Armed Forces Pension Calculator/Pension Forecast differences

[Hugh FW]

I have been having a bit of a ding dong with SPVA and a pension forecast.

The long and the short of it is - when I input my service to the on-line calculator I get an EDP of about £900 pa more than what AFPS SPVA say in the pension forecast?

There have been several letters and checking of details however, now, if I want to continue to question their findings, it's £75 in advance!

I'm a member of the FPS and will enlist their help but I just wanted to highlight this incase anyone is nearing leaving :ok: and they get told the money is going to be less than the on-line calculator. I had presumed it would have been fairly representative, give or take a few quid?

Anyone else had this?

Hugh FW

[Biggus]

Check your PMs....

[Spurlash2]

The forecast uses current pay rates and not the future ones, which is what the calculator uses, and why you think you are about to be seen off!

I think...

[Hugh FW]

Spurlash2, negative mate.

I have specifically used the details that SPVA used in their forecast for that very reason. I know I'll be on a higher salary but I wanted to compare apples for apples, so I used their own specified criteria.

Still £900 down per year on my EDP from the calculator.

Hugh

[SaddamsLoveChild]

I too have a difference of approx £900 to my detriment............is the programme wrong or is it the SPVA calcs.........they would not explain it to me and also stated that any further enquiries would require £75.

Why dont the 2 tie up?

[Hugh FW]

SLC, Hmmmmm,

I suspect the on-line calculator is wrong if two of us have a £900 loss quoted by SPVA. Was that from your EDP too?

My last letter to them included a copy of the on-line calculation however, their response was to refer me to their own calculations and effectively stop pestering them as their calcs were supposedly correct and the on-line calculator was set up so we can do the sums and not need to bother them!!

They neglected to answer the question as to why there was a £900 difference.

I'm presuming now that their numbers are correct and the calculator wrong. That doesn't fix the problem though.

I'll let you know what, if anything, transpires.

Hugh FW

[Al R]

Hugh,

I remember that the online calculator once had an issue with coping with part yearly incremental calculations. I wonder if that might be rearing its head again. I wonder if there is any significance in the fact you and SLC are both out by £900 (if you are both of similar personal circumstances). I remember too, that a year or so back, JPA was inadvertantly (and without telling people) chucking some people from '75 to '05.. are you both working to the same AFPS?

Also, you use the phrase 'Pay Rates' - are you '05 (that phrase would apply)? If you are '75, and have done an up to date calculation, are you and SPVA both working to 2010 Pension Codes (AFPS 75) and Pay Rates (AFPS 05)? If you are '75 however, remember that the online calculator assumes that for Pension Code purposes, the rank you are using is your substantive rank and you have held this rank for at least two years - SPVA might be working to a different set of info. It does does not take into account any AVCs that may be been paid either and does not forecast life commutation.

Either way, as you seem to be guessing, only one can be right and the published caveat for the calculator does state its liabilities and limitations. But it does seem strange that it is so clearly 'out' for no particular reason, and whatever that reason, the snag might need to be explored and addressed if it is to have any credibility. SPVA is generally professionally courteous so if you want to (possibly) avoid the charge and ask the right questions at the same time, I'd be glad to send a letter on your behalf, or provide you with the wording. If the former, you'd need to sign a form authorising SPVA to engage with me on an info basis on your behalf, thats all. If you like, I'd be glad to follow it up on your behalf - out of a sense of curiosity if nothing else, as well as it being a potentially worrying loose end.

[Hugh FW]

Al,

Thanks for the pm. I'll give you a call.

Hugh

[Geehovah]

The rates are actually calculated on your day of retirement so I guess there would be variations. I retired Apr 10 on APFS05. I cant find the pensions calculator estimate at 09 rates but my final figures were £2k more on the pension and 6k more on the gratuity than the 08 rates had predicted.

Are all your dates correct as its worked on a daily basis I believe?

[Hugh FW]

Gee

Again that's quite worrying when people are using this tool as a means to decide if they can financially leave or not. Luckily for you it worked out in your favour however, mine is less. 2K more !! What's the point of a calculator I ask myself?

That is all based on day specific dates too BTW.

Hugh

[vfr into cloud]

I have just recieved my pension forcast from SPVA and it is bang on what the pension calc says, with only my pension abatement in respect of commutaion that is slightly more than the calc states.

However, no one at the SPVA or PSF can say with any kind of accuracy when these payments will hit my bank account.:=

I have been told the next working day to as far as 2 months :ugh:

Does anyone have any evidance of time scales for payments of pension and gratuity?

[gijoe]

I too have a difference of approx £900 to my detriment............is the programme wrong or is it the SPVA calcs.........they would not explain it to me and also stated that any further enquiries would require £75.

I find this bit quite interesting. Have they forgotten what S stands for in their title and for what reason, whom etc they are there?

Getting a quote for divorce is a different matter; trying to find out what you might be getting when leaving after serving 16+,22+ years etc and other Pension queries is their raison d'etre.

I hear wholeheartedly hear what Al R says about treading softly but if the time comes how about suggesting to them that if they don't start sorting it out and doing their job then each letter you send them will be £75+VAT?

G:ok:

[Biggus]

Hugh - I think I may have found a possible reason for the different figures - check your PMs.

Mind you, if I'm right it's a fairly obvious error in the pension calculator, which you would like to think has been spotted by now....

If you feel I have a valid point then feel free to go public with it....

[Geehovah]

Does anyone have any evidance of time scales for payments of pension and gratuity?

Pension is paid on a set day of the month in arrears at one twelfth of the annual rate. In my case I retired on the 17th and it is paid on the 20th.

Wrt the gratuity mine was paid 10 days after my retirement date although I wont bore you with the cock up that occurred. Suffice to say, make sure if you ever had an FMD lodged that you cancelled it or your gratuity will spin in cyberspace for a good few weeks.

[Sand4Gold]

Does anyone know why SPVA don't include in their letter a breakdown of the calculation they used to arrive at the pension (05) one has been 'awarded' on retirement?

Would also be interested to know if anyone has been successful in requesting a line-by-line printout from SPVA after they have retired?


S4G

[Hugh FW]

Sand,

My letter number 4 from SPVA broke down their calc. This allowed me to check their sums which seem correct however, it doesn't fix the problem that the on-line calculator is pushing out incorrect figures for some of us. People are making life changing decisions based upon the on-lne calculator. It MUST be a reliable tool and it needs to be sorted.

Biggus may have identified a reason for the difference in the calcs which highlights a glitch in the on line calculator calcs.

SPVA need to fix the issue and stop asking for £75 + VAT to discuss the problem.

Rgds

Hugh

[Al R]

Hugh, Biggus, SLC etc,

If you like, I will PM you the details of the Group Captain who runs with 'Financial Capability' planning within the MoD/RAF. Drop me a line if you would like them - I do lots of RAF presentations and it galls if I am advising people to do something that might inadvertantly mislead them. When I find the time this week, and as I suggested to Hugh, I might e-mail the Group Captain the link to this thread. The explanation might be obvious and the solution an easy one to implement.

I agree with Hugh - it is a bad state of affairs if the very first step to assessing post-career retirement financial options has a detrimental basic flaw in it - and one that no one has addressed, especially if they know about it. Think back to the debacle of 2009 (?) when it was discovered that pensions were being overpaid and subsequently reclaimed.. mine one of 'em. :rolleyes:

[Background Noise]

There are notes about these estimates on the calculator - this may cover your case:

Your final pensionable earnings are the greatest amount of pensionable earnings that has been earned in 365 consecutive days falling within the last three years. This calculator does not take this into account and assumes your final pensionable pay is the pay level you have input.

So if you retire early in the financial year, your pension would be based largely on the previous year's salary rather than your current one.

[Biggus]

BN,

Thanks for your input, while your point is valid, I don't think this is the issue in Hugh FW's case. Especially given his planned reirement date.


Given that some of the information Hugh provided me with regarding his case is of a personal nature, I feel unable to discuss the specifics of his situation any further. I will leave it to Hugh to decide how much he wishes to disclose on a public forum.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be secretive or withold information, but I feel unable to disclose information Hugh provided by PM without his consent, and he is also obviously much more familiar with the details of his own situation.


Also, given that there is a pay freeze for the next 2 years (apart from annual incruements), this particular point is less likely to be an issue for some, at least for a while.


Once again, thanks for contributing...

[Exiled]

Might I suggest that those who think that there might be a problem use the following route to ensure that it gets looked at ASAP?

Contact Details for SPVA Service Delivery Complaints
http://www.ipublish.dii.r.mil.uk/nlapps/images/rc/date_released_en.gif 08 Sep 2010
SPVA Service Delivery Complaints are dealt with by the SPVA Pay Allowances Casework & Complaints Cell (PACCC).

If you are experiencing any SPVA JPA Service Delivery related problems you must in the first instance contact your Unit HR who will either resolve your issue or advise you to contact the JPAC EC (http://www.ipublish.dii.r.mil.uk/nlapps/docs/default.asp?fid=840). You should make use of the I-Support and Service Request procedures to report any problems you are experiencing. Service Delivery is defined as "the method of providing services to Service Personnel".
When you have exhausted all the avenues above and your issue has still not been resolved then you can submit a formal SPVA Service Delivery Complaint in writing to the address below. The following information must be included:

Number, Rank, Name and Service
Your contact details (to include telephone number and email address)
Your unit HR contact details
Service Request or I-support number(s) and dates raised
A summary of your complaint with full supporting documentationAddresses for formal SPVA Service Delivery Complaints


MAILEMAILFAXSPVA JPA Complaints

MP 600
Kentigern House
65 Brown Street
Glasgow
G2 8EX
(MOD)
SPVA-JPA-COMPLAINTS


(Internet)
[email protected] ([email protected])
(MOD)
94561 2605

(CIVILIAN)
0141 224 2605

[Hugh FW]

Exiled.

Many thanks however, the Kentigern Glasgow address is the same one I have been using. Albeit not the complaints dept but the pensions dept.

I make no apologies for having little faith in the system. That view point based upon my JPA/SPVA experiences thus far.

I am in discussions with other agencies e.g. FPS and will assess if your avenue is worth while when all other possibilities are exhausted.

It was felt necessary to highlight this to the wider audience sooner rather than later as decisions are being made now. Weeks of to/fro with Glasgow already, have not been very fruitfull.

Hugh

[Exiled]

Hugh,
I can't help but feel that you are wrong and you have a responsibility to ensure it is properly dealt with, particularly as you have raised it here. If there is a problem with the calculator it has the potential to affect a number of people who are at a critical decision making point. Unless you use the correct channels for raising the issue to allow it to be assessed you are selling these people short. You have said that SPVA would charge you £75 for assessing the issue which is completely untrue if you use this channel. Its all very well using the FPS to assess your own circumstances however I doubt that they have a particular interest in dealing with SPVA to sort out the calculator, should it be at fault. I hope that having highlighted this issue you will find the time to explain what its resolution is to those who have followed this thread.

[Hugh FW]

Exiled.

Upon refelection and as you asked sooo nicely, I have raised an i-support today and I will of course feedback any findings from any sources to the concerned on this forum.

Rgds

Hugh

[Hugh FW]

As promised, I have today had the party line from SPVA.

SPVA are "not responsible" for the online pension calculator and the website has "many caveats" highlighting that it is only to be used as "a guide". It is encumbant on the service person to check any figures given and even though I had a £900 difference in my EDP, as it was less than 10% of the actual EDP, it was an acceptible difference and no action would be taken to correct the online calculator.

Furthermore; even if the disparity was in excess of 10% of actual calculations/forecasts, there would be little or no impetus to address the calculator short comings as the costs would be prohibitive.

So there you have it. Don't take the online calculator as gospel and get a full and proper pension forecast from more than one source as it could be quite different to what you actually receive.

Rgds

[Exiled]

Hugh,

Well done for having brought this up, and for following it through. One would have thought that SPVA would realise that sorting out any error now would save them a great deal of pain down the line if it turns out that people are making redundancy decisions based upon duff information....then again, perhaps not.

[ghostnav]

Can someone explain to me why anyone has to pay to find out the value of something that is theirs??

This is the thin edge of the wedge especially in a time of uncertainty.

Perhaps this issue might be forwarded up the chain as well as it is merely cheap profiteering.

[Hugh FW]

In all fairness to SPVA, the policy is to allow one free pension forecast per service person each year however, if any further requests are made within the same year they charge £75+VAT. I don't agree with the charging but there is one free each year.

My concern was that when I asked further questions regarding the online calculator versus pension forecast, they asked for the money to continue discussions even though I wasn't really requesting another pension forecast.

All I wanted to know was why there was a difference.

Rgds

[TheMightyHunter]

The pension calculator has no plans to change its workings to support those on AFPS 75, who now get a full pension at 18 not 22. It is too costly! (it currently gives a totally unrepresentative sum of money, but we didn't sign on the "dotted line" so no one cares! )

The pension calculator also has no plans to fairly represent those on Professional Aviator Spine because the people we are talking about are "too minimal" to represent a major change in the calculator!

How many more things need to be highlighted before the awful calculator gets changed!!!

[pasptoo]

SPVA are "not responsible" for the online pension calculator and the website has "many caveats" highlighting that it is only to be used as "a guide

Make sure you get it correct prior to leaving, I informed them several times by emails, letters and telephone calls that their Pension Forecast was wildly out. Only to be forcibly told that the Calculator was merely a tool and that the final say was their calculations. :ugh:

Needless to say several months after retiring, I was the "villain" who owed money as it was over paid. They were not very nice in their approach to recovering the overpayment either (lawyers and court threats !) :ouch:

Maybe their inability to conduct their business correctly is another reason the MoD is in such a bad way!

It all left quite a sour taste after some very good memories.

[Exiled]

Mighty Hunter,

Quote "The pension calculator also has no plans to fairly represent those on Professional Aviator Spine because the people we are talking about are "too minimal" to represent a major change in the calculator!"

Sorry I can't let that go, PAS are covered by the calculator, more hunting practice required.

[indie cent]

to fairly represent those on Professional Aviator Spine


Exiled,

Just to jump in... Whilst PAS are "covered", the figures projected on the pension calculator are (to my knowledge) significantly distorted. Ask those on PA who have PVR'd and they'll tell you of the discrepancies. The Calculator calculations appear to work on reducing what you would have received at the 5 year option in a linear manner. A wise man will know that PVRing before the 5yr/43 point gives an actual pension pot not much greater than that owed at the original 38 point.

Ignoring Mighty Hunter's terrible split infinitive, the hint was there in the use of "fairly".

One might imagine that with redundancies in the offing, there would at least be a comprehensive online calculator to allow life decisions to be made... We live in hope. Ho hum!

[Exiled]

Indie, noted thanks. Just to clarify, the calculator does not take account of the requirement to complete 5 years on tne spine to receive the pensions uplift?

[indie cent]

Exiled,

Correctamundo...

...to the best of my knowledge!

[Exiled]

From what I can find out it appears that SPVA are waiting for the introduction of a new contract next year, which will include the provision of a pension calculator. Bottom line is they have no money or particular interest in improving the existing device. If you need an accurate statement you'll have to request one from them. The fact that this is likely to put more pressure on their resources than sorting the calculator appears not to have occurred to them.

[indie cent]

The fact that this is likely to put more pressure on their resources than sorting the calculator appears not to have occurred to them.


Exiled,

I appear to have ruptured something.

Very amusing!

[Al R]

Hugh,

I wonder if your perseverance has extracted some response from the Hallowed Halls of Power?

[Wander00]

Alwys been the same in the RAF with computing no good if not invented here!. Back in the 80s we (ie Command Accounts) found some bright Officers i/c bars were writing little programmes to keep the stock book and the accounts - very enterprising but all different. Suggested to the PTB that we went to the (then) little organisation called SAGE and bought a basic book keeping programme to use Service-wide. Oh, no said the gurus in the computing bit at Binnsworth - someone might find how to alter the programme and make it operate fraudulently. So a fortune was spent and staff employed writing a bespoke programme ( that was slow ponedrous and years late) instead of buying something simple and useable off the shelf. Would have save man-years of work on non-public funds (mainly of GD people doing secondary duties).

[Hugh FW]

Al,

I have forwarded you a copy of a further communication from SPVA.

I had a phone call and a letter from a Lt RN chap at SPVA rather than a civvie. Unbeknown to me my issue had been taken up by him and accordingly he now stated that the problem regarding EDP differences on the 05 scheme, have apparently been resolved.

He was also keen to point out that the same issue affected the new redundancy calculator and when I highlighted it, he was able to ensure that the problem was removed from both the pension calculator and the new redundancy calculator at the same time.

So, some success and thank you to the "system".

NB The calculator must still be regarded as "only a guide" and a discrepancy of less than 10% is acceptable in the eyes of the calculator software peeps.

User beware. Get proper advice before making any life changing decisions.

Rgds

Hugh

[Al R]

Good to see someone can still take ownership of a problem on their own initiative - good to see.

Speak soon.