What To Know For China

[Black eyed pea]

I am not an expert, but the face of China is changing. everyone now are hiring expeats and some are ok some are decent and some are just awful.

1) the company holds your licence rights, it means that some will make you pass an evaluation , which will be come a valid test for the CAAC and there you go, you belong to them. It can cost you up to 10000$ to get your licence rights back.

2) Search you company well. Your agency will help a bit but should not be a major deal breaker as they are in it for the same reason. Parc is probably one of the best.

3) Once you decied to interview, you pretty much belong to this Airline. very hard now to switch has CVhina is responding to guys failing somewhere and flying somewhere else. The first airline lost face.

4) Having said that, any failure and you are out. If ypou fail your CAAc initial, you can kiss China good by. If you fail your company initial, you can still kiss China good by as they are now sharing information. No one will lose face.

5) When you decide to interview, make sure that you will get hired soon. Once interviewed, you are stuck with your choice good or bad. I talked to some guys from Mexico ( mexicana ) in beijing, half of them were hirted by Capital and the other half wish they did. The other half went for Spring and they have been waiting for just about a year. Impossible for them to swith. Kiss China good by.

6) If you are lucky, you are interviwed and hired rapidly, big smile, big money a week later you fail your medical, fat liver or something, kiss China good by. However, if you fail your medical in beijing ( you have to be an astronaut to pass that one) you may get a chance elsewhere as this is still an accpetable failure. So You could go to shanghai or Chengdu. Different medical different problems.

7) You passed evrything and they suck the blood out of you three or four times and you are good to go. You have to pass the Chinglish written test. Mine had questions like, When pock lock In yu slect hard lever right
true or false? At least that was a 50% chance. some exams have about 20% ofmquestions with no possible answers. therefore you have a possibility of 10 wrong answer and with a bit of luck you nailed 3 to 6 of the pockj luck questions.

8) Line indoc vaires from a few hours ( Capital makes sens) to hundreds of hours ( Spring does not). Basically go for a government owned airline. Much better chance of being treated somewhat kindly.

9) Final test, most airlines is just a normal flight with perhaps a vor approach using normal stuff. I am told that Spring makes you do a fully manual ILS with no F/d no autopilot no autothrust. My God!

10) The more bonus the worst the conditions, look for an airline that pays upfront and just about everything. The lure of the big bonus is appealing but they will do evrything for you to quite before the end of your contract and they know how.

11) You have no recourse, you are on your own, you agent can only send an email or oranges for you in jail.

12) You will always be wrong.

13) If you don't have a choice, I guess China is acceptable, otherwise think about it.

On the plus side, don't tell your wife but there are some pretty girl here and the cost of living is not so bad. Climate is ok except for the lucky ones in Sanya..where it is exceptional.

Most airlines will pay on the money ( except Juneyao) so you wont have to worry about that.

Commuting is usually easy as everyone in the world is doing business with China. Plenty of flights even to Africa.

Good luck guys. I have seen a lot here so far and it is not changing for the best. It will take a major event before it improves...If only I was chinese, I would know everything and be better than all of you!

[JotaJota]

Pretty good points...

The medical is the #1 failure pont in this "choke" screening process.

Maybe #10 is not quite true, at least at BCJ. $12k a year...

And 13, well I still have a job at a Major, but choose this one. As many other pilots here at BCJ, MOST of us have jobs back home. THEY just SUCK!

:ok:

[PROBEUSMC]

Lots of good points, especially the hiring process, which is driven by the CAAC. It is very difficult to get a job in China. For many, I am not sure I would recommend it, unless you have something to return to if it falls thru here.

Once you are here and on line, it doesn't get any better, anywhere. I doubt you will be treated better, by any set of co-workers, anywhere in the world. The cabin staff are outstanding, and the local pilots are good as well. I have seen little if any arrogance, and mostly a far more positive attitude than I have seen at any US carrier, and I have jumpseated on ALL of them, in the cockpit.

You do have to do things their way. They are paying me, so I do it their way. That is expected anywhere, for any job, including flipping burgers at Mickey D's (which I have also done).

I, too, have a 15 year seniority number at a major US carrier. If the pay was the same, I would stay at my job in China. If they told me to come back today or resign, I wouldn't think twice - I would resign my position in the US.

I have also talked to a number of Air China guys a few times. None of them were discussing where to go next.

[Karunch]

Hey Probe, if you asked the Air China guys now you'd get a different answer! Seems their attempt at pilot retention will have the opposite effect.

[dispatchshmoe]

Wish I could find someone hiring a US dispatcher over there - our daughter is from China, and we would love to go back and stay

[WellFrackMe]

Medical - you have NO control over the medical process or the correspondence between the CAAC and your Co.

Bonus - the biggest scam there is! The bonus is only there to provide an interest free loan and a great opportunity for the Airline not to pay the last one owing. Have seen 4 cases in this company already in the last 12 months.

Income Taxes - you can bet the correct income taxes are not being paid in China on your account. We have one former Pilot who sued as his Chinese Accountant proved the correct rate which the Airline, in our case Hainan should be paying is 45%. Where the tax return shows maybe 18%. You are on the hook for the balance with the State Tax Authority.

Agents - are all useless. As said dozens of times before, big talk, cozy support at the beginning and then silence once you are working and especially when you have left awaiting your final payment.

Punishment - there was a listing here a few weeks ago of some of the punishment fines, but the MODS felt for some reason they had to remove the list (I guess because it named several Brokers who advertise here). RMB 500 all the way up to $10,000 for Foreigners.

CHN Airlines - they are all the same. You are front line troops here as Foreigners. You screw up - & you are grounded, abused verbally and in the worst case swept away by the Authorities to be forgotten and locked away (incident/accidents on Chinese soil would be that case).

Insurance - we have been waiting for years for even the name of the insurance company, not to mention the details of support and liabilities for us pilots when flying. Nothing from either the Airline or Brokers.

QAR - excessive QAR monitoring at your expense. A trigger by you, the w/x, or dual inputs from the F/O, you are grounded, no pay and maybe even have to pay for re-training or up to a fine of $10,000.

Downgrading - Have not heard this at Air China, but at Hainan Airlines common practice to have foreigners downgraded with 40% salary reduction. Currently 7 Cps (20%) all together right now on the 737, 767 and 330 fleet.

On-Time Payment - who knows when the airline pays the Agent. The Airline should advise when the transfer was made to us, then the Agent should follow within a few business days. Not the case! If you are late or sick a deduction, but if the Agent or Broker is late nothing in penalties for them.

Acceptable Housing Allowance, Schooling Allowance, Life or Loss of License Insurance, etc - non-existant! If the Agent or Broker tells you otherwise, have it in writing and check the Insurance company for details.

Because so many Foreign Pilots here have kissed Butt (Air China 330 and Capital Jet 320 Fleets excluded) for so long, the Chinese have the upper hand and being a Foreigner just means you are a "paid slave with really no rights", just like at Qatar, Etihad or Emirates! Just as Donald Trump said, the Chinese are out there to rule one way or another and they are just rehearsing with us.
Maybe we Foreigners should act like the Egyptian general populace against these Chinese Airline Managers and Leaders? Shame we are not all wealthy and could then walk out together on the same day - the Chinese airlines would grind to halt here and maybe "they would see the light".

Oh ya - if you do make it thru all the hoops, always have a standby escape ticket, pack lightly as you may have to leave in a hurry. I joke over a beer, following Brad Pitt through Tibet into Nepal or something- oh but that also is now belonging to China.

Notice Period - never think of doing the right thing and give the contractual Notice Period, once you get the last Bonus and monthly pay check - pack up and leave..... I have too many friends who did the Professional thing and lost out here in China! So when my time is up - tick tok tick tok.

Ok not all is bad! But the above does sour even the freshest Chinese milk......

[break_break]

WFM,
Good intention. Though sadly, people will still jump, and whine about it later.

[555orange]

I highly recommend anyone considering working in China... DONT. I suggest everyone just cool your jets and sit tight. Wait and keep your job at home, and let them come to us.. force them to write a clear and fair contract. Force them to do road shows and hire the real agencies to attract the talent. Its not worth the extra few grand to go there. Just dont go guys. Dont let them benefit from us and then let them walk all over us.

If you think "how bad can it be"... most countries in the world have labor laws...China does too, etc. However western people and gov'ts than have not worked there do not understand the culture. Believe it or not, Law there is not based on fairness and protections even at the supreme court level. The country and culture is so bent and predjudiced, that if you challenge anything with the laws, it is ruled that the those laws dont apply to you. But if you screw up, then they do. Its crazy and a double standard. The message: if you get a job offer, look at the contract...and politely tell them you need to make the law of jurisdiction your home country, NOT CHINA. Let them consider that.

Lets be real: its not hard to write a simple easy and mutually beneficial contract. Why do you think they are doing this?

Punishment schemes with pay deductions? Gimme a break. Gee...can I fine the company if they screw up and dont make a
proper profit, or if they screw up and have to change my schedule? I say FU China. Go to hell. Call me back when you grow
up and behave like professionals.

[PPRuNe Towers]

No problem at all with publishing the fines.

Helps make an educated choice when folks like VOR Holdings bombard people like me with job ads and I've never contacted them in my life.

If you want to have the fines up here just do it without publishing the names of each and every sodding captain who got fined or that post will disappear. Which is what the last naive plonker did.

Rob

[390blue]

Living, working, flying, getting along quite well here in China. Is it a pretty big change? YES! Please tell me where it is perfect........(crickets chirping) If you have a current flying job at home I would question why come to China. But, like the expats at the Chinese airline I work at we are all furloughed or the company doesn't exist anymore. Thus it was a pretty easy decision.

Some good points have been made in the previous posts. I guess my first stab at a job here was a lucky one. We are treated very fair here at my airline. A few, somewhat more than minor issues have transpired within the expat group and it was handled with a very light hand. It surprised me. They seem to be very reasonable and if you screw up, a conciliatory tone is the road to take. Don't try to bs your way out of anything. My pay has always been spot on and within a couple of days of when it is suppose to be in the bank.

Bonus's have been paid to everyone that has completed the contract. No one yet has been fined that I know of. The QAR system is a pain in the arse but you learn to live with it. The check rides have been easier than most of what I have had back home but they throw everything at you and you can have multiple failures. Keep it upright, aviate, navigate, communicate, you pass. China is not the place for the type A, anal, "it has to be done this way" person. You have to have the big picture, be patient, flexible, and willing to "bend" a few policies to get the job done. When in Rome............

[mauijim]

390blue,

Sounds pretty good. Which airline do you now work for ?

[JotaJota]

390blue,

I agree with all of your comments! Same impression after being here for two years...

[hongkongfooey]

Strangely nobody mentions the pollution, rather than banging on about it if you are at all interested in not dying of cancer just google it.
Am I a drama queen ??? look at the visibility ( actual, not government figures ) realise that it is poisonous ( sulphur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide, mercury and other fun stuff ) and ask how good that really is for you. I fly in to China on average 4 times a week, so yes, I do know what I am talking about, other than a week or 2 either side of the olympics it has been foul for the 4 years I've been going there.
If you take your kids to china you should be thrown in jail for child abuse, if you want to breath in the equivalent of 10-15 fags a day, go ahead, but don't make that choice for your kids.

Amazing Pictures, Pollution in China | ChinaHush (http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/)

It's a :mad:ing toilet !