AW139 induced Back Pain

[scottishterrier]

I conducted a quick survey today among some of my colleagues and discovered that most like me,were experiencing various levels of pain and discomfort associated with lower back pain.
I have concluded that it is due to the action of applying or pressurising the parking brakes.
Any others having similar experience let me know

or try this.....

Sitting on a fairly upright seat, Lift both feet off floor, out stretch your legs keeping heels off the floor and rotate ankles together in an action like apply brakes on your car.........This is done to pressurise the brake system for parking and locking for offshore landings.

[mfriskel]

Is there some strange action or combination of actions associated with the parking brakes? I would have thought a certain vibration, but applying brakes, that is interesting.

[9Aplus]

Far, far ago they invented elctric hidraulic pumps (even on some 109) :}

[Epiphany]

Man up and get into the gym.

[heliski22]

Or else get the fancy Fischer seats...........:E

[9Aplus]

Right, right - Gym on board, not just common glass cockpit Bells and whistles :E

[scottishterrier]

Apparently an electo operated sytem is available from the manufacturer !

[Prawn2king4]

It is my contention that one of the reasons back pain is experienced by some helicopter pilots is a result of slight out of balance flying.
Placing the ball exactly in the middle in something as un-aerodynamic as the average helicopter does not necessarily result in a perfectly balanced machine.
Therefore when the pilot relaxes his body, particularly with all the holds in, there can occur an unconscious slight twisting at the waist to compensate for the out of balance forces. The cumulative effect of this twisting may cause the problem.
Just a thought….;)

[Driptray]

Hmmm, could the "out of balance" or "twisting" be cured by something as simple as having the pilots remove their wallets from their back pocket, I am sure that that sitting on something so large under one cheek of their delicate bot bot would almost certainly be a contributing factor here!:ok:

[fayslag]

Just try and relax, look well ahead and pick a marker.............

[Non-PC Plod]

Terrier,

which sort of seat do you have fitted? I had a student last week who could hardly move with sciatica, and found the old-style seat really uncomfortable - the seat edges being easy to feel through the seat pad.

Prawn - the 139 balances itself when you take your feet off the pedals, so its probably not the problem.

[oldbeefer]

Get a life - try flying a Wessex for 8hrs at a time!

[Shackman]

Get another life - Whirlwind for 3 hours! Although I agree the Wessex for 8 hours (or more) compounded the back ache from the Whirlwind (although for oldbeefer it was probably the Sycamore or Dragonfly!).

[Epiphany]

You lot will be complaining about sore fingers from operating the FMS next - or sore feet from not being carried out to the aircraft. Get a life indeed.

[griffothefog]

You have heard the expression "Bolkow back" ? Try 7 years on that and your spine will look like an old banana :E

[scottishterrier]

I really have no idea what kind of seats are fitted.Probably the base model cheapest and lightest.

I have little interest in what a Wessex was like, this is a 21st century machine with all the bells and whistles added at a design stage for the very purpose of easing the cockpit workload, just like an 777 A330 etc. Thank you to the CNUTs who see it their purpose to add to all topics and threads with snide and and cynical remarks. Get a life indeed !
Dont spend your life on prune and you too could be suffering the consequences of an ill thought out design.

[Epiphany]

If I am one of the cynical CNUTS to whom you so poetically refer then perhaps I wouldn't be quite so cynical if I didn't read about a pilot with a job that would be the envy of many complaining about having to exert a little pressure to apply wheel brakes. My 10 year old daughter could do it and if it is done properly two applications is all that is required.

Have you thought about a change of profession or a change of type, or strengthening your back with a little exercise or purchasing some back support or perhaps you are waiting for someone else to do something about it?

[scottishterrier]

I have no intention of getting in to any personal exchange over how difficult or easy it maybe , I am merely casting my survey to 139 pilots generally to establish if this is common to 139 crews.

Piffle are you rated on this type ?

[heliski22]

Just how many brake applications a day are you making, then?

Serious question, honest!

[Epiphany]

Jockmongrel - if I wasn't I wouldn't be commenting.

[griffothefog]

ST,

We do about 5-6 apps per day when we are flying and on the old variant it does need 3-4 pushes, unless you have the right technique. On the newer type it can be done in 1-2.

Me with the banana shaped spine(see previous vitriolic and irrelevant post)....... No probs, and I'm well into my 50's :ok:

[Um... lifting...]

Epiphany is correct. I do it 4-6 times a day, and if you know what you're doing it's not difficult.

Why are you 'stretching' for the pedals in the first place? A proper seating position would allow you to fully displace either pedal without shifting your butt in the seat. We operate with two different seat types, the two-adjustment variety and the single-adjustment type, and it doesn't make any difference if you set up your seating position correctly. We have pilots from about 5'3" to 6'6" and none of the couple dozen among us has a problem, to my knowledge, and certainly nothing like a plurality. Even in our older frames, two pumps is sufficient.

Lower back pain, about 95 times out of 100, means that your abdominal muscles are out of condition, though I realize that most helicopter pilots would rather wear a neoprene corset at work and blame it on the machine. To do otherwise might necessitate missing the first pint of the evening and having word get out they might be getting a bit of exercise.

[ShyTorque]

Hang on - don't try to introduce ergonomics or pilot comfort into helicopter design. It compromises performance and anyway, why break the age-old tradition?

I don't have the problem of personal discomfort in the 139 but probably only because I don't fly the 139.

The S-76 causes a similar problem, so does the S-70. In fact every helicopter I've flown has discomfort issues in some respect. Not to mention the aching neck, sagging spine, lowered shoulder etc.

[scottishterrier]

Piff, You seem to comment on just about all subject matter posted here so I merely queried your ability to speak from an experience standpoint.

I thank you for your comments and general bitterness.

[scottishterrier]

Shy,
I am not trying to liken the 139 with other types, I also have flown S76 and it is not the same.

[Epiphany]

Precious - I only comment on subjects that I have a direct and therefore relevant experience of. I have been flying the 139 on and off for some years and there is nothing wrong with my back. I do however keep myself fit and this also helps me to maintain a positive and optimistic outlook on life in general. No need to thank me - you are very welcome. :ok:

[Camp Freddie]

I have been applying 139 park brake for almost 5 years now, for most of that on my own and latterly with both pilots together to share the load (and avoid the chance of your foot slipping and putting in an abrupt pedal input)

Either way I have not heard people complaining about it, wheras they did all the time about the original seat types with the side bars that dig in.

Personally I don't see a problem with the brake

Regards CF

[heliski22]

ST,

Well, I can't compare with 5 or 6 times every day cos I didn't fly the thing every day. However, I do recall one day I did 28 sectors in it, brakes on every other time, and there was no back pain at all - more than could be said for my arse having to listen to the whinging SLF as they got drunker towards evening!! :)

22

[funderrc]

We are currently operating 14 AW139's in the Middle East. Our first 5 aircraft that we received in mid 2008 were equipped with the manual parking brake. The next 9 are equipped with the power parking brake. What a world of difference!

We have ordered the power parking brake as a retrofit for our first 5 aircraft.

In regards to the back problems, one time I was showing a pilot how to set the brake with one pump of the toe brakes. In order to do this, you have to get low in the seat and get your feet up off the floor. With one long and slow pump, you can get the green light. On this occasion, I felt something let go in my lower back. That was the last time I tried to demo that maneuver. I am 5'10" and my stomach looks like a 6 pack. Well, maybe a 6 pack of a dozen donuts from Krispy Kreme donuts. :D

[stickysunrise]

ST is a fit dog, so only question here is technique or design. Following correct procedures, how much difference in technique can you apply to protect your back with the seat and a/c given?

who is lucky and who isn't in this industry re: jobs, Ephifanny? If you worked on this aircraft everyday and found the same, you may be hobbling down the aisle with your daughter in 15 years time- health is wealth, i'm sure you protect yours!

[tottigol]

Having flown the 139 for over two years offshore with an average of 6 to 8 sectors a day I cannot complain of having back pain just to set the parking brake.
There are other factors to consider:
If you are completing several fairly short range sectors, why are you releasing the brake at all, is it not holding pressure as listed in the RFM?
Perhaps you ought to check on that.

We, as helicopter pilots have ingrained in our genetics to whine and complain about things that disrupt our standard routine, no matter how small and insignificant those things may be.

Oh, and yes, just standing on your feet against a wall and lifting yourself on your toes ten or twelve times produces enough exercise to overcome the need for a back brace just for setting the parking brake in the 139.
In my opinion is a far more strenuous adventure trying to reach for those "well thought of" side steps to climb on top of the aircraft during your pre-flight inspection.

[SASless]

We, as helicopter pilots have ingrained in our genetics to whine and complain about things that disrupt our standard routine, no matter how small and insignificant those things may be.



Tell me it ain't so! Helicopter Pilots "whine"?:oh:


As to our stalwart chap in Saudi......six pack? More like a keg as I recall! Leastways thats what a certain South African former trucking company owner friend of mine said recently!:E

[lowfat]

Jez you lot want the Moon on a stick....

and then the colour of the stick would be wrong.....:{

Tell you what give me a shout and I will put the park brake on for you and carry you back to the shed... One lump or two?

Ah bless is the coffee too hot? I will blow on it for you.