LHR nostalgia

[WHBM]

My father ... it was like a vintage train car inside, with curtains and table lamps and dark wood paneling. He also said the stewardesses were ugly as sin, with thighs as thick as tree trunks.
I've found a 1957 photo of an Aeroflot Tu104 interior, complete with curtains (which remind me of what was still in a Convair 580 in the 1980s) and stewardess.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/su/su57/su57-02.jpg

Looking at that flight attendant uniform, I'm sure your mother would have wanted to know just HOW he discovered about the thighs :)

[BEagle]

He also said the stewardesses were ugly as sin, with thighs as thick as tree trunks.

Some years ago I was involved in the Gorbachev / Thatcher meeting at RAF Brize Norton as one of the aircrew assisting the 4 x Il62 crews. My colleague and I looked after the first aircraft; once the 40-odd KGB security team had been taken to the Gateway Gulag for a meal, we were invited on board...

Yes, rather quaint wood fittings, but superbly warm. Then a rather stern senior flight attendant, bearing a remarkable resemblance to Rosa Klebb, asked whether we'd like coffee. "Yes, please, that would be really nice", we answered - whereupon she turned into everyone's favourite prep school matron, chuckled happily and went to sort it out. A minute or so later a bevy of absolutely gorgeous young ladies appeared with coffee and Russian chocolates, serving us with girlish giggles.

It was a very interesting day; when the catering turned up from Heathrow, it included 2 huge polythene bags with greenery inside. "Perhaps they really do eat cabbage sandwiches", I thought. But it turned out to be 5kg of parsley - someone had got the decimal place wrong as they'd only ordered 500g for garnish!

All were very friendly, although the rather obvious aircraft security chap sitting in the corner in his track suit looked like he wouldn't stand any nonsense. When the USAF navigator (required by the Americans for flying to Washington, their next leg) turned up, there were some appreciative sounds from the flight deck as she was a very attractive young lady who fitted her uniform very nicely indeed. "Surely you have female aircrew in the USSR?", I asked my 'Aeroflot' host. "Da - we do. But not like her!", he smiled.

[olympus]

I thought the 'Lapwing' club was the BAA Heathrow flying club; operated out of Denham with Beagle Terrier G-ARUI?

It was/is. When I instructed for them in the seventies (briefly, before a falling-out with Frank Quick) they had a Beagle Pup G-AXJH (I think) followed by a Rallye ST150 G-BECC. Not sure if they are still going; it's almost twenty years since I was last at Denham

[bayer328]

The only "western" points Aeroflot served before 1960 were Copenhagen and Vienna. I presume Copenhagen is too flat. Any prospect of Vienna ?
I think it would have been Vienna.

[washoutt]

And Amstrdam. As a little boy, my father and I went looking at aircraft at Schiphol Airport, and it was 1956, november or thereabouts. The Tu 104 was sitting on the platform, and when starting its engines, a burning fluid dripped out of the tailpipe. Oh, so spectacular. see picture.

[proald]

It was/is. When I instructed for them in the seventies (briefly, before a falling-out with Frank Quick) they had a Beagle Pup G-AXJH (I think) followed by a Rallye ST150 G-BECC. Not sure if they are still going; it's almost twenty years since I was last at Denham

I used to clean G-ARUI as a kid in the late sixties for the occasional ride in the back. Quick was the CFI then. I think Lapwing were the Civil Service Flying Club which I guess would have encompassed BAA. They had no other aircraft then apart from occasional loan of Muskateer G-ASFB ( much more comfortable in the back)

[chevvron]

I used to clean G-ARUI as a kid in the late sixties for the occasional ride in the back. Quick was the CFI then. I think Lapwing were the Civil Service Flying Club which I guess would have encompassed BAA. They had no other aircraft then apart from occasional loan of Muskateer G-ASFB ( much more comfortable in the back)
I flew in the back of 'RUI on 5 May '65; Denham 30 min local.

[eckhard]

And Frank Quick did my PPL check-ride in XJH in 1974.
Then I converted on to the Chipmunk owned by one of the club members and learned to fly all over again, properly!

[Dockwell]

Does anyone remember the PanAm Mx hangar next to the Hunting hangar on the south side of LHR ? There was a cafe (Kaff) also painted blue for the workers amongst others and you could just wander in there and partake of the offerings as a paying customer. I can remember going up to a B707 sticking out of the hangar in Biman colours, no reg and kicked the tyres (as you do). It didn't end well for my toes only protected by a thin layer of plastic leather trainers. When you consider the security nowadays, it was nearly nonexistent back then!

Not the greatest photo, but this must be near the area your talking about
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5575/14819302354_9a67d9e7d7_h.jpg2011-02-20_58

by Eelmoor Farnborough (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eelmoor/), on Flickr

[HZ123]

1972/73 Frank was the Operations Manager at STN and as part of his duties he flew the lighting checks at STN and LGW. I accompanied him a couple of times, I believe he had his own Cessna 150. We would fly to LGW and collect a twin, wish I could remember type. Usually he had the twin for a couple of days. Once again how times have changed as lighting checks took place during the evening! Do not know why he did not do do LHR or whom the Scots BAA airports were checked by.

[chevvron]

1972/73 Frank was the Operations Manager at STN and as part of his duties he flew the lighting checks at STN and LGW. I accompanied him a couple of times, I believe he had his own Cessna 150. We would fly to LGW and collect a twin, wish I could remember type. Usually he had the twin for a couple of days. Once again how times have changed as lighting checks took place during the evening! Do not know why he did not do do LHR or whom the Scots BAA airports were checked by.

I remember an Aero Commander flying lighting checks.

[treadigraph]

Yep, BAA had a Shrike Commander from mid 70s - reg escapes me - let's try G-INFO.

Shrike was G-BCLK, replaced by Commander 685 G-BFGB. Anything earlier than 'CLK?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

PanAm used to move their "Super stairs" from the central area to PanAm maintenance, giving rise to a chant of "Here he comes, Super stairs going to the hangar to collect his spares.."

[dixi188]

In the 1980s BAA had Turbo Commander 690B, G-BXYZ.

IIRC it had three cameras looking forward, sideways and down.

It was also used for air taxi charters.

[Discorde]

More video from the good old days:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNHTu4Zhgew
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buPeTOHCAxg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsTS4gjVtrc

[rog747]

My first flights as a kid were from 1964-1968 always on British Eagle or BEA from LAP to BCN VCE RMI AGP VLC and PMI

We always checked in usually at the London Air Terminals and took their coaches out to LAP, but a couple of times we checked in at the Europa Building (T2)
I recall European and Domestic flights operating from there and the Oceanic Terminal opened in 1962 handled BOAC etc...

Re the 1955 video above shows the new QB, the tower and the Europa Terminal, So my Q is before the Oceanic Terminal was completed were all the transcontinental and long hauls still handled over at North-side?

[Level bust]

I wonder how many of those children in the 2nd video went on to have a career in aviation? It was certainly how I got into it!

[DaveReidUK]

Re the 1955 video above shows the new QB, the tower and the Europa Terminal, So my Q is before the Oceanic Terminal was completed were all the transcontinental and long hauls still handled over at North-side?

AFAIK, the 1950 Northside terminal was used up to the date that the Oceanic Terminal (later T3) was opened:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/669x441/northside_terminal_small_ffedb9c14937e252bae6f555e454cc7e465 1bcb0.jpg

[Max Tow]

The first clip is dated 1961 but looks more like 1953 (Comet & Elizabethan together)?

[rog747]

AFAIK, the 1950 Northside terminal was used up to the date that the Oceanic Terminal (later T3) was opened:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/669x441/northside_terminal_small_ffedb9c14937e252bae6f555e454cc7e465 1bcb0.jpg


Many thanks.

[Discorde]

Here's a (4-runway) LHR in 1969:


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1965x1320/lhr_1969_v2_2fb0275742667d209b9ae54d182f82afae65265a.jpg
Pub quiz question: what was LHR's telephone no. in 1969? What was the derivation of this no?

[spekesoftly]

what was LHR's telephone no. in 1969? What was the derivation of this no? Tel: 01 759 4321 ?

Derived from SKYport exchange and the old rotary dial phones that had both letters and numbers. (S=7, K=5 and Y=9) ?

[rog747]

Our BMA Viscounts were often were parked out on a remote stand at LHR on the C's and or the D's
Anyone know the stand number - my memory is a bit short on that one lol

We always used A7 A9 B2 B4 B10 and B12 when it was created
B6 now and again.

plus often we got put on N49 N51 and rarely on the far and away stand 151 (yeah great for a 30 mins turnaround !)

my Duty Traffic office was first in the QB then by B2 jetty and then under gate A9

[Discorde]

Well done, spekesoftly!

Here are the min noise routings:


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1977x1396/lhr_1969_noise_v2_90926fe39f6b9f2be0e5d6f5b49df9ad2e3bd874.j pg


Couple of interesting points: there are no Standard Instrument Departures (SIDs) promulgated in the AIP, only 'Procedures for Outbound Aircraft', and no reference to this term in the Definitions section. So SIDs must have been introduced after mid-1969 but before early 1972, when they were definitely in effect at LHR. Also there are no departure (or arrival) procedures promulgated for runway 05L/23R. Was this runway already out of service?

[DaveReidUK]

Also there are no departure (or arrival) procedures promulgated for runway 05L/23R. Was this runway already out of service?

This thread (https://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/144918-lhr-old-runways.html) suggests that 05L/23R was closed "around 1970".

Those Minimum Noise Routeings are very similar to today's SIDs, which isn't altogether surprising as the early part of each SID is designated as a Noise Preferential Route and only the Government has the power to change those, but to date hasn't dared to.

[eckhard]

Our BMA Viscounts were often were parked out on a remote stand at LHR on the C's and or the D's
Anyone know the stand number - my memory is a bit short on that one lol

D58? We used to taxi our Citations over from the GAT (between T4 and Fields) to D58 before departing on an international flight i.e. most of the time. There were no customs facilities at the GAT. Our passengers would be bussed out to us by Fields. Same in reverse for international arrivals.

For domestic ops we could depart and arrive directly from the GAT. Passengers could park there too.

[PAXboy]

Only once did I land on #23. It was in a Viscount from IOM. Given that:

I did not start going to the IOM until 1980 or 81.
The Viscounts were used by Manx (the original!) through most of the 1980s
The inagural trip of the Manx 146 G-MIMA was in Dec 1987 (I happened to be on it by chance!)
We can say that #23 was in operation until 'sometime' in the mid 1980s.

[kcockayne]

I well remember seeing (from LATCC car park) a KLM DC8-63 going downwind left hand for 05L. I was at LATCC from 1971 to ‘73 & believe that this was in the winter of ‘72/‘73. Also, I think that SIDS were in operation from EGLL during 1971.

[rog747]

D58? We used to taxi our Citations over from the GAT (between T4 and Fields) to D58 before departing on an international flight i.e. most of the time. There were no customs facilities at the GAT. Our passengers would be bussed out to us by Fields. Same in reverse for international arrivals.

For domestic ops we could depart and arrive directly from the GAT. Passengers could park there too.


Ah thanks D56 rings a bell?

[greybeard]

I was vectored to RW 23 after a missed approach 27L and lightning strike in 1991, seemed it was available but not in normal use.

[DaveReidUK]

A postscript to the discussion on the final closure of 05L/23R - the excellent Bish/Piket history of LHR ATC bundles together the works at the end of the 1960s to prepare for the introduction of the 747.

These included the extension of 10L/28R, the T3 Arrivals building and Pier 7

Pier 7, which I believe was completed by the time Pan Am's 747 services to LHR started in January 1970, lies along the line of the former 15R/33L and would also have necessitated the closure of 05L/23R due to its proximity.

Incidentally, Heathrow's current control tower also lies on the line of the old runway.

I well remember seeing (from LATCC car park) a KLM DC8-63 going downwind left hand for 05L. I was at LATCC from 1971 to ‘73 & believe that this was in the winter of ‘72/‘73. Also, I think that SIDS were in operation from EGLL during 1971.

Perhaps a silly question, but if the KLM was on a LH downwind, could it not equally have been for 05R ?

[Musket90]

I remember 05/23 being resurfaced in 1991/2 period ? It was always interesting to watch when 23 was in use for landing in strong S to SW winds. A few aircraft preferred the longer runway 27L which gave ATC the challenge of trying to work out if separation could be maintained during landing between an arrival on 23 against an arrival on 27L where the headwinds and therefore ground speeds were very different. Also the opening of T4 (April 1986 I believe) and the close proximity of runway 05/23 was not ideal operationally. A week or so before T4 opened runway 05 was in use due strong NE winds and everyone was thinking "I hope this doesn't happen after T4 opens".

[goofer]

Pier 7 may have been completed... but the airbridges weren't! I flew out on a TWA 747 in December 1970 and had to walk to the aircraft and climb an incredibly high set of steps. Ahh, what a great way to board the Queen of the Skies.

[kcockayne]

A postscript to the discussion on the final closure of 05L/23R - the excellent Bish/Piket history of LHR ATC bundles together the works at the end of the 1960s to prepare for the introduction of the 747.

These included the extension of 10L/28R, the T3 Arrivals building and Pier 7

Pier 7, which I believe was completed by the time Pan Am's 747 services to LHR started in January 1970, lies along the line of the former 15R/33L and would also have necessitated the closure of 05L/23R due to its proximity.

Incidentally, Heathrow's current control tower also lies on the line of the old runway.



Perhaps a silly question, but if the KLM was on a LH downwind, could it not equally have been for 05R ?
Yes, Dave, I suppose that it could have been. However, I was on duty that day (in a screaming NE gale) & have a recollection that it was 05L in use. But, it was 49 years ago - I may be wrong !

[Discorde]

LHR inbound routes in 1969:
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1439/lhr_inbound_routes_v2_396224504cca3ce09e6fb06f6923e1dd0086bd b8.jpg

Some interesting points:

- the position of the 'OE' beacon is incorrectly shown as lying between the approach paths of 28L/R; in fact it was aligned with the 28L approach.

- ditto for the 'NE' beacon; it was aligned with the 23L approach

- navigation along Green 1 was difficult - the WOD beacon was displaced south of the centreline and there were no beacons defining the centreline (the Lyneham NDB was also offset) until the airway intercepted a specific Brecon VOR radial to the northeast of Bristol - pilots referred to this point as 'the bend'

- the base of the TMA was only 1500 ft in the WOD area - presumably to cater for the less than sparkling climb performance of some airliner types in those days

[DaveReidUK]

Some interesting points:
- the position of the 'OE' beacon is incorrectly shown as lying between the approach paths of 28L/R; in fact it was aligned with the 28L approach.

IIRC, the OE NDB was co-located with 28L outer marker, on the edge of the Mogden Lane sewage works :O

[Jackjones1]

My Dad used to work for a company called Stanley Hugh Leach who are still going to this day & he used to take me to work with him repairing the runways/taxiways in the late 1950’ early 1960’s & I am sure I was taken on an Avro York which was being broken up somewhere near the Queens building....... ended up as an Aircraft Engineer for a major airline so it certainly started my interest in aircraft.... still remember Heathrow having 4 runways!!
Still we could always build another terminal & another runway!!

[GeeRam]

I used to live under the flightpath of 23L in the 60's through to the end of its use just after 2000 or so, and I don't ever recall seeing anything coming in on what would have been the flightpath into 23R in the 60's, also, this would have taken the a/c close to the Northolt gasholder into 23R, so I also doubt 23R was ever used for landings for some considerable time prior to closure?
So, was it take-offs only on 23R, and landings only on 23L prior to the closure of 23R...?

[dixi188]

On the chart "LHR inbound routes in 1969": the runway layout is drawn much enlarged and hence the NDB beacons don't line up with the runways but are in the correct position in relation to other items on the chart.

[DaveReidUK]

On the chart "LHR inbound routes in 1969": the runway layout is drawn much enlarged and hence the NDB beacons don't line up with the runways but are in the correct position in relation to other items on the chart.

Good point. I guess we're so used to seeing that kind of airfield representation, particularly on VFR charts, that we take it for granted.

10L/28R is about 22,000 feet long according to the scale of the chart. :O

[Discorde]

Good spot dixi! Here's the precise location of the 'OE' NDB*, at the southern end of Redlees park, where as kids we used to play football and tennis. As noted by DRUK the beacon lay just to the east of the Mogden sewage works (whose fragrance we and our neighbours could detect in certain wind conditions).

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1097x647/oe_8b4d137337543d030a16b78f2d692c7ac0c7551f.jpg

*based on coordinates promulgated in UK AIP; accurate to within 30 metres

Amended version of inbound routes:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1439/lhr_inbound_routes_v3_bcb2eddbb5340aa1da103f2c70de66adaf7daa 1b.jpg

[Dockwell]

Ah Redlees Park, Football, planes, Gumley House, Girls, not necessarily in that order :-), was this OE NDB a physical thing ? I don't remember seeing anything out of the ordinary lurking in the bushes back then?

[Discorde]

More snippets from the 1969 LHR AIP:

Pilots wishing to use the maximum possible take-off distance on Runway 28R must notify ATC (Extension 5100) and the London (Heathrow) Airport Constabulary (Extension 7555) 30 minutes before ETD to enable the perimeter road at the end of the clearway to be cleared of traffic.

Runways 28L/R will normally be used in preference to runways 10L/R when the tailwind component is no greater than 5 knots and the runway surface is dry.

When the associated cross-wind component on these main runways exceeds 12 knots, a runway more nearly into wind will normally be used.

When a westerly traffic flow is in operation, there will be a preferential use of 28L for landing and 28R for take-off. Operators should advise ATC in advance when operational considerations prevailing for a particular flight will require 28L for take-off.

Pilots are warned that the relative positions of the gasholders at Southall and South Harrow to Runway 23L at Heathrow and Runway 26 at Northolt, have on occasion caused confusion. The letters "LH" and an arrow pointing to Runway 23L at Heathrow are painted on the gasholder at Southall on its north-east side. The letters on the north-east side of the South Harrow gasholder are "NO" with an arrow pointing to Runway 26 at Northolt. Letters and arrows are in white and 30 feet high.

There is also a description of the Daylight Route Indicator (DRI) to assist pilots taxiing in daytime. Boards were situated adjacent to stop bars and showed correct routing using white lights on a black-and-white diagram of the nearby taxiways. My memory says that this system was withdrawn from service by 1972.

[dixi188]

I remember the Seaboard World DC8-63s using almost all of 28L to get airborne.

[dukiematic]

More snippets from the 1969 LHR AIP:

Pilots wishing to use the maximum possible take-off distance on Runway 28R must notify ATC (Extension 5100) and the London (Heathrow) Airport Constabulary (Extension 7555) 30 minutes before ETD to enable the perimeter road at the end of the clearway to be cleared of traffic.

Runways 28L/R will normally be used in preference to runways 10L/R when the tailwind component is no greater than 5 knots and the runway surface is dry.

When the associated cross-wind component on these main runways exceeds 12 knots, a runway more nearly into wind will normally be used.

When a westerly traffic flow is in operation, there will be a preferential use of 28L for landing and 28R for take-off. Operators should advise ATC in advance when operational considerations prevailing for a particular flight will require 28L for take-off.

Pilots are warned that the relative positions of the gasholders at Southall and South Harrow to Runway 23L at Heathrow and Runway 26 at Northolt, have on occasion caused confusion. The letters "LH" and an arrow pointing to Runway 23L at Heathrow are painted on the gasholder at Southall on its north-east side. The letters on the north-east side of the South Harrow gasholder are "NO" with an arrow pointing to Runway 26 at Northolt. Letters and arrows are in white and 30 feet high.

There is also a description of the Daylight Route Indicator (DRI) to assist pilots taxiing in daytime. Boards were situated adjacent to stop bars and showed correct routing using white lights on a black-and-white diagram of the nearby taxiways. My memory says that this system was withdrawn from service by 1972.

These days they'd need to look out for the Waitrose in South Harrow instead of the gas holder.... Still a source of hot air perhaps?

[DaveReidUK]

These days they'd need to look out for the Waitrose in South Harrow instead of the gas holder.... Still a source of hot air perhaps?

These days attempting to land on what's left of 23L wouldn't be appreciated by Terminal 2 passengers ...

[PAXboy]

It might not be appreciated by HAL either - but just think of all the videos on YouTube and the rest! :ok:

[dukiematic]

Growing up in Northolt I remember the occasional days when I could watch the heavies on finals for 23L from my bedroom window as a spotty 14 year-old. On one occasion I recall a BA 767 flying what looked to be an S pattern around the loc to put a bit of distance in to the one in front on a blustery day of s'westerlies. My airband radio was out of batteries so have no idea to what extent this would have been sanctioned.

Nearly 40 years on I'm at my mum's (dad passed on 3 years ago) for a visit looking out of the same window and reliving the innocence of those years. That included 7 mile bike rides to the airfield on hot Saturdays in the 1980s and whole days moping around the field. That included the smallholdings with chickens between the western ends of the runways where I suspect T5 or at least the car parks now are.

Much has changed. EGLL holds less fascination these days and I wonder whether it is at the start of a prolonged decline what with all the factors emerging from pandemic, market, politics, environment etc.

Thank you for this thread. Although my memories from the 1980s are less glamorous, they are precious to me, and it's a privilege to share them with others with similar remenisces.

[meleagertoo]

Ah Redlees Park, Football, planes, Gumley House, Girls, not necessarily in that order :-), was this OE NDB a physical thing ? I don't remember seeing anything out of the ordinary lurking in the bushes back then?

They do come bigger but an airfield locator (as opposed to an airways NDB) would look much like this.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/512x364/image_22ee8be2d4ebac2e382d10df8bb1bb14eeb67f29.png