. The Sqn Cdr (Wg Cdr Evans) arrived shortly afterwards and there were also 2 or 3 Britannias at Eastleigh. Thankfully, the Portuguses didn't let us in (Beira, by all accounts, was an absolute hell-hole). We spent a pleasant week or 10 days in Kenya and then went home. Made a change.

[Basil]

I found myself lumbered with the Imprest
Went off on a Caribbean trainer. First nightstop Keflavik and Bas thought it would be a great wheeze to give them ALL their cash for the whole trip and get rid of it.
Next morning, en-route Gander, we received orders: "Return to Keflavik, refuel and return to base."
Buggah! Bas spent a busy few hours collecting as much of his imprest as possible back from reluctant beneficiaries and re-doing the paperwork.

Just noted that JW411 was in command Kef-Benson.

[hirsute]

A somewhat late contribution to this thread: two 267 aircraft were tasked with taking some signals stuff to Malawi via Tripoli, Kano, Leopoldville (as was), Elizabethville (as was) and onwards. We were both 105,000lbs and often flew in loose formation over the more inhospitable parts of the route in case one had a spot of engine failure. Max altitude was about 10,000ft (which wasn't much agl over the Great African Plateau).
After delivering our cargo I was then directed to Livingstone to await Ace Freighters' Constellation (did I imagine it or did I see rolls of copper wire stowed in the nosewheel bay!?). We took an entire radio broadcast station via the Caprevi Strip to Francistown in Bechuanaland (as was) where a BBC relay station was built. At Francistown (famed for being on the Mafeking-Bulawayo railway), after a low pass to clear random wildlife from the runway, the inhabitants of the local jail were mustered to offload the plane. They were a jolly lot and enjoyed finishing off our catering and were supervised by a large amiable prison officer with a bull-whip.
Back at the Zambian AF base (ZAF was run by the Brits then) there was a mini mutiny when it was heard that the then Wilson government was thinking of bombing Salisbury. But that's another story..

[JW411]

hirsute:

I have given up trying to respond to your given email address. I have sent you a PM.

[MX Trainer]

Does anyone know if the one at the Yankee Museum has actually been scrapped??

This from 2013:

Yankee Air Museum Makes Tough Decisions | Warbirds News (http://www.warbirdsnews.com/warbirds-news/yankee-air-museum-tough-decisions.html)

I will hopefully be there for Thunder Over Michigan airshow this weekend and was hoping to see the aircraft.

Pretty sad state of affairs if it is Coors Cans now!!!

Mx

[brakedwell]

Francistown was an interesting place. The airport was run by the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association (WENELA) to supply labourers to the South African gold mines in a fleet of old DC 4's. We were on the ground long enough enjoy lunch at a pub in the main street, which also happened to have the main railway line running along it. We felt as if we had been transported back in time to Dodge City ca 1850. I also remember the monster slag heap, which I believe came from the first gold mine in Africa.

[oldsimman]

Appropro Whistling tits and imprests. I was on 114 sqn and we did the 1964 IDC tour. That was an end of course jolly around europe for brass hat graduates of the Imperial Defence College.
The skipper was Johnny Walker, co pilot Dave Paul, and nav Pete Sharpe.I cannot remember the names of the A eng or the two AQMs.
We were in Rome on the coach near the Collesium enroute to the aircraft for flight to Belgrade. I was sitting behind the skipper when i heard him say OOOH DAVID. D P had just told him that he had left his briefcase with the imprest and all our money in the hotel room that he had just checked out of. Fortunately a quick 180 to the hotel and the briefcase was retreived. I believe that D P became a wing commander,I wonder how much longer it would have taken if the briefcase had vanished.

[KelvinD]

An interesting thread that takes me back a few years!
From a victim's (passenger) point of view one or two of the posts had me reminiscing.
Re the Matsapa to Francistown move, Ias a technician in the Royal Signals, was supposed to be detached from Aden to Matsapa but then someone noticed a move was afoot so my mate & I were held off until the move was almost complete.
We were put on board an RAF Argosy at Khormaksar and were slightly bewildered by the "seating" arrangements. There weren't any! Unless you happened to be the Air Vice Marshall, Brigadier or Major I/C B Company South Wales Borderers who were going there to take over from the Paddies. That select few had what appeared to be bus seats, bolted to the deck at the rear of the aircraft, facing aft.
We had a pair of parallel tubes with some webbing strung between them. The seat belt was a net that dangled from the deck head. Smashing!
In the middle of what would otherwise have been a bare deck, there was a couple of piles of cargo.
We flew to RAF Eastleigh for some reason and re-embarked just before dawn. I was startled when climbing the ladder to board the aircraft, a tech doing up a huge nut in the centre of the nose wheel. His mate then produced a large spanner to tighten it.
Off we went and the aircraft obviously had a problem as one of the RAF lot came down a ladder at the front and checked the doors, particularly the one nearest to me. Back up the ladder he went but it would seem he still didn't have the indication he wanted. A couple of checks later and he gave up, disappearing back up his ladder, never to be seen again. Eventually, the aircraft fixed itself. As we got higher, the door nearest to me suddenly gave a bit of a bang, popped open slightly (inward, I think), then slammed itself shut. That fixed it!
Landing at Chileka, we were on the ground only a short time. Departure from there was interesting; we taxied to the end of the runway and without even slowing down, it was a quick left turn and max revs. Toward the end of the runway, there was a hump and we hit this, bounced up into the air and away we went. The forerunner of the ski jump affair on HMS Carriers, perhaps?
Landing at Francistown, it was raining and the locals told us it was the first time for 7 years. What they hadn't told us was it had been raining for days and the floods were only just subsiding. The outcome was that the Argosy left ruts in the runway, which didn't go down at all well with WENELA, who promptly banned the RAF from any further flights into Francistown.
Our next re-supply flight from Aden was fulfilled with a Beverley. Of course this "went tech" in Nairobi as they always did. Eventually, it arrived and a couple of blokes kicked everything out of the back door on parachutes. Sadly for me, the piece of kit I had been waiting for (ironically, an RAF issue RF power amplifier, known as SL56) was on the one parachute that didn't work. I had 48 hours solid work (no kip). Thanks lads!
Re the hotel etc mentioned above, there were 2 hotels on that main street, The Grand and the Tati. The Grand was for Ruperts and the Tati was for us lot.
Rhodesian Railways used to run through the town, from Johannesburg to Bulawayo. There was one famous evening when a group of drunken Paddies decided to go walk about. So they hijacked the train! They were arrested and jailed in Rhodesia. A young infantryman from the South Wales Borderers caused a stir by stowing away in the coal tender, being discovered in Bulawayo. A bit of a diplomatic incident and questions asked in the house; why was a 17 year old soldier sent abroad in the first place?
As for the "propaganda station" mentioned in an earlier post; that was the Central African Relay Station of the BBC World Service. The infantry I was accompanying were there primarily to guard that and the Diplomatic Wireless Service station.
While we were supposed to be observing sanctions against Rhodesia, we often received small stores that had been mailed to the Military Attache in Pretoria and then put on a Rhodesian Railways train to get to us.
Also, our resident RAF lad, a cross between a loadmaster and a refueller, had the use of a fuel bowser courtesy of Shell/BP Rhodesia. Some sanctions!
Incidentally, that main street in Francistown was a boundary for us. Company orders always featured an "out of bounds" message and the first 2 locations were:
1. Rhodesia
2: South of the railway line.
Happy days!
I also notice in this thread the topic of routing.
When I finally left Aden in late 1967, my lucky mates got rides home on the new fangled BOAC B707s. My mates and I were not so lucky and we had to settle for one of Transport Command's finest Britannias. The UK had upset everyone in the Middle East over alleged support for Israel and the RAF were not allowed to overfly most of the Arab countries. So we went cross country over Oman to the Gulf coast. Left turn there and on the Muharraq. I was thinking this cold be interesting, we seem to have boxed ourselves in here. We took off and, after an hour or two, the pilot sent round a chart, wrapped up in stout polythene and with our route marked in chinagraph pencil and I was amazed to see were crossing Iran and our track was going to take us over Armenia & Georgia. Over the USSR at the height of the cold war! At the Black Sea, there was a wide semi-circle which skirted Turkey and took us to Akrotiri. From there, via Luqa, we eventually arrived at Lyneham, 20 hours after we had set out!
The aircraft was a casevac flight and when we arrived, the Customs were total toe rags. They stopped the ambulances loading stretchers and insisted on every casualty being searched in situ, on the aircraft. They were poking thin pieces of dowel up plaster casts and into bandages etc. Someone snitched though, as they made the front page of some newspapers the next day.
The poor old aircraft was doomed though. I heard that, after filling up with new stores, post, nurses etc, it went back to Khormaksar where it failed to stop at the end of the landing run. Although there were no casualties, I believe it was blown up in situ.

[DaveReidUK]

The poor old aircraft was doomed though. I heard that, after filling up with new stores, post, nurses etc, it went back to Khormaksar where it failed to stop at the end of the landing run. Although there were no casualties, I believe it was blown up in situ.http://www.radfanhunters.co.uk/Images-AAC/XL638-Sirius_in%20sea_Ksar_12-10-67_RGB(1).jpg

Only RAF Britannia to be written off.

[bingofuel]

Cue for brakedwell to explain about brake dwell on the Britannia and why this happened .

[gopher01]

Wasn't this the VIP on 70 at Akrotiri 1968 until the Hercs arrived

[John Farley]

Re the Britannia pictured above the accident report says it overshot as a result of power being applied after touchdown instead of reverse thrust.

[brakedwell]

Re the Britannia pictured above the accident report says it overshot as a result of power being applied after touchdown instead of reverse thrust.

After landing the flight engineer did not move the reverse arming lever fully into it's detent. When he selected reverse power the props were still in forward thrust. He tried, unsuccessfully, to give the captain reverse thrust several times, accelerating a bit each time until they ran out of runway. The unfortunate captain had just been promoted from co-pilot.

BTW. Reverse dwell referred to below was renamed Brakedwell :)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/ScreenShot2014-08-08at132416_zps96ff131d.png

[ICM]

Good to see KelvinD's tale of the start of the Matsapa/Francistown era, above - my tale concerning its end was posted pages back. Now I only got up to Francistown once myself and I'd be interested to know if anyone else thinks that the RAF Argosy picture used on the Wiki entry for the aircraft might have been taken there? Apart from the clamber up the curve of the hangar there to ATC, the one thing I do recall is that we had to do an overwing refuel and there are plenty of fuel drums in evidence in that photo.

Armstrong Whitworth AW.660 Argosy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_Whitworth_AW.660_Argosy)

[ruddman]

Whistling wheelbarrow eh? Interesting aircraft.

How fast did it go? :ok:

[brakedwell]

200 knots :8

[Kieron Kirk]

XP444
Wasn't this the VIP on 70 at Akrotiri 1968 until the Hercs arrived

It was still used as a VIP a/c when I saw XP444/70 Squadron/HQ.NEAF. at RAF Brize Norton on the 15th December 1974.

Chiarain.

[Flybiker7000]

My favourite LOX story............The sandwich duly arrived surrounded by the usual finery. I congratulated your man and asked him how it was that the butter in his sandwiches was always beautifully cold and crisp and not running like it usually was in that part of the world. "It's easy, said Tatty Bill, I just put my butter on top of the frozen tank in the nose".
Now those of you who know the devastating results of liquid oxygen coming in contact with any form of grease will raise your eyes to heaven!

I can remember in later life hearing about the AA DC-10 co-pilot who had a moustache. He took a breath of O2 after his lunch and the butter remnants on his moustache caught fire and he burned 50% of his lungs out.

Finally, the most dangerous thing that we ever carried on the Argosy was a mobile LOX Plant.
So the big problem with a mobile LOX plant was that if it started to malfunction, the whole floor of the aeroplane would very rapidly crystalise and fall out of the bottom of what was left of the aeroplane.


It's quite right that oily stuff and Ox shouldn't be in contact, but that considers pressurised Ox! Oxygene is highly flame nutritious and oil under pressure wil heat up towards combustion (wich actually is the trick of diesel engines (self combustion!)).
.
- But: Was the hammer in the LOX-show fully degreased and what about the natural 3% grease contended by the banana? - The crucial detail is 'under pressure'!
In difference to the LOX -tank/flask, the cold area in the LOX-circuit is where the inner pressure falls and the cold thing is possible a condenser with big cooling areas to divert the coldness emerged (wich actual is the trick of fridges). Hence there is hardly pressurised Ox where coldness occour! Anyhow with inner pressure, how should oil under the surroundings pressure get in contact with pressurised Ox??
.
- Butter in the Mustage!? I'm used to work with Oxy-Acetylen torches and believe me: Pure Oxygene blown on any oily or greasy surface won't create any heat so ever!
.
- LOX-plants produces LOX when working - They are not LOX-containers. There are no reason to a LOX-plant should contain any LOX during transport!
.
LOX is serious stuff, especially in the near of fire. The oily detail is mostly to be attended around (not)lubricating LOX equipment, wich mostly changes between un-pressurised and pressurised and where oil/grease might get into the later to be pressurised parts!

[evansb]

AWA ARGOSY (http://www.argosyair.co.uk/introduction.html)

http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/gumpjr_bucket/3e33087b-e762-4a56-a29f-a5d12aff6e5e.jpg

[etimegev]

The pic of the Brit off the runway at K’sar brings back memories. I was on the Mountain/Desert Rescue Team at Sharjah at the time and we had gone up to Muharraq to catch that particular aircraft en-route to Tehran for Exercise Nejat (an international mountain rescue team exercise). Instead we had an enforced 10 day “holiday” in transit accommodation at Muharraq before there were any spare seats to take us back to Sharjah. :yuk:

[Flybiker7000]

Around post #96 there is a short debate about Amazon.
After having been enjoyed by reading this Argosy thread during the last tree days, I find not so ever need of buying books to get curious RAF-stories ;-)
BTW: For the read I've got good use of:
http://natureonline.com/37/56-ap4-glossary.html ;-)

[Flybiker7000]

Having read through this wonderfull tread, I miss the explanation of the RAF decision of blinding the front load door.
Can Anyone explain more thoroughly why, or tell the story about the possible mishap wich lead to the decision??

[brakedwell]

During the Armstrong Whitworth course at Bagington at the end of 1962 I can't recall ever being given a reason why the front freight door was not fitted on the RAF version, however there was a small round crew door.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/Argosy-Masirah.jpg

[brakedwell]

Were 'small round rear crew' a feature of Argosy squadrons?

Not sure about small, but some were round and one had a tendency to whistle after a few beers :O

[India Four Two]

I can't recall ever being given a reason why the front freight door was not fitted on the RAF version

I've not been able to find it, but I remember a cartoon of the civil version, with a fork-lift loading boxes at the front, and boxes falling out at the rear, while the driver is talking to his mate. The caption was something along the lines of "It's amazing how much you can fit into these new aircraft!"

[Warmtoast]

Prompted by this thread to do a little more delving into the history of the Argosy I found this on FlightGlobal's site - includes a lovely photo of a formation of Argosys over Aden (Crater).

1962 | 2920 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1962/1962%20-%202920.html)

[Flybiker7000]

As the Argosy actual is of same age as the Lockheed Hercules, I find it (based on the storytelling here) quite inadequate in comparision :-|
Seen from the European continent it could seem rather british-like to try to get the best out of something being archaic at birth but accepted just because it was British!?
Beside the Herc', what had the red's of such kind of transport aircrafts and would the Argosies have been able to do their job in case of a serious east/vest conflict had happened?
'
From the tales I understand that the Argosys climb-rate was miserable, but since
I haven't been able to find the figures on the web I have to ask in wich extent the C/R was, as I have got the impression that it could be outclimbed by a Cessna 172?!

[Fareastdriver]

For what it is worth 4th November 1971 was probably the last operational day of the Argosy, just leaving the Boscome wingwaver. That was the day I picked up Wg Cdr Burberry and crew at Kemble after they had delivered the last Benson aeroplane.

[JW411]

I think you might mean Gp Capt Burberry who was the Station Commander at Benson.

[zetec2]

Seem to have lost a page that had reference to Argosy bomb racks ? any ideas. PH.

[VX275]

The subject of Argosy bomb racks is currently part of a thread drift on the Shackleton C1 thread over on the Military forum.

[Fareastdriver]

JW411 Sorry. He was a Wing Commander when I knew him.

[zetec2]

VX275, thank you, afraid age and brain fade, PH.

[Brian 48nav]

Didn't the Argosy stay in service with 115 Sqn until well into the mid-70s?

[Loki]

I think so. I'm sure I remember an Argosy calibrating at Bedford in '73

[spekesoftly]

I can remember getting a ride from Akrotiri to Kingsfield in a 70 Sqn Argosy during the summer of 1974. I think 70 Sqn at that time still had two, one of which was normally a VIP aircraft, but it was pressed into service because of the Cyprus troubles and restrictions on surface movement.

[john_tullamarine]

Argosy ? VIP ?

[spekesoftly]

Yes, for CinC NEAF, probably XP444 as mentioned much earlier in this thread.

[Heathrow Harry]

probably replaced his exec Beverley........... :cool::cool:

[om15]

70 Sqn used to operate an Argosy on the Akrotiri to Luqa run in 1974, later replaced by a C130, I remember a couple of trips, also the Argosy used to do the water drops for the parachute rescue team up to the disbandment in March 1975.
I have dim memories of fitting a domestic fridge into the 70 Sqn VIP aircraft, this was in late 1973 if I remember.
An Argosy into Kingsfield must have been interesting, I was up there shortly after the invasion, but the shuttle to Akrotiri with the evacuees was completed and it was to deactivate the strip and retrieve the equipment.
In 1972 (or 73) a C130 ran into the hangar at Kingsfield and was repaired by 103MU, on completion of the repair a warranty for one trip only was placed inside the F700.

[spekesoftly]

In 1972 (or 73) a C130 ran into the hangar at Kingsfield......Two photos of that C130 about half way down this link.

Kingsfield (http://www.forgottenairfields.com/cyprus/dhekelia/kingsfield-s63.html)

[om15]

Thanks for that link, I knew Dave Osborne on the MU, he was engines and I was a rigger, but I didn't work on that repair, but remember the event.
I applied to join the rescue team, there were several fitters on the MU who had completed the parachute course, ( mainly to relieve the boredom of sitting around the MU waiting for a crash to repair), I did the last parachute training course in November 1974, on completion the whole thing was folded, and the team was disbanded.
This is the last course carried out, I had rather more hair then.


http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u542/timgibbs1/Parachute%20training%20RAF%20Akrotiri%20Nov%201974_zpsrohki3 gr.jpg

[Krystal n chips]

Really ?......;) :D

I did the last parachute training course in November 2014

[om15]

Thanks K&C

[Wander00]

Argosies joined 115 at Watton as flight checkers in 1968 or '69 before going ISTR to Cottesmore with 98 and 360.

[27mm]

Remember them at Cott, interminable ct sorties, interrupted by "c/s downwind for crew and ration change"........

[tlightb]

AWA ARGOSY (http://www.argosyair.co.uk/squadrons.html)

Ref duration of Argosy service on 115 Sqn, this link says changed to Andovers in 1978. I left 115 in 72 and I knew they continued well after that, but not sure when the end date was.

AWA ARGOSY (http://www.argosyair.co.uk/squadrons.html)

[Kieron Kirk]

W/Co Jefford's RAF Squadrons book (Airlife 2001 ISBN 1 84037 141 2) gives the date as January 1978 when replaced by Andovers.

Ciarain.

[gopher01]

In fact it replaced his VIP Hastings WD 500 which was disposed of during my time on the M.U. and we took part in its removal to the tip|

[Fareastdriver]

Yes, for CinC NEAF, probably XP444 as mentioned much earlier in this thread.

Must have been the Argosy I flew in.

I was returning from domcol leave in Southern Rhodesia and I was put on JJ's Argosy at Salisbury. The plan was for me to catch an Ascot from Aden back to the UK.

I think that JJ was flying it because the port mainwheels took a shortcut across the grass whilst we were taxing out. At Nairobi I was offloaded, to be replaced by topsoil, according to the rumours. Then I had to wait at Eastleigh for four days until they could get me on a British Commonwealth Britannia back to the UK.

[Rossian]

.....one of the pilots on my Shack course in late '64 had been on the Argosy squadron in Aden and in fact was the captain of the one that "fell in the water". He was, however, not in either of the seats. He was checking the other two guys and, much against his will, he was "instructed" not to occupy either seat because the idea was he was checking them operating as a "crew".
I think he was a tad bitter, as he felt that he had been hung out to dry by the system that, he felt, had put him in an invidious position. It was the first time (but by no means the last) that I saw the effects of "responsibility without authority".

He also talked about one of the copilots who became a bit of a "meat importer" on the runs bringing the sand for OC Africa's golf course to Nairobi and topsoil for OC NEAF's garden. This meat trading developed to the point the co concerned left the RAF and concentrated on the business. Several years later as we maritime pukes passed through Nairobi en route the big island to the east with Mr H as my captain we visited the ex-co in the penthouse office in a tower block now doing very well for himself.
Funny old world, innit?

The Ancient Mariner

[brakedwell]

Steak from Nairobi market, prawns from Bahrain and crayfish tails from Masirah! Makes my mouth water thinking about it. ISTR fillet steak was one East African Shilling a pound in 1965.

[zetec2]

"Kenya Cold" was the Company that did the packs of meat (and fruit and veg) based in downtown Nairobi (off Arthur Ellis Avenue if memory serves ?) they knew all the schedules and would deliver to both Eastleigh and Embakasi, they also supplied cartons of fresh milk for the home runs to K/sar, remember C in C - JEJ had a standing order with them, his took priority and it was he who had the earth shipped back to K/Sar, when the trucks turned up at Embakasi on the first run (XP439) with the soil the natives started loading without any protective covering on the floor by the shovelful, until the Loadie "Eddie W", stopped proceedings and sent them away until the soil was bagged, still awful messy, I only did one soil run !, that was plenty.

Changing subject who was the Yank exchange pilot who landed at Matsapa with the brakes on ?????? it had happened at Benson with a Yank exchange pilot early on in 62 as well.
PH.

[brakedwell]

I think I used to order my Kenya Cold in the market. I did one trip with JEJ when he took over the LHS for the last hour and practised his low flying until the outskirts of Nairobi. Eastleigh was on parade for their AOC's inspection. The Station Commander was standing to attention by the rear door when JEJ exited through the front crew door, walked along the side of the aircraft and surprised the Stn Cdr with a "Gotcha"!

[Jackw106]

I have a friend who was with 3 Para when this incident happened

el Afraq Armstrong Whitworth Argosy C-1 (XR133) Crashed 7th May 1968

El Adem + Tobruk Reminisce - Argosy XR133 Crash (http://www.don-simmonds.co.uk/argosy.htm)


apologies if this has been done before

[ICM]

Zetec: If the Matsapa incident was from November 1966 (see my post #109), then the pilot was not USAF.

And I see mention now of the crash at El Afraq, a sad business all round. The crew was from 267 Sqn, where I was at the time. I recall a briefing a day or two later for pilots only, with the rest of us excluded, and then being detailed for the Honour Guard at the Service funeral of copilot Oz Greenop, with whom I'd done Argosy conversion and then time on 105 Sqn in Aden and Bahrain.

[JW411]

Going back to Kenya Cold; the man in the market in Nairobi who did all the organising went by the name of Ibrahim Piranditta (or something similar). He would turn up outside the aircraft with God knows how many orders stitched up in Kenya Cold raffia bags and he seldom got it wrong.

Having fresh fillet steak in Aden with all the trimmings such as mushrooms was always a joy but it did not come without risk.

One of our (single) captains was not a fat person to start with but he started losing weight. He was eating for four but still losing weight when the medics finally got round to persuading a three foot tape worm to go into reverse.

Enjoy your dinner.

[brakedwell]

Same thing happened when I was on 105 Jock. The victim called his tapeworm Tarquin!

[JW411]

I only managed 10 years of flying the Argosy for Mrs Windsor (from 1962 until 1971) so I still have a great deal still to learn.

I have no intention of commenting upon the ditching of XP413, the disaster at Got Al Afrag with XR133 or the shifting of garden soil from Nairobi to Aden for JEJ's garden for all three subjects have been done to death on pprune.

However, I am intrigued by Zetec's accusation of "a Yank captain" ripping up the runway at Matsapa.

Let us start with the runway at Matsapa; it looked beautiful from the ground and from the air but the fact was that it consisted of about 1/8" of tarmac sprayed upon murram (or something similar). Frank, who ran the Tower and was also the CFI of the Aero Club used to beg us to go easy on the brakes otherwise the surface would peel-up into a lot of black bananas. Most of the time this worked well but I have to say that, given the option of going off the end and crashing into the valley or saving Frank's beautiful (but rather inadequate surface) I would not for one second have considered keeping the local peace.

Which takes me on to Zetec's rather unfortunate "Yank captain" statement; during my ten years on the Argosy I served on 105, 114 and 267 (twice). I have never heard of exchange aircrew serving on 105 in Aden. On 267 Squadron (until the Viet Nam war started) we usually had an exchange crew from the RAAF consisting of a a captain, a co-pilot and a navigator. (The first thing we used to do was separate them)!

114 Squadron usually had a USAF exchange captain but I doubt they went to Matsapa very often (if ever at all).

Now, 47 (Beverley) Squadron at Abingdon also used to have a USAF exchange captain (I remember meeting Bonzo von H.). I also remember a Beverley arriving at Matsapa and undershooting. He landed several feet below runway level and hit the escarpment. Astonishingly, the Beverley undercarriage stayed in one piece, bounced off the cliff face and ended up on Frank's precious runway. I would imagine that some damage was caused!

So, could it be that Zetec's memory has mixed up a Beverley event with an Argosy event?

[zetec2]

Back from quick break away and can now answer, maybe read "Yank" as Canadian, ? first instance at Benson just before Easter break 62 (Wednesday ?), shortly before the U/C collapse of another (XP412 or 409 ?) on the Thursday, had been humping and lifting GE for the wheel change so was allowed away early for Easter, the u/c collapse/main leg fold up happened on the Thursday afternoon (day before Good Friday 62) believe it was a round robin aircraft taking troops around the country also had some local schoolchildren from Ewelme on board also, I drove back (I lived in Oxford) over the weekend and it was still sat looking rather sad somewhat lopsided but it was back in the shed when I returned on the Tuesday, that's the first one.

Matsapa, again was early 64, one of my last trips before coming home (just prior to the 413 incident) had done the Salisbury run, on the way back up the country on the bus run, again substitute Yank as Canadian or Colonial cousin ?, seem to remember a crew member named "Morrie" think Bill A*****ll was there as well (went onto the Reds) who did the signalling etc getting wheels and tyres from Nairobi, again being a fitter humping wheels not my job Chief but did an awful lot of jacking to assist, so definately not a Beverly I only did Argosies on 105.

Argosy : Went to Benson end of Jan 62, did Bitteswell and Ansty for the Dart,
went out as far as Khormaksar and Bahrein with 847 and 849 on a couple of "proving " flights and placing GE for forthcoming 105 placement, only major problem we had was at K/Sar when we had to get Station workshops to fabricate a reoiling rig for the APU as we didn't carry a Risbridger, otherwise a pleasant ? round trip which until the restrictions placed on the aircraft (pressurisation ? altitude limits) was really quite pleasant, left Benson "X" annotated with a "Q" as well I think beginning of March 62, that's when the fun started !!!!!.
Paul H, zetec2.

[JW411]

Ah so! Not American but Canadian? Well, we certainly had several of them about the place. I don't recall any RCAF/CAF exchange aircrew on the Argosy. The ones I remember were all Canadians serving in the RAF.

[zetec2]

Well here we go after a couple of glasses of Vino Collapso and regaling wife with war stories of episodes past I remembered the name "Yank" Caldwell as the exchange gentleman who accompained us on our South African jollies, ring any bells with you Brakedwell (guess your name not from Argosy days as we only had "discing" - ground fine as I remember), just this afternoon dug out my "fuel trimmer and AWA yoke centrepiece" to try and make my brain work, ah nostalgia, not what it used to be.
Paul H.

[JW411]

I've found the Beverley incident at Matsapa; 29.06.63 Heavy Landing in the undershoot. Bounced off the escarpment and landed on the nosewheels first. 9G was recorded! After about a week on the ground it was decided to ferry the aircraft back to Eastleigh (it was a 30 Squadron aircraft). The aircraft was flown back via Salisbury. On arrival back at base, a gigantic crack was found in the tailplane spar! The tail could have come off at any moment.

[brakedwell]

The Beverley crew were luckier than a good friend of mine who was the captain on the Danair 707 that crashed in Lusaka (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Dan-Air_Boeing_707_crash)

[brakedwell]

That Beverley crew were a lot luckier than a good friend of mine who was the captain on the Dan-Air 707 crash at Lusaka.

1977 Dan-Air Boeing 707 crash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Dan-Air_Boeing_707_crash)

[JW411]

I remember that one too. I flew with his younger brother a few times when he joined us as an F/O on the DC-10 with Fredair. Sadly, it was just before we went bust. I don't know where he went after that.

[Rabies]

Capt. Alan Barker was my father.Died 1977 heart attack. In Australia.

[Cornish Jack]

Re. the 'steak runs', we used to do similar with the Valettas, mid 50s.Two incidents - Phil H couldn't get his tail up on first take-off attempt, so aborted and checked loading. 400 lbs plus assorted meats stowed in the chain locker!!! More balanced arrangement for second (successful) attempt.
Later trip with similar, large, consignment had engine problems en-route and had to divert into Hargeisha. 3 day stopover, no cold storage, VERY 'pongy' cargo off-loaded and many out-of-pocket results. :{

[Lyneham Lad]

Have just finished reading through this very interesting thread. I cannot contribute tales of derring-do in the bondoo, but just a few snippets of the times of my limited involvement with the Whistling Tit.

In 1965 I flew from Scampton to the Bomber Command dispersal at Kinloss on a Mickey Finn. For some reason the Captain decided it was essential to go low-level and due to less than inclement weather we were given a very rough ride, such that all except one of us were soon making use of the sick-bags. This chap was sitting opposite me (we were in para seats) looking very smug until he succumbed to an epileptic fit. It was only after he had been restrained did the a/c Captain condescend to gain altitude into smoother air.

As an aside, our return some days later was on a Hastings. When we landed back at Scampton we were greeted with the news of the fatal accident of a Hastings due to elevator bolt fatigue.

Having been posted to 390MU Seletar, I was detached to Kuching to help the 66 Sqn Belvedere detachment catch on their Mod programme. Outward flight was on a 34 Sqn Bev but return was somewhat faster and smoother courtesy of a 215 Sqn Argosy.

Next involvement was to be allocated to a working party sent daily to Changi to carry out a number of modification programmes on aircraft undergoing Base servicing. My job was to install the lower anti-coll light, which involved not only cutting the hole in the lower skin but also to install a hefty external reinforcement plate and build a pressure box to sit on top of the light. Mod programmes are supposed to go through a 'proving fit' prior to mod kits and leaflets being despatched. Whoever had signed-off the mod clearly had not actually done a trial installation. Not only did the joggle in the reinforcing plate not match up with the longitudinal beam, the sequence for building the pressure box then riveting it into the a/c was impossible. We could have downed tools, reported the problems and waited months for a resolution. Instead we sorted it out for ourselves, sent back a report on what we had done then carried on as aircraft came in for their base service. Actually, the most boring and thankless part of the mod was the need to lift all the floor panels down the port side for the electrician to run a new cable - this involved having to remove hundreds of hi-torq screws that inevitably had chewed-up slots. Drill and eezy-out ad-nauseum.

A sister team had a job involving changes in the u/c bays involving positioning of sequence valves. They would do whatever they had to do and then leave the functional checks to the base team to carry out at a later stage. One day we wandered back from the crew-room to be greeted by all the Argosy guys standing around the a/c giving us a round of applause. Mucho puzzled glances from us. They then fired up the hyd rig and selected u/c up. One leg went up, the other stayed down. Selected down and the other leg went up while the up leg hammered its way down through the u/c doors which had not opened. Lots of red faces from the guys responsible...

After we had pretty much worked our way through the fleet installing the anti-coll lights, the mod kit was reissued and mirrored the changes we had found necessary - made us feel better!

So endeth my involvement with the Argosy.

[ICM]

To celebrate the resuscitation of this thread, some more from my recently rediscovered box of slides from yesteryear. Firstly, two showing aspects of a turnround at Salalah circa February 1967:

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc463/Old141Nav/file_20.jpg

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc463/Old141Nav/file_19.jpg

And now, over Salalah on 2 April 1967, when the airfield was closed after very heavy rains along the coast (including back at Khormaksar) the previous day. A sortie was laid on to drop 2 x 1-ton containers of rations and mail to the beleaguered community below, and I'd say this was taken shortly after release of the first:

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc463/Old141Nav/file_21.jpg

[Four Wings]

I haven't read through this thread fully so forgive me if this titbit has already been noted.
RAF Argosies at one time carried fare paying civilian passengers. After an Aden Airways DC 3 was blown up en route Maifah - Aden in Nov 66, all internal Aden Airways flights were grounded. The most important route was Aden to Mukalla Riyan so the RAF provided an Argosy service for civilians charging the Aden Airways fare. I remember the RAF demanded cash in hand (no company accounts accepted!).

[Exnomad]

I thought that was the Beverley, described as flying a block of flats from a second floor window.