UK JAA PPL H LASORS and JAR-FCL 2 and queries

[Sid.]

Hello all,

A] I have been reading LASORS 2010 and JAR-FCL 2 subpart C PPL H
Found anomaly in the time frame of completing the theoretical examinations.

JAR-FCL 2 Amendment 3 Documents here JAR-FCL 2 Amendment 3 Documents | Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=175&pagetype=68&gid=1208)

Subpart C here http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Section%201%20Subpart%20C%20-%20Amdt%202%20(JAR-FCL%202).pdf

See LASORS Section C.2.3 JAR-FCL PPL H Theoretical Knowledge Examinations Requirements:
Period of 18 months to complete all of the examinations.
License grant during the 24 months from the date of successfully completing the theory exams.
Note to this section: Full details of the examinations are given in Appendix 1 to the JAR-FCL 2.130 & 2.135.

From subpart C: Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 2.130 & 2.135:
Theoretical Knowledge Examination
Note 5: Successfully completed he Theory exams when awarded a pass in all parts within a period of 12 months.Grant of PPL license during the 24 months from the date of first gaining a pass in any part of examination.

Now, LASORS quotes 18 months whereas Appendix 1 toJAR-FCL 2.130 quotes 12 months for completing the theory exams.

Both do state 24 months but LASORS does not state when does the period of 24 months starts. Appendix to JAR-FCL2.130 is explicit in stating that the very first pass is the date your 24 months period will start.

As in my professional work area whenever two codes conflict the most conservative between them wins, primarily. So in this case I can stick with Appendix 1's timeframe of 12 months and 24 months from the first pass test.

I assume that there must be some lag in updating the Appendix1 as it dates back almost 9 years whereas LASORS is a couple of months old, meaning LASORS stands correct but then I do not want to take a chance on it.

B] Now refer to the Note 1 from same Appendix 1 which details out the 9 theory subjects against their individual time for the examination.
LASORS Section C2.3 gives a list of 7 subjects.
4 subjects from the Appendix are merged as 2 in LASORS.

Does this mean the merged subjects will be tested as one and will have combined time?
I am rather confused by the inconsistiency here. Please enlighten on this matter, members.

C] Can I self study and take theory exams at the local CAA approved FTO without enrolling for the PPL H course at this FTO? (Off course only if the FTO agrees the arrangement).
Or does the self study without enrolling at the FTO for PPL H course means taking tests at the official CAA examination centres only?

In my case it will be Glasgow bi-monthly date from Feb 2011. But having to take those at local FTO (Aberdeen) saves a lot of time+money. Again I will like to know what experienced members have to say on this.

thanks and best regards,
Sid.

[Whirlygig]

In general, LASORS is a UK summary of JAR-FCL. The UK Air Navigation Order is law and therefore overrides JAR-FCL so you will find some differences.

However, that is not to say that LASORS is correct - it is an interpretation of JAR-FCL and the ANO.

(A)12/18 months?

when awarded a pass in all of the above examinations within a
period of 18 months counted from the end of the calendar
month when the applicant first attempted an examination.

an applicant shall be deemed to have successfully completed the theoretical examinations for the PPL(H) when awarded a pass in all parts within a period of 12 months.

So one clock starts ticking when you very first sit a paper (regardless of whether you pass it) and the other, from when you first pass an exam. Therefore, sit the hardest exams first!!!!

(B)In the UK, you will sit 7 exams (plus for helicopter (I hope) a type paper). Air Law and Ops are merged as are Aircraft Gen & PoF. From what I remember, you do get longer time and more question for the two merged papers but, don't sweat the small stuff. They are straightforward, not pressured, and you'll have bags of time.

(C) I think you're getting confused here with the professional exams. Private pilot exams are taken at an FTO or RTF usually to the mutual convenience of the school and you. You can sit them at a different school to the one you wish to fly with but each school should agree the handover of results.

None of this is a big deal and I think you're reading much more into it than it necessary. Pop along to your local school, chat to an instructor, have a trial lesson and decide whethr a PPL(H) is something which you wish to embark upon, then go for it.

I hope that helps.

Cheers

Whirls

[BillieBob]

You are reading the wrong version of JAR-FCL 2. AIC 72/2007 implemented certain provisions of Amendment 4 to JAR-FCL 2, including Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 2.130 and 2.135. Paragraph 5 of the Appendix now reads:

"Subject to any other conditions in JAR–FCL 2, an applicant shall be deemed to have successfully completed the theoretical examinations for the PPL(H) when awarded a pass in all parts within a period of 18 months, counted from the end of the calendar month when the applicant first attempted an examination. A pass in the theoretical knowledge examination will be accepted for the grant of the private pilot licence during the 24 months from the date of successfully completing the examinations (NPA20)."

This is pretty much word-for-word what is in LASORS 2010

[VJW]

18 months to pass them all, 24 months from last pass (to the day) to get licence issued! Oldest pass therefore can

End of!

[Sid.]

Whirls,

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Finally found Amendment 6 to JAR-FCL2 here http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/607096.pdf (http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/607096.pdf)

From Amendment 6:
5 Subject to any other conditions in JAR–FCL 2, an applicant shall be deemed to have successfully
completed the theoretical examinations for the PPL(H) when awarded a pass in all parts within a period of
18 months, counted from the end of the calendar month when the applicant first attempted an
examination. A pass in the theoretical knowledge examination will be accepted for the grant of the private
pilot licence during the 24 months from the date of successfully completing the examinations (NPA20).

I now understand that 18 month clock starts from first attempt whether pass or fail.

But I agree with VJW for the 24 month clock for successfully completing check ride starts after the final theory test pass. Now this is only interpretation as LASORS is not explicit in the statement.

Thanks Billiebob for inciting me to search for current Amendment. I am amused that CAA doesnt host the current Amendments.

Whirls,
I am thinking my local school is my FTO or RTF in the query in paragraph C. I am not sure where to undertake the flying training but like to start theory exams hence the query in relation to local flying school.

Ok I just called up my local school and the manager said they offer PPL H theor 7 exams in house at their facility but for CPL H have to go somewhere else. My intention is to do ground school locally without committing the flying training, in hindsight I am thinking that it may be cheaper if trained a crunch course in Southern USA or other option.

I had a trial lesson with HJS Helicopters in 2007 and liked it. During the lesson CFI said if I had flied before as he was a bit surprised with control, but that was my very first time in life. And I honestly believe that was to ease my fear and make it more joyful. He did let me try ground hover but that wasnt success. And while landing approach he did let me experience autorotation but with engine running. My guts were almost in my mouth. I was terribly nauseatic for next few hours. But that was great experience.

I am only intending for PPL H considering its not practical to do ATPL given my personal circumstances. Therefore half way compromise of PPL H and enjoying flying in reasonably affordable capacity.

Many thanks all for your inputs. Much appreciated.
regards
Sid.

[VJW]

I hope you agree with me, I use to work at the CAA issuing these licences. I also don't see what is so confusing

An applicant shall be deemed to have successfully completed the theoretical examinations for the JAR-FCL PPL(H) when awarded a pass in all of the above examinations within a period of 18 months counted from the end of the calendar month when the applicant first attempted an examination. A pass will be accepted for the grant of a JAR-FCL PPL(H) during the 24 months from the date of successfully completing the theoretical knowledge examinations.

The 24 months isn't for completing the checkride, its for APPLYING TO THE CAA FOR THE GRANT OF THE LICENCE as stated above. If you pass the checkride, and don't apply to CAA within this 24 months, exams expire!

[Whirlygig]

am thinking that it may be cheaper if trained a crunch course in Southern USA or other option.This is where you need to be careful .... if you sit the exams here, and they are JAA exams, you'll need to find a JAA(H) school in the States and there aren't that many. However, you could get an US FAA licence but will then need to ensure your local school will allow you to self fly hire on an FAA licence or you could buy your own N-reg machine.

The US isn't that much cheaper when all costs are taken into account and you may like to consider the local alternative. Firstly, in Scotland, you need to be used to flying when the weather is less than perfect (otherwise you'd never fly), secondly, you'll be taught UK RT and hence will be more comfortable with it and thirdly, how would you feel if your local flying school closed down because it didn't have enough business.

Support your local school and they'll support you. You can learn at a pace to suit you and not be pressured into completing and rushing your flying because you've only got three weeks off work.

Cheers

Whirls

[BillieBob]

I am amused that CAA doesn't host the current Amendments.The UK CAA doesn't host the latest amendments to JAR-FCL because they are subject to copyright and, in any case, it hasn't implemented them yet. The UK has implemented JAR-FCL 1 to Amendment 5 and JAR-FCL 2 to Amendment 3 with some (but not all) of the provisions of Amendment 4 being implemented by AIC. If you are referring to Amendment 6, therefore, you are still reading the wrong document!

The UK CAA's record on the implementation of JAR-FCL has been laughable - at one stage, they were implementing NPAs even before they had been finalised and then finding that, when the amendment was finally incorporated, they had implemented the wrong thing. They will, however, have to implement the latest Amendments to JAR-FCL prior to April 2011 or the adoption of the EASA Implementing Rules will be even more of a joke than their development has already been.

[Sid.]

Thanks VJW,

I now am very much clear on the ground school examinations.

Whirlygig,

I did some crude price comparison and it really doesnt stand a substantial cost saving case. The current exchange rate doesnt help at all. (GBP/USD) The problem I see is 45 horus are minimum required and I am led to believe that average PPL H hours are in the region of 60 to 70. Which pushes the PPL H budget by almost 50% more. Also been told that R22 is twitchy as compared to R44 and hence takes more time in R22 to achieve PPL H when done the training in R44. Have to search on this more.

Thanks for your advise. Much appreciated. About weather and RT I agree with you completely. About supporting local business is true as long as it not only one way deal. I hope you dont disagree on it. I will love to be trained locally.

Thanks Billiebob for pointing out the situation. I am no expert in this so can not comment on it.

Mank thanks,
Sid.

[Whirlygig]

You're right in that the average hours for a PPL(H) are 60-70 hours so look at the price comparisons. Yes, the R22 is a twitchy little fella and if you are of a "substantial" frame, may not suit you at all but, you could afford 80 hours in an R22 compared with around 50 in an R44.

Actually, if you're over 16 stone, you won't be able to fly the R22 due to seat liimitations.

The R44 is a nicer machine to fly but is conserably more expensive. Personally, I recommend learning in a Schweizer but I don't think there are any local to you.

Whatever you decide, have a search on the Rotorheads Forum - you'll find a wealth of information on training there.

Cheers

Whirls

[Sid.]

Whirls,

Thanks for heads up. Luckily I still have room for additional 5 stones to cross the R22 limit. :)

Also now I am programmed to think that if I can learn to fly in R22 then I can fly other helicopters!

best regards
Sid.