Jon Stevens INXS behaviour - Jetstar shines.

[Icarus2001]

INXS singer Jon Stevens ejected from Jetstar flight (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/airline-acted-in-excess-says-exinxs-singer-after-being-ejected-from-jetstar-flight-20110127-1a5q3.html)

Another win for commonsense, respect and people skills.

[Artificial Horizon]

Once again I would be very wary about judging what the real story here is only having seen one side represented. I have had a couple of occassions over the past few months where I have had passengers escorted off my aircraft. I don't give a sh*t who you are, you have to act like a reasonable and responsible adult when onboard an aircraft. I am sick of groundstaff saying to me 'there is a passenger at the gate who is drunk and a bit agressive but we have talked to him and he has promised to be good'. I am sorry but if you can't control yourself to be 'not' drunk at the gate then you are not coming onboard my aircraft. When has it becoming acceptable to be a 'little' bit intoxicated onboard. As for passengers who argue with crew over all sorts of things I also don't have much sympathy, just because air travel has become low cost doesn't give people the right to treat staff like crap. If someone like this 'tool' is causing the crew to devote time to sorting him out then why should the airline carry him, it is not fair on the crew, other passengers etc. He needs to sit where he has been asked, or atleast ask before moving and then don't get all 'uppity' when pulled up on it.:ugh:

[Worrals in the wilds]

I am sick of groundstaff saying to me 'there is a passenger at the gate who is drunk and a bit aggressive but we have talked to him and he has promised to be good'.

Is that still happening? :ugh::ugh:
It was a constant PITA ten years ago, you'd think that at least something could improve in the happy world of aviation.

Message to CS staff; it is a heck of a lot easier to throw an aggressive drunk out of the terminal than it is to skull-drag them kicking and screaming off a full aircraft prior to its departure. I suppose like all of us, CS don't get any support for making firm decisions, so it's easier to volleyball it to someone else than refuse them carriage at check in.

That's not saying Jon Stevens was well or badly behaved, I have no idea. Media reports can be unreliable about this sort of thing.

[GAFA]

If what is said in the article is correct, ie he asked why he couldn't move, they explained to him why and he complied and moved back. If that's what happened then perhaps the cabin crew were a bit over the top.

I've seen (and I've done it) many pax move to spare seats, most times the pax will ask and the cabin crew will say do it once the seat belt sign is off.

[Cypher]

You have to wonder if Cabin Crews were more experienced and maybe "more engaged" at work, would 'small' problems like this escalate to the point that someone gets 'thrown' off the aircraft for 'threatening behaviour'....?

[Butterfield8]

Inexperienced,poorly trained children with attitude and zero life skills
JetStar has them in abundance and there is a growing number in Qantas Mainline.
American style service here we come

[captainrats]

A few years back I was travelling to LAX on the QF11.The charming fellow sitting next to me had his alcohol cut off by a young female flight attendant.In her opinion he had had enough.He had consumed the same amount as me .Two glasses of red wine.No warnings.Nothing.He was not happy.When he asked to see the CSM she told him that he was on a break.The CSM eventually returned and was very apologetic when made aware of the circumstances.Alcohol was reinstated and we never saw the prohibitionist again.The fellow was sixty and the hostie about the age of his grandaughter.Nice bloke who eventually saw the funny side.
While these little dollies may be qute to look at give me a boiler with people skills any day

[QF A330]

My wife is a S/H CSM mainline who has 30+ years service.
She still loves her job and goes to work and comes home with a beaming smile on her face due to her people skills and the folks she works for in the passenger cabin and her crew mates.......................except for the Gen X and Y who yap to each other all of the time, whinge about their rosters IF they turn up to work and when asked what they want to do at the briefing always say "I want to work on the cart with her/him" and think it is the end of the world to have to work up the front. Experience is essential for this job and contrary to the previous posts about the "beehives" they are what made the airline what it was and now amalgamated with the rest of the company is going to lose an asset which is impossible to replace when they retire.
S/H and L/H staff I have met and had the pleasure of their service in many years of travel have been 95% fantastic and the First/ Business crew are a credit to the company.
And there is no way that a pax who the ground staff say "has had a few" will be boarded due to the fact that they are an unknown risk and when they promise to have no more once they are boarded want another drink ASAP.
Safety first.
Not knowing the facts of the thread starter topic we can only hope that it was a logical and rational decision.

[Worrals in the wilds]

And there is no way that a pax who the ground staff say "has had a few" will be boarded due to the fact that they are an unknown risk and when they promise to have no more once they are boarded want another drink ASAP.


Maybe not at Qantas, but when I worked in the terminals it certainly occurred at Virgin, Jetstar, Impulse and with several international carriers on a fairly regular basis (with the international airlines, pax would clear Immigration sober, but then head straight for the departure lounge bar). Impulse famously boarded The Screaming Jets despite their obvious intoxication and then changed their minds halfway through taxi, returned to the bay and chucked them off. I don't know whether it is still a problem.

This is without factoring in the pax who can seem perfectly sober at checkin and then turn into chimpanzees on pushback.

If the younger staff are a problem maybe the airline is not recruiting the right people, or maybe they can no longer attract them. This is certainly the case with the independent ground handling companies infesting the nation's international terminals and ramps. Their management all-stars still haven't figured out the peanut / monkey equation. I agree that the beehives (your term not mine :\) are generally good at handling trouble before it becomes real trouble.

[SIUYA]

QF A330...

And there is no way that a pax who the ground staff say "has had a few" will be boarded due to the fact that they are an unknown risk and when they promise to have no more once they are boarded want another drink ASAP.
Safety first.

Not from my experience I'm afraid. :{

Place: Sydney. Date: Late December 2010. Flight: QF Link DHC-8 to a regional port. Passenger was allowed to board who was so p1ssed that an ultimatum was given to the cabin crew by some passengers that either HE gets off, or WE do. The offender could hardly talk OR walk, and should NEVER have been allowed to board the aircraft in the first place, because he would have obviously represented a known risk to ground staff before as he was being boarded!

Ground staff were eventually called to intervene by the PIC when the pisshead threatened to biff another passenger who'd told him to sit down and behave himself, and he was removed from the flight, much to everyone's relief!

CAs handled the situation brilliantly! :D

[Capt Claret]

Or a port in northern Australia, radio on Co. frequency squarks to life, "argh ABC the last bloke to board's pissed but we reckon he'll be ok". :ugh:

[Cactusjack]

Lucky he didn't 'reach out and touch somebody' !

[Hugh Jarse]

It should be more like "Jon Stevens Noiseworks behaviour". He fronted INXS only briefly from 2002-2004 :yuk:

Yeah, SIUYA. Wish I had a dollar for every time a gutless gate person left it for the cabin crew on my flights to deal with the drunks they let through the gate.

I used to put in internal reports, but in hindsight it probably would've been better just to get CASA involved, as nothing was done about it at a company level. Judging by your post it seems nothing's changed :ugh:

[SIUYA]

Cj..........

Actually, that's what we were all dreading! Being reached by a technicolour yawn! :ooh:

Clarrie............LOL on that one! :O

Actually, best technicolour yawn from a passenger that I have EVER seen was in Bahrain in 1998.............Indian guest worker from Qatar who'd had to do a Visa run up to Bahrain for the day. BIG MISTAKE, because they had a bar at the airport, and as the Indians couldn't get liquor permits in Qatar, this guy took advantage of his day's outing to Bahrain and got REALLY REALLY pissed............so much so that he threw-up on the Bahraini dude who was checking passports as we boarded the aircraft for the flight from Bahrain to Doha!

It was absolutely priceless, and it caused absolute and total chaos! :}

He wasn't allowed to board the aircraft, and for all I know he's probably still in jail in Bahrain!

[Eastmoore]

While most of what said above is true. New CC recruits at Jetstar are trained to the minium and the younger the better seems tobe the recruitment line. Three weeks ground school 15 days or 120 hrs and 4 Days line training. Thats it. With no real world experience doesn' t look good sometimes.

However in the case of this thread the CSM has over 10 years of experience and is a good bloke, he also asked the Captain of 20 plus years of Airline experience of his opinion and options.

No twenty year old making this call.

[Pegasus747]

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 256


(1) A person shall not, while in a state of intoxication, enter any aircraft.


i think this should be the final word on whether someone should be boarded. The real problem is the unrestricted self service of alcohol in the airline lounges prior to boarding which causes the problems at the gate or door of the aircraft

[Icarus2001]

in a state of intoxication
i think this should be the final word

Sounds simple. Could you please define intoxication for us all in thirty words or less.

[eocvictim]

I went with the Collins dictionary definition when I planned a flight to the local winery with family.

[ozbiggles]

Ummm, the guy admitted he decided he would change from his allocated seat on his own accord.
Hard to confirm but the way I read it is he did this after the plane had already taxied as well?
I say good work to the crew.
Its a simply idea really, you sit in the seat your told to. If you can't abide by that then what else is too good for you?

[Pegasus747]

the definition of intoxication is of less a concern to airman than the effects of carrying a person in breach of the regulation.

Unless you have a disability or illness that would explain slurred speech, unsteady on feet, loudness, aggressive, lacking coordination, then you are likely to be intoxicated.

an experienced person should be able to use their skills to determine the difference between someone with a disability and someone that is pissed. An experienced person uses discretion to make this determination so as to avoid causing offence to the person in question.

The law sadly puts the onus on the crew - tech and cabin to ensure as the final line of defence that the CAR's are complied with.

It has been my experience to err on the side of caution and when in doubt perhaps get a second opinion. At the end of the day it is the decision of the PIC if a person is carried.

When i have requested a PIC to offload or deny boarding over my years as crew i have always in every case been supported by the PIC.

in over 20 years as cabin crew I have only needed to deny boarding on 3-4 occasions. In most cases someone that has had a couple of drinks isn't necessarily intoxicated and the PIC will always rely on the support of the Cabin crew and likewise to ensure the security of pax and aircraft.

Sometimes we get it wrong and we miss them at the door and experience is the difference between managing the situation and ensuring all pax and crew travel comfortably and safely or overreacting and cutting of service unnecessarily.

the quantity of alcohol is not always the issue its often the ability of the person to handle it and sometimes its a judgement call on the part of the crew

[Icarus2001]

an experienced person should be able to use their skills to determine the difference
Thank you Pegasus.

As a matter of interest how much training was provided to you by your employer in how to A. assess if someone is intoxicated and B. how to deal with them?

If Jetstar CC undergo a 15 day ground school and four days line training, how much training do they receive in making this judgement?

I ask this because one day you may have to justify a decision you make in court and I believe the lack of training is a major risk for aviation operators.

[Icarus2001]

Mr Citizen I believe that you have summed up the issue nicely. One of those things happened.

However, one thing sticks in my mind. IF Mr Stevens had been a bad boy to such a degree as to be offloaded I would have thought that he would be charged with failing to follow the directions of flight crew. This does not seem to have happened. Which leaves the truth as only known to two people.

[bigbadbazza]

My family and I were passengers on that flight and were seated immediately behind him in the 4th. row. While I have a current dispute with Jetstar in relation to additional charges which I believe were unfairly imposed on us at the airport due to a misunderstanding relating to the flight departure date, the steward involved and his manager on the flight were in my opinion totally justified in their actions.

Jon entered the aircraft just before the door was shut and he and his associate were provided the best seats available on a very crampy plane - row 1.
He sat at the window seat and his friend sat in the aisle seat, the middle seat remaining vacant. The cabin crew seemed to be very accommodating to both of them when they first embarked, and it wasn't until he decided to move to the 2nd. aisle just before the plane began to taxi to the runway that things changed.

The steward then asked him to resume his allocated seat as the plane was about to take off, and he refused. The steward then explained to him that once the take off had been completed and the seat belt signs had been turned off [ which he estimated would take between 5-10 minutes] he was welcome to sit in that seat if he wished but because the pilot had "balanced" the plane he had to resume his allocated seat during take off.
He continued to argue, and finally stood up and went back to the front aisle. He then instructed his friend who was sitting in the aisle seat to move into the window seat. Once he sat down in his friend's seat he continued to argue with the steward. I assume they continued to try and convince him to go back to his seat.
Just as the flight was beginning to taxi to the runway the steward and his manager obviously decided that his attitude [which I believe was confrontational to the point of being considered aggressive] was of concern and they communicated with the pilot.
I assume it was the pilot's decision, not the steward's, to return to the terminal and have him removed from the aircraft.
When the plane returned to the terminal the door was opened and shortly afterwards 3 Qantas security personnel arrived, and they asked him several times to vacate the aircraft, which he refused to do.
They then left the plane, and I assume it was they who requested the assistance of the Federal Police officers, who on arrival eventually convinced him that he had no option but to leave the plane.
His "f%&k you" attitude caused the rest of the passengers a delay of between 1-1.5 hours, so I guess it should be him apologising to the remaining passengers [who incidentally broke out into a very vocal cheer when he left the aircraft] for disrupting their travel plans instead of him expecting [demanding] an apology from Jetstar.

[Capt Kremin]

Thanks BBB. Are you saying though that all he did was move from the window seat to the middle seat in the same row? Or did he move from row one to row two? Your post is a little ambiguous on that point.

[Pegasus747]

crew are trained to look for the symptoms of possible intoxication. For legal reasons we do not suggest or accuse someone of either being drunk or intoxicated as this can only be determined by proper testing.

If you are however displaying signs of intoxication that cannot be explained by something else, then we will refuse service of alcohol as a precaution.

To be quite frank on an aircraft you are legally required to follow the Captains directions. For failing to follow a Captains lawful directions whether you like it or not you can be fined and jailed.

These laws are there for good and cogent reasons and often to protect idiots from themselves.

Rarely do we need to refuse alcohol but when we do the captains word is god on an aircraft. and the cabin crew act with (by law) the delegated authority of the Captain.

If a flight attendant allowed a passenger to conduct themselves in an unruly manner and other passengers complained it would be the crew whose jobs are on the line for breaking the law and allowing an intoxicated passenger to enter an aircraft or serving them further alcohol to the point of intoxication.

All responsible airlines observe responsible service of alcohol.

In terms of the issue of changing seats..... the captain must authorise all seat changes before take off. An aircraft is loading with freight and passengers (SLF) for weight and balance. Whilst it is unlilkey that a single passenger movement on a wide body aircraft would make significant difference to weight and balance, the rules are there for a reason and crew must be obeyed.

I would probably have let this issue go if the pax had moved back to his correct seat even if he had been a bit "mouthy" unless he was swearing etc

I dont take it personally when people get irritated by the rules as i can understand he might have been a little embarrassed as huge egos dont like to be told what to do and usually we are pretty good at massaging those egos.

what you will find however is that on budget carriers there is little place for passengers let alone larger egos and the crew are paid less than a tram conductor and really wont take any crap from anyone. As a jetstar flight attendant said to me recently for 35K a year I am going to do my best to look after them but at the end of the day, we are a budget carrier, if they want 5 star service dont catch a flying bus....

[Icarus2001]

All responsible airlines observe responsible service of alcohol.

Apart from the part about providing free drinking water that is.:=

[MIss Behaviour]

Claret

Or a port in northern Australia, radio on Co. frequency squarks to life, "argh ABC the last bloke to board's pissed but we reckon he'll be ok".


Wasn't PK was it? Was DN now at the Rock. ;)

Quite often CS Staff don't even sight pax if they use web check & have no bags. Some conceal it well at boarding & it may not be until they get onboard that's it's apparent when they sit in the wrong seat etc.

A common scenario is a group of rigpigs or miners arrive in DRW off a Metro from Truscott, Dili or The Granites then proceed to checkin at 1030 sober as a judge but they've got 4 hours to kill before their 1420 flight back to PER. You don't know what they're going to be like by the time the flight starts boarding.

Last night a guy who was thru checked from GOV with 2 bags on DRW/SYD flight was a fail to board. The boys hold all GOV bags to one side & load last as frequently these mining folk lob in DRW then get a cab directly to Shennanigans. When pax was offloaded bags were located quickly & flight off blocks 5 early. :p

An aircraft like the A320 which is containerised is a PITA when you have to locate a bag compared to the 737 or 767 when you can just chuck something in the bulkhold last minute. :ok:

[QueenBuzzzzz]

There's definitely a fine art to RSA. Cutting someone off without warning, telling someone they've "had too much" or worst of all telling someone they're drunk or intoxicated are 3 certain ways to get them offside. If you're at the stage where you have to do the above then you've failed in the S of the RSA. RSA may be a law but it's also a duty of care. Alot of the pax I serve want to have 2 drinks fairly quickly so they can settle down and sleep. You can spot instantly the ones on a mission. Communicate with the other crew, pour floaters, drop off water to them and pace their drinks. Avoid getting to the stage where you have to tell them they can't have more drinks bc you've failed in the alcohol service. They're a captive audience and unless they're drinking their own booze then it should be a controllable situation. ( add sleeping tablets, pre departure drinks, altitude and emotions and it's gets a little more complicated )

[bigbadbazza]

He moved from the window seat in row 1 to the window seat in row 2. After the steward asked him to resume his allocated seat for take-off, he moved back to row 1 but told his friend to move into the window seat and he sat in the aisle seat.

[highland cow]

If the situation was that bad for a decision to be made to offload this PAX then Jetstar has to maintain a firm stand and insist that he be processed through the Courts. You can't have it both ways. These decisions must be challenged by an independent authority. This would then highlight perceived lack of CC training/ experience etc and also make the general public aware of what is the correct protocol for airline travel in relation to conduct and the consumption of alcohol.

[Mr. Hat]

Expecting Singapore Airline Kris Flyer Business Class level flight attendants at J* is a bit much JS. You get what you pay for. They're tired, overworked and make less than teenagers working at macdonalds. Hardly a recipe for diplomacy and one on one counselling when you decide you want a row to yourself.

You pay $49 ala Magda? The rule is : Get in, sit down and shut up. Get used to it Australian traveller.

One cup of cement please.

[Icarus2001]

I agree completely with highland cow. If it bad enough to return to the gate and call the police, then have the person charged and let's see what happened via witness statements etc.

That would help solve the problem of both ratbag passengers and ratbag cabin crew.

[Pegasus747]

at a pub or restaurant if someone is a nuisance you ask them to leave. If they wont you get the police and they ask them to leave.

not everyone gets charged.

disobey a rule on an aircraft and you cant call a bouncer or the police at 40k feet so you just do as your told it's not that hard and the rest of the passengers usually support the crew 150%

Never had a passenger complaint for cutting off the booze or telling a pax to pull their head in, except of course for the punter who gets told is the experience of 90% of my colleagues.

Rule number 1 do what the Captain and crew tell you.
Rule number 2 .. always follow rule number one

Aircraft are not a shop, restaurant or pub.. the rules are there for a reason.

99.9999% of pax travel without problems and the idiots can fly with someone else as i dont want them on my flight or need them. and neither do the rest of our passengers.

[fencehopper]

Had to go to Melbourne a couple of weeks ago, so as i had a bit of extra time i decided to go by train, just for something different. Hey looky no one tried to grab me on the nuts or try to rip me off for my bag being half a kg over weight. Hey i weigh 60 kg, what pax weight is used for W&B? 75/80kg? were's my refund? no one treated me like i'm some sort of potential problem none complained when i moved seats. i watched a movie. was served better food used cleaner facilities. had a nice sleep, and the staff actually smiled and never once told me to turn off my phone. MacBank was no where in sight trying to make a quid out of me for either parking or using a cab. i'll be making time to travel this way again. cabin crew and pilots should remove head from ass.

[Icarus2001]

Fencehopper, that attitude is starting to prevail in Europe too. You can head on down to the platform 10 minutes before departure. Non of this allowing 90 minutes for the BS that is between the front door of the airport and the front door of the aircraft.

Time poor people can actually save time in Europe on high speed trains, that is why they are becoming flavour of the month. Here in this country we cannot agree that a high speed rail between Melbourne and Sydney is a necessity not a luxury. Yes there are hills in the way, especially to go via Canberra but guess what, Europe has mountains not hills and they manage.

It takes about two hours to drive Sydney - Canberra right? So allow a thirty minute drive to the airport followed by a forty five minute check in and a thirty minute flight and ten minutes to get off and get your bag and we a mission time of ...two hours. Only by flying there you have no means of transport at your disposal when you arrive, however you may be better rested.

The harder we keep making the "avaition experience" the more attractive the other options start to look.

[GAFA]

After doing many SYD-CBR I think the time would be more like;

1. 30 min drive to the airport
2. 10 -15 mins to find a car park and walk to check-in.
3. 60 min to check-in, though screening and get to the gate
4. 45 - 60 mins block time (with only 30- 40 mins in the air)
5. 10-15 mins to get off the aircraft and collect bag
6. 5 mins to find a taxi/ hire car
7 15 minds to drive into the city.

Total time: 2hrs 54 mins - 3hrs 18 mins

And this would be on a good day!

High speed train is the way to go if we had one:ugh:

[Icarus2001]

Thanks GAFA for some more realistic times! Looks like the train would not even have to be very fast!

[nitpicker330]

I've driven CB SY city centre to city centre in under 3 hrs including the rest stop of 20 mins.
Really good road, nice BP roadhouse to stop and re fuel yourself.
Get a nice car fitted with cruise control, maybe a rear DVD for the kids, have a good rest before setting off and just drive it. Why bother flying with all the bs it involves and you have your car at the other end too.

[Pegasus747]

I suggest that driving loses its attraction for most of the wankers that complain about air travel because there are no lounges to loll around in getting pissed, no crew to abuse because the view is unsatisfactory etc

Driving has its attractions.... i use the car to get the groceries but i get a cab when i want to have a drink and drinking and driving doesnt really cut it

most FF need a drink on a 50 minute flight so how would they cope without alcohol on a three hour drive??

perhaps they could sit in the back and let the wife drive and pick on the kids for the slack service??

[Mr. Hat]

Some downsides to driving:

Higher chance of getting killed
Equal number of fools on the road as fools at the airport (hmm debatable actually)
Can't snooze and read mag/drink alcohol

Does say alot for the lounges doesn't it. I wonder if lounges of the future might have their own security screening bit like downstairs in ADL. God I love that.

Upside of driving:

No fools from airport
Security pantomime
Check in... err bugger it I could go on all day about just how painful our airports have become.

Fast train beats them all I reckon.

[nicolai]

most FF need a drink on a 50 minute flight so how would they cope without alcohol on a three hour drive??

perhaps they could sit in the back and let the wife drive and pick on the kids for the slack service??

Perhaps the low-cost airline and meatgrinder airport security experience drives them to drink. I know it makes me want one on a bad day.